Self built 60% (mostly questions)

[Denisgsv]

Hello everyone been lurking for a while, decided i wanted to try and built a proper keyboard myself.



So so far i havedecided i wanted the case from kbdfans : 5° 60% keyboard aluminum case


Switches probably: zealios 67 (accepting some advice here , havent tried them YET, ppl say they are amazing tho)

My main issue atm is finding a decent PCB, i would like also to be able to mod it with holtite sockets. ok no holtite sockets, it seems soldering good ol' way is better
I'm also not sure if i should buy the "plate" toghether with PCB or with the case ? ok seems plate and pcb should be in combo

must have : case, pcb, plate, switches, keycaps, holtite sockets(switches)
nice to have : custom cable, leds, holtite sockets(leds).

So far kbdfans has both pcb and plate (with split space bar) i didnt knew i want, but i know now.
Other solution is banana split. (need to wait for november)

so any advice ?
thanks

[Zobeid Zuma]

Hello everyone been lurking for a while, decided i wanted to try and built a proper keyboard myself.

I am in a similar boat, getting ready to build my first.

So so far i havedecided i wanted the case from kbdfans : 5° 60% keyboard aluminum case

The new one they are now taking pre-orders for?  It does look good.  I may get one too, although I've already put in my order for the Teamwolf heavy aluminum case.

Switches probably: zealios 67

Have you examined any of the new Kailh BOX switches?  They've won me over.

My main issue atm is finding a decent PCB, i would like also to be able to mod it with holtite sockets.
I'm also not sure if i should buy the "plate" toghether with PCB or with the case ?

I believe the plate should generally be matched to the PCB, unless you get a case with the plate integrated (like a Clueboard kit).

BTW, a lot of Outemu switches now come with sockets.  I tried the Outemu ICE Purple switches, which are basically Zealios clones, and they seem pretty good.  However, I don't think the sockets are compatible with other brands, so you'd only be able to swap between other Outemu switches.  (Which are generally good.  I'm also fond of Outemu blues.)

Getting a PCB has also been a challenge for me, especially since I am very determined that I want a split space bar, and most of them don't support it.  I ordered a new DZ60 PCB from KBDfans.  I haven't heard too much about that one, so I guess I'll find out for myself.  And if that doesn't work out (or even if it does, probably) I'll be up for round 2 of the Banana Split 60 kit, which is supposed to be unveiled around the end of October.  That's what I really want, but I am impatient.

[Denisgsv]

Yes that case, it seemed good value for only 80$, worst case scenario if i will give up or find something else i should be able to sell it probably without huge loss (tho 80 in this business seems a good price)

Kalih, nope. Havent searched for them to be honest, there are just soo many.
Each time i think i found the one there is the next one which seems a tiny bit better, (thats why i avoid topre)
If i like browns, i assume i should go for Kalih browns aswell ?

Same thing with outemu like above, as i understood they have something which works like this : https://kbdfans.myshopify.com/collections/keyboard-part/products/switch-led-hot-swap-32pcs 
Is that corect ? Instead of making the PCB swapable, u make switches so ?

ill check the banana split,  my project will surely be a lot slower.
Never thought about split spacebar, now it makes so much sense.

[ideus]

As a reliability engineer, using sockets for switches makes no sense at all. It adds another layer of potential circuit failures. Having a notched plate for switch's internals refitting makes a more elegant solution, for trying other MX switch's stems or springs.

[Denisgsv]

As a reliability engineer, using sockets for switches makes no sense at all. It adds another layer of potential circuit failures. Having a notched plate for switch's internals refitting makes a more elegant solution, for trying other MX switch's stems or springs.

but a notched plate still needs pcb to have holtite sockets is that right ?
Cant i combine notched plate + sockets for swapable switches ?

[Zobeid Zuma]

Yes that case, it seemed good value for only 80$, worst case scenario if i will give up or find something else i should be able to sell it probably without huge loss (tho 80 in this business seems a good price)

I have some difficulty buying directly from Chinese companies.  I wish somebody would import and distribute this kind of stuff.

