Author Topic: Just got my hhkb pro2, @250$ the last zero was clearly a typo  (Read 20784 times)

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Offline GenEric35

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Just got my hhkb pro2, @250$ the last zero was clearly a typo
« on: Tue, 22 December 2009, 10:31:03 »
EDIT:  3 weeks in now, can't say I master the alternate layout it, it's a blank version so there's no reference just slow progress


EDIT: 4 weeks in, I found out there are 3 levels of adjustments, flat was too flat, and big feet was too angled, then I see there is a small foot inside the bit foot? small foot is win, this is a feature I wasn't aware of, an extra feature, imma bump my subjective appreciation rating from 6.5 to 7/10.

EDIT: 1 Month in, for some reason the keys started feeling more comfortable, probably what is referred to as good feeling of oneness with cup rubber.
I guess the keyboard grow on me as time went by and I'll keep it.
My current position on it is it cost a lot, too much, at this price PFU should bundle it with key puller, roof, wrist rest and carrying case, or sell it the same price as the good mechanical keyboards.


yup, just like all the rubber dome keyboard, you can press the key until the dome collapse and give you a 'tactile' feedback, then release the key without it registering anything, very likely the price was set by someone typing on a HHKB Pro2, and typed 250$ instead of 25$

first impressions,
1-double the price of the best mechanical boards. And 10 to 20 times! the price of it's close cousin rubber dome boards
EDIT: After staying away from mechanical keyboards and using a rubber dome keyboard at work as opposed to mechanical, the difference between cheap rubber and good rubber becomes more obvious.


2-has half the keys, 60 switches instead of 104, they can make 2 keyboards for the price of one

3-dip switches that allow you to reassign 3 pre-detemined keys(can't assign fn the right alt and right meta key only?), out of your 60 keys... using dip switches? 3 keys only?  give that engineer a noble prize.

4-almost no tactile feedback, rubber dome, there is no way to know your key registered, just like a rubber dome you have to trust that it will register, and just like a rubber dome you can press it and make the dome collapse without the key press registering, i can release the key after the dome collapsing and the key has not registered, it has all the flaws of a rubber dome, any of my buckling spring board will register every time, the tactile bump, the click sound, the key registering, all the at the exact same time. The HHKB Pro 2 is not a board i would rely my or someone's money on(missing a zero, or adding an extra one in data entry), setting an administrator password, wouldn't trust this in any medical or aeronautical application, so what's left, I wouldn't trust it for anything, maybe hobby computing, if it's not anything close to serious, which leaves good for writing forum posts, emails and chat.  

EDIT: haven't had any misshaps with typos, if a typing test can be considered a practical example, my missrate improved, i make 4% errors in typing tests, an improvement from the 5-6% constant missrate i had with other my other keyboards

5-alternate layout for arrows, end and page up keys,
someone coded autohotkey for free(give him and script contributors a medal of honor) it might not be embedded in the board, but those keys are the last ones that could benefit from a 1 microsecond improvement.

EDIT: autohotkey had limitations when i used remote desktop and vmware, with other keyboards i had to reload the script each time i open a session, while the hhkb dosent have that problem


My current board was a model M, very slightly greased, it's accurate, a click is a key code sent instantly, never misses, no way to make it miss even on purpose, it's a 23 years old keyboard and been heavily used. Having added it an almost microscopic coat of grease inside each key stem dampens it enough to allow me to use this Model M at 2am knowing my neighbor sleeps about 10 feet right above my computer desk, impossible to do with a default Unicomp Customizer, the
customizer i constantly had to hold back, or even stop typing and working, it was a problem. In terms of sound, my Model M(it's not the typical cacophonic M) and the HHKB Pro2 are in the same noise bracket except the HHKB Pro2's space bar is noisier. My model M has almost no grease, nearly invisible, if i wanted to dampen it more, there is still alot of room left, but it's already as quiet as the HHKB Pro2.

This is an early review, at this point i'm not sure i would return it(not like I can anyway) but Filco blue might be a better choice, regardless of the price, considering the other arguments above, id give this board no more than a 5/10, now factor in the cost arguments above, this would drop more.

EDIT: ill bump my appreciation from 5 to 6.5 since altho it started bad, there was no unpleasant surprises on any of the computer/OS i tried in the last 3 weeks, it's been on the market for a long time and it shows since it's compatible with everything I throw at it. EDIT: And from 6.5 to 7/10 since the 3 level angle adjustment is a ergonomic feature i wasn't aware of, using the smaller feet(the ones hidden inside the big feet). Unnexpected good feeling of oneness with cup rubber, this keyboard's a keeper, blocking out how much I paid for it and bumping it for a final rating of 8/10.

From the current point, it's likely it will it might rank a bit higher if I keep using it, the only way it could get lower is if it breaks, actually i would probably be less disappointed and have more hope if it had came in broke.

Isn't there a show for these kind of things? mythbuster or something?

On a side note, very happy with the Filco wrist rest that came with it


EDIT: 1 Month after buying this keyboard, keys feel comfortable, either the cup have a break-in period or it's muscle memory of the previous keyboard.
« Last Edit: Fri, 22 January 2010, 21:51:48 by GenEric35 »
:target: HHKB Pro 2  
IBM Model M 1390131
Unicomp Customizer

Offline ch_123

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Just got my hhkb pro2, @250$ the last zero was clearly a typo
« Reply #1 on: Tue, 22 December 2009, 10:36:33 »
For what it's worth, most people who've gotten them recently have been like "Meh". Then after some use they tend to like them a lot. Same with Cherry Browns. However, If you were expecting something as in your face as the Model M, you obviously didn't do your homework.

Quote
2-has half the keys, 60 switches instead of 104, they can make 2 keyboards for the price of one

...

5-alternate layout for arrows, end and page up keys, someone coded
autohotkey for free(give him and script contributors a medal of honor) it might not be embedded in the board, but those keys are the last ones that could benefit from a 1 microsecond improvement.
Should have gone to Specsavers.

Now that I think of it, no one outside of the British Isles will get that one...
« Last Edit: Tue, 22 December 2009, 10:44:41 by ch_123 »

Offline GenEric35

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Just got my hhkb pro2, @250$ the last zero was clearly a typo
« Reply #2 on: Tue, 22 December 2009, 10:54:53 »
Quote from: ripster;144454
I think the Canadian Customs officials confiscated the Vestal Virgins under each key.

Although everybody has different opinions on the HHKB2 I tend to think it's really meant for programmers because it's appeal is more the layout than the switch.

Sorry Ripster, but if I wasn't a programmer, there wouldn't be much left of me

hopefully it will pass, if things do turn out better, like it did for many, be assured I will post the good sides as well
« Last Edit: Tue, 22 December 2009, 11:04:21 by GenEric35 »
:target: HHKB Pro 2  
IBM Model M 1390131
Unicomp Customizer

Offline GenEric35

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Just got my hhkb pro2, @250$ the last zero was clearly a typo
« Reply #3 on: Tue, 22 December 2009, 11:09:41 »
Quote from: ch_123;144452
Should have gone to Specsavers.

Now that I think of it, no one outside of the British Isles will get that one...

Hi Ch, I see you link the the Topre tenkeyless, but the hhkb ayout is not a problem, it's just something I will get use to, but I was disapointed at how customizable the dip switches were, it allows to assign fn to left alt and/or left windows key, but the right alt and right windows key are just hardcoded there

as far as doing my homework, I expected it to be quieter than my model M but some things can't be recorded, just like the feel of the key press cannot realy be described until you tried it, and didnt expect the exact same feel as rubber dome board,

I mean i go the hhkb pro2 on the my desk, my 1986 Model and a 1995 rubber dome Model M on sitting on my lap, comparing the hhkb and the rubber model M keypress is same, where is that hhkb 'cushion' or fart, there has to be an explanation that could explain the cost, maybe the it's a biological membrane that needs mutate into a cushion than will start farting? Alteast it doesn't fart...
« Last Edit: Tue, 22 December 2009, 11:39:59 by GenEric35 »
:target: HHKB Pro 2  
IBM Model M 1390131
Unicomp Customizer

Offline patrickgeekhack

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Just got my hhkb pro2, @250$ the last zero was clearly a typo
« Reply #4 on: Tue, 22 December 2009, 14:12:25 »
I said it in another thread, a click+pronounced tactile point combination is the best combination for typing accurately. This is why I'm fastest and most accurate on my blue Cherries keyboard. I have become very fast on my Topre, but not as accurate as I were on my blue Cherries.

That being said, I was not disappointed like you were. First, I could get my keys to fire half-way all the time, and second, once I discovered the "good feeling of oneness with cup rubber," typing on the Topre became addictive.  And third, I had gradually moved to lighter and lighter switches before I tried the Topre. Moving from a Model M to a HHKB can require a fair amount of time to get used to. Use it for a month and then evaluate it. You may well still don't like it then. After all, we are all different. Some like it, some don't, and there's nothing wrong with that.

Offline leos

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Just got my hhkb pro2, @250$ the last zero was clearly a typo
« Reply #5 on: Tue, 22 December 2009, 14:15:28 »
Quote from: GenEric35;144449
yup, just like all the rubber dome keyboard, you can press the key until the dome collapse and give you a 'tactile' feedback, then release the key without it registering anything, very likely the price was set by someone typing on a HHKB Pro2, and typed 250$ instead of 25$



first impressions,
1-double the price of the best mechanical boards. And 10 to 20 times! the price of it's close cousin rubber dome boards


This is your opinion. I think the same about Ibm Model M


Quote from: GenEric35;144449
2-has half the keys, 60 switches instead of 104, they can make 2 keyboards for the price of one

Spacesaver? minis cost always more then a usual 104/105 layout keyboard

Quote from: GenEric35;144449
3-dip switches that allow you to reassign 3 pre-detemined keys(can't assign fn the right alt and right meta key only?), out of your 60 keys... 3 keys only? using dip switches? give that engineer a noble prize.

what did you expect? minimalist is the right word.

Quote from: GenEric35;144449
4-no tactile feedback what soever, rubber dome, there is no way to know your key registered, just like a rubber dome you have to trust that it will register, and just like a rubber dome you can press it and make the dome collapse without the key press registering, i can release the key after the dome collapsing and the key has not registered, it has all the flaws of a rubber dome, any of my buckling spring board will register every time, the tactile bump, the click sound, the key registering, all the at the exact same time. The HHKB Pro 2 is not a board i would rely my or someone's money on(missing a zero, or adding an extra one in data entry), setting an administrator password, wouldn't trust this in any medical or aeronautical application, so what's left, I wouldn't trust it for anything, maybe hobby computing, if it's not anything close to serious, which leaves good for writing forum posts, emails and chat.  

Maybe take a faulty HHKB?
and i assume you have spent too much work time on a buckling spring keyboard. Work first with the HHKB for a week and make a new review.



Quote from: GenEric35;144449
5-alternate layout for arrows, end and page up keys,
someone coded autohotkey for free(give him and script contributors a medal of honor) it might not be embedded in the board, but those keys are the last ones that could benefit from a 1 microsecond improvement.

I'm coming from a model M, very slightly greased, it's accurate, a click is a key code sent instantly, never misses, no way to make it miss even on purpose, it's a 23 years old keyboard and been heavily used. Having added it an almost microscopic coat of grease inside each key stem dampens it enough to allow me to use this Model M at 2am knowing my neighbor sleeps about 10 feet right above my computer desk, impossible to do with a default Unicomp Customizer, the
customizer i constantly had to hold back, or even stop typing and working, it was a problem. In terms of sound, my Model M(it's not the typical cacophonic M) and the HHKB Pro2 are in the same noise bracket except the HHKB Pro2's space bar is noisier. My model M has almost no grease, nearly invisible, if i wanted to dampen it more, there is still alot of room left, but it's already as quiet as the HHKB Pro2.

here you lie



Quote from: GenEric35;144449
This is an early review,

Yes it is.


Quote from: GenEric35;144449
at this point i'm not sure i would return it(not like I can anyway) but Filco blue might be a better choice, regardless of the price, considering the other arguments above, id give this board no more than a 5/10, now factor in the cost arguments above, this would drop more.

From the current point, it's likely it will it might rank a bit higher if I keep using it, the only way it could get lower is if it breaks, actually i would probably be less disappointed and have more hope if it had came in broke.

Isn't there a show for these kind of things? mythbuster or something?

