My research has been inconclusive. DotA gamer moving to mechanical KB needs help

[pankakes]

Hello everyone, I have been brought here by the /r/buildapc>/r/mechanicalkeyboards subreddits.

I am glad I have found this forum, as the discussions here have answered a lot of my questions already. After several days of research, I am still not satisfied with any of the keyboards I have stumbled upon.

I believe for a game like DotA, I am going to want either black or brown switches. I use reddit a lot, and type a lot on several forums, so I don't think reds would be for me. I have been leaning towards blacks, as I have found a handful of dota pros that seem to prefer the black switches. However, while reading this forum, I have seen that many of you SC2 players enjoy using brown switches over blacks.

I am switching over from a 12 year old dell keyboard. From what I have read, any choice is going to be a big improvement from this. I was initially drawn to reds, but it seems that the unanimous opinion on the reds is that they are the worst to type on. I do a lot of typing.

What I am looking for in a KB:

- Black Switches, maybe brown (Not so sure ^)
- Standard layout, but tenkeyless or not doesn't really matter.
- Not a mini-usb connector. I want it to last and would prefer a more solid setup.
- Lit keys would be ideal, but not necessary.

What originally got me looking into mechanicals was the Steelseries 6g v2, which uses black switches. My only gripe with that KB is the enlarged enter key, and movement of the \ key to next to the /. It's a small thing, but it would bug me.

I will keep looking around and will document my search here for others who may have the same desires. Please give me your thoughts on my search. Thanks

[TotalChaos]

I was initially drawn to reds, but it seems that the unanimous opinion on the reds is that they are the worst to type on. I do a lot of typing.

Uhhh no its not unanimous.  The ppl who don't like Reds are confused 

Reds are the best to type on.  Make sure u install 40A O-rings whichever switch u choose.

The deal is this: Most ppl have spent their whole lives typing on Rubber Dome keyboards that stupidly require you to jam a ton of force into every keypress.  Once u over come the initial resistance you free fall into the bottom of the keyboard with a big crash.  Ppl use these keyboards for many years then when they switch to Reds its this big difference and they have psychological problems adjusting to the extreme difference.  These ppl find that Browns also stupidly require you to put a bunch of extra force into the top of each keypress, then the pressure suddenly drops away, in a vaguely similar manner to a rubberdome.  Browns are like less extreme, more friendly rubberdomes.  They are easier to adapt to for sure.  But does that make them "better"?  I say no way.

If you had spent your whole life typing on Reds you would  think that browns, blues and blacks were just silly fads for keyboard companies to make extra money with.  Kaching!

In the end you will get whatever you want.  Get whatever makes you feel good.  Or do what Cherry wants you to do: Get all of them.  The more different keyboards you buy the more $$$ they take to the bank.

[pankakes]

Maybe I am getting mixed up, but I have read that blues are the best to type on. Part of me just wants to get blues and be super clackity clack

But in all seriousness, the way you describe browns definitely turns me off of them. I guess it would be between blacks and reds then.

I do use the membrane keyboard at the moment, and it is all I have known. I don't necessarily think of myself as heavy-handed on the keys, but I'm not light on them either. I definitely don't want to be getting more than one of these, at least not for now. Who knows, maybe I'd start collecting different types haha.

[Polymer]

I was initially drawn to reds, but it seems that the unanimous opinion on the reds is that they are the worst to type on. I do a lot of typing.

Uhhh no its not unanimous.  The ppl who don't like Reds are confused 

Reds are the best to type on.  Make sure u install 40A O-rings whichever switch u choose.

The deal is this: Most ppl have spent their whole lives typing on Rubber Dome keyboards that stupidly require you to jam a ton of force into every keypress.  Once u over come the initial resistance you free fall into the bottom of the keyboard with a big crash.  Ppl use these keyboards for many years then when they switch to Reds its this big difference and they have psychological problems adjusting to the extreme difference.  These ppl find that Browns also stupidly require you to put a bunch of extra force into the top of each keypress, then the pressure suddenly drops away, in a vaguely similar manner to a rubberdome.  Browns are like less extreme, more friendly rubberdomes.  They are easier to adapt to for sure.  But does that make them "better"?  I say no way.

If you had spent your whole life typing on Reds you would  think that browns, blues and blacks were just silly fads for keyboard companies to make extra money with.  Kaching!

In the end you will get whatever you want.  Get whatever makes you feel good.  Or do what Cherry wants you to do: Get all of them.  The more different keyboards you buy the more $$$ they take to the bank.

You obviously have never used browns...Which people find that browns require you to put  in a bunch of extra force at the top of each keypress and then the pressure falls away? (I have never heard that once) I'm sure that is just what you think based on some theory you have but certainly not based on any experience I've seen anyone have.  A few quotes:
"Browns feel like dirty reds"
"I can't even feel the tactile bump"

In fact, the whole reason why something like Ergo Clears exists is because the tactile bump on browns is very minimal. 

So for some, the minimal tactile bump is annoying because there isn't enough of it..they don't feel it enough so instead it feels scratchy (in which case they'd rather use reds)....For others, it just gives them that slight feedback when gaming so they know they've hit a button...

I'm not even advocating browns over reds..I think reds are fine for typing once you get used to them...but certainly how you describe them is completely inaccurate...

