My research has been inconclusive. DotA gamer moving to mechanical KB needs help

[pankakes]

Hello everyone, I have been brought here by the /r/buildapc>/r/mechanicalkeyboards subreddits.

I am glad I have found this forum, as the discussions here have answered a lot of my questions already. After several days of research, I am still not satisfied with any of the keyboards I have stumbled upon.

I believe for a game like DotA, I am going to want either black or brown switches. I use reddit a lot, and type a lot on several forums, so I don't think reds would be for me. I have been leaning towards blacks, as I have found a handful of dota pros that seem to prefer the black switches. However, while reading this forum, I have seen that many of you SC2 players enjoy using brown switches over blacks.

I am switching over from a 12 year old dell keyboard. From what I have read, any choice is going to be a big improvement from this. I was initially drawn to reds, but it seems that the unanimous opinion on the reds is that they are the worst to type on. I do a lot of typing.

What I am looking for in a KB:

- Black Switches, maybe brown (Not so sure ^)
- Standard layout, but tenkeyless or not doesn't really matter.
- Not a mini-usb connector. I want it to last and would prefer a more solid setup.
- Lit keys would be ideal, but not necessary.

What originally got me looking into mechanicals was the Steelseries 6g v2, which uses black switches. My only gripe with that KB is the enlarged enter key, and movement of the \ key to next to the /. It's a small thing, but it would bug me.

I will keep looking around and will document my search here for others who may have the same desires. Please give me your thoughts on my search. Thanks

[TotalChaos]

I was initially drawn to reds, but it seems that the unanimous opinion on the reds is that they are the worst to type on. I do a lot of typing.

Uhhh no its not unanimous.  The ppl who don't like Reds are confused 

Reds are the best to type on.  Make sure u install 40A O-rings whichever switch u choose.

The deal is this: Most ppl have spent their whole lives typing on Rubber Dome keyboards that stupidly require you to jam a ton of force into every keypress.  Once u over come the initial resistance you free fall into the bottom of the keyboard with a big crash.  Ppl use these keyboards for many years then when they switch to Reds its this big difference and they have psychological problems adjusting to the extreme difference.  These ppl find that Browns also stupidly require you to put a bunch of extra force into the top of each keypress, then the pressure suddenly drops away, in a vaguely similar manner to a rubberdome.  Browns are like less extreme, more friendly rubberdomes.  They are easier to adapt to for sure.  But does that make them "better"?  I say no way.

If you had spent your whole life typing on Reds you would  think that browns, blues and blacks were just silly fads for keyboard companies to make extra money with.  Kaching!

In the end you will get whatever you want.  Get whatever makes you feel good.  Or do what Cherry wants you to do: Get all of them.  The more different keyboards you buy the more $$$ they take to the bank.

[pankakes]

Maybe I am getting mixed up, but I have read that blues are the best to type on. Part of me just wants to get blues and be super clackity clack

But in all seriousness, the way you describe browns definitely turns me off of them. I guess it would be between blacks and reds then.

I do use the membrane keyboard at the moment, and it is all I have known. I don't necessarily think of myself as heavy-handed on the keys, but I'm not light on them either. I definitely don't want to be getting more than one of these, at least not for now. Who knows, maybe I'd start collecting different types haha.

[Polymer]

I was initially drawn to reds, but it seems that the unanimous opinion on the reds is that they are the worst to type on. I do a lot of typing.

Uhhh no its not unanimous.  The ppl who don't like Reds are confused 

Reds are the best to type on.  Make sure u install 40A O-rings whichever switch u choose.

The deal is this: Most ppl have spent their whole lives typing on Rubber Dome keyboards that stupidly require you to jam a ton of force into every keypress.  Once u over come the initial resistance you free fall into the bottom of the keyboard with a big crash.  Ppl use these keyboards for many years then when they switch to Reds its this big difference and they have psychological problems adjusting to the extreme difference.  These ppl find that Browns also stupidly require you to put a bunch of extra force into the top of each keypress, then the pressure suddenly drops away, in a vaguely similar manner to a rubberdome.  Browns are like less extreme, more friendly rubberdomes.  They are easier to adapt to for sure.  But does that make them "better"?  I say no way.

If you had spent your whole life typing on Reds you would  think that browns, blues and blacks were just silly fads for keyboard companies to make extra money with.  Kaching!

In the end you will get whatever you want.  Get whatever makes you feel good.  Or do what Cherry wants you to do: Get all of them.  The more different keyboards you buy the more $$$ they take to the bank.

You obviously have never used browns...Which people find that browns require you to put  in a bunch of extra force at the top of each keypress and then the pressure falls away? (I have never heard that once) I'm sure that is just what you think based on some theory you have but certainly not based on any experience I've seen anyone have.  A few quotes:
"Browns feel like dirty reds"
"I can't even feel the tactile bump"

In fact, the whole reason why something like Ergo Clears exists is because the tactile bump on browns is very minimal. 

So for some, the minimal tactile bump is annoying because there isn't enough of it..they don't feel it enough so instead it feels scratchy (in which case they'd rather use reds)....For others, it just gives them that slight feedback when gaming so they know they've hit a button...

I'm not even advocating browns over reds..I think reds are fine for typing once you get used to them...but certainly how you describe them is completely inaccurate...

[dewcorps]

Greetings pankakes and welcome to GH. As a player of both the dotas and the starcrafts, as well as having tried pretty much every MX variant, I can honestly say that it will come down to personal preference. I use blues for gaming and typing, much to the dismay of those around me. The main thing is that it will be very subjective, and no matter how many pros use a certian swich, it will be no good for you if you dont like typing on it. If you cant come to an conclusion, just get browns as they will be a safe bet.

Also typing on reds is like typing on a cloud of boobs.

---edit---

On a related note, is Hashbaz or someone else doing a keypad tester?

[Sinzz]

Welcome to geekhack! You probably will be trying out all the switches now that you've joined this forum. I know I have been. And like people have been saying, it's all personal preference. Some like different switch types and prefer them over the other. I personally prefer the linear switches (blacks and reds) and have tried all of the mainstream switches aside from the new mainstream, green. I honestly think that browns are popular because of the feedback you get, but to me, they just feel too much like brand new rubber domes. Doesn't mean they're not nice to type on, just I prefer the smooth linear feel.

I say get blacks first, and from there, you can see if the feeling is what you like, and if you want something lighter, then go with reds. Or something with more feedback go with blues or browns. I think learning to type with blacks first will make it easier to learn to not bottom out. Good luck!

[TotalChaos]

Maybe I am getting mixed up, but I have read that blues are the best to type on. Part of me just wants to get blues and be super clackity clack

You could get blues but it seems to me that it makes more sense just to turn on clickykeys function in windoze.  There is such a function buried somewhere isn't there?

That way you can turn it off when u don't want it.

I definitely don't want to be getting more than one of these, at least not for now. Who knows, maybe I'd start collecting different types haha.

Once you join GeekHack its all over for you.  You are doomed to buy at least 12 different keyboards.  Abandon all hope, ye who enter here. 

[TotalChaos]

You obviously have never used browns...

I have used them a little.

I'm not even advocating browns over reds..I think reds are fine for typing once you get used to them...but certainly how you describe them is completely inaccurate...

I am not saying browns are as ridiculous as blues.  But u are required to put more energy into the keypress for no benefit.

When u type fast u crash into the bottom anyway and that tells your fingers to stop.  Also when u r frantically playing a game u always crash the key into the bottom anyway.  So u may as well do that in the most energy efficient manner.  Reds allow the most energy-efficient key activation.  As a gamer that's mainly what I care about.

But like I said, if you like browns then by all means use them.  They absolutely beat any rubberdome over membrane I ever typed on.
(I have not modded any rubberdome keyboards yet.  If I ever do then my opinion on this may change dramatically.)