On a side note, very happy with the Filco wrist rest that came with it

Just i say your opinion. Take time and you see lot of positive aspects like,
lighter keystroke, farting!!, if you press more then one keys the feeling is heavier, topre sound, spacesaver and a layout that work.
« Last Edit: Tue, 22 December 2009, 14:22:36 by leos »
HHKB 2 Pro Black in use :typing:

Offline leos

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Just got my hhkb pro2, @250$ the last zero was clearly a typo
« Reply #6 on: Tue, 22 December 2009, 14:20:07 »
Quote from: GenEric35;144457
Sorry Ripster, but if I wasn't a programmer, there wouldn't be much left of me

hopefully it will pass, if things do turn out better, like it did for many, be assured I will post the good sides as well


i write a lot code on visual studio, eclipse and netbeans and i am use a HHKB on work. Just i say before, take time.
HHKB 2 Pro Black in use :typing:

Offline leos

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Just got my hhkb pro2, @250$ the last zero was clearly a typo
« Reply #7 on: Tue, 22 December 2009, 14:26:40 »
btw if you do not want your HHKB anymore, you find for sure a geekhacker who will be glad to buy it!!!!!
HHKB 2 Pro Black in use :typing:

Offline microsoft windows

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Just got my hhkb pro2, @250$ the last zero was clearly a typo
« Reply #8 on: Tue, 22 December 2009, 14:45:52 »
I'll buy it for $5.
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Offline leos

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Just got my hhkb pro2, @250$ the last zero was clearly a typo
« Reply #9 on: Tue, 22 December 2009, 14:52:54 »
Quote from: microsoft windows;144511
I'll buy it for $5.

 
i give 100$

 and 1$ for the model m
HHKB 2 Pro Black in use :typing:

Offline microsoft windows

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Just got my hhkb pro2, @250$ the last zero was clearly a typo
« Reply #10 on: Tue, 22 December 2009, 14:53:59 »
Guess you outbid me. Oh, well. I bet those Topres don't feel much different than my old Dell keyboard from 1995.
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Offline patrickgeekhack

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Just got my hhkb pro2, @250$ the last zero was clearly a typo
« Reply #11 on: Tue, 22 December 2009, 14:55:42 »
Quote from: microsoft windows;144519
Guess you outbid me. Oh, well. I bet those Topres don't feel much different than my old Dell keyboard from 1995.


Are you sure? :-)

Offline leos

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Just got my hhkb pro2, @250$ the last zero was clearly a typo
« Reply #12 on: Tue, 22 December 2009, 14:58:40 »
Quote from: microsoft windows;144519
Guess you outbid me.


i think to recycle the model m do not cost more then 1 dollar


Quote from: microsoft windows;144519

 Oh, well. I bet those Topres don't feel much different than my old Dell keyboard from 1995.



and i think you lose the bet
HHKB 2 Pro Black in use :typing:

Offline microsoft windows

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Just got my hhkb pro2, @250$ the last zero was clearly a typo
« Reply #13 on: Tue, 22 December 2009, 15:02:45 »
Well, different keyboards are right for different people.
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Offline patrickgeekhack

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Just got my hhkb pro2, @250$ the last zero was clearly a typo
« Reply #14 on: Tue, 22 December 2009, 15:09:54 »
Quote from: microsoft windows;144526
Well, different keyboards are right for different people.


You got this one right.

Offline leos

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Just got my hhkb pro2, @250$ the last zero was clearly a typo
« Reply #15 on: Tue, 22 December 2009, 15:15:49 »
Quote from: microsoft windows;144526
Well, different keyboards are right for different people.


if this makes you feel better,i am same Opinion with you.

its very difficult for me to go back to a heavier Model m.
HHKB 2 Pro Black in use :typing:

Offline bigpook

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Just got my hhkb pro2, @250$ the last zero was clearly a typo
« Reply #16 on: Tue, 22 December 2009, 15:23:22 »
while its been awhile since I typed on an HHKB; I do remember it being the smoothest feeling key I have ever used. I don't see the comparison to the el cheapo rubber dome keyboard at all.
IIRC,it didn't take me long to get used to it either, the layout was different but after a bit it made total sense.

I think a big part of it is the reality of paying close to 300 dollars for a keyboard. I don't think it lives up to the price, at all.  For 300 dollars I expect dinner and a reach around.
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Offline leos

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Just got my hhkb pro2, @250$ the last zero was clearly a typo
« Reply #17 on: Tue, 22 December 2009, 15:49:24 »
you can take a model m for 0$ here..
and here ...http://www.time.com/time/photogallery/0,29307,1870162_1822148,00.html but you do not find a single HHKB. Now we know also why the HHKB is so expensive.
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Offline microsoft windows

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Just got my hhkb pro2, @250$ the last zero was clearly a typo
« Reply #18 on: Tue, 22 December 2009, 17:30:10 »
Quote from: leos;144547
you can take a model m for 0$ here..
Show Image

and here ...http://www.time.com/time/photogallery/0,29307,1870162_1822148,00.html but you do not find a single HHKB. Now we know also why the HHKB is so expensive.


I spotted some thick old IBM's. Not sure if they're the run-of-the-mill Model M though.
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Offline microsoft windows

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Just got my hhkb pro2, @250$ the last zero was clearly a typo
« Reply #19 on: Tue, 22 December 2009, 17:36:01 »
Quote from: leos;144524
i think to recycle the model m do not cost more then 1 dollar





and i think you lose the bet


Do you have an old Quietkey (One of the originals)? They are the best rubber domes I have ever used. Each key has a slider and has extremely smooth action, and when you press a key down hard, it bottoms out and just stops (I'm sure you guys have seen many rubber dome keyboards where they feel "creaky" after you bottom out on them and press more). In addition, there's a spring-loaded space bar and all large keys have stablizers. I can press any key in any corner of the keycap and it'll move down nice and smoothly. In addition, each key requires very little pressure compared to an IBM or an ALPS. Next time you see an old Quietkey in your workplace's trash, take a look at it and see if it's a good one (Later models feel terrible).

I haven't felt a Topre but this Quietkey feels just how you guys described a Topre except it is about $300 cheaper and isn't capacitive. And it's ugly and yellowed too.
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Offline hacfed

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Just got my hhkb pro2, @250$ the last zero was clearly a typo
« Reply #20 on: Tue, 22 December 2009, 17:42:51 »
I have only one workstation but several keyboards... and I'd sooner sell my workstation than my HHKB, if I was flat ass broke and in need of cash.

My HHKB gives me so much joy, I haven't questioned the purchase even once. What did I pay for it again, $288 shipped to Ireland? Pfft. Bargain. If it bit the dust tomorrow I'd buy another one.

Different strokes for different folks. Just my 2c. :)
I respectfully decline the invitation to join your delusion.


Offline microsoft windows

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« Reply #21 on: Tue, 22 December 2009, 17:48:59 »
If it feels like me Quietkey, then I understand why you like it a lot. But I think my favorite keyswitch is the Model M's buckling spring since it clicks and can withstand quite a pounding.
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Offline hacfed

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Just got my hhkb pro2, @250$ the last zero was clearly a typo
« Reply #22 on: Tue, 22 December 2009, 18:05:14 »
There's a reason I have both, but the M doesn't see a whole lot of action to be honest. It's a fine example - from 1995, and all rivets intact. Took a cup of coffee a while back and still operating perfectly after a good clean. The HHKB on the other hand is a weak little thing, but so far so good with it.
I respectfully decline the invitation to join your delusion.


Offline ch_123

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Just got my hhkb pro2, @250$ the last zero was clearly a typo
« Reply #23 on: Tue, 22 December 2009, 18:19:11 »
Quote from: bigpook;144539
I don't see the comparison to the el cheapo rubber dome keyboard at all.

Yeah, I love how that one is espoused by people who have never tried a Topre board, and have seemingly no interest in doing so.

So, in the two-three weeks that I have left -

JAPANESE RUBBER DOME. JAPANESE RUBBER DOME. JAPANESE RUBBER DOME. JAPANESE RUBBER DOME. JAPANESE RUBBER DOME. JAPANESE RUBBER DOME. JAPANESE RUBBER DOME. JAPANESE RUBBER DOME. JAPANESE RUBBER DOME. JAPANESE RUBBER DOME. JAPANESE RUBBER DOME. JAPANESE RUBBER DOME. JAPANESE RUBBER DOME.

Offline bigpook

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Just got my hhkb pro2, @250$ the last zero was clearly a typo
« Reply #24 on: Tue, 22 December 2009, 18:39:42 »
Quote from: ch_123;144594
Yeah, I love how that one is espoused by people who have never tried a Topre board, and have seemingly no interest in doing so.

So, in the two-three weeks that I have left -

JAPANESE RUBBER DOME. JAPANESE RUBBER DOME. JAPANESE RUBBER DOME. JAPANESE RUBBER DOME. JAPANESE RUBBER DOME. JAPANESE RUBBER DOME. JAPANESE RUBBER DOME. JAPANESE RUBBER DOME. JAPANESE RUBBER DOME. JAPANESE RUBBER DOME. JAPANESE RUBBER DOME. JAPANESE RUBBER DOME. JAPANESE RUBBER DOME.

I take it that one is on the way? cool. I am still debating whether or not to spring for one. Its hard to be resolute after reading these threads though.

never mind, its in your sig. I should read those more often : )
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Offline pikapika

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Just got my hhkb pro2, @250$ the last zero was clearly a typo
« Reply #25 on: Tue, 22 December 2009, 18:44:43 »
i got an hhkb lite, surely it's far lower than the pro, but i was not much impresssed by it.
my lenovo laptop keyboard gives much better typing feelings

Offline bigpook

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Just got my hhkb pro2, @250$ the last zero was clearly a typo
« Reply #26 on: Tue, 22 December 2009, 18:47:39 »
the HHKB lite is in no way comparable to the pro version. Except for the key layout of course. But thats about it.
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Offline pikapika

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Just got my hhkb pro2, @250$ the last zero was clearly a typo
« Reply #27 on: Tue, 22 December 2009, 18:59:23 »
a colleague has one, maybe i should have tried it before answering :-)

Offline ch_123

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Just got my hhkb pro2, @250$ the last zero was clearly a typo
« Reply #28 on: Tue, 22 December 2009, 19:03:24 »
Quote from: bigpook;144599
I take it that one is on the way? cool. I am still debating whether or not to spring for one. Its hard to be resolute after reading these threads though.

never mind, its in your sig. I should read those more often : )


I was very lucky to get a little used (or so the seller claimed) HHKB Pro with blank keys for $165, including shipping across the pond.

Offline bigpook

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Just got my hhkb pro2, @250$ the last zero was clearly a typo
« Reply #29 on: Tue, 22 December 2009, 19:06:11 »
Quote from: ch_123;144605
I was very lucky to get a little used (or so the seller claimed) HHKB Pro with blank keys for $165, including shipping across the pond.


man, was that you on ebay? I topped out at 151.50. I thought I had it too.
it was the version without the USB ports, right?
HHKB Pro 2 : Unicomp Spacesaver : IBM Model M : DasIII    

Offline bigpook

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Just got my hhkb pro2, @250$ the last zero was clearly a typo
« Reply #30 on: Tue, 22 December 2009, 19:07:48 »
Quote from: pikapika;144604
a colleague has one, maybe i should have tried it before answering :-)


If you try the pro version you will see what I mean.  But then again maybe you shouldn't. You won't want to go back to the lite version. Trust me.
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Offline ch_123

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Just got my hhkb pro2, @250$ the last zero was clearly a typo
« Reply #31 on: Tue, 22 December 2009, 19:08:21 »
Yeah, that was me. Sorry about that =P

Aye, it's the original version which is pretty much identical except for the lack of USB ports. I would have like letters on the keys to make it slightly more obvious what I'm meant to be doing for the first week or so, but for that price, I'll live.

Offline cheater1034

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Just got my hhkb pro2, @250$ the last zero was clearly a typo
« Reply #32 on: Tue, 22 December 2009, 19:09:23 »
Quote from: bigpook;144607
man, was that you on ebay? I topped out at 151.50. I thought I had it too.
it was the version without the USB ports, right?

I was in that auction too :P

I didn't want to go over $150 (i think my max bid), mostly because I can't see spending $250 for a new one anyway, and i didnt want to go very high on a 4-5 year old one.

I'm not so sure i'll like it anyway :\ I may just stick to blue cherries and get a filco
But one thing is certain, when spending $250 for a keyboard you try really hard to look for pros - even if the cons outweigh them

Quote from: leos;144496
Spacesaver? minis cost always more then a usual 104/105 layout keyboard
Not true, they cost less to make in every situation (less keys and less switches and less plastic = cheaper), and the filco tenkeyless are cheaper (unless you get a full size one without nkro, with nkro full size is more expensive)

Model m space saver's are so expensive because of how rare they are :\
« Last Edit: Tue, 22 December 2009, 19:15:32 by cheater1034 »
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Offline ch_123

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Just got my hhkb pro2, @250$ the last zero was clearly a typo
« Reply #33 on: Tue, 22 December 2009, 19:11:02 »
The seller said that he had only put about 100 hours through the thing. Maybe the first HHKB was subcontracted out to Unicomp for manufacture?

