Topre rubber dome stiffening

[limmy]

Well, like I said luckily I have LOTS of RipOmeter results on rubber domes disputing your single observation.  Rubber domes arrive stiff.  then loosen up over time.

That's the beauty of using a WW tool that only depends on spare change and gravity.

Rubber domes loosening up over time? I tried to find the information in your collection of measurements, but I couldn't find it. Also in my experience, they become harder to press in one to two year period. I have not used any RD keyboard over three years except my HHKB, and it was because the keyboards got very stiff to use comfortably. (part of it would be increased friction though)

But still your statement that your RF measures the same is wrong. Please stop saying that unless you have new measurement that says otherwise. You are a bad scientist who cannot correctly read measurements.

[limmy]

All of which are opposite to what you have been saying all along.

To summarize:
1. Topre actuation force increases over time. Instead of staying the same like you have been saying countless times.
2. Rubber dome stiffen over time in other boards. Instead of loosening up over time.

Hopefully, you will not say your Realforce measures the same again.

Thanks for checking back on the data though.

Tested my ESC key.  60g.

50g for A key that I modified. 40g for nonmodified ]} key

All 5g higher from...
http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:5697&viewfull=1&page=6&do=comments#post94820


And indeed some Rubber Dome measurement ACTIVATION FORCE (corroded/contaminated membrane contacts is also an issue here).

http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?31228-Ripster-s-Guide-To-Peak-Force-Measurements-For-Rubberdome-Mech-Scissor-keyboards


Lol.

[laffindude]

I wonder if barrel/plunger wear or dried up lube could be making the key presses heavier?

[limmy]

I wonder if barrel/plunger wear or dried up lube could be making the key presses heavier?

It is possible that wear of lube may have played some role in ripster's case. However, I doubt the lube alone can increase the actuation force by 5g.

My measurements here are taken after applying top of the line lube(RO-59 + Krytox GPL100), and it still show increased actuation force. The lube helped reduce actuation force, but the amount of reduced force was relatively little.

Also, ripster's current measurement is using dithering method which practically bypasses static friction. (He is vibrating the board slightly by tapping on his desk hence moving the slider slightly.)

[limmy]

Finally ripster agrees.

I really hope Topre (or any other vendor) supplies the rubber domes. For 300 dollar keyboard, I think owners should be able to maintain worn and aging parts.

Besides, Topre's patent is long over due (capacitive related patent was filed in 1984 and a patent is good for 20 years after filing date) and I wonder why there isn't any clone products. Maybe it is not so straight forward to write firmware that detects capacitance.

However, for someone who is willing to shell out 300+ dollars, I think the rubber aging (hence change in typing feel over time and/or use) is surely a deterrent. Rubber aging problem is well accepted in Korean forums and I think it is primary reason why Topre owners are migrating to Cherry boards after some time and reason why new users are hesitant to make purchasing decision, putting the high price of the boards aside.

I wonder why there is so much doubt and nit picking in GH though. I am guessing it is either because of post purchase rationalization or lack of users who experienced the Topre board long enough.

[Squelos]

So, your saying Topre boards are crap, because the rubber doesnt age well ?
This is going to kill the topre legend if it is true.

Ill see for myself  in a year or two I believe. But dashing out 300+ dollars for a board that only lasts a few years is ... expensive.

[limmy]

So, your saying Topre boards are crap, because the rubber doesnt age well ?
This is going to kill the topre legend if it is true.

Ill see for myself  in a year or two I believe. But dashing out 300+ dollars for a board that only lasts a few years is ... expensive.

I didn't say they are crap, but I said the typing experience noticeably change over time. I can say this for sure because I have been using same HHKB for 5 years and I begin to feel discomfort after two or three years of daily use. Most of discomfort went away after proper lubrication, but actuation force didn't come down to normal level. As seen in my measurements here, some keys require 65g and they are far off the original specification of 45g. The problem here is that an owner can do NOTHING to mitigate this issue. (Some suggests punching hole on the rubber domes, but the mod is destructive hence very risky if anything goes wrong.)

I am suggesting Topre supply necessary parts so that Topre boards can be used for longer period of time.

I like Topre boards. As a matter of fact I own two Topre boards: HHKB and 87U. I just want my investments to last longer.

[Squelos]

Well some people use keys that have 65g actuation force. That seems to heavy for me, but it is regrettable to see that such expensive keyboards dont last all that long. If i do start feeling my domes getting harder, ill ripometer them.
I think my keyboard is a year old, and it measures about just right : 45g.