[IvanIvanovich]

Right, it's all a preference. No switch is better or worse for any purpose at all. I like linear and clicky switch, and don't like the tactile ones (brown, clear) much. I also agree that stiffer switch could be a better start. My first MX board had blacks and I learned to feel the force ramping to avoid bottoming. I found them to be a little fatigue in long session though so after some reading I was misled into browns as the 'best' choice. I did not like them, they feel defective to me after linear. So I get red and they are my favorite overall for gaming and typing. But I also like clicky switch sometimes to mix it up.
So there you go, another opinion that probably dosen't make anything more clear for you

[Polymer]

You obviously have never used browns...

I have used them a little.

I'm not even advocating browns over reds..I think reds are fine for typing once you get used to them...but certainly how you describe them is completely inaccurate...

I am not saying browns are as ridiculous as blues.  But u are required to put more energy into the keypress for no benefit.

When u type fast u crash into the bottom anyway and that tells your fingers to stop.  Also when u r frantically playing a game u always crash the key into the bottom anyway.  So u may as well do that in the most energy efficient manner.  Reds allow the most energy-efficient key activation.  As a gamer that's mainly what I care about.

But like I said, if you like browns then by all means use them.  They absolutely beat any rubberdome over membrane I ever typed on.
(I have not modded any rubberdome keyboards yet.  If I ever do then my opinion on this may change dramatically.)

If you've used browns at all, you'd know that there isn't a lot of added force to press them down..not at all. Again, most people, if anything, wish they had MORE of a tactile bump because what is there is very slight.  Blues aren't that way either....the actual difference is only a few grams of force.  All three (Brown, reds and blues) all top out at around 60g when bottoming out. 

You do NOT, absolutely NOT have so much force to get over the tactile bump that it forces you to bottom out...it is nothing like a rubber dome or topre with regards to that.

[TotalChaos]

You obviously have never used browns...

I have used them a little.

I'm not even advocating browns over reds..I think reds are fine for typing once you get used to them...but certainly how you describe them is completely inaccurate...

I am not saying browns are as ridiculous as blues.  But u are required to put more energy into the keypress for no benefit.

When u type fast u crash into the bottom anyway and that tells your fingers to stop.  Also when u r frantically playing a game u always crash the key into the bottom anyway.  So u may as well do that in the most energy efficient manner.  Reds allow the most energy-efficient key activation.  As a gamer that's mainly what I care about.

But like I said, if you like browns then by all means use them.  They absolutely beat any rubberdome over membrane I ever typed on.
(I have not modded any rubberdome keyboards yet.  If I ever do then my opinion on this may change dramatically.)

If you've used browns at all, you'd know that there isn't a lot of added force to press them down..not at all. Again, most people, if anything, wish they had MORE of a tactile bump because what is there is very slight.  Blues aren't that way either....the actual difference is only a few grams of force.  All three (Brown, reds and blues) all top out at around 60g when bottoming out. 

According to the force graphs located at WASDkeyboards.com:
http://www.wasdkeyboards.com/mechanical-keyboard-guide
You must input 60g of force to activate a blue switch.
You must input 55g of force to activate a brown switch.
You must input 45g of force to activate a red switch.

If you feel that 10g or 15g is only a few grams and not noticeable then that  is ok, I respect your feelings on the matter.  But to me I notice it.  An impartial experiment of stacking nickels on the keyboard notices it too.

[pankakes]

OP here:

Thank you all for the warm welcome, I'm happy to see a discussion already well underway in this thread. I understand I will probably end up getting several boards, but for now I really want to just get one and stick with it for a while.

Blacks would be a safe bet for a first board? I do think the blues would be fun, but I don't know if I'd like them or not. If I went with the blues, it seems like I am going to either love it or hate it. At least that's what my take is.

I have been paying attention to the way I type lately. I type surely, but not super lightly. To put descriptive terms in, I would prefer something crisp to something fluffy. For example, I hate typing on standard laptop keyboards, the way its so soft and dull...

I don't really know! I appreciate the help with making an educated guess as to the ideal board for me. Please help me further along as I'd like to buy soon! I can do a review of whatever I get too.

[NikoGasm]

The reason a lot of pro players use Blacks is because the Steelseries 6Gv2 only had blacks until recently, and a lot of pro players use a Steelseries board. The ones who don't mostly use boards with Blues because Blues seem to be the preferred switch among non-keyboard enthusiasts.

I've gamed and typed on Blacks for an extensive period of time and my hands got very tired. Of course this wouldn't happen for everyone, but I believe it would be true for the majority of us.

After Blacks I switched to Reds and it felt perfect. It's not too heavy and the linear action makes each keystroke a breeze.

I think you should either go with Browns or Reds as your first. Personally I would recommend Red switches. Red and Brown aren't too far off from eachother, the main difference is the Brown has a slight bump where the Reds are smooth all the way down.

If you didn't want Reds for any reason, Browns are a perfectly reasonable option. I'm typing on them right now, and they're not horrible at all. They feel a lot like Reds, and are often described as "Dirty Reds" due to the slight tactile bump.

Browns and Reds both use 45g springs, so they take the same amount of force. It's just the small tactile bump in Browns that sets them apart.

[pankakes]

I guess I don't understand how big or little of a difference there is between 45g and 60g. I wish there was a pc parts store around where I could check it out. I live in the middle of the Adirondack Park, in NY. Not much around here other than some bears

I know my crappy membrane keyboard (or whatever you call it) has something of a feedback, right? If I push a key softly I can feel the point in which the key gives a little and the letter registers. Do I need that? I don't know. I don't feel like I notice it while typing regularly.

So in the land of reds vs blacks, I should try out reds first?

NikoGasm, I did really like the steelseries board except for that layout change. I'd rather have the standard key layout, whether its tenkeyless or full doesn't matter as much.

Being that you guys are the biggest keyboard enthusiasts I've ever seen you're probably good people to ask, does having lit keys really matter? I do usually game in low-light, but even with the lights off my monitor is huge (28'') so it lights up the keyboard anyway. I can always see the keys. I think I'd have more options available to me if I don't go for backlit keys, no?

So I guess the new list is:

- Red switches
- Really sturdy, no mini-usb plug
- Standard key layout, I like having the number pad but I would grab a tenkeyless if it was ideal for everything else.
- Plain frame with decent back risers to angle the board. I have a memory foam wrist rest that I'd prefer to use over the plastic wedges that are on some. If it's detachable, then it doesn't matter.

What are some brands I should be looking at? Are there any I should be avoiding? What sites do you guys usually shop from? I have just been googling things and lurking reviews and forums. If you have any keyboards that you would recommend, let me know. I really appreciate everyone joining in. It's always a pleasure to find a nice forum.


I am already going to have to order one with blue switches after I get this one, just for fun. I know it. You guys are sucking me in. But lets focus on the above wants for now 

[pankakes]

Also, what do you guys think of the ducky keyboards? They look great to me, except for that mini-usb connector. It just worries me. I don't want to have to so some mod to make sure its strong, I just want it to be bulletproof out of the box.

[Binge]

Also, what do you guys think of the ducky keyboards? They look great to me, except for that mini-usb connector. It just worries me. I don't want to have to so some mod to make sure its strong, I just want it to be bulletproof out of the box.

Mini USB is a great thing if you intend to move around/LAN.  Do not worry as many of us use detachable cables.  Sounds like what you need is a keyboard with cable routing.  The routing makes the cable stay secure while using a detachable cable.  Lots of companies offer that feature.  Ducky models are ok.  Backlighting can be nice.

[NikoGasm]

You should look at getting a QFR. They're fairly cheap, they'd work well with your memory foam wristwrest, they have great build quality, and they come in a variety of switches. Check it out here.