Either way, if what he's saying is true, there shouldn't be any notable wear on the key action itself.
« Last Edit: Wed, 23 December 2009, 04:34:35 by ch_123 »

Offline bigpook

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Just got my hhkb pro2, @250$ the last zero was clearly a typo
« Reply #34 on: Tue, 22 December 2009, 19:14:28 »
I got my first HHKB pro from xsphat, who got it from someone else. So it had a fair amount of use on it, I wouldn't worry about noticeable wear on the key action.
HHKB Pro 2 : Unicomp Spacesaver : IBM Model M : DasIII    

Offline ch_123

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Just got my hhkb pro2, @250$ the last zero was clearly a typo
« Reply #35 on: Tue, 22 December 2009, 19:28:19 »
Just as long as I get the Good Oneness with Cup Rubber it's cool with me.

Offline microsoft windows

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Just got my hhkb pro2, @250$ the last zero was clearly a typo
« Reply #36 on: Tue, 22 December 2009, 19:29:20 »
I've already got that on a few old keyboards I got for free.
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Offline GenEric35

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Just got my hhkb pro2, @250$ the last zero was clearly a typo
« Reply #37 on: Tue, 22 December 2009, 19:59:37 »
Quote from: patrickgeekhack;144494
I said it in another thread, a click+pronounced tactile point combination is the best combination for typing accurately. This is why I'm fastest and most accurate on my blue Cherries keyboard. I have become very fast on my Topre, but not as accurate as I were on my blue Cherries.

That being said, I was not disappointed like you were. First, I could get my keys to fire half-way all the time, and second, once I discovered the "good feeling of oneness with cup rubber," typing on the Topre became addictive.  And third, I had gradually moved to lighter and lighter switches before I tried the Topre. Moving from a Model M to a HHKB can require a fair amount of time to get used to. Use it for a month and then evaluate it. You may well still don't like it then. After all, we are all different. Some like it, some don't, and there's nothing wrong with that.

I agree with all of that, even that the keys fire half way, the problem is, i can manage to release right after the bump without it registering the key press, it's not something i can do on all keys all the time, but the time it takes me is about 5-6 attempts to find a key that will fail to register if released after the bump, and the ratio is the same on a dell rubber dome, that sells new, for 8$ and the guy always has 2 crates of those new 8$ dell boards, maybe it will get more accurate when the dome get a bit more usage, but cheap dell don't seem to vary much with time. Thanks for sharing, it's true almost on many of my keyboards i had these moments where the board sudenly felt different(great), probably it was just me adapting to it.
« Last Edit: Wed, 23 December 2009, 00:07:02 by GenEric35 »
:target: HHKB Pro 2  
IBM Model M 1390131
Unicomp Customizer

Offline GenEric35

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Just got my hhkb pro2, @250$ the last zero was clearly a typo
« Reply #38 on: Tue, 22 December 2009, 20:14:31 »
Quote from: leos;144496
This is your opinion. I think the same about Ibm Model M




Spacesaver? minis cost always more then a usual 104/105 layout keyboard



what did you expect? minimalist is the right word.



Maybe take a faulty HHKB?
and i assume you have spent too much work time on a buckling spring keyboard. Work first with the HHKB for a week and make a new review.





here you lie





Yes it is.




Just i say your opinion. Take time and you see lot of positive aspects like,
lighter keystroke, farting!!, if you press more then one keys the feeling is heavier, topre sound, spacesaver and a layout that work.

model M in good to great condition are barely half the price of a Filco, not sure which IBM and which other mechanicals you are comparing to, as far as my M being as quiet as my HHKB Pro2, have you ever greased a M with syntectic grease even slightly? springs on assembly chains are usualy greased. My 131 is probably very light touch to start with, I'm surprised noone has mentionned how quiet it can be once the mini-gong, ping, and any spring rattle is removed from the equation, that leaves only very quiet click, and a muffled top out, i have it sitting on my lap now and the hhkb pro2 spacebar sound buried it I udnerstand you could think i'm exaggerating, but lying? nope. Maybe it depends on the type of grease used, it's so effecient in damping it almost like a magic trick, then again, I remember seeing assembly chains and all springs were greased, why it went unnoticed to apply the same logic to keyboards, they keys are designed to be removed and put back in easily, but maybe greasing was not part of design and maybe they didn't expect rubber domes to come out and be quieter then a mini-gong, ping, or sspring rattle. I did put alot of time on my model M, but my hhkb is on warranty and i'm not oppening it without a reason.
« Last Edit: Tue, 22 December 2009, 23:53:44 by GenEric35 »
:target: HHKB Pro 2  
IBM Model M 1390131
Unicomp Customizer

Offline GenEric35

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Just got my hhkb pro2, @250$ the last zero was clearly a typo
« Reply #39 on: Tue, 22 December 2009, 20:28:44 »
Quote from: microsoft windows;144573
Do you have an old Quietkey (One of the originals)? They are the best rubber domes I have ever used. Each key has a slider and has extremely smooth action, and when you press a key down hard, it bottoms out and just stops (I'm sure you guys have seen many rubber dome keyboards where they feel "creaky" after you bottom out on them and press more). In addition, there's a spring-loaded space bar and all large keys have stablizers. I can press any key in any corner of the keycap and it'll move down nice and smoothly. In addition, each key requires very little pressure compared to an IBM or an ALPS. Next time you see an old Quietkey in your workplace's trash, take a look at it and see if it's a good one (Later models feel terrible).

I haven't felt a Topre but this Quietkey feels just how you guys described a Topre except it is about $300 cheaper and isn't capacitive. And it's ugly and yellowed too.

Hi, I have a 1995 quiet key, Model M, 71G4644, the first time I typed on it was a calming experience. Although, like other model Ms, If you swipe a hand on all the keys at once, the keycaps rattle, I'm not ready to say it's a good keyboard, but it has it's place right next to any other of my keyboard even the more expensive ones, if i had to use a keyboard as a shield the 131 would be the best, but i would shield it before it shielding me, my abs m1 seems solid but too small, id probably use the 71G4644 because the customizer the customizer's case shatters too easily, the customizer has great internals but would diserve a better case, and maybe a few other quality upgrades(a great quality cable, two piece keycap, and slightly sturdier backplate)
« Last Edit: Wed, 23 December 2009, 00:20:13 by GenEric35 »
:target: HHKB Pro 2  
IBM Model M 1390131
Unicomp Customizer

Offline GenEric35

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Just got my hhkb pro2, @250$ the last zero was clearly a typo
« Reply #40 on: Tue, 22 December 2009, 20:52:25 »
Quote from: bigpook;144539
while its been awhile since I typed on an HHKB; I do remember it being the smoothest feeling key I have ever used. I don't see the comparison to the el cheapo rubber dome keyboard at all.
IIRC,it didn't take me long to get used to it either, the layout was different but after a bit it made total sense.

I think a big part of it is the reality of paying close to 300 dollars for a keyboard. I don't think it lives up to the price, at all.  For 300 dollars I expect dinner and a reach around.

I have to admit i'm not used at all to the hhkb pro 2 layout yet, i can type, but can barely edit text using arrows yet, and although all my keyboard shortcuts and chords are well placed, and many times, better posistionned on the hhkb pro2, i currently have to think of how to type them first, that will improved fast

for rubber dome comparison i'm refering to this one which someone else noticed as good value, and which i had seen for a long time at 30$ but recently found them for 8$ from pc/depot encan depot, http://www.encandepot.com/ he always has 2 crates of new ones

yea, today i had to spend another 300$ on 40k mile car maintenance, and that's just one of the normally monthly expenses we all have, living is expensive, just surviving is expensive, what hurts is this is a luxury, something that's very likely above the 'level' of life i should have, the only excuse is it's a work tool, then again, there is a very high percentage of people who live a higher life than their situation allows, just living it I guess,

the price of the hhkb is an issue, I think they should cut it by half(it does start off with half the switches, this has to impact cost of making it), how long has this board been out, the engineering on it is noticeable but it doesn't look like something that would take more than 15 years to pay off, especially they recently announce i can't remember how many millions of hhkb sold
« Last Edit: Wed, 23 December 2009, 00:24:23 by GenEric35 »
:target: HHKB Pro 2  
IBM Model M 1390131
Unicomp Customizer

Offline AndrewZorn

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Just got my hhkb pro2, @250$ the last zero was clearly a typo
« Reply #41 on: Tue, 22 December 2009, 20:55:15 »
unfortunately it comes down to "we wont sell 5x as many if we cut the profit down by 5x"

Offline GenEric35

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Just got my hhkb pro2, @250$ the last zero was clearly a typo
« Reply #42 on: Tue, 22 December 2009, 21:02:12 »
Quote from: leos;144547
you can take a model m for 0$ here..
Show Image

and here ...http://www.time.com/time/photogallery/0,29307,1870162_1822148,00.html but you do not find a single HHKB. Now we know also why the HHKB is so expensive.

and that's why i'm posting this today, the HHKB Pro 2 is rare and it's all it has going for it
« Last Edit: Wed, 23 December 2009, 00:25:28 by GenEric35 »
:target: HHKB Pro 2  
IBM Model M 1390131
Unicomp Customizer

Offline GenEric35

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Just got my hhkb pro2, @250$ the last zero was clearly a typo
« Reply #43 on: Tue, 22 December 2009, 21:05:39 »
Quote from: AndrewZorn;144626
unfortunately it comes down to "we wont sell 5x as many if we cut the profit down by 5x"

fair, but how about 2 for 2?
after 10+ years, i'd think R&D was paid long time ago, they probably pay more for the switches because it's the only thing they OEM on the board, and with 43-44 keys less per board, that's enough keys to make 3 more keyboards each time they sell 4. Add a brand name that's already investited in it and could distribute it as one of their products, Fujitsu right? there is a good share of profit in making one of those, cut the profit by half and remove middleman or two, the price might attract twice more people, and a distributor like fujitsu would provide much credibility and visibility, double would sell, not considering the 'carry factor' not sure how to translate this one but basicly, more people having it is more people seeing it, i'm not trying to convince people to invest in it, but saying the people currently making this keyboard are ****ers
« Last Edit: Tue, 22 December 2009, 21:26:31 by GenEric35 »
:target: HHKB Pro 2  
IBM Model M 1390131
Unicomp Customizer

Offline rdjack21

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Just got my hhkb pro2, @250$ the last zero was clearly a typo
« Reply #44 on: Tue, 22 December 2009, 21:26:45 »
Quote from: GenEric35;144621
I agree with all of that, even that the keys fire half way, the problem is, i can manage to release right after the bump without it releasing the key, it's not something i can do on all keys all the time, but the time it takes me is about 5-6 attempts to find a key that will fail to register if released after the bump, and the ratio is the same on a dell rubber dome, that sells new, for 8$ and the guy always has 2 crates of those new 8$ dell boards, maybe it will get more accurate when the dome get a bit more usage, but cheap dell don't seem to vary much with time. Thanks for sharing, it's true almost on many of my keyboards i had these moments where the board sudenly felt different, probably it was just me adapting to it.


It is not so much the domes that need a little break in. It is the springs because the HHKB Pro is a capacitive keyboard the key will not register until the spring creates the correct capacitance for the key to register. I have seen behaviour similar to this on new Topre boards as well. But after a break in period (the amount varies) they no longer have this problem. Also the activation point on all of my Topre boards is slightly higher than the dome collapse point not by much but definitely before dome collapse. If you stick with it and get to the point where you finally get to the point of "Good feeling of oneness with cup rubber" you will understand why this board cost so much. Also you will really only get that feeling after using the board for a while and then you most likely will only get it when in the grove at first later as your fingers really adjust to it you can get it allot more. But be warned to get there you really should only type on the Topre until your fingers adjust. Later you can switch between boards and your fingers will remember what to do after a short readjustment (for me a couple of hours).

When I moved off my Model M to my 87U it took me about a month to fully adjust to the Topre switch and during that time I did not type on the Model M at all. Today I still like my Model M but I would not want to type on it all day any more. Once I adjusted it took another week or so before I had the "Good feeling of oneness with cup rubber" and ever since that happened my Topre boards have been my goto boards ever since.
Keyboards
Topre Capacitive: Realforce 87U, Realforce 86U, HHKB Pro 2, Topre MD01B0, Topre HE0100, Sun Short Type, OEM NEO CS (x2), NISSHO Electronics KB106DE
Buckling Spring: IBM Model M Space Saver (1291472), Unicomp Customizer x 2
Cherry Brown: Filco FKBN87M/EB, Compaq MX11800
Black Alps: ABS M1
Not so great boards Rare Spring over dome OKI, Sun rack keyboard

Trackballs - Trackman Wheel (3), Trackman marble (2)
Keyboards I still want to get - Happy Hacking Keyboard Pro 2 the White version, Realforce 23U number pad in black and maybe white, μTRON ergo board with Topre switches.
Previously owned - [size=0]SiiG MiniTouch (White Alps), Scorpius M10 (Blue Cherry), IBM Model M13[/size]

Offline iMav

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Just got my hhkb pro2, @250$ the last zero was clearly a typo
« Reply #45 on: Tue, 22 December 2009, 21:32:09 »
With typical rubber dome + membrane switch cheap keyboards, you have to jam your fingers to the bottom to register a keystroke.  

