Simple Questions, Simple Answers (FAQ in the OP)

[TheFlyingRaccoon]

How far is a pcb from the case/ backplate. Also is a pcb such as the phantom/ gh60 mounted with aluminum standoffs like these?   

[Photekq]

How far is a pcb from the case/ backplate. Also is a pcb such as the phantom/ gh60 mounted with aluminum standoffs like these?   

Show Image

Phantom is plate mount only. Gh60 can be pcb mount, plate mount or a mix of the two. I don't think there is an answer to your first question since the spacing will be different for every pcb/case. Which pcb and case did you have in mind?

[TheFlyingRaccoon]

How far is a pcb from the case/ backplate. Also is a pcb such as the phantom/ gh60 mounted with aluminum standoffs like these?   

Show Image

Phantom is plate mount only. Gh60 can be pcb mount, plate mount or a mix of the two. I don't think there is an answer to your first question since the spacing will be different for every pcb/case. Which pcb and case did you have in mind?

First of all this is for a custom gh60 case. I was going to mount the pcb to the backplate and the plate would be attached to the pcb via the switches. I was going to just go with 1/4" aluminum spacers to attach the pcb to the case, but I'm not sure if there is a set distance.

[Photekq]

How far is a pcb from the case/ backplate. Also is a pcb such as the phantom/ gh60 mounted with aluminum standoffs like these?   

Show Image

Phantom is plate mount only. Gh60 can be pcb mount, plate mount or a mix of the two. I don't think there is an answer to your first question since the spacing will be different for every pcb/case. Which pcb and case did you have in mind?

First of all this is for a custom gh60 case. I was going to mount the pcb to the backplate and the plate would be attached to the pcb via the switches. I was going to just go with 1/4" aluminum spacers to attach the pcb to the case, but I'm not sure if there is a set distance.

That defeats the whole point of a plate mount, mate! You attach the plate to the case with screws or w/e, and then the switches hold the pcb in place. There's no need for the PCB to be attached to the case in any way if you're using a plate mount.

Also, what kind of a case do you have in mind?

[TheFlyingRaccoon]

How far is a pcb from the case/ backplate. Also is a pcb such as the phantom/ gh60 mounted with aluminum standoffs like these?   

Show Image

Phantom is plate mount only. Gh60 can be pcb mount, plate mount or a mix of the two. I don't think there is an answer to your first question since the spacing will be different for every pcb/case. Which pcb and case did you have in mind?

First of all this is for a custom gh60 case. I was going to mount the pcb to the backplate and the plate would be attached to the pcb via the switches. I was going to just go with 1/4" aluminum spacers to attach the pcb to the case, but I'm not sure if there is a set distance.

That defeats the whole point of a plate mount, mate! You attach the plate to the case with screws or w/e, and then the switches hold the pcb in place. There's no need for the PCB to be attached to the case in any way if you're using a plate mount.

Well that clears a whole lot up! Thanks. My question still remains though, how far should the pcb be from the case.

[Photekq]

Well that clears a whole lot up! Thanks. My question still remains though, how far should the pcb be from the case.

Since you're doing plate mounting you won't need to worry about how far the pcb is from the base, but instead how far the plate is. Cherry spec says the top face of the plate is 0.33in from the bottom of the pins, although you should leave a little bit of leeway. A 10mm or 0.4in distance from the top of the plate and the base of the case should be fine.

You can also use the cherry spec to work out how far the pcb should be aswell.

[TheFlyingRaccoon]

Well that clears a whole lot up! Thanks. My question still remains though, how far should the pcb be from the case.

Since you're doing plate mounting you won't need to worry about how far the pcb is from the base, but instead how far the plate is. Cherry spec says the top face of the plate is 0.33in from the bottom of the pins, although you should leave a little bit of leeway. A 10mm or 0.4in distance from the top of the plate and the base of the case should be fine.

You can also use the cherry spec to work out how far the pcb should be aswell.

Ok thanks. I have the the pcb and plate drawn out in CAD, I'm good there, I just needed to know what the spacing was.

[Dubsgalore]

Any updates on the CPTDubs Case? 

[Photekq]

Any updates on the CPTDubs Case? 

What is this CPTDubs case you speak of? 

[CPTBadAss]

Any updates on the CPTDubs Case? 

Any updates on the CPTDubs Case? 

What is this CPTDubs case you speak of? 

A joke we had in the IRC. We want to make a 60% case that looks like the Duck Poker. Nothing serious. Don't worry Photekq, I still will fully support your case

[linziyi]

Question: does aftermarket key caps feels different from stocked key caps?

[CPTBadAss]

Question: does aftermarket key caps feels different from stocked key caps?