[dewcorps]

Greetings pankakes and welcome to GH. As a player of both the dotas and the starcrafts, as well as having tried pretty much every MX variant, I can honestly say that it will come down to personal preference. I use blues for gaming and typing, much to the dismay of those around me. The main thing is that it will be very subjective, and no matter how many pros use a certian swich, it will be no good for you if you dont like typing on it. If you cant come to an conclusion, just get browns as they will be a safe bet.

Also typing on reds is like typing on a cloud of boobs.

---edit---

On a related note, is Hashbaz or someone else doing a keypad tester?

[Sinzz]

Welcome to geekhack! You probably will be trying out all the switches now that you've joined this forum. I know I have been. And like people have been saying, it's all personal preference. Some like different switch types and prefer them over the other. I personally prefer the linear switches (blacks and reds) and have tried all of the mainstream switches aside from the new mainstream, green. I honestly think that browns are popular because of the feedback you get, but to me, they just feel too much like brand new rubber domes. Doesn't mean they're not nice to type on, just I prefer the smooth linear feel.

I say get blacks first, and from there, you can see if the feeling is what you like, and if you want something lighter, then go with reds. Or something with more feedback go with blues or browns. I think learning to type with blacks first will make it easier to learn to not bottom out. Good luck!

[TotalChaos]

Maybe I am getting mixed up, but I have read that blues are the best to type on. Part of me just wants to get blues and be super clackity clack

You could get blues but it seems to me that it makes more sense just to turn on clickykeys function in windoze.  There is such a function buried somewhere isn't there?

That way you can turn it off when u don't want it.

I definitely don't want to be getting more than one of these, at least not for now. Who knows, maybe I'd start collecting different types haha.

Once you join GeekHack its all over for you.  You are doomed to buy at least 12 different keyboards.  Abandon all hope, ye who enter here. 

[TotalChaos]

You obviously have never used browns...

I have used them a little.

I'm not even advocating browns over reds..I think reds are fine for typing once you get used to them...but certainly how you describe them is completely inaccurate...

I am not saying browns are as ridiculous as blues.  But u are required to put more energy into the keypress for no benefit.

When u type fast u crash into the bottom anyway and that tells your fingers to stop.  Also when u r frantically playing a game u always crash the key into the bottom anyway.  So u may as well do that in the most energy efficient manner.  Reds allow the most energy-efficient key activation.  As a gamer that's mainly what I care about.

But like I said, if you like browns then by all means use them.  They absolutely beat any rubberdome over membrane I ever typed on.
(I have not modded any rubberdome keyboards yet.  If I ever do then my opinion on this may change dramatically.)

[IvanIvanovich]

Right, it's all a preference. No switch is better or worse for any purpose at all. I like linear and clicky switch, and don't like the tactile ones (brown, clear) much. I also agree that stiffer switch could be a better start. My first MX board had blacks and I learned to feel the force ramping to avoid bottoming. I found them to be a little fatigue in long session though so after some reading I was misled into browns as the 'best' choice. I did not like them, they feel defective to me after linear. So I get red and they are my favorite overall for gaming and typing. But I also like clicky switch sometimes to mix it up.
So there you go, another opinion that probably dosen't make anything more clear for you

[Polymer]

You obviously have never used browns...

I have used them a little.

I'm not even advocating browns over reds..I think reds are fine for typing once you get used to them...but certainly how you describe them is completely inaccurate...

I am not saying browns are as ridiculous as blues.  But u are required to put more energy into the keypress for no benefit.

When u type fast u crash into the bottom anyway and that tells your fingers to stop.  Also when u r frantically playing a game u always crash the key into the bottom anyway.  So u may as well do that in the most energy efficient manner.  Reds allow the most energy-efficient key activation.  As a gamer that's mainly what I care about.

But like I said, if you like browns then by all means use them.  They absolutely beat any rubberdome over membrane I ever typed on.
(I have not modded any rubberdome keyboards yet.  If I ever do then my opinion on this may change dramatically.)

If you've used browns at all, you'd know that there isn't a lot of added force to press them down..not at all. Again, most people, if anything, wish they had MORE of a tactile bump because what is there is very slight.  Blues aren't that way either....the actual difference is only a few grams of force.  All three (Brown, reds and blues) all top out at around 60g when bottoming out. 

You do NOT, absolutely NOT have so much force to get over the tactile bump that it forces you to bottom out...it is nothing like a rubber dome or topre with regards to that.

[TotalChaos]

You obviously have never used browns...

I have used them a little.

I'm not even advocating browns over reds..I think reds are fine for typing once you get used to them...but certainly how you describe them is completely inaccurate...

I am not saying browns are as ridiculous as blues.  But u are required to put more energy into the keypress for no benefit.

When u type fast u crash into the bottom anyway and that tells your fingers to stop.  Also when u r frantically playing a game u always crash the key into the bottom anyway.  So u may as well do that in the most energy efficient manner.  Reds allow the most energy-efficient key activation.  As a gamer that's mainly what I care about.

But like I said, if you like browns then by all means use them.  They absolutely beat any rubberdome over membrane I ever typed on.
(I have not modded any rubberdome keyboards yet.  If I ever do then my opinion on this may change dramatically.)

