[IC] JTK Tripleshot Griseann and Royal Alpha (November 13 - December 4)

[jagger27]

Wow the attention to detail in this kit. I just noticed the Gr of the Alt Gr kit is a different colour.

[Endeavour1934]

New renders will show the ÷, will fix the sublegend color issue on that one key, and the 5 will have the euro sign on it.

I hope you also fixed the Å, render shows a dot over it, instead of the correct circle.

[HoodrowThrillson]

New renders will show the ÷, will fix the sublegend color issue on that one key, and the 5 will have the euro sign on it.

I hope you also fixed the Å, render shows a dot over it, instead of the correct circle.

Yes, this was fixed also.

[Ramen Champ]

This is hype - can't wait for the gb!

[pr0ximity]

New renders in queue for the fixes.

This weekend I spent a good deal of time reflecting on what I wanted this set to look like and it really boiled down to me wanting GMK Griseann but never being able to get it.
With that being said, I understand that the sublegends aren't 100% accurate (and I hate to do this) but it's more aesthetic. I really hate having to use the aesthetic defense as a means of getting what I want. Everyone's concerns are valid and I understand them.

New renders will show the ÷, will fix the sublegend color issue on that one key, and the 5 will have the euro sign on it.

After these changes, I don't expect any more since we're ready to move this into GB. The overarching reason why some changes didn't happen (addition of keys, addition of more tripleshot keys like the EU ones, etc.) is going to be the cost. New molds are very very very expensive and the cost of these are going to be trickled down to y'all. We'll try to make prices competitive but there's only so much I can do on my end to make it the same price as typical JTK sets.

Thank you all.

You do you, I'm still in. Set is looking great 

[soilheart]

New renders in queue for the fixes.

This weekend I spent a good deal of time reflecting on what I wanted this set to look like and it really boiled down to me wanting GMK Griseann but never being able to get it.
With that being said, I understand that the sublegends aren't 100% accurate (and I hate to do this) but it's more aesthetic. I really hate having to use the aesthetic defense as a means of getting what I want. Everyone's concerns are valid and I understand them.

New renders will show the ÷, will fix the sublegend color issue on that one key, and the 5 will have the euro sign on it.

After these changes, I don't expect any more since we're ready to move this into GB. The overarching reason why some changes didn't happen (addition of keys, addition of more tripleshot keys like the EU ones, etc.) is going to be the cost. New molds are very very very expensive and the cost of these are going to be trickled down to y'all. We'll try to make prices competitive but there's only so much I can do on my end to make it the same price as typical JTK sets.

Thank you all.

I totally understand, but as noted, in this case the difference to donutcat's PBT version is then not large enough for me join the GB (and it also makes a bit sad to know that the JTK "US Intl." sets form now on most likely always will have these small errors, as no-one probably will ever pay for new molds with correct sublegends etc.).

Good luck with the IC and subsequent GB, I appreciate the effort you're putting into it, even though I personally won't be joining the GB this time.

[mongoose27]

Count me in for the Griseann. 

[Plumekeyboards]

Damn, loving the Griseann Base, looks clean and could use more triple shot.

[Kinesiologist]

Hello, will there be a Canadian vendor to proxy this set? thank you.

[jouz]

(and it also makes a bit sad to know that the JTK "US Intl." sets form now on most likely always will have these small errors, as no-one probably will ever pay for new molds with correct sublegends etc.).

I think this is a pretty strong argument...

With that being said, I understand that the sublegends aren't 100% accurate (and I hate to do this) but it's more aesthetic. I really hate having to use the aesthetic defense as a means of getting what I want. Everyone's concerns are valid and I understand them.

If you're using the "aesthetic defense" I'm sure you already tried it with the fixed legends?
I think it could have been helpful to support your argument for "better aesthetics" with comparison renders (there is no point though if your mind is set!)

I'll be stacking up on JTK Griseann either way

PS: Any chance you could address my earlier question? I assume its R4 R4 since that's what GMK Griseann was, and most JTK sets look like they use R4 R4 (which is what I also prefer)

Btw, are the bottom two rows same profile (i.e. R4 R4) or different profile (R4 R5)?

[wowaweewa]

I'm in! Whit eon black keysets are the best, but add a little green and they go great with a green keyboard!

[ideus]

Make the legends right is in the best interest of the manufacturer with a benefit for the consumers. It is also a once for all solution. Do not miss the chance to do it.

[HoodrowThrillson]

Make the legends right is in the best interest of the manufacturer with a benefit for the consumers. It is also a once for all solution. Do not miss the chance to do it.