Which aftermarket keycaps and which stock keycaps? That's a very broad and generic question. There's many different materials and profiles that both stock and aftermarket caps have. Please be a little more specific.

[F u r u y á]

Question: does aftermarket key caps feels different from stocked key caps?

Yes. Especially if they're made of different materials. For example, if stock keycaps is ABS plastic and aftermarket keycaps is PBT, you'll definetly perceive the difference.


ps: ninja'ed

[CPTBadAss]

My Leopold has stock PBT caps with Leopold OEM profile. And I can get aftermarket ABS caps, I just bought some from the GMK buy, which are Cherry Doubleshots. So the answer you gave isn't incorrect, but it doesn't really give a good picture. Different profiles and materials will feel different for each person. "Stock" and "aftermarket" caps doesn't really describe caps all that well.

[F u r u y á]

I think you are being a bit too nitpicky, you know very well that the most popular keyboards (QFR for example) comes with ABS OEM profile, and I think he wants know if there is a difference given that other variables remains constant (of course he will feel difference from OEM profile to, say, spherical!)

Or maybe he just wants to know what are the types of aftermarket keycaps but asked in a funny way.

[linziyi]

Let's say the caps from a $100 keyboard like QFR

[F u r u y á]

See

[linziyi]

I heard (rather, read) that there is "double-shot" and others, aside from better build quality, do they actually feel different?

[F u r u y á]

Yes they do, I already answered that (double-shot is ABS, and as I said ABS feels different from PBT).

You can read lots of info in that subject here and here.

[CPTBadAss]

I think you are being a bit too nitpicky, you know very well that the most popular keyboards (QFR for example) comes with ABS OEM profile, and I think he wants know if there is a difference given that other variables remains constant (of course he will feel difference from OEM profile to, say, spherical!)

Or maybe he just wants to know what are the types of aftermarket keycaps but asked in a funny way.

I don't assume here. I just wanted for him to clarify his question so I could give a proper opinion. Don't tell me what you think I know, I'm not a mind reader.

Let's say the caps from a $100 keyboard like QFR

If the QFR caps are anything like the Blackwidow I had, then the Filco caps felt pretty similar to the Blackwidow caps. Thin ABS but I believe the caps were pad printed. If I compare my stock Filco caps to my Cherry Imsto caps, the profile and material both feel different. The Filco caps feel thin and the Cherry Imsto caps are thick and smooth. If we compared my stock Leopold caps to the Cherry Imsto, the only difference is the profile. The Leopold caps are very flat.

[linziyi]

Thank you both very much!

[F u r u y á]

You're welcome.

[Photekq]

A joke we had in the IRC. We want to make a 60% case that looks like the Duck Poker. Nothing serious. Don't worry Photekq, I still will fully support your case

If you make a 60% case that looks like a Duck Poker then I'll buy it, especially with the name 'CPTDubs'

[CPTBadAss]

A joke we had in the IRC. We want to make a 60% case that looks like the Duck Poker. Nothing serious. Don't worry Photekq, I still will fully support your case

If you make a 60% case that looks like a Duck Poker then I'll buy it, especially with the name 'CPTDubs'

You think my engineering skills are good? That's nothing compared to my name-giving skills!

[metalliqaz]

Well that clears a whole lot up! Thanks. My question still remains though, how far should the pcb be from the case.

Since you're doing plate mounting you won't need to worry about how far the pcb is from the base, but instead how far the plate is. Cherry spec says the top face of the plate is 0.33in from the bottom of the pins, although you should leave a little bit of leeway. A 10mm or 0.4in distance from the top of the plate and the base of the case should be fine.

You can also use the cherry spec to work out how far the pcb should be aswell.

I prefer to snug it up closer.  I like 5/16 inches or 8 mm.  Although it depends on where you're measuring from.  From the TOP of the plate I'd probably do 3/8 inch or 1cm

EDIT: just reread photekq's works.  Nevermind.  Just remember to take into account if you have soldered parts attached to the PCB.  I had to add a cutout for the USB connector.

[amishmansteve]

Quick one: I have a blue LED backlit QuickfireTK. If I threw a white gasmask keycap on it would the blue shine through the eyes?

[CPTBadAss]

Don't think so. Think the Ivory GasMask caps are solid. Unlike the Black ones which seem to have translucent eyes which would allow light to come through.

[esoomenona]

The Black ones had painted colored eyes, in green and red. The white ones were just completely white.

[CPTBadAss]

Thanks moose, I always thought they were translucent like those Ducky novelty caps. So I guess neither GasMask caps will allow light to shine through the eyes amishmansteve.

[amishmansteve]

Thanks for the help!