If you've used browns at all, you'd know that there isn't a lot of added force to press them down..not at all. Again, most people, if anything, wish they had MORE of a tactile bump because what is there is very slight.  Blues aren't that way either....the actual difference is only a few grams of force.  All three (Brown, reds and blues) all top out at around 60g when bottoming out. 

According to the force graphs located at WASDkeyboards.com:
http://www.wasdkeyboards.com/mechanical-keyboard-guide
You must input 60g of force to activate a blue switch.
You must input 55g of force to activate a brown switch.
You must input 45g of force to activate a red switch.

If you feel that 10g or 15g is only a few grams and not noticeable then that  is ok, I respect your feelings on the matter.  But to me I notice it.  An impartial experiment of stacking nickels on the keyboard notices it too.

[pankakes]

OP here:

Thank you all for the warm welcome, I'm happy to see a discussion already well underway in this thread. I understand I will probably end up getting several boards, but for now I really want to just get one and stick with it for a while.

Blacks would be a safe bet for a first board? I do think the blues would be fun, but I don't know if I'd like them or not. If I went with the blues, it seems like I am going to either love it or hate it. At least that's what my take is.

I have been paying attention to the way I type lately. I type surely, but not super lightly. To put descriptive terms in, I would prefer something crisp to something fluffy. For example, I hate typing on standard laptop keyboards, the way its so soft and dull...

I don't really know! I appreciate the help with making an educated guess as to the ideal board for me. Please help me further along as I'd like to buy soon! I can do a review of whatever I get too.

[NikoGasm]

The reason a lot of pro players use Blacks is because the Steelseries 6Gv2 only had blacks until recently, and a lot of pro players use a Steelseries board. The ones who don't mostly use boards with Blues because Blues seem to be the preferred switch among non-keyboard enthusiasts.

I've gamed and typed on Blacks for an extensive period of time and my hands got very tired. Of course this wouldn't happen for everyone, but I believe it would be true for the majority of us.

After Blacks I switched to Reds and it felt perfect. It's not too heavy and the linear action makes each keystroke a breeze.

I think you should either go with Browns or Reds as your first. Personally I would recommend Red switches. Red and Brown aren't too far off from eachother, the main difference is the Brown has a slight bump where the Reds are smooth all the way down.

If you didn't want Reds for any reason, Browns are a perfectly reasonable option. I'm typing on them right now, and they're not horrible at all. They feel a lot like Reds, and are often described as "Dirty Reds" due to the slight tactile bump.

Browns and Reds both use 45g springs, so they take the same amount of force. It's just the small tactile bump in Browns that sets them apart.

[pankakes]

I guess I don't understand how big or little of a difference there is between 45g and 60g. I wish there was a pc parts store around where I could check it out. I live in the middle of the Adirondack Park, in NY. Not much around here other than some bears

I know my crappy membrane keyboard (or whatever you call it) has something of a feedback, right? If I push a key softly I can feel the point in which the key gives a little and the letter registers. Do I need that? I don't know. I don't feel like I notice it while typing regularly.

So in the land of reds vs blacks, I should try out reds first?

NikoGasm, I did really like the steelseries board except for that layout change. I'd rather have the standard key layout, whether its tenkeyless or full doesn't matter as much.

Being that you guys are the biggest keyboard enthusiasts I've ever seen you're probably good people to ask, does having lit keys really matter? I do usually game in low-light, but even with the lights off my monitor is huge (28'') so it lights up the keyboard anyway. I can always see the keys. I think I'd have more options available to me if I don't go for backlit keys, no?

So I guess the new list is:

- Red switches
- Really sturdy, no mini-usb plug
- Standard key layout, I like having the number pad but I would grab a tenkeyless if it was ideal for everything else.
- Plain frame with decent back risers to angle the board. I have a memory foam wrist rest that I'd prefer to use over the plastic wedges that are on some. If it's detachable, then it doesn't matter.

What are some brands I should be looking at? Are there any I should be avoiding? What sites do you guys usually shop from? I have just been googling things and lurking reviews and forums. If you have any keyboards that you would recommend, let me know. I really appreciate everyone joining in. It's always a pleasure to find a nice forum.


I am already going to have to order one with blue switches after I get this one, just for fun. I know it. You guys are sucking me in. But lets focus on the above wants for now 

[pankakes]

Also, what do you guys think of the ducky keyboards? They look great to me, except for that mini-usb connector. It just worries me. I don't want to have to so some mod to make sure its strong, I just want it to be bulletproof out of the box.

[Binge]

Also, what do you guys think of the ducky keyboards? They look great to me, except for that mini-usb connector. It just worries me. I don't want to have to so some mod to make sure its strong, I just want it to be bulletproof out of the box.

Mini USB is a great thing if you intend to move around/LAN.  Do not worry as many of us use detachable cables.  Sounds like what you need is a keyboard with cable routing.  The routing makes the cable stay secure while using a detachable cable.  Lots of companies offer that feature.  Ducky models are ok.  Backlighting can be nice.

[NikoGasm]

You should look at getting a QFR. They're fairly cheap, they'd work well with your memory foam wristwrest, they have great build quality, and they come in a variety of switches. Check it out here.