I completely agree. Both sides are very valid in their arguments but I chose to make the decision to move forward with the aesthetic option.

I did photoshop it with the correct sublegend placement but it wasn't as nice to look at (in my opinion).

The original goal of this project was to see tripleshot Griseann since we have the tech for it and that's what I plan on bringing.

To the person above asking about row, it'll be R4 R4 (112344).

[HoodrowThrillson]

Good morning (for me), final kits posted, updated renders.

Waiting to hear back from NK and zF on other details.

[konstantin]

Good morning (for me), final kits posted, updated renders.

Waiting to hear back from NK and zF on other details.

Will you not be removing 1.75u spaces? Seeing as the set has no 40% support, it's a waste of keys for people who are looking to get multiple spacebar kits.

[depletedvespene]

Okay, I can't take this anymore. I know this is a bit late (a kilobyte late, whatever), but I'm going to say it so it will be a recorded matter.

The majority of the "secondary" legends in the alphas are misplaced. Yes, I know this is how it was done in the first "US international" keycap set, but it was done wrong then and those errors still persist now (and this is not questioning the... questionable... choices made in Microsoft's version of the US international layout, which is a different matter).

How so?

Each key has four corners.
- The lower left corner takes the symbol in the base layer.
- The upper left corner takes the symbol in the Shift layer (if any... but it's exceedingly rare that there should not be one).
- The lower right corner takes the symbol in the AltGr layer (if any).
- The upper right corner symbol takes the symbol in the AltGr-Shift layer (if any).

- LETTERS take two spaces (lowercase in base, upper case in Shift), and to avoid making the keycap look excessively busy, the lowercase is omitted, so only the uppercase shows up in the upper left corner.
- Same goes with letters accessible through AltGr (lowercase in AltGr, uppercase in AltGr-Shift), and the same lowercase omission is made.

So...

A) All the keycaps that include a secondary letter (A/Á, N/Ñ, P/Ö, Z/Æ etc.) should present the secondary letter in the upper right corner instead of the lower right. ALL the letters are wrong, except ß (which is lowercase — the US international layout doesn't support the character ẞ ).

Note aside: the C with cedilla is pictured as lowercase: ç instead of Ç.

B) SOME non-letter symbols ARE placed in the lower right corner, and this is correct, as they are accessed through AltGr: ® ¿ ½ × ¶ µ (etc.). Some symbols ARE placed in the upper right corner, and this is correct, as they are accessed through AltGr-Shift: ¹ £ ÷ (etc).

HOWEVER, several symbols are accessed through AltGr, but they are placed in the upper right corner instead of the lower right corner: ² ³ € ¥ « » ... they should be moved down.


I'm relieved. But I still dispise Microsoft's fork of the US International layout.

[Endeavour1934]

Note aside: the C with cedilla is pictured as lowercase: ç instead of Ç.

How did I miss this?

[jouz]

A) All the keycaps that include a secondary letter (A/Á, N/Ñ, P/Ö, Z/Æ etc.) should present the secondary letter in the upper right corner instead of the lower right. ALL the letters are wrong, except ß (which is lowercase — the US international layout doesn't support the character ẞ ).

Thank you for your analysis, it makes total sense.

Now, when talking about the regular alphas, I can absolutely see why @HoodrowThrillson prefers to take some artistic liberty (or rather: keep the inherited liberties), because putting the secondary uppercase letters in the top-right really would look wrong - don't you agree? The behavior of the regular alphas is self-explanatory. For the more symbol-y keys on the alphas, where the "rules" are not self-explanatory (such as ß/§ or ©/¢) the legends seem mostly correct (well, except for «» I think?).

To me, the fixes suggested by @Endeavour1934 (putting ², ³, and ¥ on the bottom right) are the only ones I would really hope for (plus the ones you pointed out in addition: €, «, » and ç), as the current placement does not have the benefit of the "self-explanatoryness" of the letters on the alpha keys, and they violate how the keys to their left and right behave.

[depletedvespene]

A) All the keycaps that include a secondary letter (A/Á, N/Ñ, P/Ö, Z/Æ etc.) should present the secondary letter in the upper right corner instead of the lower right. ALL the letters are wrong, except ß (which is lowercase — the US international layout doesn't support the character ẞ ).

Thank you for your analysis, it makes total sense.

Now, when talking about the regular alphas, I can absolutely see why @HoodrowThrillson prefers to take some artistic liberty (or rather: keep the inherited liberties), because putting the secondary uppercase letters in the top-right really would look wrong - don't you agree?