I dont think we can even hope to see replacement domes for our keyboards

Edit : I imagine you wore out your keycaps before starting to feel the rubber harden ? Or does it simply harden over time, and not by use ? Because from the measurements I see, the use of the keys seem to affect a lot the hardening.

[mkawa]

wait, so you're telling me if i keep using my board for a few years it will get better?!?! yesssss

[Squelos]

Well getting heavier isnt actually all that good IMO.
Plus, you may loose some tactile feedback or something like that. Im not really afraid of the increased actuation force, but im quite concernerd by the feel of the keys.


I'd like to have some feedback concerning these issues. People here are bound to have topre boards that have been under heavy use for a long number of years.

[limmy]

Well getting heavier isnt actually all that good IMO.
Plus, you may loose some tactile feedback or something like that. Im not really afraid of the increased actuation force, but im quite concernerd by the feel of the keys.

I'd like to have some feedback concerning these issues. People here are bound to have topre boards that have been under heavy use for a long number of years.

In my case, tactile feedback increased as actuation force increased. I compared side by side like-new HHKB and five-year-old-daily-used HHKB and the older one had more tactile feedback. If you see the numbers in my measurements, on average difference is only 7g(see here). But the difference in feel was day and night to me. The peak force is only one facet of the whole picture and it isn't enough to describe the difference in feel. The new HHKB was much easier to press, had less tactile feedback, and more nimble. ripster didn't compare the old and new RF at the same time, so the comparison is only relying on memory in distance past, which is never a good idea when comparing difference in feel.

But the word is, after even more use and when rubber begin to lose elasticity it begins to feel mushy. However, it didn't happen to me using the board for five years. In contrast, my brand new variable RF could be called mushy compared to my five-year-old HHKB. In very old Topre boards, however, it seems to be the case; mushy and almost linear feel. Search for "linear" in this deskthority thread.

[limmy]

Don't get too excited about that agree thing.  I'm saying it MIGHT be stiffening a tad, almost imperceptible, due to natural rubber hardening.  I don't really think it's due to use.  It's never used as hard as my other keyboards.

"Finally ripster agrees" rather means
Finally he is correctly reading his own measurements and he came to senses and correctly do subtraction 52-45=7 or 50-45=5 instead of 52-45=0 or 50-45=0!

It is rather a relief that a person was mistaken then corrected than excitement if you ask me.

The on-average measurement difference between the two HHKBs was only 7g. But they felt very different. I even swapped the rubber domes and the swapped rubber dome felt about the same, so the friction and other issues was relatively minor. We should acknowledge that the peak force describes only one side of multi-facet picture and never the whole picture.

[limmy]

Well some people use keys that have 65g actuation force. That seems to heavy for me, but it is regrettable to see that such expensive keyboards dont last all that long. If i do start feeling my domes getting harder, ill ripometer them.
I think my keyboard is a year old, and it measures about just right : 45g.

I dont think we can even hope to see replacement domes for our keyboards

Edit : I imagine you wore out your keycaps before starting to feel the rubber harden ? Or does it simply harden over time, and not by use ? Because from the measurements I see, the use of the keys seem to affect a lot the hardening.

I too think Topre wouldn't supply rubber domes unless this rubber dome issue is affecting their sales. One can hope for it and ask for it though.

I do not have any experience of rubber dome stiffening when not used, since I only had one HHKB until recently. But seeing the ripster's case, it seems storing it and not using it does not prevent rubber aging.

Here are some photos of my key caps after 5 years. I type lightly and do not apply a lot of force when I type. I put some microfinishing film and UHMW tape on the keys for some grip and extra nub, but later took them out. The gold metal sticker seen on K key were bought from a group buy left over at KBDMania. Although photo seems to suggest it is a little different from the original font, it is 99% the same. The black edges you see are shadows created by the stickers.

The photos were originally posted at http://www.kbdmania.net/xe/3510267

side by side
[ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 50826[/ATTACH]

shot at the angle which reflected most light. Two photos are shot at the same angle.
[ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 50827[/ATTACH] [ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 50830[/ATTACH]

crop of K key
[ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 50828[/ATTACH] [ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 50829[/ATTACH]


The key caps are one of many things I like about Topre boards. Some wear out PBT caps and make then shiny, but in my case it is in pretty decent shape despite 5 years of daily use. It is not good as new, but very much usable and not ugly. It is slightly more slippery compared to new caps because little texture wore off a bit. At one point, the caps were shinier than as seen in the photo, but after a good wash some of the matte feel came back.