Kalih, nope. Havent searched for them to be honest, there are just soo many.
Each time i think i found the one there is the next one which seems a tiny bit better, (thats why i avoid topre)
If i like browns, i assume i should go for Kalih browns aswell ?

The basic Kailh brown switch is yet another Cherry MX brown clone.  It's a good one, at least as good as Cherry IMHO, but. . .  All these brown switches, you put them on a tester side-by-side, and you can detect subtle differences, but then put them on an actual keyboard and type, and I think you'd never know which was which.

The new Kailh BOX switches are something else.  They are partially sealed to make them resistant to dust and liquids, and they feel-and-sound different from the regular clones.  The tactile ones have their "bump" right at the beginning of key travel, then it's smooth to the bottom.  The box brown is the regular version, and burnt orange is the same thing with a heavier spring.  Based on playing with the samples, I'd love to build a keyboard with them.  However, I got the samples from NovelKeys, and they are sold out right now.

Also FYI, the BOX white and pale blue are the clicky versions.  They have a unique double-click, a sharp click when you press down and another when you release.

Same thing with outemu like above, as i understood they have something which works like this : https://kbdfans.myshopify.com/collections/keyboard-part/products/switch-led-hot-swap-32pcs 
Is that corect ? Instead of making the PCB swapable, u make switches so ?

Looks like the same idea.  The pins have tiny aluminum sleeves on them, so you solder the sleeve into your PCB, then later the switch can be pulled and replaced without desoldering.

[ideus]

As a reliability engineer, using sockets for switches makes no sense at all. It adds another layer of potential circuit failures. Having a notched plate for switch's internals refitting makes a more elegant solution, for trying other MX switch's stems or springs.

but a notched plate still needs pcb to have holtite sockets is that right ?
Cant i combine notched plate + sockets for swapable switches ?

No. Switch's bottoms are soldered directly to the PCB and you only disassemble the tops to change the internals. The switch's connections are permanents, therefore reliable.

[Denisgsv]

No. Switch's bottoms are soldered directly to the PCB and you only disassemble the tops to change the internals. The switch's connections are permanents, therefore reliable.

So basically you advice for plate + soldering into pcb, no holtite sockets. (fair enough) it does make sense i gues.


Zobeid Zuma

Atm i really like the banana pcb, was wondering does that bottom (double space bar) row create any problems with finding the keycaps ?

[Zobeid Zuma]

Atm i really like the banana pcb, was wondering does that bottom (double space bar) row create any problems with finding the keycaps ?

I think those key sizes were chosen so you can use standard shift keys as spacebars, which is what I've seen done on most of the builds.  I'd like to get actual convex spacebars, which are hard to find, but they do exist.  Or if that fails, it may be possible to have them 3D-printed.  Where there's a will there's a way.

[Denisgsv]

btw you mentioned DZ60 PCB from keyboard fans, i realised now it can have double space bar, but the plate for it : CNC 60% Aluminum Plate, seems not to support 3 buttons instead of a space bar ?
If that is indeed so, what plate did you choose ? 

[Zobeid Zuma]

btw you mentioned DZ60 PCB from keyboard fans, i realised now it can have double space bar, but the plate for it : CNC 60% Aluminum Plate, seems not to support 3 buttons instead of a space bar ?
If that is indeed so, what plate did you choose ? 

If you buy it through their store on AliExpress here -->  https://www.aliexpress.com/item/DZ60-Custom-mechanical-keyboard-PCB-60-keyboard-support-arrow-key/32824638057.html

. . .there does appear to be a kit option that includes the proper plate with support for split space bars.  I'm not sure why that isn't available if you buy through the kbdfans.myshopify.com site.

Keyclack.com also produced a very limited run of 60% universal brass plates that included split spacebar support.  It looks like they only sold a few of those -- but I found somebody who used one on his Banana Split build and thus had the original steel plate left over, so I'm getting that.