As for your question about Ducky keyboards:
I've used several Ducky keyboards (I'm using one right now) and I think they're outstanding. There are some known issues with the DK1087 dying on some people, but I had a DK1087 with Blacks for about a year and never saw a single problem.
The only gripe with going with a Ducky is they're pretty pricey.

As for backlighting:
I used to think having LEDs was really cool, and it is pretty neat, but honestly it seems pretty gimmicky after a while. Every board I've had that uses LEDs I end up turning them off. The only ones I actually like are the LEDs on the newer Ducky Shines and YOTD keyboards because of the reactive lighting mode.
But LEDs are not really a necessity, it's just a neat feature if you're into that sort of thing. No shame if you want it, no shame if you don't.

If you wanted to check out Ducky boards, you can find them here.

And for the TKL vs Fullsize thing, I'd just like to throw in some of my personal experience. When I first got into mechanical keyboards I thought I needed the number pad (as most people think). I used it a few times which gave me the mentality that I needed it. But when I got my DK1087 I quickly realized how seldom it was used, and when I did use it, it could easily be replaced by the number row. I much prefer TKL now. The compact form factor is really nice, it allows your mouse hand to be closer to the keyboard, which in turn allow for proper alignment with your shoulders. Overall I find it much more comfortable using a TKL versus fullsize. But this is also personal preference. Neither one is better than the other by any means.

[Polymer]

You obviously have never used browns...

I have used them a little.

I'm not even advocating browns over reds..I think reds are fine for typing once you get used to them...but certainly how you describe them is completely inaccurate...

I am not saying browns are as ridiculous as blues.  But u are required to put more energy into the keypress for no benefit.

When u type fast u crash into the bottom anyway and that tells your fingers to stop.  Also when u r frantically playing a game u always crash the key into the bottom anyway.  So u may as well do that in the most energy efficient manner.  Reds allow the most energy-efficient key activation.  As a gamer that's mainly what I care about.

But like I said, if you like browns then by all means use them.  They absolutely beat any rubberdome over membrane I ever typed on.
(I have not modded any rubberdome keyboards yet.  If I ever do then my opinion on this may change dramatically.)

If you've used browns at all, you'd know that there isn't a lot of added force to press them down..not at all. Again, most people, if anything, wish they had MORE of a tactile bump because what is there is very slight.  Blues aren't that way either....the actual difference is only a few grams of force.  All three (Brown, reds and blues) all top out at around 60g when bottoming out. 

According to the force graphs located at WASDkeyboards.com:
http://www.wasdkeyboards.com/mechanical-keyboard-guide
You must input 60g of force to activate a blue switch.
You must input 55g of force to activate a brown switch.
You must input 45g of force to activate a red switch.

If you feel that 10g or 15g is only a few grams and not noticeable then that  is ok, I respect your feelings on the matter.  But to me I notice it.  An impartial experiment of stacking nickels on the keyboard notices it too.

Yeap..I know exactly how much it takes for each..and they all bottom out at around 60g.  But NONE of them need so much force that there is a huge  fall off after the tactile bump that makes you bottom out.  That is you making that assumption based on something you've read and what is in your head, not on experience.  It is obvious because no one has ever described browns the way you have...

Since you don't have browns, you haven't had browns in the past and you have said you don't really have the capability to move around and try them, pretty sure you haven't touched one on a keyboard before...you're providing advice based on some assumptions you've made...

[jeroplane]

Haven't really read the rest of this thread apart from a light skim, but my input is this: choose the keyboard according to what you think will be most comfortable for typing. You will barely notice the switch type when playing Dota, and the game does not require large amounts of keyboard APM or double-tapping (except the occasional double-tapped ability/item) unlike games such as Starcraft. Honestly, IMO the keyboard does not matter at all in Dota. I think you will agree that a good mouse is most important in Dota.

The only potential issue is that Reds may be too light. Since your fingers are always resting on the hotkeys in Dota, there may be acccidental keypresses.

In terms of backlighting, have you ever found yourself looking down at the keyboard to hit hotkeys? Most people would say no. I'd say the backlighting would be distracting more than anything.

TL;DR: choose keyboard for typing, not Dota.

[qmdunn]

Go with Brown switches, you won't be disappointed.

[Larken]

imo I'd take any switch except black. blues if the high pitch clicks are your thing (not for me), browns if you like a bit of tactility (it's there but not really that obvious), or reds if you like linear. Reds are really light and immensely fun to type and game on, the only potential problem being that being so light, some heavy handed users  might be pressing the keys just by resting their fingers on the keys. But in the end, it all comes down to acclimatisation. Once you get used to how the switch feels, its not really a problem how light the keys are. In fact, I actually appreciate how light to actuate reds are after some extended use.

Blacks on the other hand, while easier to get used to coming from rubber domes, tend to be too heavy for my liking, after I've tried the other switches. I know its a difference of about 15g to actuate, but I've been using browns and reds for so long that I end up not using enough force on blacks and clears when I type fast (a result of learning how to use just enough force to actuate reds and browns). Not to mention that I actually feel the fatigue while using clears (100g springs apparently).

[NikoGasm]

Haven't really read the rest of this thread apart from a light skim, but my input is this: choose the keyboard according to what you think will be most comfortable for typing. You will barely notice the switch type when playing Dota, and the game does not require large amounts of keyboard APM or double-tapping (except the occasional double-tapped ability/item) unlike games such as Starcraft. Honestly, IMO the keyboard does not matter at all in Dota. I think you will agree that a good mouse is most important in Dota.

The only potential issue is that Reds may be too light. Since your fingers are always resting on the hotkeys in Dota, there may be acccidental keypresses.

In terms of backlighting, have you ever found yourself looking down at the keyboard to hit hotkeys? Most people would say no. I'd say the backlighting would be distracting more than anything.

TL;DR: choose keyboard for typing, not Dota.

You make some really good points here.

The keyboard should absolutely be chosen for typing rather than the game in this scenario. That's what keyboards were made for anyways.

And the concern about accidentally hitting keys with Reds, this is a valid argument. I personally have accidentally hit keys while playing LoL on my Reds. But that was when I had first started using them. As time went on I got past that.

[pankakes]

Solely from a typing point of view, I feel like I'd enjoy blues. I have heard it plenty, but never in person. Is it loud enough to be heard outside of a room?

The blues vs reds as far as gaming seems to be accidental omission of double taps vs accidental keypress.

I agree I would get used to anything over time. I just keep getting swayed by what I read or am told. I know nothing about these from personal experience, so it's all I have to go by.

With what I've just been told now I feel like going with the blues or browns.... ahhhhh!

I do think I will go with the Ducky Shine II though. Tenkeyless. Blue, Brown, or Red. Or maybe black? Haha.


As I type on my old dell board right now, I am comfortable. This is the keyboard I have used since I started gaming over a decade ago. I don't mind the little bit of resistance it gives, and never feel like my fingers are fatigued. I can also say that I have used several laptop keyboards in the past. I can remember using a mac laptop and being unsure if I enjoyed the softness of the keys, as they were easy to push and just seemed to bottom out. Maybe that provides a little bit of info. Again, I don't feel like I type exceptionally hard, but I definitely am not a feather on the keys.

[NikoGasm]

I just keep getting swayed by what I read or am told. I know nothing about these from personal experience, so it's all I have to go by.

I want to point out that all these great differences and crazy stories and rumors about each switch is honestly not that prevalent. People say it's harder to double tap on Blues. Yes, this may be true, but the degree of difficulty is so minute that only the most hardcore users would even notice if they paid attention to it. I've gamed on Red, Brown, Blue, and Black and the only one I had trouble with at any point was the Blacks just because I'm not a super heavy-handed typer.

What it all boils down to is what do you want? What experience are you looking for? Describe what it is you want and we can help identify what switch you want.

