[IC] GMK Carbon

[KHAANNN]

Hopefully the massive amount of orders does not mean a decrease in quality control in hopes of just getting the set done on GMK's end.

Sent from my KIW-L24 using Tapatalk

My thoughts also. Was it GMK Hyperfuse that became such a debacle?

GMK TA as far as I know, but even if GMK Carbon experiences the same issues, the result wouldn't be the same, GMK TA was on the edge already

[shangrila500]

Hopefully the massive amount of orders does not mean a decrease in quality control in hopes of just getting the set done on GMK's end.

Sent from my KIW-L24 using Tapatalk

My thoughts also. Was it GMK Hyperfuse that became such a debacle?

GMK TA as far as I know, but even if GMK Carbon experiences the same issues, the result wouldn't be the same, GMK TA was on the edge already

What do you mean when you say it was on the edge already? Had something else happened?

[KHAANNN]

What do you mean when you say it was on the edge already? Had something else happened?

It didn't have any extras (intentional), the colorscheme wasn't one that would satisfy a large group of people (this is not a fault), in my opinion these things amplified the backlash that occurred when the keycaps turned out to be less than perfect - I know keysets with far greater/real issues, yet they didn't experience the same backlash, I'm guessing because the colorschemes were more popular, there were extras, people just ignored these issues and put the caps on and moved on

I will also say that I really admire/respect T0mb3ry, and other similar gb/ic-runners too, who listen the community and improve things with the feedback (rather than seeing GB's only as a way to achieve something they want)

[T0mb3ry]

XPOST from DT

Guten Abend meine Damen und Herren!

If i missed something please reply!


By the way i should get Carbon plastic samples for approval soon. I'll post pictures here as soon as i get them.

[duynguyenle]

XPOST from DT

Guten Abend meine Damen und Herren!

If i missed something please reply!

Show Image

By the way i should get Carbon plastic samples for approval soon. I'll post pictures here as soon as i get them.

Hi Tombery,

I can only speak for ISO-UK, 5 out of 6 UK specific keys are present. The only one that is slightly off is R4 bar/backslash (it replaces the < > key on the German keyboard, right next to ISO Left shift). Maybe if you don't want to add any more keys to the kit, perhaps make the UK legends side-printed? That would be pretty neat, like Ivan's GMK Dolch set where all the UK legends are side-printed to the ANSI keys, so technically it still supports full ISO-UK without having to add the 6 additional alphas (that set only had the extra ISO-Enter, ISO Shift and the bar/backslash key next to ISO Shift)

[T0mb3ry]

Update for iso kit.
Two keys for ISO-DE has been removed since those are already available in the base set. Added missing ISO-UK key (|\).

Hi Tombery,

I can only speak for ISO-UK, 5 out of 6 UK specific keys are present. The only one that is slightly off is R4 bar/backslash (it replaces the < > key on the German keyboard, right next to ISO Left shift). Maybe if you don't want to add any more keys to the kit, perhaps make the UK legends side-printed? That would be pretty neat, like Ivan's GMK Dolch set where all the UK legends are side-printed to the ANSI keys, so technically it still supports full ISO-UK without having to add the 6 additional alphas (that set only had the extra ISO-Enter, ISO Shift and the bar/backslash key next to ISO Shift)

Thank you Please check the update.

[Glod]

Lol,  there are 7 requests on MD already.

20 now

Show Image

Thats me, though i didnt hit request yet

I have been completely off the keyboard community grid for a several months, with some exemptions where i popped in, to save my wallet (its working), but the fact i just missed this awesome looking GMK set with ****ing ergodox modifiers, ****ing hell man that hurts, im very sad

[brighenne]

Lol,  there are 7 requests on MD already.

20 now

Show Image

Thats me, though i didnt hit request yet

I have been completely off the keyboard community grid for a several months, with some exemptions where i popped in, to save my wallet (its working), but the fact i just missed this awesome looking GMK set with ****ing ergodox modifiers, ****ing hell man that hurts, im very sad

Show me what you got.

[Glod]

Disqualified

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

[loud_asian]

Disqualified

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

PM me when it ships, I bought two

[ctrlX]

XPOST from DT

Guten Abend meine Damen und Herren!

If i missed something please reply!