Worst case scenario, it's always possible to have a plate custom made by a waterjet or laser cutting service.  (Or just PCB-mount everything and not use any plate at all!)

[TalkingTree]

Europeans can buy PCBs from a few different stores such as Falbatech for the GH60 rev C, Candykeys for the FaceW sprit's edition or Mekanisk who used to sell GON NerD60.

Plates are not mandatory.

[Denisgsv]

Europeans can buy PCBs from a few different stores such as Falbatech for the GH60 rev C, Candykeys for the FaceW sprit's edition or Mekanisk who used to sell GON NerD60.

Plates are not mandatory.

Grazie mille
I checked Mekanisk seems under reconstruction.
The other two do indeed sell pcb plates, will check later if they also support split space bar.
(even if plates arent mandatory)  i have already a certain number of switches and all are to be used with plate, and also for aesthetics i would like a plate ... so its kinda a must have for me at this point.

[TalkingTree]

I checked Mekanisk seems under reconstruction.

Mekanisk is run by our fellow geekhacker LeandreN, you can PM him.

The other two do indeed sell pcb plates, will check later if they also support split space bar.

Neither do.

(even if plates arent mandatory)  i have already a certain number of switches and all are to be used with plate, and also for aesthetics i would like a plate ... so its kinda a must have for me at this point.

That's wise as plates add rigidity and stability.

[Denisgsv]

need some help, how do i learn qmk ?

intend to have this layout :
https://i.imgur.com/SCiWXOe.png
But i wanted to change it a bit, make ESC a proper esc. Make button near "right shift" into this "<>" <--- ISO layout.
Caps lock and right windows into "fn" (pok3r style)
I never used QMK yet but i understand it can do anything so that should be possible, so where do i start, do i need to make it all from scratch or can i only change the things i need ?

Any help is apreciated, thanks.

[TalkingTree]

You need to define your own keymap and you can use the one in the default subfolder of your PCB. Which one is it?

[Denisgsv]

Well, i expect it will have a default one, i was thinking i could start there.
First i want to "fix" default layout so to speak, then i want to fn+x layout.
If that is possible.

the stuff i found is this :
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9XoYZuzpjWnMDhvd0gyYnBjYU0/view
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9XoYZuzpjWndDFrTm9waVRtY0JrREVxWTRBSlpYa3JmX3pv/view

But i dont see any layout in neither of them which can be configured, hence the question ...

[TalkingTree]

Download QMK from github.
Navigate to ./keyboards/_YOUR_PCB_/keymaps/default and edit the keymap.c file to your liking.
Compile the source and flash the hex file to your MCU with your favourite method.

[Denisgsv]

Ok, nice i found the layout. By the look of it "standart layout 0" should be easy, insert buttons i need in correct places.
still no idea how to program layers but ill figure it out (hopefully)

what i wanted to ask about :
  Compile--> any advice with what ? and what exactly is "the source" my knowledge in programing is limited and even more in C.
  What and where is the hex file, and i dont have any methods (never done it) so an advice on what method to use ?

grazie ancora 

[TalkingTree]

Ok, nice i found the layout. By the look of it "standart layout 0" should be easy, insert buttons i need in correct places.
still no idea how to program layers but ill figure it out (hopefully)

Copy and paste your layer and make the changes you like, it will count as a different layer and it will be accessible with a Fn button. You can either make it momentary, so the layer will be active only when the Fn button is held down, or toggled so you need to press the Fn button again to return to the main layer. Needless to say you need to define the Fn key on the secondary layer as well. This keymap should give you the idea.

  Compile--> any advice with what ? and what exactly is "the source" my knowledge in programing is limited and even more in C.
  What and where is the hex file, and i dont have any methods (never done it) so an advice on what method to use ?

The official documentation will surely explain the process better than I could possibly do. The .hex file will be saved in the qmk/keyboards subfolder. You then need to flash the MCU but let's start compiling the source first.

grazie ancora

Figurati.