As for your question about Ducky keyboards:
I've used several Ducky keyboards (I'm using one right now) and I think they're outstanding. There are some known issues with the DK1087 dying on some people, but I had a DK1087 with Blacks for about a year and never saw a single problem.
The only gripe with going with a Ducky is they're pretty pricey.

As for backlighting:
I used to think having LEDs was really cool, and it is pretty neat, but honestly it seems pretty gimmicky after a while. Every board I've had that uses LEDs I end up turning them off. The only ones I actually like are the LEDs on the newer Ducky Shines and YOTD keyboards because of the reactive lighting mode.
But LEDs are not really a necessity, it's just a neat feature if you're into that sort of thing. No shame if you want it, no shame if you don't.

If you wanted to check out Ducky boards, you can find them here.

And for the TKL vs Fullsize thing, I'd just like to throw in some of my personal experience. When I first got into mechanical keyboards I thought I needed the number pad (as most people think). I used it a few times which gave me the mentality that I needed it. But when I got my DK1087 I quickly realized how seldom it was used, and when I did use it, it could easily be replaced by the number row. I much prefer TKL now. The compact form factor is really nice, it allows your mouse hand to be closer to the keyboard, which in turn allow for proper alignment with your shoulders. Overall I find it much more comfortable using a TKL versus fullsize. But this is also personal preference. Neither one is better than the other by any means.

[Polymer]

You obviously have never used browns...

I have used them a little.

I'm not even advocating browns over reds..I think reds are fine for typing once you get used to them...but certainly how you describe them is completely inaccurate...

I am not saying browns are as ridiculous as blues.  But u are required to put more energy into the keypress for no benefit.

When u type fast u crash into the bottom anyway and that tells your fingers to stop.  Also when u r frantically playing a game u always crash the key into the bottom anyway.  So u may as well do that in the most energy efficient manner.  Reds allow the most energy-efficient key activation.  As a gamer that's mainly what I care about.

But like I said, if you like browns then by all means use them.  They absolutely beat any rubberdome over membrane I ever typed on.
(I have not modded any rubberdome keyboards yet.  If I ever do then my opinion on this may change dramatically.)

If you've used browns at all, you'd know that there isn't a lot of added force to press them down..not at all. Again, most people, if anything, wish they had MORE of a tactile bump because what is there is very slight.  Blues aren't that way either....the actual difference is only a few grams of force.  All three (Brown, reds and blues) all top out at around 60g when bottoming out. 

According to the force graphs located at WASDkeyboards.com:
http://www.wasdkeyboards.com/mechanical-keyboard-guide
You must input 60g of force to activate a blue switch.
You must input 55g of force to activate a brown switch.
You must input 45g of force to activate a red switch.

If you feel that 10g or 15g is only a few grams and not noticeable then that  is ok, I respect your feelings on the matter.  But to me I notice it.  An impartial experiment of stacking nickels on the keyboard notices it too.

Yeap..I know exactly how much it takes for each..and they all bottom out at around 60g.  But NONE of them need so much force that there is a huge  fall off after the tactile bump that makes you bottom out.  That is you making that assumption based on something you've read and what is in your head, not on experience.  It is obvious because no one has ever described browns the way you have...

Since you don't have browns, you haven't had browns in the past and you have said you don't really have the capability to move around and try them, pretty sure you haven't touched one on a keyboard before...you're providing advice based on some assumptions you've made...

[jeroplane]

Haven't really read the rest of this thread apart from a light skim, but my input is this: choose the keyboard according to what you think will be most comfortable for typing. You will barely notice the switch type when playing Dota, and the game does not require large amounts of keyboard APM or double-tapping (except the occasional double-tapped ability/item) unlike games such as Starcraft. Honestly, IMO the keyboard does not matter at all in Dota. I think you will agree that a good mouse is most important in Dota.

The only potential issue is that Reds may be too light. Since your fingers are always resting on the hotkeys in Dota, there may be acccidental keypresses.

In terms of backlighting, have you ever found yourself looking down at the keyboard to hit hotkeys? Most people would say no. I'd say the backlighting would be distracting more than anything.

TL;DR: choose keyboard for typing, not Dota.

[qmdunn]

Go with Brown switches, you won't be disappointed.

[Larken]

imo I'd take any switch except black. blues if the high pitch clicks are your thing (not for me), browns if you like a bit of tactility (it's there but not really that obvious), or reds if you like linear. Reds are really light and immensely fun to type and game on, the only potential problem being that being so light, some heavy handed users  might be pressing the keys just by resting their fingers on the keys. But in the end, it all comes down to acclimatisation. Once you get used to how the switch feels, its not really a problem how light the keys are. In fact, I actually appreciate how light to actuate reds are after some extended use.

Blacks on the other hand, while easier to get used to coming from rubber domes, tend to be too heavy for my liking, after I've tried the other switches. I know its a difference of about 15g to actuate, but I've been using browns and reds for so long that I end up not using enough force on blacks and clears when I type fast (a result of learning how to use just enough force to actuate reds and browns). Not to mention that I actually feel the fatigue while using clears (100g springs apparently).

[NikoGasm]

Haven't really read the rest of this thread apart from a light skim, but my input is this: choose the keyboard according to what you think will be most comfortable for typing. You will barely notice the switch type when playing Dota, and the game does not require large amounts of keyboard APM or double-tapping (except the occasional double-tapped ability/item) unlike games such as Starcraft. Honestly, IMO the keyboard does not matter at all in Dota. I think you will agree that a good mouse is most important in Dota.