If you have some Alps switches, you may notice that you can make them "click" without registering a keystroke (can't do that with Cherry's).

Regardless, in real world typing scenarios, you won't run into an issue (and, as others have said, those springs do need some wearing in).


If you don't like it, post it for sale here.  LOTS of geekhackers (myself included) absolutely love them.

Offline rdjack21

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Just got my hhkb pro2, @250$ the last zero was clearly a typo
« Reply #46 on: Tue, 22 December 2009, 21:37:40 »
Quote from: GenEric35;144628
fair, but how about 2 for 2?
after 10+ years, i'd think R&D was paid long time ago, they probably pay more for the switches because it's the only thing they OEM on the board, and with 43-44 keys less per board, that's enough keys to make 3 more keyboards each time they sell 4. Add a brand name that's already investited in it and could distribute it as one of their products, Fujitsu right? there is a good share of profit in making one of those, cut the profit by half and remove middleman or two, the price might attract twice more people, and a distributor like fujitsu would provide much credibility and visibility, double would sell, not considering the 'carry factor' not sure how to translate this one but basicly, more people having it is more people seeing it, i'm not trying to convince people to invest in it, but saying the people currently making this keyboard are ****ers


All of the Topre boards are made by Topre in Japan. I really think Topre is the one driving the price on the Topre OEM products not the vendor that is buying them. I've not seen a single Topre based keyboard sell for very much under $200 and even when they are under $200 then they are older products that the end sellers still have in stock that they are trying to get rid of. And I hate to say it but Topre really has no incentive to lower the price because keyboards are not the main money maker for the company and they hold a patent on the switch which means no one else can make something like it.
Keyboards
Topre Capacitive: Realforce 87U, Realforce 86U, HHKB Pro 2, Topre MD01B0, Topre HE0100, Sun Short Type, OEM NEO CS (x2), NISSHO Electronics KB106DE
Buckling Spring: IBM Model M Space Saver (1291472), Unicomp Customizer x 2
Cherry Brown: Filco FKBN87M/EB, Compaq MX11800
Black Alps: ABS M1
Not so great boards Rare Spring over dome OKI, Sun rack keyboard

Trackballs - Trackman Wheel (3), Trackman marble (2)
Keyboards I still want to get - Happy Hacking Keyboard Pro 2 the White version, Realforce 23U number pad in black and maybe white, μTRON ergo board with Topre switches.
Previously owned - [size=0]SiiG MiniTouch (White Alps), Scorpius M10 (Blue Cherry), IBM Model M13[/size]

Offline rdjack21

  • Posts: 896
Just got my hhkb pro2, @250$ the last zero was clearly a typo
« Reply #47 on: Tue, 22 December 2009, 21:45:17 »
Quote from: iMav;144634
With typical rubber dome + membrane switch cheap keyboards, you have to jam your fingers to the bottom to register a keystroke.  

If you have some Alps switches, you may notice that you can make them "click" without registering a keystroke (can't do that with Cherry's).

Regardless, in real world typing scenarios, you won't run into an issue (and, as others have said, those springs do need some wearing in).


If you don't like it, post it for sale here.  LOTS of geekhackers (myself included) absolutely love them.


Personally I'm not so sure it is the spring itself or the dome that needs the break in time but that the interaction of the spring and the dome that needs the break in time. I think that at first the spring will bind or rub a little on the inside of the dome which slows the spring collapse down and thus key registration down but once that dome and spring interaction has smoothed out then it just works as it should. I also think that Topre expects that new users of the board will require some adjustment and will not notice this issue because by the time they adjust to the board things have smoothed out. But for those that are already adjusted or those testing things it will be noticed.
Keyboards
Topre Capacitive: Realforce 87U, Realforce 86U, HHKB Pro 2, Topre MD01B0, Topre HE0100, Sun Short Type, OEM NEO CS (x2), NISSHO Electronics KB106DE
Buckling Spring: IBM Model M Space Saver (1291472), Unicomp Customizer x 2
Cherry Brown: Filco FKBN87M/EB, Compaq MX11800
Black Alps: ABS M1
Not so great boards Rare Spring over dome OKI, Sun rack keyboard

Trackballs - Trackman Wheel (3), Trackman marble (2)
Keyboards I still want to get - Happy Hacking Keyboard Pro 2 the White version, Realforce 23U number pad in black and maybe white, μTRON ergo board with Topre switches.
Previously owned - [size=0]SiiG MiniTouch (White Alps), Scorpius M10 (Blue Cherry), IBM Model M13[/size]

Offline AndrewZorn

  • Posts: 1086
Just got my hhkb pro2, @250$ the last zero was clearly a typo
« Reply #48 on: Tue, 22 December 2009, 21:59:25 »
Quote from: GenEric35;144628
fair, but how about 2 for 2?
after 10+ years, i'd think R&D was paid long time ago, they probably pay more for the switches because it's the only thing they OEM on the board, and with 43-44 keys less per board, that's enough keys to make 3 more keyboards each time they sell 4. Add a brand name that's already investited in it and could distribute it as one of their products, Fujitsu right? there is a good share of profit in making one of those, cut the profit by half and remove middleman or two, the price might attract twice more people, and a distributor like fujitsu would provide much credibility and visibility, double would sell, not considering the 'carry factor' not sure how to translate this one but basicly, more people having it is more people seeing it, i'm not trying to convince people to invest in it, but saying the people currently making this keyboard are ****ers

im not going to get in to all this.  i feel the same as you... it should not cost that much.  there is no reason.  just like how the 87u costs more than the 103u.  it makes no sense at all.

but you are forgetting that profit is not the same as total cost.

heres an example: if it cost $100, including all costs (marketing, etc) to make a HHKB... cutting profit in half would make it $170 instead of $240.  do you think TWICE as many people would buy it just because it cost $170?  i dont... maybe 25% more.

but yeah, sell it if you dont want it.  think of it economically: if something is worth X to someone else, but you wouldnt pay X for it, it is in your best interest to sell it.  there is a guy on candlepowerforums that said he would buy one in an instant for $150 like mine was, and desperately wants to try one out.  ask me if you would be interested.  depending on the color you got it in, i might even want yours, and sell him mine.

Offline GenEric35

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Just got my hhkb pro2, @250$ the last zero was clearly a typo
« Reply #49 on: Tue, 22 December 2009, 23:32:16 »
Quote from: AndrewZorn;144643
im not going to get in to all this.  i feel the same as you... it should not cost that much.  there is no reason.  just like how the 87u costs more than the 103u.  it makes no sense at all.

but you are forgetting that profit is not the same as total cost.

heres an example: if it cost $100, including all costs (marketing, etc) to make a HHKB... cutting profit in half would make it $170 instead of $240.  do you think TWICE as many people would buy it just because it cost $170?  i dont... maybe 25% more.

but yeah, sell it if you dont want it.  think of it economically: if something is worth X to someone else, but you wouldnt pay X for it, it is in your best interest to sell it.  there is a guy on candlepowerforums that said he would buy one in an instant for $150 like mine was, and desperately wants to try one out.  ask me if you would be interested.  depending on the color you got it in, i might even want yours, and sell him mine.

yea, 170 is certainly an interesting price, selling twice more is optimistic, I wish i could link how many millions they sold already, and i was considering that it seems like getting a quality keyboard is a growing trend and fact that laptops are smaller and affordable that the trend would be to get a compact keyboard, negating the disadvantage of the keyboards that arent ergonomicaly correct like the eepc being too small, and phones that have more and more features found on desktop pc's, i'm not an economist by any means, but compact keyboards might be what poeple want, being that it's been 10+ years those technologies are out, even the model M's were selling for 250$ twenty years ago, with inflation that's would be even more today, and Unicomp now sells the same technology for 5 times lower

btw, my hhkb pro2 is a white blank, it looks just like on the pictures, looks good imo, I might sell it in 4-5 weeks if I don't dig it, but for the price consider I have opened it today, new in box, and a pre-order I had to wait for over a month
« Last Edit: Wed, 23 December 2009, 00:29:24 by GenEric35 »
:target: HHKB Pro 2  
IBM Model M 1390131
Unicomp Customizer

Offline GenEric35

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Just got my hhkb pro2, @250$ the last zero was clearly a typo
« Reply #50 on: Tue, 22 December 2009, 23:43:01 »
Thanks Imav, i'll give it a few weeks to get get use to it.
To quote Bob Dylan,
Quote
...
Well, now time passed and now it seems
Everybody's havin' them dreams.
...
Half the people can be part right all of the time, an'
Some of the people can be all right part of the time,
But all the people can't be all right all of the time.
I think Abraham Lincoln said that.
...
« Last Edit: Wed, 23 December 2009, 05:24:34 by GenEric35 »
:target: HHKB Pro 2  
IBM Model M 1390131
Unicomp Customizer

Offline GenEric35

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Just got my hhkb pro2, @250$ the last zero was clearly a typo
« Reply #51 on: Wed, 23 December 2009, 00:13:13 »
Quote from: rdjack21;144631
It is not so much the domes that need a little break in. It is the springs because the HHKB Pro is a capacitive keyboard the key will not register until the spring creates the correct capacitance for the key to register. I have seen behaviour similar to this on new Topre boards as well. But after a break in period (the amount varies) they no longer have this problem. Also the activation point on all of my Topre boards is slightly higher than the dome collapse point not by much but definitely before dome collapse. If you stick with it and get to the point where you finally get to the point of "Good feeling of oneness with cup rubber" you will understand why this board cost so much. Also you will really only get that feeling after using the board for a while and then you most likely will only get it when in the grove at first later as your fingers really adjust to it you can get it allot more. But be warned to get there you really should only type on the Topre until your fingers adjust. Later you can switch between boards and your fingers will remember what to do after a short readjustment (for me a couple of hours).

When I moved off my Model M to my 87U it took me about a month to fully adjust to the Topre switch and during that time I did not type on the Model M at all. Today I still like my Model M but I would not want to type on it all day any more. Once I adjusted it took another week or so before I had the "Good feeling of oneness with cup rubber" and ever since that happened my Topre boards have been my goto boards ever since.

thanks, that was very interesting, I didn't actually know if the spring's capacitance was used(since it already contributed, in a mechanical way) didn't expect the spring to have two jobs, I will definitely give it a full month.
:target: HHKB Pro 2  
IBM Model M 1390131
Unicomp Customizer

Offline ch_123

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Just got my hhkb pro2, @250$ the last zero was clearly a typo
« Reply #52 on: Wed, 23 December 2009, 03:55:27 »
Quote from: microsoft windows;144573
I haven't felt a Topre but this Quietkey feels just how you guys described a Topre except it is about $300 cheaper and isn't capacitive. And it's ugly and yellowed too.


Except of course for the fact that you have to bottom out on a rubber dome to get them to work. And they'd be a good deal more stiff than the Topres

Offline patrickgeekhack

  • Posts: 1460
Just got my hhkb pro2, @250$ the last zero was clearly a typo
« Reply #53 on: Wed, 23 December 2009, 09:50:58 »
Quote from: GenEric35;144621
I agree with all of that, even that the keys fire half way, the problem is, i can manage to release right after the bump without it registering the key press, it's not something i can do on all keys all the time, but the time it takes me is about 5-6 attempts to find a key that will fail to register if released after the bump, and the ratio is the same on a dell rubber dome, that sells new, for 8$ and the guy always has 2 crates of those new 8$ dell boards, maybe it will get more accurate when the dome get a bit more usage, but cheap dell don't seem to vary much with time. Thanks for sharing, it's true almost on many of my keyboards i had these moments where the board sudenly felt different(great), probably it was just me adapting to it.


You could well have a defective unit. Though this is rare in the Topre/HHKB world, it's not impossible. I sure hope it's not a defective unit. You'll be able to tell after a month with the keyboard for sure.

Offline Rajagra

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« Reply #54 on: Wed, 23 December 2009, 10:14:53 »
Quote from: GenEric35;144449
4-no tactile feedback what soever, rubber dome, there is no way to know your key registered, just like a rubber dome you have to trust that it will register, and just like a rubber dome you can press it and make the dome collapse without the key press registering, i can release the key after the dome collapsing and the key has not registered

I may be repeating what others have said, but it's worth saying. My Topre board (currently using a Realforce 87U, but I have a HHKB Pro too) does not fail in the way yours does there. I just tried to replicate your problem, pressing keys so I went past the peak force point, but without bottoming out. Worked properly every time. Even when I had my eyes closed.