Show Image

By the way i should get Carbon plastic samples for approval soon. I'll post pictures here as soon as i get them.

Is this kit only supposed to be UK and DE?

[T0mb3ry]

XPOST from DT

Guten Abend meine Damen und Herren!

If i missed something please reply!

Show Image

By the way i should get Carbon plastic samples for approval soon. I'll post pictures here as soon as i get them.

Is this kit only supposed to be UK and DE?

Yeah we (Wodan and me) are planning to make a small GB for europe. This kit will inlcude DE and UK iso. Depending on how fast we can get pricing for it, the GB may start next week probably.

[ipreferpie]

I know this can be a stretch, but is anyone interested in running a Dvorak/Colemak kit? Not sure if that's possible if GMK has the molds

[priyadi]

I know this can be a stretch, but is anyone interested in running a Dvorak/Colemak kit? Not sure if that's possible if GMK has the molds

They don't have Dvorak/Colemak molds. And considering MOQ, we are still not there yet, even with Carbon.

With Jukebox, they had 843 base buyers and 23 colemak/dvorak buyers, an almost 1:37 ratio. With 1976, they had 622:22, 1:28 ratio. With Danger Zone they used flat profile (only deep dishes for D/C support) and grouped D/C with Tsangan and got 617:80 or 1:7. With Troubled Minds, they sold 355 base but D/C didn't reach MOQ.

Assuming a very optimistic 1:15 proportion and 150 MOQ, then we require at least 150 *  15 = 2250 participants. The community is simply not big enough yet. The only way I can think to have GMK D/C support is to sneak the keys into a base set, but this is going to be very unpopular.

[KHAANNN]

Good analysis, however, since there are no D/C GMK's yet, you don't factor in the initial burst, I would buy some just to try them out, for example

[T0mb3ry]

Got dem samples for "custom" color plastic.
Keys with GMK are Skidata+. Keys with Q label are the new samples. SA profile keys are Carbon SA colors.
Beige:

Grey:

Orange:


Grey and beige are good and complement each other very well. I love that beige especially. However i couldnt see any difference between "new" orange and the already available V2 color. I've tried to find any difference under different light conditions but i couldn't. It is V2. Now the question is what to do. If i ask for darker Orange color this might delay teh production or i keep that orange color and the people who got skidata may mix and match their keys wtih carbon. Let me know your opinion. Shall we go straight for the darker orange?

Anyway one picture with all three samples together:


There is no light bleed:

Keep in mind during the injection process, there is a possibility for a hollow space between the bars of the legend grid. Those hollow spaces may cause light bleed. So its not 100% guaranteed that there will be no light bleed. Its possible that some keys (out of 1970+ base set were sold multiply with amount of keys of a base set) may get light bleed. So we might see some but in gerneral this should be some exceptional cases.

[KHAANNN]

My eyes literally teared

I mean those alphas ... such beauty

The grey looks sparkling

I usually hate low contrast keycaps, but that orange on grey keycap is so surprisingly legible too

Can't describe how excited I am

As for the oranges, I personally don't have an opinion, as it is, it looks good, as a small suggestion, can you maybe put the orange keycap near the other keycaps, and just change the color dynamics of the orange keycap to the darker orange you want, so it would be easier to compare - or just go for the darker one, I would personally not care much about delays, we are going to wait months anyway

Edit: For example, in the lit photos, the GMK one looks darker than the existing oranges + I regret not going for 4 sets, I would probably run through 3 sets fast

[ndakota79]

Gimme the darker one!

And i love the beige btw 

Here's a photoshop, with just a bit darker and more redtones:



A bit more red still:



original:

[T0mb3ry]

My eyes literally teared

I mean those alphas ... such beauty

The grey looks sparkling

I usually hate low contrast keycaps, but that orange on grey keycap is so surprisingly legible too

Can't describe how excited I am

As for the oranges, I personally don't have an opinion, as it is, it looks good, as a small suggestion, can you maybe put the orange keycap near the other keycaps, and just change the color dynamics of the orange keycap to the darker orange you want, so it would be easier to compare - or just go for the darker one, I would personally not care much about delays, we are going to wait months anyway

Edit: For example, in the lit photos, the GMK one looks darker than the existing oranges + I regret not going for 4 sets, I would probably run through 3 sets fast

Yeah light conditions make pretty significant impact. Later if you get your sets you will strugle with beige since it will "change" its color under different light conditions. But for the orange i can say that the Carbon SA Orange is just darker orange than V2. Not by large amount but its slightly darker and you can see it with a "naked eye" in person.