[Squelos]

Oh yeah, the texture hold out pretty well.
At least we know that the caps are good...

People with "worn out" topre's should try asking for the rubber domes.
Even if you could get them for like 50€, that would be great. From Topre's point of view, it would kinda solve the issue... But then maybe the sliders themselves would start dying on you, which would mean replacing the whole board.

Edit :  when you say five years of daily use, is that at home or at work ?
I find I tend to wear out keyboards and keycaps quite fast. Rubber domes usually start going within 3months, and keycaps start getting shiny withing a 1/2 months also, if they are ABS.
I also manage to shine the case around the arrow keys, because I use them a lot, and kinda mess around with it with my other unoccupied fingers.

[Squelos]

Yeah, it is weird that the spacebar isnt any more worn than that. Because it is ABS, and therefore does wear out pretty fast. I can see mine is starting to shine already, after only a month.

And I only use it at home.
When does the aging start to be noticeable ? after 2 years ?

[Squelos]

Yeah but people are saying that the feel then becomes linear. Which isnt good at all for a keyboard that costs 300$.
and 5g is a noticeable difference for fingers.

[mkawa]

MM is referring to this post on vintage topres that limmy linked:

http://deskthority.net/photos-videos-f8/sony-news-keyboards-t1262.html

however, these are talking about vintage topre switches of indeterminate design. were they always linear? was it really age and usage that turned them from tactile to linear? WE MAY NEVER KNOW. in the same post, limmy feels that aging has made his topres more tactile.

so who knows? probably the only thing we do know is that topre switches continue working despite heavy aging lol

[Squelos]

Yeah, but as said before, continue working despite heavy aging just isnt good enough for a 300$ keyboard. My Rubber dome keyboards that cost like 20$ still continue working after heavy aging. Not well, but they still work.


Airline use and banking use for a keyboard ? I wouldnt qualify that as heavy use. Not even close to it. Type in a few numbers, and thats all. Nope, that not even close to heavy use.

[limmy]

People with "worn out" topre's should try asking for the rubber domes.
Even if you could get them for like 50€, that would be great. From Topre's point of view, it would kinda solve the issue... But then maybe the sliders themselves would start dying on you, which would mean replacing the whole board.

Edit :  when you say five years of daily use, is that at home or at work ?
I find I tend to wear out keyboards and keycaps quite fast. Rubber domes usually start going within 3months, and keycaps start getting shiny withing a 1/2 months also, if they are ABS.
I also manage to shine the case around the arrow keys, because I use them a lot, and kinda mess around with it with my other unoccupied fingers.

Yes, it would be great to have the rubber dome available. People have asked but didn't get favorable answer from Topre. I heard that they replace the rubber sheet within warranty period if something is wrong with the sheet.

First two years I used at home. And last three years I used it at work. I do not type that much.

Yeah, it is weird that the spacebar isnt any more worn than that. Because it is ABS, and therefore does wear out pretty fast. I can see mine is starting to shine already, after only a month.

And I only use it at home.
When does the aging start to be noticeable ? after 2 years ?

Lubricant related issues began to bother me after 2 year. The capslock sized control key of HHKB wasn't responding very well if I press the key on the edges. After lubrication I didn't feel much discomfort besides increased actuation force. Later I purchased like-new HHKB and compare it side by side, and I noticed the difference right away. That is when I tried to measure the peak force and post the OP.

You probably wouldn't notice the change in feel if you use it daily. It is like a frog in heated water. You get accustomed to the gradual change and do not notice the change until the change goes over critical threshold.

so who knows? probably the only thing we do know is that topre switches continue working despite heavy aging lol

They continue to work, but I would expect more from a $300 keyboard. I would expect them to have consistent feel over time or at least an owner should be able to do maintenance. Cheap rubber domes certainly work for many years but the reason they are not preferred is that they are not durable and the performance is inconsistent over time. In this regard, I hear Cherry switches are far more consistent, although I don't really prefer the force profile of the Cherry MX switches.

[mkawa]

the one thing you can't expect from a 300$ keyboard is for it to defy the laws of physics. you're buying a product with rubber in it, rubber that undergoes a large number of deformations in its lifetime, in addition to natural aging effects. a keyboard with rubber in it is going to feel different after you've bashed on it a few million times than when it's first manufactured. sure, it would be nice if there were a repair/refreshing service, but honestly for the cost of sending it back to japan to be rebuilt, you can probably just buy a new one.