If mine behaved like yours does now, I would consider it an overpriced piece of junk too, no matter how good it felt in other ways.

Maybe yours does need breaking in, I don't really know. But maybe it's also that you are comparing it to buckling springs, and that's kind of unfair. BS switches are pretty extreme, they are like agricultural engineering. Topres are intended to be more refined. You'd really be hard pushed to find better examples of keyboards from the opposite ends of the spectrum.


Aside from that, it's good to hear an alternative viewpoint. :smile:
« Last Edit: Wed, 23 December 2009, 10:18:41 by Rajagra »

Offline rdjack21

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« Reply #55 on: Wed, 23 December 2009, 18:01:18 »
Quote from: ripster;144760
This is a valuable post because in my following of the "OMG I JUST GOT A TOPRE" threads the people whose favorite keyboard in their sig was an ALPS or a Buckling Spring often are disappointed with Topres.

I mean, there's no law saying you have to try EVERY switch.  Well, maybe it was in the Geekhack forum registration agreement.


Yes and I have said the same many times to those that have a BS board and want to try the Topre. The Topre is such a radical change from a BS or the alps that it is hard to adjust to it when you are coming off such a heavy switch. And what can be worse ,if you really do like that BS board, is that after using the Topre and I would think any lighter switch board for some time it is hard to go back to the BS board and use it all day long with out your fingers starting to hurt.
Keyboards
Topre Capacitive: Realforce 87U, Realforce 86U, HHKB Pro 2, Topre MD01B0, Topre HE0100, Sun Short Type, OEM NEO CS (x2), NISSHO Electronics KB106DE
Buckling Spring: IBM Model M Space Saver (1291472), Unicomp Customizer x 2
Cherry Brown: Filco FKBN87M/EB, Compaq MX11800
Black Alps: ABS M1
Not so great boards Rare Spring over dome OKI, Sun rack keyboard

Trackballs - Trackman Wheel (3), Trackman marble (2)
Keyboards I still want to get - Happy Hacking Keyboard Pro 2 the White version, Realforce 23U number pad in black and maybe white, μTRON ergo board with Topre switches.
Previously owned - [size=0]SiiG MiniTouch (White Alps), Scorpius M10 (Blue Cherry), IBM Model M13[/size]

Offline rdjack21

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« Reply #56 on: Wed, 23 December 2009, 18:04:49 »
Quote from: patrickgeekhack;144741
You could well have a defective unit. Though this is rare in the Topre/HHKB world, it's not impossible. I sure hope it's not a defective unit. You'll be able to tell after a month with the keyboard for sure.


Hopefully the board was purchased from Elitekeboards because if it is defective they will replace it. Topre is anal about quality and wants the board shipped back to Japan so it can be evaluated to ensure that the same type of defect does not happen again. Which is one of the reasons their are so few defective Topre boards.
Keyboards
Topre Capacitive: Realforce 87U, Realforce 86U, HHKB Pro 2, Topre MD01B0, Topre HE0100, Sun Short Type, OEM NEO CS (x2), NISSHO Electronics KB106DE
Buckling Spring: IBM Model M Space Saver (1291472), Unicomp Customizer x 2
Cherry Brown: Filco FKBN87M/EB, Compaq MX11800
Black Alps: ABS M1
Not so great boards Rare Spring over dome OKI, Sun rack keyboard

Trackballs - Trackman Wheel (3), Trackman marble (2)
Keyboards I still want to get - Happy Hacking Keyboard Pro 2 the White version, Realforce 23U number pad in black and maybe white, μTRON ergo board with Topre switches.
Previously owned - [size=0]SiiG MiniTouch (White Alps), Scorpius M10 (Blue Cherry), IBM Model M13[/size]

Offline hacfed

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« Reply #57 on: Wed, 23 December 2009, 18:16:59 »
Quote from: rdjack21;144909
Hopefully the board was purchased from Elitekeboards because if it is defective they will replace it. Topre is anal about quality and wants the board shipped back to Japan so it can be evaluated to ensure that the same type of defect does not happen again. Which is one of the reasons their are so few defective Topre boards.


That's massively reassuring. And in response to the whole idea of BS and Topre boards being polar opposites, well, that they may be.. but I have to say I'm happy typing on either without any kind of re-adjustment period. Though, and it's important to note, in the beginning I had to type on the HHKB exclusively for quite a while -  several days - to 'get it'. And finally, after many weeks, the whole navigation keys issue is an issue no more. Frankly, a full size, nay even a tenkeyless feels like overkill.

I think if after a couple of weeks the OP feels like the board is junk, maybe it should be returned for another. I'd hate to sound like a blind fanatic, but the majority of HHKB owners do love them, am I right? In any case, they are very easily sold on, so no worries there.

Just my "me too" 2c. :)
I respectfully decline the invitation to join your delusion.


Offline microsoft windows

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Just got my hhkb pro2, @250$ the last zero was clearly a typo
« Reply #58 on: Wed, 23 December 2009, 19:46:29 »
Quote from: rdjack21;144909
Hopefully the board was purchased from Elitekeboards because if it is defective they will replace it. Topre is anal about quality and wants the board shipped back to Japan so it can be evaluated to ensure that the same type of defect does not happen again. Which is one of the reasons their are so few defective Topre boards.


I recall reading that in Japan many companies strive to have a good reputation by making good quality products. This is true in some ways throughout the entire region with members of a Chinese milk company being sentenced to death for letting contaminated milk get by. While the consequences might not be as high, companies in the region tend to strive to maintain a good reputation amongst the people.
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Offline o2dazone

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« Reply #59 on: Sun, 27 December 2009, 17:59:17 »
I felt the same way you did. "$250 for this???", after about a week, I felt less like that, and after about a month, I considered getting a second one. I'd like to hear a follow up review, perhaps requoting your sticking points in your OP and give us some insight of what you think after a week, and then after a month.

Thanks for the immediate review. Glad to know I'm not the only one who felt that way when they first got an HHKB (I've got two now, and haven't been convinced of needing anything else)

Offline GenEric35

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« Reply #60 on: Mon, 28 December 2009, 00:55:11 »
yes, so far it's been only 5 days, I will follow up on it, thanks
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Offline maxlugar

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« Reply #61 on: Mon, 28 December 2009, 01:31:08 »
Quote from: microsoft windows;144926
I recall reading that in Japan many companies strive to have a good reputation by making good quality products. This is true in some ways throughout the entire region with members of a Chinese milk company being sentenced to death for letting contaminated milk get by. While the consequences might not be as high, companies in the region tend to strive to maintain a good reputation amongst the people.


What???

How is you post relevant to this thread.  Are you really triying to compare a Japanese computer hardware company like Topre with Chinese milk dairies becasue they are in the same region (i.e. Asia)?

Yikes.
Emperor of the IBM 84-key AT Model F Darkside

Offline ch_123

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« Reply #62 on: Mon, 28 December 2009, 06:12:26 »
Quote from: maxlugar;145829
How is you post relevant to this thread.


It's an MS Windows post! Relevance is irrelevant!

Offline Rajagra

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« Reply #63 on: Mon, 28 December 2009, 12:26:00 »
Besides, there's no point dying over spoilt milk.

Offline ch_123

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« Reply #64 on: Mon, 28 December 2009, 12:31:58 »
*drum roll*

Offline microsoft windows

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« Reply #65 on: Mon, 28 December 2009, 13:23:13 »
Quote from: ch_123;145856
It's an MS Windows post! Relevance is irrelevant!


I was using an anecdote to explain a possible cause of the high price and quality of Topre keyboards. TO sum it up in a nut shell, in that culture, it is important to have a good reputation.
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Offline ch_123

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« Reply #66 on: Mon, 28 December 2009, 13:56:25 »
That, or some very corrupt officials were facilitating companies selling such substandard produce, and the Chinese government needed to sweep it under the rug so people wouldn't ask any questions.

Offline Xuan

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« Reply #67 on: Mon, 28 December 2009, 20:53:56 »
It's funny how almost every windows post is followed by a ch_123 one replying to it :D

Offline ch_123

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« Reply #68 on: Tue, 29 December 2009, 03:39:59 »
I think of it as restoring balance to the world.

Offline ricercar

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« Reply #69 on: Tue, 29 December 2009, 04:18:00 »
I trolled Geekhack and all I got was an eponymous SPOS.

Offline itlnstln

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« Reply #70 on: Tue, 29 December 2009, 08:56:30 »
Thanks for your help.


Offline ch_123

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« Reply #71 on: Sun, 10 January 2010, 07:58:58 »
Any follow up thoughts GenEric?

Quote
yup, just like all the rubber dome keyboard, you can press the key until the dome collapse and give you a 'tactile' feedback, then release the key without it registering anything

Not on my one!

Quote
it's just something I will get use to, but I was disapointed at how customizable the dip switches were, it allows to assign fn to left alt and/or left windows key, but the right alt and right windows key are just hardcoded there

Because there's a dedicated Fn above the right Alt?
« Last Edit: Sun, 10 January 2010, 08:02:01 by ch_123 »

Offline GenEric35

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« Reply #72 on: Mon, 11 January 2010, 18:53:44 »
Quote from: ch_123;149762
Any follow up thoughts GenEric?



Not on my one!



Because there's a dedicated Fn above the right Alt?




above the right alt? if we're talking about the same Fn it's 2 inches to the right and one row above, try to reach that with your thumb

the idea is that Fn is pressed with the pinky, and there is a bunch of keys in the upper right that are pressed with the pinky, and some of them require that Fn key to be held down

it's perfect like it is, for someone who types with 2 fingers
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Offline ch_123

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« Reply #73 on: Mon, 11 January 2010, 19:04:57 »
Mhmm, now that you say it, it would be much better beside the right Alt alright.

Offline GenEric35

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« Reply #74 on: Mon, 11 January 2010, 20:00:35 »
Quote from: webwit;150164
The HHKB function key layout is designed for "clawing". Move your index finger to a cursor key, and your pinky hovers over the Fn key. If you want to touch type, you need to assign the second Fn key left of the space bar. I have that, and use both Fn's. FWIIW, some ergo "experts" say clawing is bad because there's more stress to the hand. I agree the HHKB is not much of a Hacker's keyboard because of lack of configuration options and configurable extra keys at the bottom row (example: you want Colemak back space instead of Ctrl, even if you move Ctrl to the bottom row with software, you need to give up another important key). Apart from that the layout is a winner.


I would agree with that, the new location of the Ctrl(where caps lock usualy is) I think is better than the standard layouts that have it all in the bottom right corner
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Offline bigpook

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« Reply #75 on: Mon, 11 January 2010, 20:06:25 »
Esc right above Tab is nice too, as is Delete above Enter.
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Offline ch_123

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« Reply #76 on: Mon, 11 January 2010, 20:08:24 »
I have that key mapped to backspace. Are you an Emacs user?

Offline GenEric35

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« Reply #77 on: Fri, 22 January 2010, 21:18:03 »
EDIT: 1 Month in, for some reason the keys started feeling more comfortable, probably what is referred to as good feeling of oneness with cup rubber.
I guess the keyboard grow on me as time went by and I'll keep it.
My current position on it is it cost a lot, too much, at this price PFU should bundle it with key puller, roof, wrist rest and carrying case, or sell it the same price as the good mechanical keyboards.
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Offline cheater1034

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Just got my hhkb pro2, @250$ the last zero was clearly a typo
« Reply #78 on: Fri, 22 January 2010, 21:32:49 »
I just got my filco cherry brown tenkeyless, I almost ordered a hhkb pro instead, but I'm glad I didn't because this filco is everything I could have hoped for of the hhkb :D - and much cheaper
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Current Keyboard: Filco FKBN87M/EB (Brown Cherry)

Offline patrickgeekhack

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« Reply #79 on: Fri, 22 January 2010, 21:57:42 »
Quote from: GenEric35;153144
EDIT: 1 Month in, for some reason the keys started feeling more comfortable, probably what is referred to as good feeling of oneness with cup rubber.
I guess the keyboard grow on me as time went by and I'll keep it.
My current position on it is it cost a lot, too much, at this price PFU should bundle it with key puller, roof, wrist rest and carrying case, or sell it the same price as the good mechanical keyboards.


I'm glad to hear that the keyboard grew on you. Enjoy!

Offline ch_123

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« Reply #80 on: Sat, 23 January 2010, 05:07:42 »
Quote from: cheater1034;153146
I just got my filco cherry brown tenkeyless, I almost ordered a hhkb pro instead, but I'm glad I didn't because this filco is everything I could have hoped for of the hhkb :D - and much cheaper


How do you know that unless you've tried it?

Offline cheater1034

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« Reply #81 on: Sat, 23 January 2010, 08:13:38 »
Quote from: ch_123;153195
How do you know that unless you've tried it?