But remember that there's really not a great deal of difference among the switches, except for ones being linear or tactile. All these myths about these crazy ranges of force simply are not true. You can categorize it like this:

Light
Blue
Brown
Red

Medium
Black
Clear

Heavy
Grey
Green
White

That's it in a nutshell. The arguments about Browns have slightly more force past a certain point or Blues needing x much more force than Reds or whatever else people argue about is really just all technicalities and not that important.

[CPTBadAss]

OP, if you have a Best Buy near you, you can go and try out the Razer Blackwidow. The box has a cutout so you can play with the arrow keys. They have blues in them so you can at least judge how those feel to you. If you're lucky enough to have a MicroCenter near you, you should be able to try out reds, blues, and browns. I think the one nearest to me doesn't carry any boards with blacks so I haven't gotten a chance to type on those. But the one nearest to me has the following boards for sale: Ducky DK2008 which has red switches; Coolermaster QuickFire Rapid and Blackwidows which have blues; Coolermaster QuickFire Rapid and Cooler Master Storm Trigger and Logitech G710 which have browns. Even if they're boxed, if you ask, the sales people will probably let you try out a few boards. I've done this multiple times.

Otherwise, you can get the WASD sampler kit if you want to try out reds, blacks, blues, and reds. I know it's only one of each switch but you can at least try out and feel how each switch is. And it's cheap so you don't have to spend ~$50 on a cheaper board just to try it.

I like blues personally but I think that a switch type is a very personal thing. I'd hesitate on recommending you a certain one. Just try to type on as many as you can before you decide. And as someone mentioned before, switches might even feel different from board to board. My Filco feels different from the Blackwidow.

Anyways, good luck with your search ^_^

[KangarooZombies]

Just my two cents: I used to really like blues when playing dota style games. I use browns now, but honestly i'm so used to the browns by now im not sure if they're better for dota style gaming or i just have Stockholm syndrome. Anyway. Blues or browns are what i'll recommend for the time being, if for nothing else, for the reason that i do end up typing quite a bit in those style of games, and these two switches are the most comfortable for me to type on. Hope my rambling made some sense to one of you.  ^.^

[pankakes]

I do have a bestbuy near me. I'll have to check it out tomorrow. Thanks guys.

The more I look, the more I think I will just go with the Ducky Shine II tenkeyless. I hope it's the right choice. It just seems well constructed, and I have gotten over my main concern of the mini-usb connector.

I am leaning towards blues now. I feel like I would like having the feel of some kind of response, and I don't think the clicky would bother me. I will check out the razer keyboard at bestbuy, but I definitely wont be buying it.

Heading to bed now. I'll keep you all posted, and I'll follow up. If you have anything to add, keep it coming! I really appreciate the responses and opinions. It's making this decision a lot easier.

[KangarooZombies]

I do have a bestbuy near me. I'll have to check it out tomorrow. Thanks guys.

The more I look, the more I think I will just go with the Ducky Shine II tenkeyless. I hope it's the right choice. It just seems well constructed, and I have gotten over my main concern of the mini-usb connector.

I am leaning towards blues now. I feel like I would like having the feel of some kind of response, and I don't think the clicky would bother me. I will check out the razer keyboard at bestbuy, but I definitely wont be buying it.

Heading to bed now. I'll keep you all posted, and I'll follow up. If you have anything to add, keep it coming! I really appreciate the responses and opinions. It's making this decision a lot easier.

The ducky is a good board. Especially if you're looking for a backlit tenkeyless. Let us know how it turns out

[NikoGasm]

The more I look, the more I think I will just go with the Ducky Shine II tenkeyless. I hope it's the right choice. It just seems well constructed, and I have gotten over my main concern of the mini-usb connector.

I am leaning towards blues now. I feel like I would like having the feel of some kind of response, and I don't think the clicky would bother me. I will check out the razer keyboard at bestbuy, but I definitely wont be buying it.

Ducky Shine II is a great decision. Fantastic keyboard. I promise you won't be disappointed.

I'd say Blues are a good choice, but then again, all switches are a good choice. There's not one switch that's bad. I actually started on Blues, but later decided that I prefer linear switches. Maybe you'll follow suit, or maybe you'll go hardcore and switch to Greens or Whites.

[stonejoint]

I play dota a lot also typing. My first keyboard was blackwidow blue is not good for spamming keys but awesome for typing. After that I bought a qfr black. It is good for both typing and games but if you need at least 2-3 days to decide which switch is for you.

Atm I am using reds at home blacks at office. I need o ring for blacks to silence them a bit. and I am also happy with filco reds.

Btw you may regret from blacks but not from reds and browns

My next keyboard will be brown but cant decide layout and brand yet. Maybe I wait for wasd TKL or try kbp.

[Polymer]

I do have a bestbuy near me. I'll have to check it out tomorrow. Thanks guys.

The more I look, the more I think I will just go with the Ducky Shine II tenkeyless. I hope it's the right choice. It just seems well constructed, and I have gotten over my main concern of the mini-usb connector.

I am leaning towards blues now. I feel like I would like having the feel of some kind of response, and I don't think the clicky would bother me. I will check out the razer keyboard at bestbuy, but I definitely wont be buying it.

Heading to bed now. I'll keep you all posted, and I'll follow up. If you have anything to add, keep it coming! I really appreciate the responses and opinions. It's making this decision a lot easier.

Do you have anyone around you that might be annoyed by the blues?  That is one big reason people don't get them..they're just really loud.  For yourself you might actually find it very satisfying though...

[akuJIWA]

I would recommend brown switch really, typing and gaming wise.
I tried gaming on my blue switch, and it was hell compared to brown switch. Red switches are indeed nice, but I prefer typing on brown. Blacks are like typing on steel! Though, not bad for gaming too.

I'm a gamer too, playing dota 2 and diablo 3

[Saturn]

What originally got me looking into mechanicals was the Steelseries 6g v2, which uses black switches. My only gripe with that KB is the enlarged enter key, and movement of the \ key to next to the /. It's a small thing, but it would bug me.

Don't jump too quickly into the Steelseries 6gv2.  It's not bad, but Steelseries is a gaming company, and there are so many better options made by non-gaming companies who have been producing quality mechanical keyboards for ages.

Switch preference unfortunately comes down to personal taste.  Try to read the descriptions of the switch types and decide what you want in a mechanical keyboard switch.  There is a vast gulf of difference between linear and tactile, even at the same activation force.  I started out on Cherry browns and heard a ton of hype about the reds, so I gave them a try, and was surprised to find how incredibly different they felt.  Some people love the reds because of how smooth and soft they are to type on, but they just didn't feel right to me.  I came to realize that when I'm typing, my fingers look for that tactile bump, perhaps because of a lifetime of muscle memory built up expecting it.

One thing I will say about the reds... they feel wonderful for gaming.  Even those who dislike typing on them wouldn't disagree that they are a fantastic gaming switch.

[pankakes]

I have ordered the sample kit and plan on making it out to best buy eventually. The sample kit may take a little while to get here, USPS from Cali to NY.

[twilek]

Hey bro, welcome to geekhack, but I'm not the one to tell you that (ripster would but he ascended to the keyboard heaven in the sky), but either way, I would say with some degree of certainty that if you live in the U.S and care about price your safest bet would be to get a leopold of any color from www.elitekeyboards.com they have about every switch except for clear and green, I got my leopold from there, it works fine. So just get one!

[dachef]

I was initially drawn to reds, but it seems that the unanimous opinion on the reds is that they are the worst to type on. I do a lot of typing.

Uhhh no its not unanimous.  The ppl who don't like Reds are confused 

Reds are the best to type on.  Make sure u install 40A O-rings whichever switch u choose.

