Author Topic: what do you think about ergo boards?  (Read 1118 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline bkgrnd

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 3
  • anything smaller than 40% is weird
what do you think about ergo boards?
« on: Mon, 11 March 2024, 14:06:22 »
ever since i saw the corne, scotto34 and the dactyl manuform ive wanted to make my own ergo board, so the hhkb handwired weirdness will wait. i want to make something with a layout similar to that of a scotto34 and corne, smooshed together. if you own an ergo board, or have made/used one in the past, id like to hear your opinion on it, layout and stuff like that. im still learning, my designing skills are those of a toddler, and i dont own a 3d printer yet so i cant really start making a case, nor do i have the parts like diodes and thick copper wire. any insight on ergo layouts will be highly appreciated.
current layout im thinking of is something like 3 rows of 6 keys and 1 row of 7 keys for both halves, and i do not like column stagger, because it just looks and feels weird to me, im sure after being even more obsessed with ergo boards ill give in and make a column stagger split handwired keyboard.
  thank you for reading, dear traveler

Online Findecanor

  • Posts: 5036
  • Location: Koriko
Re: what do you think about ergo boards?
« Reply #1 on: Mon, 11 March 2024, 14:20:45 »
I see that you are not a capitalist.

Offline Rhienfo

  • Posts: 595
  • Location: Melbourne, Australia
  • Why is everything I want here so expensive :(
Re: what do you think about ergo boards?
« Reply #2 on: Mon, 11 March 2024, 21:42:45 »
I've used an alice board, and it was really comfortable to type on, and probably better for your wrists. Would recommend everyone try out a ergo/alice.
fjell | hhkb bt

Offline Leslieann

  • * Elevated Elder
  • Posts: 4519
Re: what do you think about ergo boards?
« Reply #3 on: Tue, 12 March 2024, 06:59:28 »
Even if you ignore the 3d printer cost, building one isn't free and you still need all of the other things to make a keyboard work.
For pretty close to the plastic* you can buy a pcb based ergo keyboard to build up (Corne, etc.), I would recommend you start that way.  You'll get some experience and get to use it and see what all you want from your custom one. And if you go with a hot swap one (though it will cost more), you can re-use almost everything in another keyboard later.


*Yes I know they cost more than $20 or so. The odds of you buying/borrowing a printer and getting it right the first or second (or 5th) try is pretty slim, so you probably are not going to get away with just one roll of plastic. My 65% used half a roll each attempt, and while I have lots of experience, things get missed and the design evolves as you go. With little to no experience you're going to need even more as you need to figure out CAD, print settings, the printer, and there's the fact that larger prints are more difficult and prone to failure.
Novelkeys NK65AE w/62g Zilents/39g springs
More
62g Zilents/lubed/Novelkeys 39g springs, HK Gaming Thick PBT caps, Netdot Gen10 magnetic cable, pic
| Filco MJ2 L.E. Vortex Case, Jailhouse Blues, heavily customized
More
Vortex case squared up/blasted finish removed/custom feet/paint/winkey blockoff plate, HID Liberator, stainless steel universal plate, 3d printed adapters, Type C, Netdot Gen10 magnetic cable, foam sound dampened, HK Gaming Thick PBT caps (o-ringed), Cherry Jailhouse Blues w/lubed/clipped Cherry light springs, 40g actuation
| GMMK TKL
More
w/ Kailh Purple Pros/lubed/Novelkeys 39g springs, HK Gaming Thick PBT caps, Netdot Gen10 Magnetic cable
| PF65 3d printed 65% w/LCD and hot swap
More
Box Jades, Interchangeable trim, mini lcd, QMK, underglow, HK Gaming Thick PBT caps, O-rings, Netdot Gen10 magnetic cable, in progress link
| Magicforce 68
More
MF68 pcb, Outemu Blues, in progress
| YMDK75 Jail Housed Gateron Blues
More
J-spacers, YMDK Thick PBT, O-rings, SIP sockets
| KBT Race S L.E.
More
Ergo Clears, custom WASD caps
| Das Pro
More
Costar model with browns
| GH60
More
Cherry Blacks, custom 3d printed case
| Logitech Illumininated | IBM Model M (x2)
Definitive Omron Guide. | 3d printed Keyboard FAQ/Discussion

Offline bkgrnd

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 3
  • anything smaller than 40% is weird
Re: what do you think about ergo boards?
« Reply #4 on: Tue, 12 March 2024, 12:23:22 »
I've used an alice board, and it was really comfortable to type on, and probably better for your wrists. Would recommend everyone try out a ergo/alice.

alices dont look bad, i kinda like the layout, and are probably the better choice in my pursuit for a keyboard for now, because i can feel the carpal tunnel on its way to me.
if i dont choose anything, and end up bored one day, ill probably make 2 18 key macropads using pi picos, directwire the switches to the PIO pins, and use 2 usb ports for 1 keyboard so i can have U L T I M A T E split wired keyboard (satire, but probably wont be in the future)

Offline bkgrnd

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 3
  • anything smaller than 40% is weird
Re: what do you think about ergo boards?
« Reply #5 on: Tue, 12 March 2024, 12:26:10 »
Even if you ignore the 3d printer cost, building one isn't free and you still need all of the other things to make a keyboard work.
For pretty close to the plastic* you can buy a pcb based ergo keyboard to build up (Corne, etc.), I would recommend you start that way.  You'll get some experience and get to use it and see what all you want from your custom one. And if you go with a hot swap one (though it will cost more), you can re-use almost everything in another keyboard later.