I didn't say the hhkb/topre was bad or good - I just said the cherry brown filco is about what I hoped the hhkb would be (i never tried cherry browns before either) - The hhkb/topre could certainly be better but I wasn't expecting better so i'm satisfied.
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Current Keyboard: Filco FKBN87M/EB (Brown Cherry)

Offline lal

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« Reply #82 on: Sat, 23 January 2010, 09:13:15 »
Quote from: ch_123;153195
How do you know that unless you've tried it?

He said that his hopes were fulfilled by the Filco, which means it is exactly what he wanted.  He obviously doesn't want to spend hundreds of dollars just to see if a Topre *might* be even better.  Not everyone can throw around that much money out of curiosity.
BS: Customizer, Model Ms; Alps: CSK-2101, FK-2002, AT-101 (SGI & Dell), MCK-860, FKBN87Z/EB; Cherry: Poker X, FKBN87MC/EB, WY60, G80-3000, G84-4100, TDV 5010

Offline lal

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« Reply #83 on: Sat, 23 January 2010, 09:14:00 »
Bad timing, but there you have it :)
BS: Customizer, Model Ms; Alps: CSK-2101, FK-2002, AT-101 (SGI & Dell), MCK-860, FKBN87Z/EB; Cherry: Poker X, FKBN87MC/EB, WY60, G80-3000, G84-4100, TDV 5010

Offline leos

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Just got my hhkb pro2, @250$ the last zero was clearly a typo
« Reply #84 on: Sat, 23 January 2010, 10:23:29 »
GenEric35 if you are happy now with your HHKB2 Pro please switch this :juggle: in your signature to at least this one :smile:

We dont wanna give the anti-anti and x anti topre league more food against Topres "good feeling of oneness with cup rubber"
« Last Edit: Sat, 23 January 2010, 10:34:20 by leos »
HHKB 2 Pro Black in use :typing:

Offline GenEric35

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Just got my hhkb pro2, @250$ the last zero was clearly a typo
« Reply #85 on: Sat, 23 January 2010, 20:55:25 »
hey i'm juggling witht he idea of dying the keys, here ill change it to this cuz it moves :P:target:
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Offline rdjack21

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Just got my hhkb pro2, @250$ the last zero was clearly a typo
« Reply #86 on: Sat, 23 January 2010, 21:27:39 »
Here I'll help motivate you:


You will note that even the F and J keys have been dyed to a slightly darker color.

NOTE: I can't take credit for the dye job on this board but I have to admit it looks fantastic.
Keyboards
Topre Capacitive: Realforce 87U, Realforce 86U, HHKB Pro 2, Topre MD01B0, Topre HE0100, Sun Short Type, OEM NEO CS (x2), NISSHO Electronics KB106DE
Buckling Spring: IBM Model M Space Saver (1291472), Unicomp Customizer x 2
Cherry Brown: Filco FKBN87M/EB, Compaq MX11800
Black Alps: ABS M1
Not so great boards Rare Spring over dome OKI, Sun rack keyboard

Trackballs - Trackman Wheel (3), Trackman marble (2)
Keyboards I still want to get - Happy Hacking Keyboard Pro 2 the White version, Realforce 23U number pad in black and maybe white, μTRON ergo board with Topre switches.
Previously owned - [size=0]SiiG MiniTouch (White Alps), Scorpius M10 (Blue Cherry), IBM Model M13[/size]

Offline OldBoy

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HHKB Summary
« Reply #87 on: Mon, 25 January 2010, 18:47:37 »
Reading through the thread, although I don't own an HHKB, I felt the need to summarize why it might be valuable, and to attempt to justify why it might cost what it does.

Layout: no windows key (feature or bug depending on preferences), placement of ctrl, backspace etc.

Switches:  capacitative is cool.  Patent leads to higher prices.

Rubber: superior grade vs. ordinary rubber cup.

Key Weights: 45g uniform.  Deemed ideal by some people.

Dip switches: offers some limited hardware-based flexibility.

Small form factor: takes up less room on desk, easier to carry, allows for optimal positioning of mouse or trackball.  Lighter than other topre boards.

Aethetics:  red esc key, possibility of blank keys, minimalism.

Quality build: as shown by tear-down by ripster in other posts.  Importance of quality control to Topre corp.

Japaneseness/Geek cred/Oneness with cup-rubber: other intangibles

Overall typing experience:  important when you really will max out the rated number of keystrokes of a board

Comparative cost of other baskets of goods: trips to RSI docs (or should I say first five minutes with an RSI doc), cost a nice dinner out (in many cities), cost of a parking ticket (in some cities)

If anyone has anything to add, I hope you will let me know.

Offline bigpook

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« Reply #88 on: Mon, 25 January 2010, 18:51:27 »
Thats a pretty thorough list, nice. But value is personal (?). If you think its worth the money then you buy it, right?
If you think its overpriced and pretentious, then you pass.

That usually works for me. I should add the the price paid has very little to do with what I think the widget actually cost to manufacture. I am thinking there is a pretty fat margin on the HHKB and the Realforce.

And yes, the HHKB is a sweet keyboard.
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Offline bigpook

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« Reply #89 on: Mon, 25 January 2010, 18:53:56 »
dude, respect the 10 post rule...damn. : )
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Offline elbowglue

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Just got my hhkb pro2, @250$ the last zero was clearly a typo
« Reply #90 on: Mon, 25 January 2010, 18:58:12 »
You should seriously consider Topre realforce as well.  You can always map keys to HHKB layout using autohotkey, and have a lot of extra keys to play with.  This is what I would do if I wanted to do the HHKB, I would buy a Realforce 87u, map keys to HHKB...  it is a little bigger, but the biggest complaint about the HHKB pro is the lack of arrow keys, which you could have with the 87u.
My keyboards: Filco Cherry Blue Tenkeyless(daily home), Compaq MX11800 (modded to blacks), Compaq "MX 84u",  Wellington\'s Dampened Endurapro, Pinkalicious Filco Blue Cherry, Chicony KB-5191, Chicony KB-5181, Desko MOS 5023 UP "elbowglue" spos (modded to blues), Siig Minitouch (monterey blue), SMK-88 (blue cherries), Ricercar SPOS
Smallest to biggest keyboards in inches (Length X Height) - Length is most important for a midline mouse position

KBC Poker: 11.6 x 3.9 - HHKB: 11.6 x 4.3 - Siig Minitouch (Geekhack Space Saver): 11.6 x 6 - Deck/Tg3 82: 12 x 6 - Noppoo Choc Mini 12.4 x 5.3 - Compaq "MX 84u": 13.1 x 7.5 - Filco Tenkeyless: 14 x 5.3 - Cherry "ricercar spos" G86-62410EUAGSA: 14 x 7.75 - Topre Realforce 86u: 14.4 x 6.65 - Desko "elbowglue spos" MOS 5023 UP: 14.5 x 8.4 - IBM Model M Spacesaver: 15.3 x 7 - G80-1800: 15.9 x 7.1 - Adesso MKB-125B: 16 x 7.3 - Compaq Mx11800, Cherry G80-11900: 16.25 x 7.5 - Filco Standard: 17.3 x 5.4 - Unicomp Endurapro: 17.9 x 7.1 - Adesso MKB-135B: 18.3 x 6.0 - Cherry G80-3000: 18.5 x 7.6 - IBM Model M, Unicomp Customizer: 19.3 x 8.27

Offline cheater1034

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« Reply #91 on: Mon, 25 January 2010, 18:58:35 »
I don't understand why people hate the windows key so much - it has a purpose in windows - and you can certainly map it to do some other useful tasks if it was desired.

It has plenty of uses, conventional or non-conventional, and it isn't at all obstrusive (either get a bigger space bar or an unsightly space on both sides of the bottom of the keyboard - yuck)

Having a problem with the windows logo is different, but people should either fix that or ignore it - but either way stop complaining.
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IRC: irc.rizon.net #zen-sources
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Current Keyboard: Filco FKBN87M/EB (Brown Cherry)

Offline bigpook

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« Reply #92 on: Mon, 25 January 2010, 19:03:23 »
Its not so much the key, its just the logo. But yeah, get over it.
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Offline bigpook

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« Reply #93 on: Mon, 25 January 2010, 20:58:17 »
whats the deal with the arrow keys?
Fn + up/down works fine for me. You got to lose something with the small form factor, but is
it really a bother with the two key combo?
HHKB Pro 2 : Unicomp Spacesaver : IBM Model M : DasIII    

Offline rdjack21

  • Posts: 896
Just got my hhkb pro2, @250$ the last zero was clearly a typo
« Reply #94 on: Mon, 25 January 2010, 22:24:31 »
Quote from: ripster;153750

- no arrow keys, no arrow keys, no arrow keys.   Unless you're Japanese.  Clear roundeye discrimination.


Yea but then you have to put up with the short right shift key which is really a pain in the a**. I know I have a few boards with the same layout in that area of the board and the small shift key continues to give me issues even though I have been typing on them for a few months now.
Keyboards
Topre Capacitive: Realforce 87U, Realforce 86U, HHKB Pro 2, Topre MD01B0, Topre HE0100, Sun Short Type, OEM NEO CS (x2), NISSHO Electronics KB106DE
Buckling Spring: IBM Model M Space Saver (1291472), Unicomp Customizer x 2
Cherry Brown: Filco FKBN87M/EB, Compaq MX11800
Black Alps: ABS M1
Not so great boards Rare Spring over dome OKI, Sun rack keyboard

Trackballs - Trackman Wheel (3), Trackman marble (2)
Keyboards I still want to get - Happy Hacking Keyboard Pro 2 the White version, Realforce 23U number pad in black and maybe white, μTRON ergo board with Topre switches.
Previously owned - [size=0]SiiG MiniTouch (White Alps), Scorpius M10 (Blue Cherry), IBM Model M13[/size]

Offline ch_123

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« Reply #95 on: Tue, 26 January 2010, 03:56:14 »
Quote from: OldBoy;153717
Switches:  capacitative is cool.  Patent leads to higher prices.


They're manufactured by the people who own the patent, so it's really combination high build quality, limited numbers and just being priced high.

Offline kishy

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Just got my hhkb pro2, @250$ the last zero was clearly a typo
« Reply #96 on: Tue, 26 January 2010, 04:35:35 »
Quote from: ch_123;153765
They're manufactured by the people who own the patent, so it's really combination high build quality, limited numbers and just being priced high.

You forgot, "the company thinks people are big enough suckers to pay exorbitant amounts of money for something that costs a fraction of the price to build".

Yay, my first-ever anti-Topre comment!

Edit:
It's not MY belief that you're a sucker if you pay for Topre. It's my belief that the manufacturer thinks you are...not quite the same.
« Last Edit: Tue, 26 January 2010, 04:38:46 by kishy »
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Offline rdjack21

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« Reply #97 on: Tue, 26 January 2010, 08:31:46 »
Quote from: kishy;153772

Yay, my first-ever anti-Topre comment!

Edit:
It's not MY belief that you're a sucker if you pay for Topre. It's my belief that the manufacturer thinks you are...not quite the same.


LOL I guess I one of the biggest suckers out there then because I have quite a few of them :) And intend to get a few more :)
Keyboards
Topre Capacitive: Realforce 87U, Realforce 86U, HHKB Pro 2, Topre MD01B0, Topre HE0100, Sun Short Type, OEM NEO CS (x2), NISSHO Electronics KB106DE
Buckling Spring: IBM Model M Space Saver (1291472), Unicomp Customizer x 2
Cherry Brown: Filco FKBN87M/EB, Compaq MX11800
Black Alps: ABS M1
Not so great boards Rare Spring over dome OKI, Sun rack keyboard

Trackballs - Trackman Wheel (3), Trackman marble (2)
Keyboards I still want to get - Happy Hacking Keyboard Pro 2 the White version, Realforce 23U number pad in black and maybe white, μTRON ergo board with Topre switches.
Previously owned - [size=0]SiiG MiniTouch (White Alps), Scorpius M10 (Blue Cherry), IBM Model M13[/size]

Offline patrickgeekhack

  • Posts: 1460
Just got my hhkb pro2, @250$ the last zero was clearly a typo
« Reply #98 on: Tue, 26 January 2010, 08:45:49 »
Quote from: rdjack21;153793
LOL I guess I one of the biggest suckers out there then because I have quite a few of them :) And intend to get a few more :)


Self-proclaimed biggest sucker?

Offline ch_123

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« Reply #99 on: Tue, 26 January 2010, 08:48:19 »
Quote from: kishy;153772
You forgot, "the company thinks people are big enough suckers to pay exorbitant amounts of money for something that costs a fraction of the price to build".


Wow, you're right. I better stop buying... everything?

Offline lal

  • Posts: 360
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« Reply #100 on: Tue, 26 January 2010, 09:14:38 »
Quote from: ch_123;153795
Wow, you're right. I better stop buying... everything?