Just in case, somebody is qurious about all the samples i got. The foto was done in darker light conditions and i've mixed those so you can seehow the colors complement each other.

 

[KHAANNN]

Off topic,

Minor) Does the "s" of "Esc" seems a bit sly, I've compared it to an existing Esc, it might as well be warping from the photo angling too, just something that caught my eye
       -> Suggestion: Some keycaps have slight variations like this, if it indeed exists, it might be a good idea to nudge GMK a bit, from my very limited experience, it makes a change :)

Question) Is the pipe character going to be a single line, like "|", or is it going to be 2 divided lines, like "¦", It would be nice to have "|" if it's not too late

[T0mb3ry]

Off topic,

Minor) Does the "s" of "Esc" seems a bit sly, I've compared it to an existing Esc, it might as well be warping from the photo angling too, just something that caught my eye
       -> Suggestion: Some keycaps have slight variations like this, if it indeed exists, it might be a good idea to nudge GMK a bit, from my very limited experience, it makes a change

Question) Is the pipe character going to be a single line, like "|", or is it going to be 2 divided lines, like "¦", It would be nice to have "|" if it's not too late

In regard of "Esc": I think its only the sample issue. I've compared it with OG cherry and Skidata+. I will point it out for GMK.

About "|" i dont know. In GMK render it is "|". But i can talk to GMK in this regard i think that should be no problem.

[KHAANNN]

Off topic,

Minor) Does the "s" of "Esc" seems a bit sly, I've compared it to an existing Esc, it might as well be warping from the photo angling too, just something that caught my eye
       -> Suggestion: Some keycaps have slight variations like this, if it indeed exists, it might be a good idea to nudge GMK a bit, from my very limited experience, it makes a change

Question) Is the pipe character going to be a single line, like "|", or is it going to be 2 divided lines, like "¦", It would be nice to have "|" if it's not too late

In regard of "Esc": I think its only the sample issue. I've compared it with OG cherry and Skidata+. I will point it out for GMK.

About "|" i dont know. In GMK render it is "|". But i can talk to GMK in this regard i think that should be no problem.

Thanks a lot for the info, it's not a big issue, I just think "|" looks cleaner, plus "|" is the actual character that comes out in most systems, if I'm not mistaken. The Dolch colorway has both versions of the keycaps, just compared them, they both look good, the "|" version is much cleaner, not sure if it's a good thing or a bad thing tho, I personally use the "|\" version

[T0mb3ry]

Off topic,

Minor) Does the "s" of "Esc" seems a bit sly, I've compared it to an existing Esc, it might as well be warping from the photo angling too, just something that caught my eye
       -> Suggestion: Some keycaps have slight variations like this, if it indeed exists, it might be a good idea to nudge GMK a bit, from my very limited experience, it makes a change

Question) Is the pipe character going to be a single line, like "|", or is it going to be 2 divided lines, like "¦", It would be nice to have "|" if it's not too late

In regard of "Esc": I think its only the sample issue. I've compared it with OG cherry and Skidata+. I will point it out for GMK.

About "|" i dont know. In GMK render it is "|". But i can talk to GMK in this regard i think that should be no problem.

Thanks a lot for the info, it's not a big issue, I just think "|" looks cleaner, plus "|" is the actual character that comes out in most systems, if I'm not mistaken. The Dolch colorway has both versions of the keycaps, just compared them, they both look good, the "|" version is much cleaner, not sure if it's a good thing or a bad thing tho, I personally use the "|\" version

Ah sry i mixed something. Well in my renders and in GMKs renders "|" sign is used. "¦" sign is used only in ISO-UK/DE Addon. So i dont need to point it out. The renders are already the way you like it.

So basically if you want to see that you get, look at GMKs render. Though its missing homing bars

[duynguyenle]

Got dem samples for "custom" color plastic.
Keys with GMK are Skidata+. Keys with Q label are the new samples. SA profile keys are Carbon SA colors.
Beige:

Show Image

Grey:

Show Image

Orange:

Show Image

Grey and beige are good and complement each other very well. I love that beige especially. However i couldnt see any difference between "new" orange and the already available V2 color. I've tried to find any difference under different light conditions but i couldn't. It is V2. Now the question is what to do. If i ask for darker Orange color this might delay teh production or i keep that orange color and the people who got skidata may mix and match their keys wtih carbon. Let me know your opinion. Shall we go straight for the darker orange?