[Denisgsv]

came across this nice configurator made the default layout.
http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/gists/1a23f89fd9ddc574e46661b4bae62aa1

trying to see how to combine that with : http://www.kbfirmware.com/

[TalkingTree]

You need to paste the raw data output from the KLE into the configurator, select the board and generate the firmware.

Also keep in mind that you need to use the standard ANSI layout to generate your firmware. Your computer will translate the scancodes into the italian characters.

[Denisgsv]

i tried what you just said, could not select the board (it wasnt there)
he created this wiring : https://i.imgur.com/PIV3ZU0.png
need to find dz60 wiring to compare if its corect.


a bit confused about what i need to map here : https://i.imgur.com/1O6FbJV.png
i think that's what you meant that i need to use "standard ansi layout", if i understood correctly i should map into those buttons something like this : https://i.imgur.com/jXSe9Zt.png

i suppose the computer knows already what characters are on "shift + modifier"  so i need to map only layers i want as bonus (for example layer1,2)

lets assume problems above are solved, i have hex file, what should i do with it ?

[Denisgsv]

found this :
http://qmkeyboard.cn/

same thing as above but chinese .... With a smilar layout listed there.  DZ60带方向配列
but it has splited backspace ( 2 buttons instead of 1 )  ... ansi enter.
i'm still not sure what character goes on ISO keyboard between left shift and Z/Y.  Ansi keyboards totally miss that character :|

[ideus]

The picture you referred to shows an ISO layout with non standard right shift and arrows. It is not the standard ANSI layout.

[Denisgsv]

The picture you referred to shows an ISO layout with non standard right shift and arrows. It is not the standard ANSI layout.

i referred lots of pictures ... Which one ?
From my understanding i should map this : https://i.imgur.com/RDSx1bh.png ? is that right?

[TalkingTree]

need to find dz60 wiring to compare if its corect.

The QMK github repository already contains the DZ60 build so you don't need to configure any wiring, but your keymap alone. You can surely use those websites to compile your firmware granted that you provide the keymap with the raw data output from the KLE.

a bit confused about what i need to map here : https://i.imgur.com/1O6FbJV.png

Make sure that the key next to Left Shift is set to NUBS which stands for Non US Backslash, in other words, the extra key on ISO keyboard.

if i understood correctly i should map into those buttons something like this : https://i.imgur.com/jXSe9Zt.png

Correct.

i suppose the computer knows already what characters are on "shift + modifier"  so i need to map only layers i want as bonus (for example layer1,2)

Yes. The computer will receive scancodes from your keyboard and translate them to characters according to the encoding you defined in your operating system; most likely Italian (Italy).

lets assume problems above are solved, i have hex file, what should i do with it ?

Flash it to your MCU. There are a number of ways to do that, such as using FLIP or the dfu-programmer.

[Denisgsv]

ok so far :
i made the layout in KLE (hope got mapping right)
transfered it succesfully into kbfirmware (hope again layout is correct)

Only one question ... if generated "wiring" is ok.

[Denisgsv]

found another guy who had a problem with qmk and dz60 pcb, it seems you need to configure pins correctly

https://i.imgur.com/VtcNzDr.png

leaving this here, one never knows it may be usefull.

[Zobeid Zuma]

found another guy who had a problem with qmk and dz60 pcb, it seems you need to configure pins correctly

https://i.imgur.com/VtcNzDr.png

leaving this here, one never knows it may be usefull.

Not sure why you would need to reassign any pins.  That should all be taken care of in the default DZ60 code.

[Denisgsv]

found another guy who had a problem with qmk and dz60 pcb, it seems you need to configure pins correctly

https://i.imgur.com/VtcNzDr.png

leaving this here, one never knows it may be usefull.

Not sure why you would need to reassign any pins.  That should all be taken care of in the default DZ60 code.

well there is no default code, you start from scratch in the web configurator. in chinese version there are a few dz60 configurations but none of them is like mine.