Point is: prices for quality keyboards (Unicomp, Cherry G80) are somewhere around 60 bucks, which seems to be reasonable compared to "quality" rubber domes for 30 bucks, because mechanical boards have higher production costs for parts and assembly.  Asking maybe up to 100 bucks for a Topre because of hq materials, rigid quality control and a personal prayer for each board leaving the factory might be acceptable.  But three times that much is simply obscene.
BS: Customizer, Model Ms; Alps: CSK-2101, FK-2002, AT-101 (SGI & Dell), MCK-860, FKBN87Z/EB; Cherry: Poker X, FKBN87MC/EB, WY60, G80-3000, G84-4100, TDV 5010

Offline kishy

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Just got my hhkb pro2, @250$ the last zero was clearly a typo
« Reply #101 on: Tue, 26 January 2010, 09:19:45 »
Quote from: lal;153798
Point is: prices for quality keyboards (Unicomp, Cherry G80) are somewhere around 60 bucks, which seems to be reasonable compared to "quality" rubber domes for 30 bucks, because mechanical boards have higher production costs for parts and assembly.  Asking maybe up to 100 bucks for a Topre because of hq materials, rigid quality control and a personal prayer for each board leaving the factory might be acceptable.  But three times that much is simply obscene.


Bingo.

Jeez, I'm saying 'bingo' a lot lately.
Enthusiast of springs which buckle noisily: my keyboards
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Offline itlnstln

  • Posts: 7048
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« Reply #102 on: Tue, 26 January 2010, 10:33:13 »
VGA???  Sheeeeeeeit, only mono dumb terminals here.  The graphics department uses CGA.


Offline kishy

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Just got my hhkb pro2, @250$ the last zero was clearly a typo
« Reply #103 on: Tue, 26 January 2010, 10:36:44 »
Quote from: ripster;153815
You cheap guys are small minded and need to take a systems view.  As long as the keyboard costs less than the video card I'm happy.

Now, I expect all the VGA FTW posts to come rolling in......


This still works in my favour.

$30 GeForce 7600GS 512MB AGP8x

And yes, that has DVI.
Enthusiast of springs which buckle noisily: my keyboards
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Offline Rajagra

  • Posts: 1930
Just got my hhkb pro2, @250$ the last zero was clearly a typo
« Reply #104 on: Tue, 26 January 2010, 10:43:56 »
Quote from: itlnstln;153817
VGA???  Sheeeeeeeit, only mono dumb terminals here.  The graphics department uses CGA.


Hackers use Hercules and CGA cards in the same box.

It was the prototype for SLI!!!

Offline kishy

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Just got my hhkb pro2, @250$ the last zero was clearly a typo
« Reply #105 on: Tue, 26 January 2010, 10:49:14 »
Quote from: ripster;153821
See.

But at least I got you up from $5 to $30 :wink:.


Perhaps.

Or perhaps I did that myself with the $22 M5-2.

Damnit, my values are corrupting!
Enthusiast of springs which buckle noisily: my keyboards
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Offline kriminal

  • Posts: 424
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« Reply #106 on: Tue, 26 January 2010, 11:53:07 »
Quote from: kishy;153818
This still works in my favour.

$30 GeForce 7600GS 512MB AGP8x

And yes, that has DVI.


eeeeeewwww 7600gs  ...vomit

*runs*
Geekhacked Filco FKBN87M/EB modified with Brown, black and blue cherries, doubleshot keycaps
Deck KBA-BL82 with Black cherries
Cherry G84-4100LCMDK-0 Cherry ML switches
Cherry G80-8200hpdus-2 Brown cherries
IBM Lexmark 51G8572 Model M Keyboard
Geekhacked Siig Minitouch KB1948
IBM Model M Mini 1397681

Offline kishy

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Just got my hhkb pro2, @250$ the last zero was clearly a typo
« Reply #107 on: Tue, 26 January 2010, 12:00:27 »
Quote from: kriminal;153836
eeeeeewwww 7600gs  ...vomit

*runs*


I dunno, 200fps in CS:Source, 30-60 in GMod...certainly good enough for me.
Enthusiast of springs which buckle noisily: my keyboards
Want to learn about the Kishsaver?
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Offline kriminal

  • Posts: 424
Just got my hhkb pro2, @250$ the last zero was clearly a typo
« Reply #108 on: Tue, 26 January 2010, 12:06:17 »
back on topic though im still wants me a topre!! however im a bit torn as to whether to try the HHKB or the realforce..
Geekhacked Filco FKBN87M/EB modified with Brown, black and blue cherries, doubleshot keycaps
Deck KBA-BL82 with Black cherries
Cherry G84-4100LCMDK-0 Cherry ML switches
Cherry G80-8200hpdus-2 Brown cherries
IBM Lexmark 51G8572 Model M Keyboard
Geekhacked Siig Minitouch KB1948
IBM Model M Mini 1397681

Offline lal

  • Posts: 360
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« Reply #109 on: Tue, 26 January 2010, 12:13:01 »
I assume this comment was directed at me personally, too.

Quote from: webwit;153803
I can't afford a HHKB,


I could.

Quote
so it is obscene,


Nope, asking 300 bucks for a rubber dome is.

Quote
Topre sucks


Didn't say that.

Quote
and the users are idiots.


Neither that.

Quote
So I'm superior after all,


Nor that.
BS: Customizer, Model Ms; Alps: CSK-2101, FK-2002, AT-101 (SGI & Dell), MCK-860, FKBN87Z/EB; Cherry: Poker X, FKBN87MC/EB, WY60, G80-3000, G84-4100, TDV 5010

Offline lal

  • Posts: 360
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« Reply #110 on: Tue, 26 January 2010, 12:17:46 »
Quote from: ripster;153815
You cheap guys are small minded and need to take a systems view.  As long as the keyboard costs less than the video card I'm happy.


That is just you.  I prefer rationality.
BS: Customizer, Model Ms; Alps: CSK-2101, FK-2002, AT-101 (SGI & Dell), MCK-860, FKBN87Z/EB; Cherry: Poker X, FKBN87MC/EB, WY60, G80-3000, G84-4100, TDV 5010

Offline kriminal

  • Posts: 424
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« Reply #111 on: Tue, 26 January 2010, 12:25:23 »
Quote from: ripster;153815
You cheap guys are small minded and need to take a systems view.  As long as the keyboard costs less than the video card I'm happy.

Now, I expect all the VGA FTW posts to come rolling in......


i agree with this comment seeing as the topre's cost less than my vid card...
:)
Geekhacked Filco FKBN87M/EB modified with Brown, black and blue cherries, doubleshot keycaps
Deck KBA-BL82 with Black cherries
Cherry G84-4100LCMDK-0 Cherry ML switches
Cherry G80-8200hpdus-2 Brown cherries
IBM Lexmark 51G8572 Model M Keyboard
Geekhacked Siig Minitouch KB1948
IBM Model M Mini 1397681

Offline ocdonkb

  • Posts: 112
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« Reply #112 on: Tue, 26 January 2010, 12:28:22 »
Quote from: kriminal;153840
back on topic though im still wants me a topre!! however im a bit torn as to whether to try the HHKB or the realforce..


I went with the Realforce, just didn't think the HHKB layout would work for me. And I'm not convinced with the whole "it's good for coding" argument.
| Filco Brown 87 key | Realforce 87U | Unicomp Spacesaver | IBM Model M | Cherry ML4100 | Dell AT101W | Focus 2001 |

Offline quadibloc

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Just got my hhkb pro2, @250$ the last zero was clearly a typo
« Reply #113 on: Tue, 26 January 2010, 12:31:48 »
Quote from: lal;153798
Point is: prices for quality keyboards (Unicomp, Cherry G80) are somewhere around 60 bucks, which seems to be reasonable compared to "quality" rubber domes for 30 bucks, because mechanical boards have higher production costs for parts and assembly.


The thing is, though, that those prices aren't really "reasonable"; actually, they're huge bargains. This is why in the early days of the PC, IBM's buckling spring keyboards were $200 instead of $50 - and prices were $150-$200 for pretty well everyone else's keyboards as well; even the rubber dome ones, which were built quite solidly.

Because of the competition from rubber dome keyboards starting at about $20, however, only those few manufacturers who can produce efficiently enough to produce quality keyboards for well under $100 - or who have a specialized niche market - can stay in business.

This is why there are only a limited number of brands of quality keyboards; if "just anyone" tried to make a keyboard with Cherry MX or ALPS switches, it would cost so much to make that they would have to charge around $200 for it to make a profit. It takes a big up-front investment to turn that around.

Offline ch_123

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Just got my hhkb pro2, @250$ the last zero was clearly a typo
« Reply #114 on: Tue, 26 January 2010, 12:32:51 »
Quote from: lal;153798
Point is: prices for quality keyboards (Unicomp, Cherry G80) are somewhere around 60 bucks, which seems to be reasonable compared to "quality" rubber domes for 30 bucks, because mechanical boards have higher production costs for parts and assembly.
 

Yawn. You do realize that a Topre is a more complicated mechanism than a buckling spring keyboard, right? I mean, in addition to having just about everything a buckling spring has, the Topre has a pile of capacitive contacts, and more complicated electronics to deal with it. Capacitive keyboards cost more than membrane keyboards, and that's not just for Topres.

Your main argument is that they have a rubber dome in the mechanism, but hey, Model Ms use the same contact mechanism as rubber domes. The Model M probably has more in common with a rubber dome keyboard than a Topre is. Obviously you were stupid to spend $100 on that Unicomp.
« Last Edit: Tue, 26 January 2010, 12:39:50 by ch_123 »

Offline kriminal

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« Reply #115 on: Tue, 26 January 2010, 12:39:03 »
Quote from: ocdonkb;153844
I went with the Realforce, just didn't think the HHKB layout would work for me. And I'm not convinced with the whole "it's good for coding" argument.


yeah i was siding with the realforce for that reason, still love the "minimalist" style of the hhkb though.
Geekhacked Filco FKBN87M/EB modified with Brown, black and blue cherries, doubleshot keycaps
Deck KBA-BL82 with Black cherries
Cherry G84-4100LCMDK-0 Cherry ML switches
Cherry G80-8200hpdus-2 Brown cherries
IBM Lexmark 51G8572 Model M Keyboard
Geekhacked Siig Minitouch KB1948
IBM Model M Mini 1397681

Offline lal

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« Reply #116 on: Tue, 26 January 2010, 13:25:33 »
Guys, what's so hard about admitting that Topre... grants itself quite a bigger profit margin than some other manufacturers?  Cherry G80, Filco Zero, ABS M1, Scorpius M10, Unicomp.  They all sell for 50 to 100 bucks *today*.  Topre is a mass producer, too.  If you want to tell me that producing a Topre board is more expensive than buying and soldering hundred individual switch modules then I'm out of the discussion immediately.

Topres are special in many different ways.  And if you want that and are willing to spend 300 bucks for it, that's totally okay.  Your decision, and if it's it worth it for you, fine.  Nevertheless the price is really exorbitant compared with the rest of the market.  No?
BS: Customizer, Model Ms; Alps: CSK-2101, FK-2002, AT-101 (SGI & Dell), MCK-860, FKBN87Z/EB; Cherry: Poker X, FKBN87MC/EB, WY60, G80-3000, G84-4100, TDV 5010

Offline microsoft windows

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Just got my hhkb pro2, @250$ the last zero was clearly a typo
« Reply #117 on: Tue, 26 January 2010, 13:31:58 »
Quote from: webwit;153803
I can't afford a HHKB, so it is obscene, Topre sucks and the users are idiots. So I'm superior after all, and it was a choice. This really says a lot about those people! Or about me..

I know plenty of smart people here who use their HHKB's. True, I think their layout is impractical, but I guess it's just more of a style that some people like. And they told me that the blank keys on some give them better practice at touch typing. Or they like the way they feel.

It's not my $250 that's being spent on each HHKB, and if someone's happy with it and it fits their needs, then that's good for them.

That layout just boggles my mind though. I don't understand how it's good for coding. If you were programming, wouldn't you want to have more keys so you can assign commands to them?
« Last Edit: Tue, 26 January 2010, 13:34:15 by microsoft windows »
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Offline kishy

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Just got my hhkb pro2, @250$ the last zero was clearly a typo
« Reply #118 on: Tue, 26 January 2010, 13:57:30 »
Quote from: lal;153864
Guys, what's so hard about admitting that Topre... grants itself quite a bigger profit margin than some other manufacturers?  Cherry G80, Filco Zero, ABS M1, Scorpius M10, Unicomp.  They all sell for 50 to 100 bucks *today*.  Topre is a mass producer, too.  If you want to tell me that producing a Topre board is more expensive than buying and soldering hundred individual switch modules then I'm out of the discussion immediately.