The deal is this: Most ppl have spent their whole lives typing on Rubber Dome keyboards that stupidly require you to jam a ton of force into every keypress.  Once u over come the initial resistance you free fall into the bottom of the keyboard with a big crash.  Ppl use these keyboards for many years then when they switch to Reds its this big difference and they have psychological problems adjusting to the extreme difference.  These ppl find that Browns also stupidly require you to put a bunch of extra force into the top of each keypress, then the pressure suddenly drops away, in a vaguely similar manner to a rubberdome.  Browns are like less extreme, more friendly rubberdomes.  They are easier to adapt to for sure.  But does that make them "better"?  I say no way.

If you had spent your whole life typing on Reds you would  think that browns, blues and blacks were just silly fads for keyboard companies to make extra money with.  Kaching!

In the end you will get whatever you want.  Get whatever makes you feel good.  Or do what Cherry wants you to do: Get all of them.  The more different keyboards you buy the more $$$ they take to the bank.

I hate when people say this.  There no such thing as a unanimous conclusion or definitive conclusion when it come to what switches go with what task or purpose.  It's all preference when it comes to switches and the purpose of the switches whether it's for typing, gaming or general use.

[Binge]

+1 to preference.  At work I type on blues, and at home I type on reds.  That switch type changes on whatever I'm feeling.  I will say blues are MY least favorite to game on.

[oneproduct]

For Dota I would recommend brown switches. If someone else already mentioned it I didn't see it, but one thing about the switches that's often mentioned for gaming is the linear vs tactile.

In FPS games, where you hold down on WASD rather than just tapping them, linear switches do well. For games when you hit the keys at very specific points only, brown switches are nice for the tactile feedback.

For gaming a lighter switch is probably favorable because of how long gaming sessions can last. That brings it down to browns and blues. Blues are sometimes criticized because they take longer to reset due to the mechanism that makes the clicky noise, which some people claim makes double tapping harder. I never experienced this myself, but I've heard others complain about it.

Overall, I'd go for brown switches. In terms of resale, black switches are the hardest to get rid of. From what I see in the classifieds section, brown and red are the easiest to resell (barring non-standard switches).

[CPTBadAss]

I have ordered the sample kit and plan on making it out to best buy eventually. The sample kit may take a little while to get here, USPS from Cali to NY.

Looking forward to hearing your opinion on which switches you like

[sugosugita]

Also typing on reds is like typing on a cloud of boobs.

WOW. First time hearing that analogy.

[pankakes]

Sorry for the hiatus, I just got some new parts in and I got distracted. Now I am on a i5 3570k, liquid cooled, on a brand new gigabyte HDD with a clean windows install :]

So I went to bestbuy and checked out the blackwidow. They only had the one with the blue switches, and I can see why some people would complain about issues when you are double tapping. I honestly expected the keys to have more of a tactile feel than they do. Not a bad thing, I just didn't expect it.

Also, great news! The sample kit from WASD keyboards came in today. I have one black, red, blue, and brown switch each now, along with 11 different color key caps and some o-rings. Would someone care to explain what I would want to use the o-rings for? I'm assuming its if you don't like the sound coming from bottoming out. There are different colored ones, do they vary in stiffness or is it just me?

Anyways, so the switches. Overall, there isn't as much difference between the keys as I imagined. However, I was immediately drawn to the red switch, and turned off by the black switch. The blacks are very stiff! My decision is just as I figured it would be, between the browns and the reds.

My initial fear was that the reds were going to feel insanely soft. They are noticeably the softest, but not overly so. I only have 1 of each switch, so I don't know how it would be full on typing on them, but the reds seem like my favorite. Why do some people say they hate typing on reds? That being said, the browns are really nice too. They are soft, and have just that tiny tiny bump with a much quicker reset than the blues.

Meh. Either reds or browns. Help me!?

[Saturn]

Why do some people say they hate typing on reds? That being said, the browns are really nice too. They are soft, and have just that tiny tiny bump with a much quicker reset than the blues.

The thing about the reds vs the browns (and I didn't even realize this would be an issue for me until I actually got a red keyboard and started using it full-time), is that the browns have a reduction in resistance after the tactile bump, whereas reds continue to increase resistance all the way to the bottom.  So, as a result, the moment at which you feel the most resistance is the exact moment at which you release the red switch.  Some people like that, because it lends the key a "springy" feel which sort of pushes your finger back up after you're done with the keystroke.

Personally, I dislike it.  It makes reds feel more fatiguing to me (slightly), despite the fact that they only take 45 cN of force to get to the activation point and browns require 55 to get over the tactile bump.

[TotalChaos]

Would someone care to explain what I would want to use the o-rings for?

They are for preventing nerve damage and tendon damage.  Use them or die.  I am not joking around.

I'm assuming its if you don't like the sound coming from bottoming out.

A keyboard should be silent.
Any sound u hear is the result of wasted energy.
In the case of keyboards, most of the sound is the result of a violent impact of a hard piece of plastic banging into a steel plate.

> It doesn't feel violent to me, I like the impacts.

That is your brain talking and your brain is wrong.  Your cells and nerves decide what is violent and what is not.  Your cells and nerves have decided that it is violent and damaging.  If you keep making those impacts all day long day after day, year after year, you eventually get hand damage of some sort.

There is a reason why so many millions of ppl have hand problems in our modern world.  Largely because of keyboard and mouse abuse.

Put the 40A o-rings on or die, its ur choice.

There are different colored ones, do they vary in stiffness or is it just me?

Use the soft ones.

Anyways, so the switches. Overall, there isn't as much difference between the keys as I imagined. However, I was immediately drawn to the red switch, and turned off by the black switch. The blacks are very stiff! My decision is just as I figured it would be, between the browns and the reds.

My initial fear was that the reds were going to feel insanely soft. They are noticeably the softest, but not overly so. I only have 1 of each switch, so I don't know how it would be full on typing on them, but the reds seem like my favorite.

Get the Reds and the soft O-rings.

Why do some people say they hate typing on reds?

Because it can be really really hard to adjust from a Rubberdome keyboard all the way to Cherry Reds for some ppl.  I assume u r young and healthy and easily adaptable?  Get the Reds and stick with them.

If u r old and unadaptable, or u have problems with hand coordination, or anything of that sort then it can take 3 months to get fully used to Reds.
Lots of ppl say it only takes 2 weeks to get used to them.  Honestly, u sound like me, a hardcore gamer.  I think u will be adapted in 24 hours.

[pankakes]

Good point, Saturn. I do feel what you mean and understand that the browns may be easier to type on for longer periods because of this. I can also see why browns are sometimes considered muddy reds. Eh, I don't really know which one of the two I like better still, haha.

Unless I can get convinced otherwise, I think I am going to go with the reds. I just hope it doesn't end up being a mistake. We'll see.

Now comes the hard part. Where the hell can I buy one of these?

Ducky Shine II TKL Blue LED mx-red switches. - Can't find one in stock on tigerimports, amazon, or mechanicalkeyboards. Anyone have any ideas?


-Sidenote: haha TotalChaos, thanks for the all in one reply! You make me feel much more confident about my decision. I am 24, and game a good amount, so I bet I can pick it up quickly. I'll get a set of the o-rings, they are placed up on the underside of the keycap, correct? I can see what you mean. Now if only I could stop cracking my knuckles every 20 minutes....

[TotalChaos]

I'll get a set of the o-rings, they are placed up on the underside of the keycap, correct?

Yep, nice and easy.

Now comes the hard part. Where the hell can I buy one of these?

Here is the deal:  If you want an LED keyboard well, all LED keycaps are made by painting regular transluscent keycaps then lasering off the legends so the light can shine thru.  The problem is, its paint.  It will eventually crack and fall off.  You can't really expect the keycaps to last more than 3 years.  You could get unlucky and get ones that fall apart in 6 weeks like happened to LeslieAnn.

I love the idea of LED keyboards but... the keycaps can't last as long as regular keycaps and I am sick of getting ripped off so I have chosen to just limit myself to regular keyboards.