The only potential issue is that Reds may be too light. Since your fingers are always resting on the hotkeys in Dota, there may be acccidental keypresses.

In terms of backlighting, have you ever found yourself looking down at the keyboard to hit hotkeys? Most people would say no. I'd say the backlighting would be distracting more than anything.

TL;DR: choose keyboard for typing, not Dota.

You make some really good points here.

The keyboard should absolutely be chosen for typing rather than the game in this scenario. That's what keyboards were made for anyways.

And the concern about accidentally hitting keys with Reds, this is a valid argument. I personally have accidentally hit keys while playing LoL on my Reds. But that was when I had first started using them. As time went on I got past that.

[pankakes]

Solely from a typing point of view, I feel like I'd enjoy blues. I have heard it plenty, but never in person. Is it loud enough to be heard outside of a room?

The blues vs reds as far as gaming seems to be accidental omission of double taps vs accidental keypress.

I agree I would get used to anything over time. I just keep getting swayed by what I read or am told. I know nothing about these from personal experience, so it's all I have to go by.

With what I've just been told now I feel like going with the blues or browns.... ahhhhh!

I do think I will go with the Ducky Shine II though. Tenkeyless. Blue, Brown, or Red. Or maybe black? Haha.


As I type on my old dell board right now, I am comfortable. This is the keyboard I have used since I started gaming over a decade ago. I don't mind the little bit of resistance it gives, and never feel like my fingers are fatigued. I can also say that I have used several laptop keyboards in the past. I can remember using a mac laptop and being unsure if I enjoyed the softness of the keys, as they were easy to push and just seemed to bottom out. Maybe that provides a little bit of info. Again, I don't feel like I type exceptionally hard, but I definitely am not a feather on the keys.

[NikoGasm]

I just keep getting swayed by what I read or am told. I know nothing about these from personal experience, so it's all I have to go by.

I want to point out that all these great differences and crazy stories and rumors about each switch is honestly not that prevalent. People say it's harder to double tap on Blues. Yes, this may be true, but the degree of difficulty is so minute that only the most hardcore users would even notice if they paid attention to it. I've gamed on Red, Brown, Blue, and Black and the only one I had trouble with at any point was the Blacks just because I'm not a super heavy-handed typer.

What it all boils down to is what do you want? What experience are you looking for? Describe what it is you want and we can help identify what switch you want.

But remember that there's really not a great deal of difference among the switches, except for ones being linear or tactile. All these myths about these crazy ranges of force simply are not true. You can categorize it like this:

Light
Blue
Brown
Red

Medium
Black
Clear

Heavy
Grey
Green
White

That's it in a nutshell. The arguments about Browns have slightly more force past a certain point or Blues needing x much more force than Reds or whatever else people argue about is really just all technicalities and not that important.

[CPTBadAss]

OP, if you have a Best Buy near you, you can go and try out the Razer Blackwidow. The box has a cutout so you can play with the arrow keys. They have blues in them so you can at least judge how those feel to you. If you're lucky enough to have a MicroCenter near you, you should be able to try out reds, blues, and browns. I think the one nearest to me doesn't carry any boards with blacks so I haven't gotten a chance to type on those. But the one nearest to me has the following boards for sale: Ducky DK2008 which has red switches; Coolermaster QuickFire Rapid and Blackwidows which have blues; Coolermaster QuickFire Rapid and Cooler Master Storm Trigger and Logitech G710 which have browns. Even if they're boxed, if you ask, the sales people will probably let you try out a few boards. I've done this multiple times.

Otherwise, you can get the WASD sampler kit if you want to try out reds, blacks, blues, and reds. I know it's only one of each switch but you can at least try out and feel how each switch is. And it's cheap so you don't have to spend ~$50 on a cheaper board just to try it.

I like blues personally but I think that a switch type is a very personal thing. I'd hesitate on recommending you a certain one. Just try to type on as many as you can before you decide. And as someone mentioned before, switches might even feel different from board to board. My Filco feels different from the Blackwidow.

Anyways, good luck with your search ^_^

[KangarooZombies]

Just my two cents: I used to really like blues when playing dota style games. I use browns now, but honestly i'm so used to the browns by now im not sure if they're better for dota style gaming or i just have Stockholm syndrome. Anyway. Blues or browns are what i'll recommend for the time being, if for nothing else, for the reason that i do end up typing quite a bit in those style of games, and these two switches are the most comfortable for me to type on. Hope my rambling made some sense to one of you.  ^.^

[pankakes]

I do have a bestbuy near me. I'll have to check it out tomorrow. Thanks guys.

The more I look, the more I think I will just go with the Ducky Shine II tenkeyless. I hope it's the right choice. It just seems well constructed, and I have gotten over my main concern of the mini-usb connector.

I am leaning towards blues now. I feel like I would like having the feel of some kind of response, and I don't think the clicky would bother me. I will check out the razer keyboard at bestbuy, but I definitely wont be buying it.

Heading to bed now. I'll keep you all posted, and I'll follow up. If you have anything to add, keep it coming! I really appreciate the responses and opinions. It's making this decision a lot easier.