Anyway one picture with all three samples together:

Show Image

There is no light bleed:

Show Image

Keep in mind during the injection process, there is a possibility for a hollow space between the bars of the legend grid. Those hollow spaces may cause light bleed. So its not 100% guaranteed that there will be no light bleed. Its possible that some keys (out of 1970+ base set were sold multiply with amount of keys of a base set) may get light bleed. So we might see some but in gerneral this should be some exceptional cases.

It's so beautiful!  :eek:

As for the orange, I think the shade looks fine, should keep it. And thanks for adding the missing UK key!  :thumb: When do we start throwing money at your for the ISO set?

[T0mb3ry]

Got dem samples for "custom" color plastic.
Keys with GMK are Skidata+. Keys with Q label are the new samples. SA profile keys are Carbon SA colors.
Beige:

Show Image

Grey:

Show Image

Orange:

Show Image

Grey and beige are good and complement each other very well. I love that beige especially. However i couldnt see any difference between "new" orange and the already available V2 color. I've tried to find any difference under different light conditions but i couldn't. It is V2. Now the question is what to do. If i ask for darker Orange color this might delay teh production or i keep that orange color and the people who got skidata may mix and match their keys wtih carbon. Let me know your opinion. Shall we go straight for the darker orange?

Anyway one picture with all three samples together:

Show Image

There is no light bleed:

Show Image

Keep in mind during the injection process, there is a possibility for a hollow space between the bars of the legend grid. Those hollow spaces may cause light bleed. So its not 100% guaranteed that there will be no light bleed. Its possible that some keys (out of 1970+ base set were sold multiply with amount of keys of a base set) may get light bleed. So we might see some but in gerneral this should be some exceptional cases.

It's so beautiful!  :eek:

As for the orange, I think the shade looks fine, should keep it. And thanks for adding the missing UK key!  :thumb: When do we start throwing money at your for the ISO set?

I hope the upcoming week already.

[Vadurr]

LOVE that beige! In4 a deeper orange. 

[soilheart]

XPOST from DT

Guten Abend meine Damen und Herren!

If i missed something please reply!

Show Image

By the way i should get Carbon plastic samples for approval soon. I'll post pictures here as soon as i get them.

Is this kit only supposed to be UK and DE?

Yeah we (Wodan and me) are planning to make a small GB for europe. This kit will inlcude DE and UK iso. Depending on how fast we can get pricing for it, the GB may start next week probably.

Me like.
I'm using Swedish layout which is kinda like German layout (see https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=82542.0 for difference between DE and SE layout). So if you'd consider to add some keys to help us Swedes you would make me (and probably some other people happy).

A single "Å"-key would be a really good start and make me join the GB, and everything beyond that would be awesome (if I have counted correctly SE has 8 keys not available in ANSI or German, in which "Å" is the most important, and some keys like "2" is close enough to the UK ISO "2", etc.).

(Feel free to send me a PM if you'd like to discuss this further).

[user 18]

I don't have a problem with the orange as it is. So hyped for this set.

[krisst]

Since this set is designed from the start to be custom colour that matches the Carbon SA. I don't mind waiting if required. Prefer to get the intended product.

As you said, might mix up with skidata, could be a good thing if some people would like to mix and match them. Again, would prefer the deeper orange.

[robotmaxtron]

Since this set is designed from the start to be custom colour that matches the Carbon SA. I don't mind waiting if required. Prefer to get the intended product.

Completely agree. +1 to deeper orange.

[ndakota79]

Color of the new picture I like.

Only you know how it looks rl T0mb3ry.

[salasource]

XPOST from DT

Guten Abend meine Damen und Herren!

If i missed something please reply!

Show Image

By the way i should get Carbon plastic samples for approval soon. I'll post pictures here as soon as i get them.

I'll take one instantly!