*Yes I know they cost more than $20 or so. The odds of you buying/borrowing a printer and getting it right the first or second (or 5th) try is pretty slim, so you probably are not going to get away with just one roll of plastic. My 65% used half a roll each attempt, and while I have lots of experience, things get missed and the design evolves as you go. With little to no experience you're going to need even more as you need to figure out CAD, print settings, the printer, and there's the fact that larger prints are more difficult and prone to failure.


geez....... i didnt know that prototyping 3d prints wastes so much filament...... every day you learn something new......


Offline Leslieann

  • * Elevated Elder
  • Posts: 4519
Re: what do you think about ergo boards?
« Reply #6 on: Wed, 13 March 2024, 20:10:54 »
geez....... i didnt know that prototyping 3d prints wastes so much filament...... every day you learn something new......

It doesn't.

One of the biggest wastes of plastic is inexperience...
CAD is done in a virtual world, you can make screws without access, or worse, forget them entirely. When you work with say wood, you can test fit, hold it in your hands and see it's missing a screw hole just by looking at how the physical parts fit together. You can then add a hole, shave off a bit, etc.   In cad, you often work on a single part at a time and things can be missed and then you fire it off to a printer and you can't test anything (as a whole) until it's done, and you have limited ability to make corrections without redoing the cad and re-printing it all over again. On the good side, once you get it dialed (final prototype) you can then fire off numerous ones without issue. This was what 3d printing was initially meant for, get the details worked out and then send it to more traditional manufacturing methods.

The other reason 3d printing uses plastic is that you can easily get caught in revision hell.
If you make a keyboard in (again) wood, you make it and test as you go, want a second, you start over. Want a third, start over. You might make minor changes, but say you decide to change the whole shape, or want to add a screen, it probably requires starting completely over, whereas a 3d printer, just add it to your cad drawing and hit "print" and then wait (same with CNC milling). So what ends up happening is you make a design, pull it off the printer (after a couple prototypes) and decide that you don't actually need that extra key, so you remove it and print it again, it's easy, too easy. That one comes off and now you decide you actually do want the key, just slightly moved, so you make that change and fire it off again. This time you didn't get it quite right so nothing fits so you fix it and as you do you notice a way to simplify the design and make it print faster, great, change it and  hit print. That one comes off and you suddenly see that you dislike the shape or it just sits slightly off so you make a change and again hit print. By the time you get done you have 13 keyboards, some of which are usable but not great and one pretty much the way you want, you just got bored and decided it was close enough. There's probably a few print failures along the way (since it's a tough print), another ran out of filament because you forgot to swap the roll, forgot to clean the bed, etc...  In the end your keyboard only used 1/2 Kilo of plastic, but you used 6 kilos getting there and most of it was your search for perfectionism that caused it.

Frankly, that's how all manufacturing and prototyping is, you find problems and fix them and do it again until you get it close enough, the difference here is you can make revisions easy, fast and cheap, so you do. If it was costing you $500 and 6 months per revision you can bet good enough will be satisfactory rather quick but when it only costs $5 or $10 and it's waiting for you in the morning you can afford to be a perfectionist and so you do.

Other wastes of plastic is cheap printers...
A cheap printer may go 10-50 hours between needing adjustment/repair/filament jams/etc. It can increase some as you get to know the machine and that's fine for small parts but when you have prints that take 18-24 hours (like a Dactyl main body) that means every 2-3 parts is going to fail or require adjustment. Now imagine doing something like a 65% tub which can take 45 hours on a slow/cheap printer, what's the odds of it completing?* God forbid you try doing a print like my big machine handles, that would be closer to 300 hours.


*Honestly, it would fail for other reasons, mainly warpage but that's another discussion...
Novelkeys NK65AE w/62g Zilents/39g springs
More
62g Zilents/lubed/Novelkeys 39g springs, HK Gaming Thick PBT caps, Netdot Gen10 magnetic cable, pic
| Filco MJ2 L.E. Vortex Case, Jailhouse Blues, heavily customized
More
Vortex case squared up/blasted finish removed/custom feet/paint/winkey blockoff plate, HID Liberator, stainless steel universal plate, 3d printed adapters, Type C, Netdot Gen10 magnetic cable, foam sound dampened, HK Gaming Thick PBT caps (o-ringed), Cherry Jailhouse Blues w/lubed/clipped Cherry light springs, 40g actuation
| GMMK TKL
More
w/ Kailh Purple Pros/lubed/Novelkeys 39g springs, HK Gaming Thick PBT caps, Netdot Gen10 Magnetic cable
| PF65 3d printed 65% w/LCD and hot swap
More
Box Jades, Interchangeable trim, mini lcd, QMK, underglow, HK Gaming Thick PBT caps, O-rings, Netdot Gen10 magnetic cable, in progress link
| Magicforce 68
More
MF68 pcb, Outemu Blues, in progress
| YMDK75 Jail Housed Gateron Blues
More
J-spacers, YMDK Thick PBT, O-rings, SIP sockets
| KBT Race S L.E.
More
Ergo Clears, custom WASD caps
| Das Pro
More
Costar model with browns
| GH60
More
Cherry Blacks, custom 3d printed case
| Logitech Illumininated | IBM Model M (x2)
Definitive Omron Guide. | 3d printed Keyboard FAQ/Discussion