[KangarooZombies]

I do have a bestbuy near me. I'll have to check it out tomorrow. Thanks guys.

The more I look, the more I think I will just go with the Ducky Shine II tenkeyless. I hope it's the right choice. It just seems well constructed, and I have gotten over my main concern of the mini-usb connector.

I am leaning towards blues now. I feel like I would like having the feel of some kind of response, and I don't think the clicky would bother me. I will check out the razer keyboard at bestbuy, but I definitely wont be buying it.

Heading to bed now. I'll keep you all posted, and I'll follow up. If you have anything to add, keep it coming! I really appreciate the responses and opinions. It's making this decision a lot easier.

The ducky is a good board. Especially if you're looking for a backlit tenkeyless. Let us know how it turns out

[NikoGasm]

The more I look, the more I think I will just go with the Ducky Shine II tenkeyless. I hope it's the right choice. It just seems well constructed, and I have gotten over my main concern of the mini-usb connector.

I am leaning towards blues now. I feel like I would like having the feel of some kind of response, and I don't think the clicky would bother me. I will check out the razer keyboard at bestbuy, but I definitely wont be buying it.

Ducky Shine II is a great decision. Fantastic keyboard. I promise you won't be disappointed.

I'd say Blues are a good choice, but then again, all switches are a good choice. There's not one switch that's bad. I actually started on Blues, but later decided that I prefer linear switches. Maybe you'll follow suit, or maybe you'll go hardcore and switch to Greens or Whites.

[stonejoint]

I play dota a lot also typing. My first keyboard was blackwidow blue is not good for spamming keys but awesome for typing. After that I bought a qfr black. It is good for both typing and games but if you need at least 2-3 days to decide which switch is for you.

Atm I am using reds at home blacks at office. I need o ring for blacks to silence them a bit. and I am also happy with filco reds.

Btw you may regret from blacks but not from reds and browns

My next keyboard will be brown but cant decide layout and brand yet. Maybe I wait for wasd TKL or try kbp.

[Polymer]

I do have a bestbuy near me. I'll have to check it out tomorrow. Thanks guys.

The more I look, the more I think I will just go with the Ducky Shine II tenkeyless. I hope it's the right choice. It just seems well constructed, and I have gotten over my main concern of the mini-usb connector.

I am leaning towards blues now. I feel like I would like having the feel of some kind of response, and I don't think the clicky would bother me. I will check out the razer keyboard at bestbuy, but I definitely wont be buying it.

Heading to bed now. I'll keep you all posted, and I'll follow up. If you have anything to add, keep it coming! I really appreciate the responses and opinions. It's making this decision a lot easier.

Do you have anyone around you that might be annoyed by the blues?  That is one big reason people don't get them..they're just really loud.  For yourself you might actually find it very satisfying though...

[akuJIWA]

I would recommend brown switch really, typing and gaming wise.
I tried gaming on my blue switch, and it was hell compared to brown switch. Red switches are indeed nice, but I prefer typing on brown. Blacks are like typing on steel! Though, not bad for gaming too.

I'm a gamer too, playing dota 2 and diablo 3

[Saturn]

What originally got me looking into mechanicals was the Steelseries 6g v2, which uses black switches. My only gripe with that KB is the enlarged enter key, and movement of the \ key to next to the /. It's a small thing, but it would bug me.

Don't jump too quickly into the Steelseries 6gv2.  It's not bad, but Steelseries is a gaming company, and there are so many better options made by non-gaming companies who have been producing quality mechanical keyboards for ages.

Switch preference unfortunately comes down to personal taste.  Try to read the descriptions of the switch types and decide what you want in a mechanical keyboard switch.  There is a vast gulf of difference between linear and tactile, even at the same activation force.  I started out on Cherry browns and heard a ton of hype about the reds, so I gave them a try, and was surprised to find how incredibly different they felt.  Some people love the reds because of how smooth and soft they are to type on, but they just didn't feel right to me.  I came to realize that when I'm typing, my fingers look for that tactile bump, perhaps because of a lifetime of muscle memory built up expecting it.

One thing I will say about the reds... they feel wonderful for gaming.  Even those who dislike typing on them wouldn't disagree that they are a fantastic gaming switch.

[pankakes]

I have ordered the sample kit and plan on making it out to best buy eventually. The sample kit may take a little while to get here, USPS from Cali to NY.

[twilek]

Hey bro, welcome to geekhack, but I'm not the one to tell you that (ripster would but he ascended to the keyboard heaven in the sky), but either way, I would say with some degree of certainty that if you live in the U.S and care about price your safest bet would be to get a leopold of any color from www.elitekeyboards.com they have about every switch except for clear and green, I got my leopold from there, it works fine. So just get one!

[dachef]

I was initially drawn to reds, but it seems that the unanimous opinion on the reds is that they are the worst to type on. I do a lot of typing.

Uhhh no its not unanimous.  The ppl who don't like Reds are confused 

Reds are the best to type on.  Make sure u install 40A O-rings whichever switch u choose.