[limmy]

Unscrew couple dozens of screws, you can replace the rubber dome yourself. No need to send back.

Yes, the law of physics still applies to everything. Mercedes wears out just as much as Ford. I think one of the reasons Mercedes is able to ask premium is their durability and reliability over time. When we pay premium, we expect delayed aging as much as possible and if that is not possible spare parts.

It is a pity that someone (r******) was not willing to admit the rubber ages for quite some time even though his own measurement said they have.

[mkawa]

actually (and note before you queue up your image macros, ripster, that this is nothing personal) but the hooke's law approximation of elasticity is probably the worst analogy you could come up with, because that's exactly what we're pointing out is broken in the real world. what i am saying is specifically that one can't say "oh, this rubber dome is exactly this elastic when you cast it in this shape from the date it's manufactured to the end of time". in reality, we can approximate its behavior as a simple linearly describable spring only for small slices of time, both in terms of its age and in terms of its deformation.

re: luxury items. it's actually typical for luxury items to be manufactured so that they are higher performance but have a shorter lifetime (which is typically the trade-off for high performance in the engineering world). the standard car example of this is ferrari products, which you can actually price in the double-digits per mile driven. now, i agree that this is a little odd to say about topre domes, because one of their advertising points is the switch longevity, but tbf they are demonstrating exactly what they claim -- much better uniformity and precision out of the gate, and smaller variation 5-10 years into their usable lifetime _than standard rubber domes_

[smknjoe]

Mechnazims.

Unfortunate typo.

Technically, rubber dome springs and metal springs are both mechanical. It's just that different materials are used for the spring. It does seem that metal would prove to be a more resilient and reliable product over a long period of time.  

http://iopscience.iop.org/0960-1317/7/3/017

Does anyone have a really old Topre to compare? Maybe 8-10+ years old?

Edit: I assumed you weren't literally referring to the typo. If you were then please disregard. I get the feeling you already have.

[urbanus]

Technically, rubber dome springs and metal springs are both mechanical.

Your definition reaches too far, because it goes outside what people normally mean when they say "mechanical".

If you want to stretch the definition to an extreme, every keyboard is mechanical because every keyboard contains some kind of mechanism by which it registers keystrokes.  But now you see the problem?  If every keyboard is mechanical, then isn't the word "mechanical" redundant?  Shouldn't we then just say "keyboard".

Language doesn't exist in some realm of Platonian idealised forms.  Words have meaning only for those that use them to exchange meaning among each other.  And when we say "mechanical" we don't mean rubber dome.  Defining the word differently according to your own criteria isn't going to change that.

[Jim66]

Your definition reaches too far, because it goes outside what people normally mean when they say "mechanical".

If you want to stretch the definition to an extreme, every keyboard is mechanical because every keyboard contains some kind of mechanism by which it registers keystrokes.  But now you see the problem?  If every keyboard is mechanical, then isn't the word "mechanical" redundant?  Shouldn't we then just say "keyboard".

Language doesn't exist in some realm of Platonian idealised forms.  Words have meaning only for those that use them to exchange meaning among each other.  And when we say "mechanical" we don't mean rubber dome.  Defining the word differently according to your own criteria isn't going to change that.

Jesus, we've gone from inferential statistics to linguistic relativity, if we carry on like this we'll all get to make use of our undergrad.

In other news, I bought a 3 month old HHKB; it feels "meh."

[urbanus]

In other news, I bought a 3 month old HHKB; it feels "meh."

Is that "meh" in imperial or metric?

[Jim66]

It's a metric "meh"; always metric.

[smknjoe]

Urbanus, I'm not putting my own "twist" on the definition of mechanical. RDs, and most keyboards, fall neatly under the definition of mechanical. I just find it fascinating that most people adamantly deny that RDs are mechanical, but they accept Topres as mechanical. Shouldn't most RDs just be labeled as a "cheap" or undesirable subset of mechanicals? I guess it's hard to get people to accept that after a whole "mech keyboard" industry has been built on the very selective definition that is widely accepted (here.)

OT - does anyone have an old Topre to examine for decay? It would be neat to see what they are like at the ten year mark.

[smknjoe]

Come on Rip! Although it was a serious observation I was expecting a little banter. I'll leave it alone since it can be a sensitive issue.