[Melvang]

Can buckling spring switches be plate mounted?  Or on a related note in regard to the mod this is planned for are there any MX switches that are close to or exceed BS switches in tactility and noise?

[jdcarpe]

Can buckling spring switches be plate mounted?  Or on a related note in regard to the mod this is planned for are there any MX switches that are close to or exceed BS switches in tactility and noise?

Buckling spring switches are mounted in a barrel plate. They are not self-contained, like an MX or Alps switch. They are a spring inside a barrel.

And no, not really. In the same way that Topre switches don't feel like any kind of MX switch, neither do buckling springs. They have a feel all their own.

[fohat.digs]

Can buckling spring switches be plate mounted?  Or on a related note in regard to the mod this is planned for are there any MX switches that are close to or exceed BS switches in tactility and noise?

A long debate could be mounted on what component(s) of buckling spring keyboards are "switches" since they are so different.

The capacitive switches of the F are definitely "mounted" on a plate, if you can call them mounted, since they lie flat, and the membranes of the M are not "mounted" at all, but they are sandwiched between plates. After you have taken these beasts apart, you realize that the buckling spring parts are just causing the "hammers" to bounce down and make some connection between other components. Cherries have stems/legs/plungers/whatever that actuate something at the bottom, but IBM "switches" are not self-contained in some sort of body or housing.

So, to answer the above question realistically, let's just say that buckling springs are not switches at all, in the usual sense.

The secondary question, what other switches are most similar to buckling springs, well, I won't touch THAT.

Same thing that jdcarpe said, but more long-winded.

[linziyi]

Is that true that greens most closely reassembles the blucking  spring in terms of feels and we eights? What's missing from greens compare to blucking  springs?

[metalliqaz]

Is that true that greens most closely reassembles the blucking  spring in terms of feels and we eights? What's missing from greens compare to blucking  springs?

Read that on Slashdot?  I don't think they feel much like buckling springs at all.

[Melvang]

Alright thanks guys.  But I guess I am asking the wrong question for the info I am looking for.  Can a BS switch be installed by itself to be used as a momentary switch?  The intended use is going to be a keyboard mounted power switch but be hard wired to the PC so I don't have to mess with firmware.  Or would this task be better suited for a plate mount MX switch?  With the way I want to design the case it will be sitting above the PCB.  If this would be possible does anyone know if there was a cap for BS switches that have the power logo on it?

[nubbinator]

Alright thanks guys.  But I guess I am asking the wrong question for the info I am looking for.  Can a BS switch be installed by itself to be used as a momentary switch?  The intended use is going to be a keyboard mounted power switch but be hard wired to the PC so I don't have to mess with firmware.  Or would this task be better suited for a plate mount MX switch?  With the way I want to design the case it will be sitting above the PCB.  If this would be possible does anyone know if there was a cap for BS switches that have the power logo on it?

No since you'd need the capacitive sheet under it.  If you can find one and attach leads to the sheet it might work, but an MX or Alps switch would be much easier.  And if you want a nice power logo switch for Cherry, check out Qwerkeys.

[Larken]

Alright thanks guys.  But I guess I am asking the wrong question for the info I am looking for.  Can a BS switch be installed by itself to be used as a momentary switch?  The intended use is going to be a keyboard mounted power switch but be hard wired to the PC so I don't have to mess with firmware.  Or would this task be better suited for a plate mount MX switch?  With the way I want to design the case it will be sitting above the PCB.  If this would be possible does anyone know if there was a cap for BS switches that have the power logo on it?

Not gonna say its impossible, but its probably very complicated. The way BS works is that when the spring buckles, I quote from wikipedia:

"the hammer is pivoted forward by the spring and strikes an electrical contact which registers the key press. In a Model M, the electrical contact is a membrane sheet similar to that of a modern dome switch keyboard. On the older Model F design, a capacitive contact was used instead."

the buckling spring in model ms is an actual mechanism that is used to strike a membrane sheet, unlike the electrical contacts in a cherry mx switch.

if you look at the third image in this thread http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=9761.0

you'd see that the mechanism is housed in a 'barrel' that is part of the entire plate for the keyboard. It might be possible to replicate that for a single button (using 3d printing perhaps?) but I imagine that's a lot of work, not to mention you'd still have to figure out how to substitute the actuation part using a pcb instead of the usual membrane switch (not actually sure how the model F works), but I think with just the hammer mechanism, if you're looking to replicate it on the usual pcbboards, you would be basically redesigning the whole switch.

I'm no expert, but that's my take on the question.

[Melvang]

Sounds good I think then I will scrap the whole BS power switch then.  So in response to that what is the heaviest, most tactile switch that I can hope to acquire from a Cherry MX variant?