The deal is this: Most ppl have spent their whole lives typing on Rubber Dome keyboards that stupidly require you to jam a ton of force into every keypress.  Once u over come the initial resistance you free fall into the bottom of the keyboard with a big crash.  Ppl use these keyboards for many years then when they switch to Reds its this big difference and they have psychological problems adjusting to the extreme difference.  These ppl find that Browns also stupidly require you to put a bunch of extra force into the top of each keypress, then the pressure suddenly drops away, in a vaguely similar manner to a rubberdome.  Browns are like less extreme, more friendly rubberdomes.  They are easier to adapt to for sure.  But does that make them "better"?  I say no way.

If you had spent your whole life typing on Reds you would  think that browns, blues and blacks were just silly fads for keyboard companies to make extra money with.  Kaching!

In the end you will get whatever you want.  Get whatever makes you feel good.  Or do what Cherry wants you to do: Get all of them.  The more different keyboards you buy the more $$$ they take to the bank.

I hate when people say this.  There no such thing as a unanimous conclusion or definitive conclusion when it come to what switches go with what task or purpose.  It's all preference when it comes to switches and the purpose of the switches whether it's for typing, gaming or general use.

[Binge]

+1 to preference.  At work I type on blues, and at home I type on reds.  That switch type changes on whatever I'm feeling.  I will say blues are MY least favorite to game on.

[oneproduct]

For Dota I would recommend brown switches. If someone else already mentioned it I didn't see it, but one thing about the switches that's often mentioned for gaming is the linear vs tactile.

In FPS games, where you hold down on WASD rather than just tapping them, linear switches do well. For games when you hit the keys at very specific points only, brown switches are nice for the tactile feedback.

For gaming a lighter switch is probably favorable because of how long gaming sessions can last. That brings it down to browns and blues. Blues are sometimes criticized because they take longer to reset due to the mechanism that makes the clicky noise, which some people claim makes double tapping harder. I never experienced this myself, but I've heard others complain about it.

Overall, I'd go for brown switches. In terms of resale, black switches are the hardest to get rid of. From what I see in the classifieds section, brown and red are the easiest to resell (barring non-standard switches).

[CPTBadAss]

I have ordered the sample kit and plan on making it out to best buy eventually. The sample kit may take a little while to get here, USPS from Cali to NY.

Looking forward to hearing your opinion on which switches you like

[sugosugita]

Also typing on reds is like typing on a cloud of boobs.

WOW. First time hearing that analogy.

[pankakes]

Sorry for the hiatus, I just got some new parts in and I got distracted. Now I am on a i5 3570k, liquid cooled, on a brand new gigabyte HDD with a clean windows install :]

So I went to bestbuy and checked out the blackwidow. They only had the one with the blue switches, and I can see why some people would complain about issues when you are double tapping. I honestly expected the keys to have more of a tactile feel than they do. Not a bad thing, I just didn't expect it.

Also, great news! The sample kit from WASD keyboards came in today. I have one black, red, blue, and brown switch each now, along with 11 different color key caps and some o-rings. Would someone care to explain what I would want to use the o-rings for? I'm assuming its if you don't like the sound coming from bottoming out. There are different colored ones, do they vary in stiffness or is it just me?

Anyways, so the switches. Overall, there isn't as much difference between the keys as I imagined. However, I was immediately drawn to the red switch, and turned off by the black switch. The blacks are very stiff! My decision is just as I figured it would be, between the browns and the reds.

My initial fear was that the reds were going to feel insanely soft. They are noticeably the softest, but not overly so. I only have 1 of each switch, so I don't know how it would be full on typing on them, but the reds seem like my favorite. Why do some people say they hate typing on reds? That being said, the browns are really nice too. They are soft, and have just that tiny tiny bump with a much quicker reset than the blues.

Meh. Either reds or browns. Help me!?

[Saturn]

Why do some people say they hate typing on reds? That being said, the browns are really nice too. They are soft, and have just that tiny tiny bump with a much quicker reset than the blues.

The thing about the reds vs the browns (and I didn't even realize this would be an issue for me until I actually got a red keyboard and started using it full-time), is that the browns have a reduction in resistance after the tactile bump, whereas reds continue to increase resistance all the way to the bottom.  So, as a result, the moment at which you feel the most resistance is the exact moment at which you release the red switch.  Some people like that, because it lends the key a "springy" feel which sort of pushes your finger back up after you're done with the keystroke.

Personally, I dislike it.  It makes reds feel more fatiguing to me (slightly), despite the fact that they only take 45 cN of force to get to the activation point and browns require 55 to get over the tactile bump.

[TotalChaos]

Would someone care to explain what I would want to use the o-rings for?

They are for preventing nerve damage and tendon damage.  Use them or die.  I am not joking around.

I'm assuming its if you don't like the sound coming from bottoming out.

A keyboard should be silent.
Any sound u hear is the result of wasted energy.
In the case of keyboards, most of the sound is the result of a violent impact of a hard piece of plastic banging into a steel plate.

> It doesn't feel violent to me, I like the impacts.

That is your brain talking and your brain is wrong.  Your cells and nerves decide what is violent and what is not.  Your cells and nerves have decided that it is violent and damaging.  If you keep making those impacts all day long day after day, year after year, you eventually get hand damage of some sort.

There is a reason why so many millions of ppl have hand problems in our modern world.  Largely because of keyboard and mouse abuse.

Put the 40A o-rings on or die, its ur choice.

There are different colored ones, do they vary in stiffness or is it just me?

Use the soft ones.