[KHAANNN]

I just wonder whether the deeper orange will be readable under low lighting, V2 is ~ already, but since we are not talking about radical changes in toneage, I guess it doesn't matter much

It's not that anyone is going to read modifier legends, yet when your eyes glare, they automatically adjust, and it's painful if they can't, at least it's the case for me

I have some GMK Charcoal's that suffer from this issue significantly, but I'm guessing it's partially because some of the dark base mixed into the legends in that run, let's hope they make Carbon perfect

[ctrlX]

XPOST from DT

Guten Abend meine Damen und Herren!

If i missed something please reply!

Show Image

By the way i should get Carbon plastic samples for approval soon. I'll post pictures here as soon as i get them.

Is this kit only supposed to be UK and DE?

Yeah we (Wodan and me) are planning to make a small GB for europe. This kit will inlcude DE and UK iso. Depending on how fast we can get pricing for it, the GB may start next week probably.

Me like.
I'm using Swedish layout which is kinda like German layout (see https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=82542.0 for difference between DE and SE layout). So if you'd consider to add some keys to help us Swedes you would make me (and probably some other people happy).

A single "Å"-key would be a really good start and make me join the GB, and everything beyond that would be awesome (if I have counted correctly SE has 8 keys not available in ANSI or German, in which "Å" is the most important, and some keys like "2" is close enough to the UK ISO "2", etc.).

(Feel free to send me a PM if you'd like to discuss this further).

+1

I'd buy a set if SE keys are added.

[T0mb3ry]

Me like.
I'm using Swedish layout which is kinda like German layout (see https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=82542.0 for difference between DE and SE layout). So if you'd consider to add some keys to help us Swedes you would make me (and probably some other people happy).

A single "Å"-key would be a really good start and make me join the GB, and everything beyond that would be awesome (if I have counted correctly SE has 8 keys not available in ANSI or German, in which "Å" is the most important, and some keys like "2" is close enough to the UK ISO "2", etc.).

(Feel free to send me a PM if you'd like to discuss this further).

There were already requests for swe layout....

Now this is experimental. I'll ask for pricing but i do not promise this will be included into GB. There are reasons for it. First thats already 46 keys. Thats a lot and might cost also a lot. Second reason is we dont know igf gmk has all the molds/legends available. Probably new molds will be required. Thus will sky rocket the pricing and that will be unacceptable. As i said i'll ask but its not guaranteed to be included into gb.


By the way that spacy "Q" key from the samples. I thought all the time i've seen that Q somewhere and i got it. Its the "uniqey" keyboard from gmk
https://uniqey.net/

[duynguyenle]

Me like.
I'm using Swedish layout which is kinda like German layout (see https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=82542.0 for difference between DE and SE layout). So if you'd consider to add some keys to help us Swedes you would make me (and probably some other people happy).

A single "Å"-key would be a really good start and make me join the GB, and everything beyond that would be awesome (if I have counted correctly SE has 8 keys not available in ANSI or German, in which "Å" is the most important, and some keys like "2" is close enough to the UK ISO "2", etc.).

(Feel free to send me a PM if you'd like to discuss this further).

There were already requests for swe layout....

Now this is experimental. I'll ask for pricing but i do not promise this will be included into GB. There are reasons for it. First thats already 46 keys. Thats a lot and might cost also a lot. Second reason is we dont know igf gmk has all the molds/legends available. Probably new molds will be required. Thus will sky rocket the pricing and that will be unacceptable. As i said i'll ask but its not guaranteed to be included into gb.

Show Image

By the way that spacy "Q" key from the samples. I thought all the time i've seen that Q somewhere and i got it. Its the "uniqey" keyboard from gmk :)
https://uniqey.net/

I had a look at the Uniqey boards a few months ago when they were hyping it. I like where GMK is going with this, seeing as they allow for tons of customisation (kinda like WASD but for Europe, and much better keycap quality). Shame the keyboards themselves kinda look like turd from the side, what's with that rounded profile, looks like a banana!

If only they hired a better team for their industrial design...

[soilheart]

There were already requests for swe layout....

Now this is experimental. I'll ask for pricing but i do not promise this will be included into GB. There are reasons for it. First thats already 46 keys. Thats a lot and might cost also a lot. Second reason is we dont know igf gmk has all the molds/legends available. Probably new molds will be required. Thus will sky rocket the pricing and that will be unacceptable. As i said i'll ask but its not guaranteed to be included into gb.