I recommend a WASD or Filco.  WASD keyboards are less $$$ than Filco and have more customization options.    And WASD already has all ur credit card infoz 

[pankakes]

I have had this same old dell keyboard for ten years. I have never faced an issue with the letters/finish wearing off the keys. Is this a common thing among mechanical keyboards? This is a super cheap keyboard and it has stood up to a lot of use, why can't a keyboard that is over $100 hold up to the same? 

[TotalChaos]

I have had this same old dell keyboard for ten years.

Does it have LED backlight?  Nope.

I have never faced an issue with the letters/finish wearing off the keys.

I never did either until I got a new $99.00 computer in 2005 from Fry's.  That rubberdome keyboard had pad printed keys that only lasted 90 days of light typing before they were completely erased.

Is this a common thing among mechanical keyboards? This is a super cheap keyboard and it has stood up to a lot of use, why can't a keyboard that is over $100 hold up to the same?

If u get a normal springloaded keyboard from WASD it should last you 10 years I assume.

If u get a backlit keyboard then the keys should last 6 weeks to 3 years.

I am only mentioning all this to you because you said you were interested in getting a quality product that would last and last and last.

If you get a backlit keyboard then you are gambling with the paintjob.  Does the paint on your house last 10 years?  Does the paint on your car last 10 years?  Car companies spend gazillions of $$$ to get their paint formula right so it can last.  A lot of keyboard companies are smalltime and they don't have the $$$ or manpower to research paint formulas.

Have u ever painted a fence or something?  How long did it last?

I just stay away from painted keys and get regular plastic keys.

But its all up to u, whatever you want.

[pankakes]

I understand. I do want a product that will really last. What would be your suggestion?

[Preach]

I am coming from a laptop only background and this is my first tower setup.

When I was doing some research I was choosing between red, black, and browns.
I ended up choosing browns because reds were on the expensive side along with seemed they would offer too much of a light feeling.
On the browns you don't have to bottom out. You can easily press the key to a certain point and have it actuate.

I found the browns are the perfect switch for me given that I play WoW the most which requires a lot of key presses and have to type a lot for work.

Ultimately the choice is up to you and what you think would be good for the reasons you would want a mechanical keyboard.

Good luck in your choice and I'm sure whatever you decide to go with, you will be happy that you made the jump to mechanical.

[pankakes]

Starting this back up, as I still have not bought.

I really like the Ninja Majestouch-2 TKL MX-Red.

I definitely want red switches and tenkeyless.

I have been looking at the KBT line and really love their simple awesome look. I have heard mixed reviews about Vortex though. Eh? I like the KBT ONI. PBT caps :]



KBT ONI or Filco Ninja Majestouch-2? Or another?!

[pankakes]

Or how about the leopold tenkeyless linear touch?

http://elitekeyboards.com/products.php?sub=leopold,tenkeyless&pid=fc200rrab#

[NikoGasm]

Out of the ones you've listed I would most strongly recommend the Filco. They're all great keyboards, but the Filco will be the most friendly for future customizations.

[pankakes]

Yeah. The people to get the filco I want are being a pain in the ass... otherwise I'd probably already have that board. I have been trying to get it through amazon (keyboardstore uk). Idk where else to get it from!

[GordonZed]

It's going to be really tough to make an informed decision based on other people's opinions. Like anything in life, switch preference is very subjective. Go to the NCIX site and see if there's a location near you, that way you can go and actually try the more common switches. My local NCIX has a full aisle of mechanical keyboards that I thought I could only find online, and they have several out of the box for testing. If you don't have an NCIX near you, then you have no choice, but I would definitely try that first; it's like nerd heaven in there.

I personally wouldn't buy reds, as I'm more of a programmer than a gamer, but I will second that they feel amazing for FPS, that smooth linear feel made moving around with the WASD keys feel so natural if that makes any sense.

[nullstring]

I am not saying browns are as ridiculous as blues.  But u are required to put more energy into the keypress for no benefit.

When u type fast u crash into the bottom anyway and that tells your fingers to stop.  Also when u r frantically playing a game u always crash the key into the bottom anyway.  So u may as well do that in the most energy efficient manner.  Reds allow the most energy-efficient key activation.  As a gamer that's mainly what I care about.

I am actually quite confident it requires about the same amount of energy to activate either a brown or a red switch.
My maths are a little rusty and I need to get to work, so give me a while to come back to this.

The force on the browns in non-linear, which means that you get to a higher force faster. After this higher force, the force in much less. The integral of this curve is the amount of energy we are interested in. Hell, maybe I could take a image manipulation program to fill in the area under the curve to the left of the activation point on the switch force curve graphs and see which how many pixels it comes out to.

Nevermind, the force graphs seem to disagree with what my experience is.
I own both reds and browns, and I feel that using a red keyboard is more tiring than using a brown (And I don't bottom out with reds). Looking at the force graph, i don't know how that's possible.
HMMM

[Noko]

Yeah. The people to get the filco I want are being a pain in the ass... otherwise I'd probably already have that board. I have been trying to get it through amazon (keyboardstore uk). Idk where else to get it from!

NCIX.com has a US site and they carry a good range of Filcos.  I buy all my computer stuff from them (including my current Filco) and highly recommend them.

[Kouni]

I own both reds and browns, and I feel that using a red keyboard is more tiring than using a brown (And I don't bottom out with reds). Looking at the force graph, i don't know how that's possible.

From my experience (switched from blacks to browns), a lot of the fatigue you get when using linear switches comes from overcontracting your hand muscles waiting for the key to register. I may well be wrong, but that's how it felt typing on blacks. It wasn't so much about the pressure needed to depress the key but about getting to the activation point without bottoming out. It's a subtle point, so you try to get "just there" and you're putting a lot of effort into controlling the pressure. With browns it's easy, the bump tells you when you're there.

[OnTheBrink]

Hello everyone, I have been brought here by the /r/buildapc>/r/mechanicalkeyboards subreddits.

I am glad I have found this forum, as the discussions here have answered a lot of my questions already. After several days of research, I am still not satisfied with any of the keyboards I have stumbled upon.

I believe for a game like DotA, I am going to want either black or brown switches. I use reddit a lot, and type a lot on several forums, so I don't think reds would be for me. I have been leaning towards blacks, as I have found a handful of dota pros that seem to prefer the black switches. However, while reading this forum, I have seen that many of you SC2 players enjoy using brown switches over blacks.

I am switching over from a 12 year old dell keyboard. From what I have read, any choice is going to be a big improvement from this. I was initially drawn to reds, but it seems that the unanimous opinion on the reds is that they are the worst to type on. I do a lot of typing.

What I am looking for in a KB:

- Black Switches, maybe brown (Not so sure ^)
- Standard layout, but tenkeyless or not doesn't really matter.
- Not a mini-usb connector. I want it to last and would prefer a more solid setup.
- Lit keys would be ideal, but not necessary.

What originally got me looking into mechanicals was the Steelseries 6g v2, which uses black switches. My only gripe with that KB is the enlarged enter key, and movement of the \ key to next to the /. It's a small thing, but it would bug me.

I will keep looking around and will document my search here for others who may have the same desires. Please give me your thoughts on my search. Thanks

Just curious, why do you incorporate mini USB as not "solid"?

[GordonZed]

Hello everyone, I have been brought here by the /r/buildapc>/r/mechanicalkeyboards subreddits.

I am glad I have found this forum, as the discussions here have answered a lot of my questions already. After several days of research, I am still not satisfied with any of the keyboards I have stumbled upon.

I believe for a game like DotA, I am going to want either black or brown switches. I use reddit a lot, and type a lot on several forums, so I don't think reds would be for me. I have been leaning towards blacks, as I have found a handful of dota pros that seem to prefer the black switches. However, while reading this forum, I have seen that many of you SC2 players enjoy using brown switches over blacks.