Topres are special in many different ways.  And if you want that and are willing to spend 300 bucks for it, that's totally okay.  Your decision, and if it's it worth it for you, fine.  Nevertheless the price is really exorbitant compared with the rest of the market.  No?


This is more or less what I was intending to convey.

I don't own one and I likely never will, so I can't and won't judge the mechanism. It seems, theoretically, inferior...but we know theory is not everything and reality can often be quite different. My stance on the mechanism is neutral.

I'm strongly inclined to believe that their profit margin is HUGE, however. Although they don't move a particularly large volume, I'd be astounded if the manufacturing costs were beyond 20 dollars per board.

Certainly they're entitled to a profit, but surely even the people here with the most money to throw around will agree it stops making sense after a point.
Enthusiast of springs which buckle noisily: my keyboards
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Offline microsoft windows

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« Reply #119 on: Tue, 26 January 2010, 13:59:18 »
They simply charge what people are willing to pay for them.
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Offline microsoft windows

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« Reply #120 on: Tue, 26 January 2010, 14:23:55 »
"According to Lexmark's Mr. McCall, low-priced Far East keyboard vendors 'are defining the lower end of the market, and I wish them a lot of luck, but we offer a better membrane keyboard, with better tactile feel, and a lot of service and market support here in the U.S. We offer Cadillacs, and are not the cheapest guys in the world.'"

So what's a $250 Topre when a $40 Model M's a Cadillac of keyboards?
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Offline Rajagra

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« Reply #121 on: Tue, 26 January 2010, 14:41:37 »
Quote from: microsoft windows;153892
So what's a $250 Topre when a $40 Model M's a Cadillac of keyboards?


It's a luxury yacht complete with helicopter pad and a bevy of scantily clad bathing beauties to fawn over you. Totally overpriced, of course, so anyone who enjoys such decadence is a fool. ?

Offline lal

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« Reply #122 on: Tue, 26 January 2010, 15:11:24 »
Wow, a multiline-flame *and* a link to an earlier post that proofs... something.  Webwit must be really angry :)
BS: Customizer, Model Ms; Alps: CSK-2101, FK-2002, AT-101 (SGI & Dell), MCK-860, FKBN87Z/EB; Cherry: Poker X, FKBN87MC/EB, WY60, G80-3000, G84-4100, TDV 5010

Offline quadibloc

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Just got my hhkb pro2, @250$ the last zero was clearly a typo
« Reply #123 on: Tue, 26 January 2010, 15:20:55 »
Quote from: webwit;153887
Can't we have a topic especially for people who don't own a Topre keyboard, yet want to post "expert" reviews of it,

Quote from: webwit;153887
Because if you can't have one, no one may enjoy one, right?

Given that the capacitative Model F is superior to the Model M, I see no problem in accepting that the Topre, due both to being capacitative, and having those springs under its domes, can be as good as people say it is.

The main accusation being levelled at the Topre in this thread seems to be that putting a spring under each dome, and using capacitative electronics, ought not to increase its marginal cost of manufacture all that much over that of a regular rubber dome... so it ought to be possible to buy a Realforce for less than a Unicomp.

Such a question doesn't have to come from sour grapes.

But there is still a valid answer.

Basically, the Topre design had a development cost. And the marginal cost of manufacture of a Topre keyboard is at least somewhat greater than that of an ordinary rubber dome.

Only if enough people appreciate the extra quality of a Topre to be willing to pay something extra for it - not its current price, but some premium - there's no point for them to try, by cutting prices, to expand from their current niche market, airport ticket counters and newspapers and so on, to make up for a reduction in unit margins by a significantly increased volume.

I guess a test might be this: when the Topre patents expire, do you seriously expect Logitech to run out and produce an imitation because they would think the improved feel would sell zillions? If so, it would make sense for Topre to cut prices and grow. If not, well, then it makes sense for them to stay where they are.

For that matter, haven't the Model M patents run out by now? Or at least the Model F patents, or the beam spring ones for the 3278 keyboard? Anyone out there making life tough for Unicomp? (Well, there was the infamous Mechanical Touch keyboard... but as the result achieved was apparently not a success, difficulties in execution may have been what kept that sort of competition at bay...)
« Last Edit: Tue, 26 January 2010, 15:35:58 by quadibloc »

Offline ricercar

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Just got my hhkb pro2, @250$ the last zero was clearly a typo
« Reply #124 on: Tue, 26 January 2010, 15:39:36 »
Disingenuous. Not straightforward or candid; giving a false appearance of frankness
I trolled Geekhack and all I got was an eponymous SPOS.

Offline ch_123

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« Reply #125 on: Tue, 26 January 2010, 15:58:51 »
Quote from: microsoft windows;153868
That layout just boggles my mind though. I don't understand how it's good for coding. If you were programming, wouldn't you want to have more keys so you can assign commands to them?

No? Programming is just like regular typing with more symbols (which have perfectly satisfactory locations anyway... The HHKB was designed for a command line based editor called Emacs which is notorious for it's RSI inducing key combinations. It was also based around the keyboard layout of Sun workstations, which many Unix types would have been reared on.

Quote
I'm strongly inclined to believe that their profit margin is HUGE, however. Although they don't move a particularly large volume, I'd be astounded if the manufacturing costs were beyond 20 dollars per board.

You know that small plastic ring you bought off Unicomp for $5... Do you think that even cost them 1c to make?
« Last Edit: Tue, 26 January 2010, 16:04:43 by ch_123 »

Offline MsKeyboard

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« Reply #126 on: Tue, 26 January 2010, 16:11:44 »
I can't believe how emotional this conversation has become, it's like listening to the arguments on French vs American wine.  The market is there to allow those products worthy of consumer appreciation to flourish, while other products, regardless of quality or innovation, stagnate and die.

Taking the price argument out of this discussion, what would you like to see changed or modified in the current Realforce lineup?

Offline ch_123

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« Reply #127 on: Tue, 26 January 2010, 16:16:34 »
Quote from: quadibloc;153908
The main accusation being levelled at the Topre in this thread seems to be that putting a spring under each dome, and using capacitative electronics, ought not to increase its marginal cost of manufacture all that much over that of a regular rubber dome... so it ought to be possible to buy a Realforce for less than a Unicomp.


Bare in mind that an XT Model F was anywhere from $350-400. A Model M when it came out was $250 and dropped to about $100 over time. I think that the circuitry involved with a capacitive switch keyboard is far more elaborate and therefore expensive than it might appear superficially.

Quote
For that matter, haven't the Model M patents run out by now? Or at least the Model F patents, or the beam spring ones for the 3278 keyboard? Anyone out there making life tough for Unicomp? (Well, there was the infamous Mechanical Touch keyboard... but as the result achieved was apparently not a success, difficulties in execution may have been what kept that sort of competition at bay...)


They didn't even get patents for the Beam Spring in the US... I really think that the thing was so overcomplicated that they didnt need to care.

Offline itlnstln

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Just got my hhkb pro2, @250$ the last zero was clearly a typo
« Reply #128 on: Tue, 26 January 2010, 16:18:23 »
Quote from: MsKeyboard;153933
I can't believe how emotional this conversation has become

Boys, boys, boys...


Offline kishy

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Just got my hhkb pro2, @250$ the last zero was clearly a typo
« Reply #129 on: Tue, 26 January 2010, 17:19:45 »
Quote from: ch_123;153925
You know that small plastic ring you bought off Unicomp for $5... Do you think that even cost them 1c to make?


IIRC I offered that before I was told it would cost anything.

Perhaps he would have assigned it a price, perhaps not.

They picked up the tab for my (couple of) international long distance calls...I look at it as me picking up the phone bill.
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Offline microsoft windows

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Just got my hhkb pro2, @250$ the last zero was clearly a typo
« Reply #130 on: Tue, 26 January 2010, 17:24:19 »
Quote from: ch_123;153937
Bare in mind that an XT Model F was anywhere from $350-400. A Model M when it came out was $250 and dropped to about $100 over time. I think that the circuitry involved with a capacitive switch keyboard is far more elaborate and therefore expensive than it might appear superficially.


Computers back then costed thousands upon thousands of dollars. And making circutry boards wasn't nearly as cheap as today. But that doesn't mean that it took $300 to  produce each Model F...
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Offline ch_123

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« Reply #131 on: Tue, 26 January 2010, 17:26:01 »
Quote from: MsKeyboard;153933
Taking the price argument out of this discussion, what would you like to see changed or modified in the current Realforce lineup?


It's sorta ... boring looking.



Compare that with a Filco. Say what you will about them, but they are an aesthetically pleasing design.

Offline Rajagra

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Just got my hhkb pro2, @250$ the last zero was clearly a typo
« Reply #132 on: Tue, 26 January 2010, 17:31:46 »
Quote from: ripster;153950
I think the DIP switches are pretty silly - SW3 disables numeric keypad? - isn't that what NumLock is for?


The switch controls whether NumLock switches on the embedded number pad. Important if you want to use an external numpad at the same time. You don't really want to hit NumLock every single time you move between the main keyboard and the numpad, do you?

Offline MsKeyboard

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« Reply #133 on: Tue, 26 January 2010, 17:47:08 »


We hope to improve our circumstances once the economy improves and everyone runs out of $15 Model M's.

Offline ch_123

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« Reply #134 on: Tue, 26 January 2010, 19:10:06 »
Quote from: microsoft windows;153953
Computers back then costed thousands upon thousands of dollars. And making circutry boards wasn't nearly as cheap as today. But that doesn't mean that it took $300 to  produce each Model F...


Try rereading what I said. One year they're selling keyboards at $350+. The next year they're selling pretty much the same thing minus capacitive contacts for over a hundred dollars less. There's two ways you can read that -

a) IBM suddenly became very altruistic.
B) The Model Ms were much cheaper to make and therefore could be sold at lower price whilst maintaining a similar profit margin.

Which one do you think it is?

Offline msiegel

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Just got my hhkb pro2, @250$ the last zero was clearly a typo
« Reply #135 on: Tue, 26 January 2010, 19:55:15 »
Quote from: ch_123;153998
Which one do you think it is?


umm.....

C) rubber dome?

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Offline ricercar

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Just got my hhkb pro2, @250$ the last zero was clearly a typo
« Reply #136 on: Tue, 26 January 2010, 20:29:13 »
re-debouncing: \
The 1990s McDonnel-Douglas stealth bomber version had a Motorola 68030 beneath every key, every switch, every button, coded for the purpose of ignoring keybounce.

Makes stiffened Cherry blacks on my TG3 Popo Keyboard seem like gradeschool.
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Offline patrickgeekhack

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Just got my hhkb pro2, @250$ the last zero was clearly a typo
« Reply #137 on: Tue, 26 January 2010, 20:51:04 »
Quote from: MsKeyboard;153933
I can't believe how emotional this conversation has become, it's like listening to the arguments on French vs American wine.  The market is there to allow those products worthy of consumer appreciation to flourish, while other products, regardless of quality or innovation, stagnate and die.

Taking the price argument out of this discussion, what would you like to see changed or modified in the current Realforce lineup?


Agree. I'm staying away from this discussion. Too emotional like you said. I'm just enjoying my Topre :-)

Offline nvarsj

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Just got my hhkb pro2, @250$ the last zero was clearly a typo
« Reply #138 on: Fri, 29 January 2010, 19:26:56 »
Quote from: microsoft windows;153868

That layout just boggles my mind though. I don't understand how it's good for coding. If you were programming, wouldn't you want to have more keys so you can assign commands to them?


That's what modifier keys are for.
HHKB2

Offline carmen

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Just got my hhkb pro2, @250$ the last zero was clearly a typo
« Reply #139 on: Tue, 02 February 2010, 06:50:35 »
Quote from: webwit;150164
I agree the HHKB is not much of a Hacker's keyboard because of lack of configuration options and configurable extra keys at the bottom row


bollocks, vi users use : or Esc for comands, Meta and Ctrl for emacs. and Ctrl is in a way better place

what lack of configuration options? u can remap in your terminal, in emacs, in xmodmap, the fact that DIP Switches exist for a few common settings is just icing on the cake

extra keys would dig into your palms, which can currently rest on either side of spacebar

Offline carmen

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Just got my hhkb pro2, @250$ the last zero was clearly a typo
« Reply #140 on: Tue, 02 February 2010, 07:06:21 »
Quote from: lal;153864
Guys, what's so hard about admitting that Topre... grants itself quite a bigger profit margin than some other manufacturers?


anything from japan costs about 5x as much as china. go to your supermarket, ogle the little 2 ounce tin of S&B mustard powder for $4. then look at the giant 24 ounce bag from china for 79 cents

china lowers the value of their currency to make production outsourcing attractive

also their workers are mostly a migrant resource. theres no lifetime employment and pension guarantees

with a fujitsu produced keyboard, you can rest assured some 93 year old guy is able to afford a bowl of noodles and take his grandkits out to lunch because of the 4 decades of work he put in