Anyways, so the switches. Overall, there isn't as much difference between the keys as I imagined. However, I was immediately drawn to the red switch, and turned off by the black switch. The blacks are very stiff! My decision is just as I figured it would be, between the browns and the reds.

My initial fear was that the reds were going to feel insanely soft. They are noticeably the softest, but not overly so. I only have 1 of each switch, so I don't know how it would be full on typing on them, but the reds seem like my favorite.

Get the Reds and the soft O-rings.

Why do some people say they hate typing on reds?

Because it can be really really hard to adjust from a Rubberdome keyboard all the way to Cherry Reds for some ppl.  I assume u r young and healthy and easily adaptable?  Get the Reds and stick with them.

If u r old and unadaptable, or u have problems with hand coordination, or anything of that sort then it can take 3 months to get fully used to Reds.
Lots of ppl say it only takes 2 weeks to get used to them.  Honestly, u sound like me, a hardcore gamer.  I think u will be adapted in 24 hours.

[pankakes]

Good point, Saturn. I do feel what you mean and understand that the browns may be easier to type on for longer periods because of this. I can also see why browns are sometimes considered muddy reds. Eh, I don't really know which one of the two I like better still, haha.

Unless I can get convinced otherwise, I think I am going to go with the reds. I just hope it doesn't end up being a mistake. We'll see.

Now comes the hard part. Where the hell can I buy one of these?

Ducky Shine II TKL Blue LED mx-red switches. - Can't find one in stock on tigerimports, amazon, or mechanicalkeyboards. Anyone have any ideas?


-Sidenote: haha TotalChaos, thanks for the all in one reply! You make me feel much more confident about my decision. I am 24, and game a good amount, so I bet I can pick it up quickly. I'll get a set of the o-rings, they are placed up on the underside of the keycap, correct? I can see what you mean. Now if only I could stop cracking my knuckles every 20 minutes....

[TotalChaos]

I'll get a set of the o-rings, they are placed up on the underside of the keycap, correct?

Yep, nice and easy.

Now comes the hard part. Where the hell can I buy one of these?

Here is the deal:  If you want an LED keyboard well, all LED keycaps are made by painting regular transluscent keycaps then lasering off the legends so the light can shine thru.  The problem is, its paint.  It will eventually crack and fall off.  You can't really expect the keycaps to last more than 3 years.  You could get unlucky and get ones that fall apart in 6 weeks like happened to LeslieAnn.

I love the idea of LED keyboards but... the keycaps can't last as long as regular keycaps and I am sick of getting ripped off so I have chosen to just limit myself to regular keyboards.

I recommend a WASD or Filco.  WASD keyboards are less $$$ than Filco and have more customization options.    And WASD already has all ur credit card infoz 

[pankakes]

I have had this same old dell keyboard for ten years. I have never faced an issue with the letters/finish wearing off the keys. Is this a common thing among mechanical keyboards? This is a super cheap keyboard and it has stood up to a lot of use, why can't a keyboard that is over $100 hold up to the same? 

[TotalChaos]

I have had this same old dell keyboard for ten years.

Does it have LED backlight?  Nope.

I have never faced an issue with the letters/finish wearing off the keys.

I never did either until I got a new $99.00 computer in 2005 from Fry's.  That rubberdome keyboard had pad printed keys that only lasted 90 days of light typing before they were completely erased.

Is this a common thing among mechanical keyboards? This is a super cheap keyboard and it has stood up to a lot of use, why can't a keyboard that is over $100 hold up to the same?

If u get a normal springloaded keyboard from WASD it should last you 10 years I assume.

If u get a backlit keyboard then the keys should last 6 weeks to 3 years.

I am only mentioning all this to you because you said you were interested in getting a quality product that would last and last and last.

If you get a backlit keyboard then you are gambling with the paintjob.  Does the paint on your house last 10 years?  Does the paint on your car last 10 years?  Car companies spend gazillions of $$$ to get their paint formula right so it can last.  A lot of keyboard companies are smalltime and they don't have the $$$ or manpower to research paint formulas.

Have u ever painted a fence or something?  How long did it last?

I just stay away from painted keys and get regular plastic keys.

But its all up to u, whatever you want.

[pankakes]

I understand. I do want a product that will really last. What would be your suggestion?

[Preach]

I am coming from a laptop only background and this is my first tower setup.

When I was doing some research I was choosing between red, black, and browns.
I ended up choosing browns because reds were on the expensive side along with seemed they would offer too much of a light feeling.
On the browns you don't have to bottom out. You can easily press the key to a certain point and have it actuate.

I found the browns are the perfect switch for me given that I play WoW the most which requires a lot of key presses and have to type a lot for work.

Ultimately the choice is up to you and what you think would be good for the reasons you would want a mechanical keyboard.

Good luck in your choice and I'm sure whatever you decide to go with, you will be happy that you made the jump to mechanical.

[pankakes]

Starting this back up, as I still have not bought.

I really like the Ninja Majestouch-2 TKL MX-Red.

I definitely want red switches and tenkeyless.

I have been looking at the KBT line and really love their simple awesome look. I have heard mixed reviews about Vortex though. Eh? I like the KBT ONI. PBT caps :]



KBT ONI or Filco Ninja Majestouch-2? Or another?!