My next purchase will definitely be a Topre so I can see what all the fuss is about. I'll Ripometer for sure.

[urbanus]

RDs, and most keyboards, fall neatly under the definition of mechanical.

Which ones don't?

Given that rubber dome keyboards basically involve mashing two sheets of rubber together -- and we classify that as "mechanical" now, apparently -- I thought I'd do a bit of research.  (Keyboard science! Woo!)  So I did a Google image search for "rubber machine" to see what I could find.  I made sure the wife wasn't looking first.  I worry about Google image searches -- especially those involving words such as "rubber".

The results were mostly off-topic (like this post, actually).  Apparently they have thousands of different types of machine for making rubber products.  Machines that are made out of rubber are in shorter supply it seems.

One image was most intriguing: a "rubber machine" being a woman (I am given to understand from the high heels, but maybe that's a false assumption) wearing a rubber suit with tubes coming out all over the place.  One large rubber tube emerged from the posterior of the suit, which for a costume that I suppose was intended to be fantastic/futuristic I found to be both pragmatic and amusing at the same time.

Anyway, in relaying all this information to you I fear that I may not have convinced you of much; but at least then I would have returned the favour!

[mkawa]

any device that converts a mechanical impulse (keypress) to an electrical impulse (electrical switch) is going to be an (electro-)mechanical device, just by definition. as ripster said, we use the phrase "mechanical keyboard" to refer to such devices that do not require the key to bottom out for the switch to actuate.

[smknjoe]

I Ripometered my new HHKB Pro 2:

Left Alt 55g (11 nickels)
Right Alt 50g (10 nickels)
Right bracket 45g (9 nickels)

This a very nice rubber dome keyboard and surprisingly quiet if you don't bottom out hard. I have a hard time understanding what makes them cost $300.00 though.

[limmy]

See.  It's a bit high even out of the factory.

I think Limmy's theory needs more experimentation before it is Wiki worthy.

My RustOmeter results took a full year.
http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?31197-Ripster-s-Testing-Of-Switch-Corrosion-Resistance-The-RipOruster!

More data is always welcome!

If you followed this thread carefully(which I doubt), you would have known there were more than couple of HHKBs that have higher actuation force out of factory. (I am not sure if this finding is general though.)

See my comments on
Fossala's measurements (see here)
Aranair's measurements (see here)

However, my RF measures pretty close to the original specification, same as your RF two years ago. We know your RF measures 5g more (may be more) compared to the measurements done two years ago.

[limmy]

I follow your every post Limmy!

What's happening with the Gold Springs?

http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?28350-Extra-Curly-Fries-Type-62

Please stay on topic. Why do you have to go off topic? How hard is to stay on topic? Because of your off-topic posts and repetitive meaningless posts, this thread is becoming way longer than it is supposed to be.

If you want to discuss Cherry MX springs with me, you can leave your comments here. I am going to get my hands on some of 55g, 62g max-force custom springs so once I get them I will generate some measurements and do a comparison for ya. Obviously, no one denied Hooke's law you love. It is all about the spring coefficient and the initial load inside the switch. I don't know why you say what you say about the Hooke's law and Korean springs.

[AuRinBei]

Whoa, what? Resurrecting a thread here. I recently got an FC660C. I found this thread after I got it, and I've noticed that there is barely any talk on the subject of Topre uniformity and aging. Considering that these boards cost on average above $200, I think this is very strange. I noticed pretty much immediately that the keys on my board did not have uniform weights, so I took measurements. Here are links to them:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/h171fptww5rq9nb/FC660C%20key%20weights.xlsx

https://mega.co.nz/#!BRZVFaLQ!JbjqClcwQ3l9J9_yU1nMCUSldf9YT0emf16uNR2Nt_g

There is (or rather was, about 20 days ago when I got the thing) a 20g difference between the heaviest and lightest keys. That's pretty damn noticeable. The right side of the keyboard is also, on the whole, lighter than the left. The lighter keys are also, as one might expect, less tactile than the heavier keys. This is especially annoying with the "I" key. It is the lightest of the letter keys, and even though it's about the same as some of the ones around it, I can still feel a difference. It definitely has the softest bump of all the keys, even softer than the lighter Insert key. It's sometimes like I'm typing on  browns, and then all of a sudden I hit a red. It's a little distracting. To be honest, even though I love the layout of the board, and the feel of Topre on the whole (both the lighter and heavier switches) the uniformity is pretty damn pathetic. The left and right sheets of cups under the letters are clearly from different batches that did not come out the same, and the modifier keys are kind of all over the place. I also measured my ducky, and everything came out within 5g, between 42.5g and 47.5g. I also measured a Lenovo rubber dome keyboard at work, and while the weight tolerance was looser with a 10g difference, it was still better than my FC660C. And I guarantee that board didn't cost $190. I know that all the keys fall withing the +-15g specification for Topre switches, but still, come on. There is a 20g difference between them, and the average is nowhere near 45g.