I am switching over from a 12 year old dell keyboard. From what I have read, any choice is going to be a big improvement from this. I was initially drawn to reds, but it seems that the unanimous opinion on the reds is that they are the worst to type on. I do a lot of typing.

What I am looking for in a KB:

- Black Switches, maybe brown (Not so sure ^)
- Standard layout, but tenkeyless or not doesn't really matter.
- Not a mini-usb connector. I want it to last and would prefer a more solid setup.
- Lit keys would be ideal, but not necessary.

What originally got me looking into mechanicals was the Steelseries 6g v2, which uses black switches. My only gripe with that KB is the enlarged enter key, and movement of the \ key to next to the /. It's a small thing, but it would bug me.

I will keep looking around and will document my search here for others who may have the same desires. Please give me your thoughts on my search. Thanks

Just curious, why do you incorporate mini USB as not "solid"?

I believe the common argument is that mini USB if stressed may damage the port itself, where as micro USB is more likely to bend the more replaceable cable.

[Hyde]

Also typing on reds is like typing on a cloud of boobs.

WOW. First time hearing that analogy.

lol yeah if you've been around geekhack long enough you'll realize that's what people call mx reds  ;P

Also personally I'd suggest you go with mx brown or mx red.

But keep in mind brown is one of those switch that you get used to right away and red takes a bit of time.

Initially I like typing on brown better and gaming on red better.  Overtime I got used to typing on red then now I prefer gaming and typing on red the best (even compare to mx blue and mx black).

Though like people said it's down to preference, but in general brown is the safe switch to start but if you're willing to give it some time red might be better in the long run.

[pankakes]

Okay, ordered. Ninja Majestouch-2 TKL from keyboardco.com. I will certainly post follow up thoughts and reviews. It should be here by the end of the week.

Also, do I need the 0.2 mm reduction or the 0.4mm reduction o-rings?

[Grim Fandango]

I am afraid that your research will remain inconclusive, because everyone has their own preferences.

I do not like Blacks because they actually hurt/strain my hand on days that I type a lot. I do not like the tactility of blues when gaming. It is nice for RTS, but I do not like the tactility when you are using keys like you use the WASD cluster for movement. There is not performance loss or anything, but having to push through that tactile "bump" did not feel right to me in those situations. Even though it was not a big deal.

I really like reds. I do not think they are bad for typing at all. It has a very distinct feel, like "typing on a cloud". Once you hit your stride as a touch typer on this, it feels like your fingers are flying. I do however always bottom out because they are so light. I also have way more accidental button presses (even after using fairly intensively for over a year) than on any other switch.

Finally, I love my browns. They are still light and I enjoy their lightness like that of the reds. However, they are just heavy enough to not have the accidental keystroke problem. When typing, I enjoy that same tactile feel as on blues, but just way more subtle. Subtle enough to never be annoying, but pronounced enough to still give that nice feedback when typing. I also think that browns are kind of safe bet, because there are not extremes here. It is all middle of the road in terms of force needed to register a keystroke, tactile feedback, etc.

Other people have different opinions. This is just how I feel about the different popular switches.

[Grim Fandango]

Okay, ordered. Ninja Majestouch-2 TKL from keyboardco.com. I will certainly post follow up thoughts and reviews. It should be here by the end of the week.

Also, do I need the 0.2 mm reduction or the 0.4mm reduction o-rings?

Just noticed this post. Congrats. So you went with reds in the end?

I have a Filco Majestouch 2 and love it. Have fun.

[GordonZed]

Hope you like it bud, I just got a Filco Majestouch Ninja TKL with MX blues, very solid board.

[pankakes]

Yup, decided on the reds after all. I just really like it the best out of what I have been able to get my fingers on so far. I am still concerned with what type of o-ring to get. I got the WASD sample kit, which came with some o-rings. I prefer the softest ones, but I don't know if I should get the thinner ones or the thicker ones that WASD offers.

[pankakes]

I guess I will have to wait until my sexy new keyboard arrives to decide which o-rings to go for. I do have the sample kit, but it's hard to tell with just one key. We shall see....

[Surnia]

Personal point of view with the dampers: I purchased them well before WASD started offering the different diameters and cush levels, but I had tried the black ones on a Das Silent (MX Browns). The end effect was great for noise, but started to annoy me: I had purchased the mechanical (my first) for the solid feel and typing experience, but the ORings made the keys feel very mushy when I DID bottom out. In the end I took them off, and then realized that I wasn't too fond of the browns (too light) and gave it to my Mom. Replaced it with a full layout Majestouch 2 Ninja on MX Blacks, and have not looked back. Suits MY typing pressures far more than the browns did and I no longer bottom out, and I enjoy the linears far more than I thought I would. The higher actuation force prevents me from bottoming out, and when I do type harder its a nice satisfying click.

DO be aware that the dampers WILL cushion the keys when you do bottom out and reduce the noise levels, but its no longer a crisp click when you bottom out (if that matters to you).

[Skull_Angel]

Just to contrast on Sarina's experience; I type and game (primarily game) on MX Red and using the thick and soft O-rings (40a-r from WASD) greatly increased my comfort level for gaming. When I first started using MX Red they just "fit" my preference, but I had heavy hands for gaming and the sharp feel of bottoming out hard was almost painful (on a mental level, if that makes sense); after receiving and installing the O-rings that painful instance just completely disappeared.

Some say O-rings add a "mushy" feel to bottoming out, but personally it feels more... "organic" in the way that you still land solid, but it doesn't give a sharp "thwack" in doing so; I guess they do feel "mushy" if you don't install them correctly though, I've experienced that. When I think "mushy" I imagine the feel of a worn out hydraulic shock-absorber, and that just doesn't compare correctly for me. The most accurate analogy I can give is running on concrete barefoot (no dampeners) compared to running on various mats.

on a side note: my typing techniques have adapted to MX Reds since using them exclusively for nearly a year now, I rarely bottom out while typing and have no where near as "heavy a hand" when gaming.

[noisyturtle]

Since I got a red switch board, I only game on reds. All other switches feel heavy and distract from the experience. Reds are smooth, light, great for long sessions and rapid presses. For typing I use a blue brown or green board depending on how I feel, but usually blue.

[pankakes]

The keyboard is in! It just arrived about half an hour ago. I am typing on it here :]

I am very happy with my choice. The reds are amazing to type on! I can't wait to try it out for gaming. My speed on this keyboard is already up to normal. It follows the standard formatting that my old dell keyboard did, and has the same size key caps. This will be a very easy transition for me.

I can already see how much louder the keyboard is! I am only sometimes bottoming out when I type, but it's still noticeably louder than my old keyboard. It shouldn't be a problem, though. It's not that loud, just relative to the rubber dome board. I want to type on it for a couple days before I decide to get the o-rings.

I really dig the TKL format. Having my mouse closer is going to be much better!

Heres a view of the battlestation: http://i.imgur.com/9Q87xTr.jpg


LITTLE BIT OF A CONCERN: The spacebar does squeak very slightly when pressed. It's very subtle, but since I read about the complaint in past reviews I was looking out for it. I am not sure how to fix it. Any ideas? I'll figure it out eventually if it starts to bug me enough.

Overall, extremely satisfied with this keyboard! Thanks everyone for your advice.

[Skull_Angel]

Lube fixes the squeaky stabilizers, best bet is something thick like grease and just apply a small amount to the contact areas.

[pankakes]

Okay. I will try some sort of lubricant on the spacebar. I have been typing a lot today, and have not been too bothered by the noise.

[Grim Fandango]

Okay. I will try some sort of lubricant on the spacebar. I have been typing a lot today, and have not been too bothered by the noise.

Do not get too OCD when it comes to the noise of your keyboard. "rattle" and "ping" can really mess up your experience, but only if you let it. If you decide to not pay too much attention to it, you will find yourself not caring within a few hours.

[Demofly]

A filco with reds.