Show Image

By the way that spacy "Q" key from the samples. I thought all the time i've seen that Q somewhere and i got it. Its the "uniqey" keyboard from gmk :)
https://uniqey.net/

As I noted, an "Å"-key would be awesome to start with. Anything requiring new custom molds I'd say is not worth it. I would also gauge interest before adding Danish as I haven't seen many DK users here (or anywhere else), I guess LeandreN will be happy about NO though so I won't argue against that =P

EDIT: Personally I find these keys most vital: [Å], [+?\] ([+?] is also fine), [^¨~] and [*'].

[SevenU]

I'm down for deeper orange no matter the wait.

Sent from my KIW-L24 using Tapatalk

[finalarcadia]

My vote is for deeper orange. Let's get that perfect carbon set made.

[T0mb3ry]

The voices are loud and clear we go for deeper orange  Hope GMK's plastic supplier can provide this.

[nugglets]

I can't say I would be hugely disappointed if the orange stayed as-is, but I think it would be preferable to most if it were properly matched. I have some V2 in front of me and it's OK, but something darker would look better IMO. In your original post it sounds like you weren't happy with it, so don't compromise. You're the only one who can really see it and we've trusted you so far =)

The other two colors look fantastic, though. I'm really impressed with the matching on those.

Just to be 100% certain on the light bleed, you should test them under a white LED in a dark room. It looks like they did a great job with that, too, but better to be on the safe side. =)

Thanks for posting those shots and overall just doing everything you can to make this drop a success. The fact that you have continually taken the community input to heart and acted upon it is really awesome!

[rondg]

The voices are loud and clear we go for deeper orange  Hope GMK's plastic supplier can provide this.

Late to the game but I agree with the deeper orange. 

[fax668]

One more vote for the SE keys.

[finalarcadia]

Hey I'm planning to order a b.mini to use this winkeyless layout.
I have some question about the GMK keycaps stem. I assume the stepped caps lock uses an off center stem.
But what about the 7u spacebar? Should I order it centered or off-center? Does it matter?
What about OG cherry caps, are they centered or off centered for 7u spacebars?

[ideus]

Show Image

Hey I'm planning to order a b.mini to use this winkeyless layout.
I have some question about the GMK keycaps stem. I assume the stepped caps lock uses an off center stem.
But what about the 7u spacebar? Should I order it centered or off-center? Does it matter?
What about OG cherry caps, are they centered or off centered for 7u spacebars?

The two 7u OG Cherry key caps I have are centered stem.

[shower_king]

beige and grey are both OK and keep them as they are , i just want the orange more darker and intense , than will match well with ligher grey,

[Jaceun]

Add me to the chorus of people for a deeper orange! Looks to be an amazing set on the way for us, I am tremendously excited!

[priyadi]

Grey and beige are good and complement each other very well. I love that beige especially. However i couldnt see any difference between "new" orange and the already available V2 color. I've tried to find any difference under different light conditions but i couldn't. It is V2. Now the question is what to do. If i ask for darker Orange color this might delay teh production or i keep that orange color and the people who got skidata may mix and match their keys wtih carbon. Let me know your opinion. Shall we go straight for the darker orange?

As a Skidata+ user, I already have the orange keys. So I prefer deeper orange, as deep as possible, to differentiate from these Skidata mods. Time is no problem for me. If carbon is going with standard V2, then I will end up with 2 sets of orange mods. That would suck, even if legend color is a little different.

Btw, I haven't seen that Q legend before. Do they have molds in that font to cover the entire alphas?

[kawasaki161]

Btw, I haven't seen that Q legend before. Do they have molds in that font to cover the entire alphas?

The Q legend is just the Uniqey logo, I doubt they have anything other than the Q in that font.

[shower_king]

Btw, I haven't seen that Q legend before. Do they have molds in that font to cover the entire alphas?

The Q legend is just the Uniqey logo, I doubt they have anything other than the Q in that font.

i am definitely sure that GMK have the mould for that. since that key exsit in skidata

sorry for my misunderstanding
The Q in capital also has a mould in 1×R1 and 1×，1.25 × R4 In GMK ,but now there is no keycap in a fullset as a novel keycap .and this will come soon.
This is the first time to see Q in reality for tombery to fix the exact color for carbon.