So anyway, I plan to measure my FC660C again in a months time to see if the switches have loosened up. I think they have, but I might just be getting more used to them. It would be nice if other people measured their boards too, so we can get more data on this.

[therecorder]

Might help if you could explain how you measured the force so that other people could do the same.

[AuRinBei]

Good old Ripometer. Take a bunch of nickles and pennies, stack them on the keys. You might have to prop the board up at different angles to keep the coins level.

[therecorder]

And, using Ripster's method, you were able to precisely measure all keys on various boards to 0.5 grams?

[AuRinBei]

What do you want me to say? I used pennies and nickles. Pennies weigh 2.5, nickels weigh 5. Is it accurate withing .5g? No, but I would say that it is probably accurate to 2.5. I can't make sure that the coins were pressing down exactly the same way on each key (F and J especially), but I measured each key multiple times and they always actuated within a penny.

[therecorder]

Not doubting you...  Just that I have a FC660C, and I really don't feel the differences that you do.  I'm in Israel, so I can't do the penny and nickel thing, but perhaps, when I have the time, I'll try some Israeli coins, although I don't know their weights, so it would only be a general comparison.

[AuRinBei]

You could use shekels and, if you have them, agora.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_new_shekel

[therecorder]

There are 10 and 50 agarot coins, but they are too large to fit on individual keycaps.  However, the problem is the weight of Israel coins.  I just managed to balance 10, 1 shekel coins (= 13/16") on a key, and it didn't actuate, and adding any more is really a very difficult balancing act.

*** EDITED ***

As you can see on the chart that contains the weights of the Israeli coins, there is no available Israeli coin that weighs less than 4 g (Last column shows those coins that are "Current").  So, actuation force would be very approximate.  But, when I have some time, I will check out the FC660C and let you know what I find.

[AuRinBei]

Awesome, thanks. I think it would be easier for you than it was for me, since the coins you are using are smaller than nickles, and I usually had to stack 10 or more nickels. Just make sure nothing is touching the sides of the other keys, because that will throw the measurements off.

[davkol]

Why not try the method webwit uses?

[AuRinBei]

I will definitely try to do more precise measurements next time, but I don't have an electronic scale right now.

[keymaster]

I'm not really sold on this idea of the rubber dome stiffening solely because of first-hand experience with a few rubber dome keyboards that are 10-15 years old.

If anything, the membrane switches have softened up over the years, particularly the frequently used keys such as 'A'. The 'A' key is much softer on this old IBM rubber dome than the ` key.

[AuRinBei]

Update on my 660C.

I RMAed it with EK, and got a new one back. Right off the bat, there is a huge difference between this one and the last one. The left side of the keyboard is now pretty much the same as the right in terms of weight, and they both feel closer to 45g all around. The arrow keys feel lighter (like most people say they do). Overall, it just feels lighter and more uniform. A and J feel a bit lighter than the other keys around them, but they don’t feel as different as the I on the last board. I will do another nickel test in 2 weeks (gives it time to break in, and also I don’t have time right now), but this board already feels completely different. I’m pretty sure the last board was basically a 55+g board on one side. My left hand was getting tired much faster than my right, which doesn’t seem to be happening anymore. The conclusions I am drawing from this and my conversations with other people are that 1: Topre just doesn’t have anywhere near the control over the weight of their switches that Cherry does, and 2: The last board was still probably a fluke in how poorly weighted it was.

[keymaster]

It's probably a fluke/isolated incident. If it wasn't, we'd be hearing about it all over the forum from many users.

[Danule]

Anyone else notice that topre switches are noticeably stiffer when colder?  In the morning my keyboard is much more tactile and stiff than after typing on it for half an hour.

[PointyFox]

Anyone else notice that topre switches are noticeably stiffer when colder?  In the morning my keyboard is much more tactile and stiff than after typing on it for half an hour.

Rubber becomes stiffer when warmer.  Maybe your fingers are stiffer when colder