I like your taste.

[pankakes]

Do not get too OCD when it comes to the noise of your keyboard. "rattle" and "ping" can really mess up your experience, but only if you let it. If you decide to not pay too much attention to it, you will find yourself not caring within a few hours.

I already have made that conclusion on my own. It doesn't bother me at all. It was just something I noticed upon my first inspection of the board. It really is a pleasure to use. I find myself repeating the typing speed testers just to keep typing, haha. I could use the practice anyways, as I am around 75 wpm. Thanks for the thought, though. I do think I will be doing the o-ring mod. With the thicker soft rings 40A-R. They are sold out on WASD, so I will have to wait until 3/13 to order them. Anyone know somewhere else I could buy these now?

I was able to play a few games of dota2 last night and the reds worked very well. I couldn't be happier. I will start to like it even more as I continue to get used to the new keyboard. I used the same keyboard for about 12 years, so it's taking some time to get used to the differences in layout/design.

[pankakes]

Update:

This keyboard is a pleasure to use. I am loving it. **** yeah filco!

[TotalChaos]

Reds Rule.

Kill some newbs 4 me 

[pankakes]

Reds Rule.

Dude. Seriously. When I got the sample pack from WASD, it was harder to tell which one I was going to like better, but even then I still felt like the reds were best.

Now that I have been typing on this board, I can't believe I was even considering any other switch. Especially for gaming, oh man this thing is way better than the rubber dome trash.

[pankakes]

Still loving it. I feel like the o-rings are good to protect the health of my hands, but I think I will miss the clacky :[

My dad used my pc for a minute tonight and he was complaining about the ninja printed keycaps

[pankakes]

Here is a video of my keyboard and me typing on it:

[CPTBadAss]

I prefer soft-landing pads to O-rings. I feel like the travel reduction is too much even if its the thinner 0.2mm ones.

[pankakes]

What is this soft-landing pad? I'm a mech noob still

[CPTBadAss]

What is this soft-landing pad? I'm a mech noob still

Check this out and then let me know if you have any questions.

[pankakes]

What is this soft-landing pad? I'm a mech noob still

Check this out and then let me know if you have any questions.

That explains a lot, thanks. I don't know though. I am keeping it vanilla for now I think. I know having some sort of dampening mod would be better for me, so I feel I should do it soon.

[Skull_Angel]

I prefer soft-landing pads to O-rings. I feel like the travel reduction is too much even if its the thinner 0.2mm ones.

Isn't the travel reduction the same on the landing pads? Or do they "squish" that much? Improperly installed o-rings feel really funny, you have to butt them up against the stem stabilizers or they feel all sorts of weird.

[CPTBadAss]

I prefer soft-landing pads to O-rings. I feel like the travel reduction is too much even if its the thinner 0.2mm ones.

Isn't the travel reduction the same on the landing pads? Or do they "squish" that much? Improperly installed o-rings feel really funny, you have to butt them up against the stem stabilizers or they feel all sorts of weird.

I measured the thickness of one at 1 mm. And I just measured an o-ring at 2 mm. WASD must mean 0.2 cm, not mm. And the landing pads squish way more. The softness is way under the 40A of the soft red o-rings.

[Skull_Angel]

I prefer soft-landing pads to O-rings. I feel like the travel reduction is too much even if its the thinner 0.2mm ones.

Isn't the travel reduction the same on the landing pads? Or do they "squish" that much? Improperly installed o-rings feel really funny, you have to butt them up against the stem stabilizers or they feel all sorts of weird.

I measured the thickness of one at 1 mm. And I just measured an o-ring at 2 mm. WASD must mean 0.2 cm, not mm. And the landing pads squish way more. The softness is way under the 40A of the soft red o-rings.

Interesting, anything to note about durability? The black o-rings that WASD originally sold couldn't be reused after a year, they were close to falling apart when I removed them (and a few had cracked in half); iirc, they were generic silicone o-rings. As I understand it they started stocking ones made of more durable material though.

I haven't seen much feedback on the landing pads, but the soft ones don't strike me as being very durable; I'd like to know more if you could elaborate on the subject.

[CPTBadAss]

I'll let you know in a few months. I just grabbed them like a month ago. So far they seem fine in terms of wear.

[Skull_Angel]

I'll let you know in a few months. I just grabbed them like a month ago. So far they seem fine in terms of wear.

Sweet, look forward to hearing about 'em.

[TotalChaos]

I prefer soft-landing pads to O-rings. I feel like the travel reduction is too much even if its the thinner 0.2mm ones.

Isn't the travel reduction the same on the landing pads? Or do they "squish" that much? Improperly installed o-rings feel really funny, you have to butt them up against the stem stabilizers or they feel all sorts of weird.

I measured the thickness of one at 1 mm. And I just measured an o-ring at 2 mm. WASD must mean 0.2 cm, not mm.

There is a big difference between the thickness of an object and how much it reduces travel.  And to make things even more complicated, it matters which specific keycaps you are using.  WASD keycaps have a higher Riding Height than CoolerMaster keycaps and this affects the travel distance reduction.

The taller keycaps are very helpful from an ergonomic standpoint.  They allow more padding so you can have safer impacts without reducing travel distance much.

And the landing pads squish way more. The softness is way under the 40A of the soft red o-rings.

I bought sheets of 10A rubber and the 10A rubber is much harder than the pads.

[CPTBadAss]

There is a big difference between the thickness of an object and how much it reduces travel.  And to make things even more complicated, it matters which specific keycaps you are using.  WASD keycaps have a higher Riding Height than CoolerMaster keycaps and this affects the travel distance reduction.

The taller keycaps are very helpful from an ergonomic standpoint.  They allow more padding so you can have safer impacts without reducing travel distance much.

That's very true, the keycaps affect how the o-rings/pads work. The OEM caps with the crossbars on the bottom seem to  work "better" vs the SP caps which don't have anything inside.


And you're saying the soft-landing pads are softer than 10A?

[TotalChaos]

There is a big difference between the thickness of an object and how much it reduces travel.  And to make things even more complicated, it matters which specific keycaps you are using.  WASD keycaps have a higher Riding Height than CoolerMaster keycaps and this affects the travel distance reduction.

The taller keycaps are very helpful from an ergonomic standpoint.  They allow more padding so you can have safer impacts without reducing travel distance much.

That's very true, the keycaps affect how the o-rings/pads work. The OEM caps with the crossbars on the bottom seem to  work "better" vs the SP caps which don't have anything inside.

Are you saying that no SP keycaps ever have reinforcement bars?

I have been calling them "reinforcement bars" but "crossbars" is less chars to type so maybe I will change.

I wrote SP a long email a while back asking them to show upskirt pics so I can see which of their keycaps have crossbars and which do not.  Its very very very important when using the current ergonomic protections available on the market.

They did not answer me which keycaps have crossbars and which do not.  Did any upskirt shots ever appear on their website?

I was thinking it was only their doubleshot keycaps that were missing the crossbars because, I assume, the manufacturing process excludes them.  But for all I know, no SP keycaps ever come with crossbars.

And you're saying the soft-landing pads are softer than 10A?

If you want to get really technical about it then referring to the pads using a durometer A-rating is inappropriate due to really technical reasons.  You can read up about if you really want.

What I am saying as a human is that soft landing pads are softer and squishier and have more elasticity than my sheets of 10A rubber.  I basically wasted $300.00 buying this rubber thinking it would be like foam padding and it just isn't.  Its solid rubber with no air pockets so its much more rigid and much less ergonomic.  Live and learn.

Another way of saying it is that 10A rubber is much denser and harder than the soft foam padding.

[CPTBadAss]

I should've said the SP set that I have (Valentine's Set) has no cross bars. Those are the only ones I can say for certain don't have them.

And I'm familiar with how the durometer scale works. I've done durometer testing before