[Larken]

if you're looking for a click, stock switches would be either green or whites (whites have a softer click). extra note: greens and blues have the same stems, just different springs.

If you're looking for tactile, non clicking, mx light greys.

There's also the korean springs rated at 80g if you can get them to mod any of the above, but I haven't had any experience with those to tell you if they're actually heavier.

[Melvang]

if you're looking for a click, stock switches would be either green or whites (whites have a softer click). extra note: greens and blues have the same stems, just different springs.

If you're looking for tactile, non clicking, mx light greys.

There's also the korean springs rated at 80g if you can get them to mod any of the above, but I haven't had any experience with those to tell you if they're actually heavier.

Thanks a lot for the info Larken.  If anyone has both which is louder the greens or the blues? 

Now another question for the same project.  I am looking for a switch (not a keyboard switch) preferable rotary style that I can have 2 inputs an select which one goes out to another seperate switch for each input.  For the physical positions for the switch i would prefer Momentary - Off - Momentary but On - Off - On would do.   If I am not explaining this right please let me know.

[CPTBadAss]

The Blues have a higher pitched click but the Greens are "clickier". I think the Blues are louder.

And I'm not sure about the momentary switches.

[Melvang]

Thanks CPT.  If i can't find a single rotary type switch I guess I will find a couple rotary style momentary switches and just put them next to each other.

[CPTBadAss]

Well let's see if anyone smarter than me comments.    And you're welcome ^__^

[jdcarpe]

Now another question for the same project.  I am looking for a switch (not a keyboard switch) preferable rotary style that I can have 2 inputs an select which one goes out to another seperate switch for each input.  For the physical positions for the switch i would prefer Momentary - Off - Momentary but On - Off - On would do.   If I am not explaining this right please let me know.

I guess I don't understand how the switch is supposed to work...

[Spokoman]

How large of an investment is it to make ergo-clears?

I have tested the clears and the browns. The force to press of the clears is a bit too much for me. The browns... they're fine, but now I get why people say it feels as if there was some dirt stuck in there. The clears don't have that which is nice. So are ergo-clears a happy medium?

[Larken]

I have no idea if this is what you mean, but its worth a shot.

http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Electronics,_pickups/Components:_Switches_and_knobs/Rotary_Switches.html?tab=Pictures

no idea how you're gonna use that on a keyboard, or even what you plan to do with it. but I'm definitely looking forward to it.

[jdcarpe]

How large of an investment is it to make ergo-clears?

I have tested the clears and the browns. The force to press of the clears is a bit too much for me. The browns... they're fine, but now I get why people say it feels as if there was some dirt stuck in there. The clears don't have that which is nice. So are ergo-clears a happy medium?

It depends on a couple factors.

• Do you have clear stems and light springs (from browns, blues, reds)? It appears you do.
• Does your keyboard have a plate? If so, you will have to desolder the switches to open them. That is quite an investment, if you only want to try them.

To some people, they are a happy medium. Others prefer stock clears. It's just personal preference.

[Larken]

How large of an investment is it to make ergo-clears?

I have tested the clears and the browns. The force to press of the clears is a bit too much for me. The browns... they're fine, but now I get why people say it feels as if there was some dirt stuck in there. The clears don't have that which is nice. So are ergo-clears a happy medium?

it's actually a larger chunk of dirt stuck inside with the ergoclears, depending on how you see it. Wouldn't call it a happy medium but a whole new experience. You'd likely have to try it to find out if you like it, but I personally love lubed ergoclears, even considering the amount of work needed to do it.

you'd need to be able to open up your switches. with the boards in your signature, you'd have to desolder the entire board, swap the springs in, lube it (highly recommended if you're going to take the trouble to do ergoclears), and solder everything back in. all in all you'd need to invest in some tools and source for the springs, unless you approach one of the modders around here in geekhack to do the job for you, for a fee, in which case you'd just need to source for the parts required.

[CPTBadAss]

How large of an investment is it to make ergo-clears?

I have tested the clears and the browns. The force to press of the clears is a bit too much for me. The browns... they're fine, but now I get why people say it feels as if there was some dirt stuck in there. The clears don't have that which is nice. So are ergo-clears a happy medium?

On paper ergo-clears sounded great to me. In actuality, ergo-clears felt like Browns to me and they tend to jam. Like you press down on the keys and they stay in the down position. I prefer stock Clears and despise Browns. And I've tried ergo-clears on Hashbaz's Universal Switch Tester as well as i3oilermaker's QFR. You can also check my Wiki page in my signature for more in-depth thoughts on switches. And what do you mean by "investment"? Time or money?

Edit: listen to Jdcarpe. I'm not actually sure how much the time investment is. Plus he's got that Vulcan knowledge