To each his or her own, of course, BUT... I totally disagree: getting the secondary uppercase legend in the lower right corner is precisely what looks dead wrong to me. And since the US international layout adds so many letters to the tertiary (AltGr) and quaternary (AltGr-Shift) layers, it looks VERY wrong.

The behavior of the regular alphas is self-explanatory. For the more symbol-y keys on the alphas, where the "rules" are not self-explanatory (such as ß/§ or ©/¢) the legends seem mostly correct (well, except for «» I think?).

To me, the fixes suggested by @Endeavour1934 (putting ², ³, and ¥ on the bottom right) are the only ones I would really hope for (plus the ones you pointed out in addition: €, «, » and ç), as the current placement does not have the benefit of the "self-explanatoryness" of the letters on the alpha keys, and they violate how the keys to their left and right behave.

The real problem is that this keycap set follows previous sets that add aditional legends, which are not meant to be decorative, but instead describe the symbols available in the (Microsoft's version of the) US International layout, and therefore needs to describe accurately what that layout provides, despite the rather poor... layouting... of t(MVot)UsIntLay itself, and the inherited placement mistakes in earlier sets.

Therefore, it comes off as inescapable that the superscript numbers (² and ³), the euro (€) and yen (¥) currency symbols, and the angle quotes (« and ») are all misplaced and should be put in the lower right corner, because when using t(MVot)UsIntLay, they're typed with AltGr and not AltGr-Shift. OTOH, the superscript one (¹) needs to remain in the upper right corner because it's typed with AltGr-Shift, even though it looks inconsistent with the ² and ³ symbols (again, this visual inconsistency is unskippable, because the t(MVot)UsIntLay IS defined this way).



Have I mentioned that I have a pretty low opinion of t(MVot)UsIntLay?



Oh... and there's one more thing. In t(MVot)UsIntLay, AltGr-\ produces the ¬ symbol... yet here is placed in the wrong corner, too, as the lower right corner has the Backspace symbol... probably an appeasing compromise made long ago to satisfy those who used the HHKB-style Backspace, but that makes no sense to retain in this set, given it does have a separate R2 1.5U keycap.

P.S.: I recently found OS/2's version of the US International layout. I hate t(MVot)UsIntLay so much, that I'm going to add a special mention of this other implementation in my "A Visual Comparison..." page just to spite Monopolistic Bill. 

[pr0ximity]

TIL

[HoodrowThrillson]

Lots of knowledge is being dropped here (all of which is super interesting).

Only fix I'll be doing is ensuring that the C with the tail is capital instead of lowercase.

[konstantin]

A) All the keycaps that include a secondary letter (A/Á, N/Ñ, P/Ö, Z/Æ etc.) should present the secondary letter in the upper right corner instead of the lower right. ALL the letters are wrong, except ß (which is lowercase — the US international layout doesn't support the character ẞ ).

Thank you for your analysis, it makes total sense.

Now, when talking about the regular alphas, I can absolutely see why @HoodrowThrillson prefers to take some artistic liberty (or rather: keep the inherited liberties), because putting the secondary uppercase letters in the top-right really would look wrong - don't you agree?

To each his or her own, of course, BUT... I totally disagree: getting the secondary uppercase legend in the lower right corner is precisely what looks dead wrong to me. And since the US international layout adds so many letters to the tertiary (AltGr) and quaternary (AltGr-Shift) layers, it looks VERY wrong.

I have to respectfully disagree. Putting alpha legends in the bottom right corner is a stylistic choice that is acceptable to make. Alphas occupy both the shifted and non-shifted positions (in this case both AltGr and Shift+AltGr). This is something that's been done in professionally designed keyboards for decades, for obvious reasons (it looks better). As a matter of fact, you'd be hard-pressed to find any keyboard that does it the way you described with both legends in the top, i.e. the 100% proper way.

Alphas do differ in casing between shifted and non-shifted positions, but any user that is familiar with keyboards and the Latin alphabet will be able to (intuitively) deduce that the uppercase character is produced by holding Shift, even if the legend is located near the bottom. So there is no issue going with the aesthetically more pleasing choice in this case.

For example, this is why it was okay for Apple to put uppercase alphas in the bottom left corner on their Extended Keyboards, while keeping numbers and symbols in their usual positions. They didn't totally flip the base and shifted layers around; they just chose to put alpha legends in the bottom left corner for aesthetic reasons, and it didn't impact usability negatively because humans don't take things that literally.




However, what is not okay is putting symbols in places where they can't be produced, or which correspond to other characters. If a symbol is produced by holding Shift+AltGr and pressing 1, the only acceptable position for the sublegend (from a usability standpoint) is the top-right corner of the 1 key. Similarly, if a symbol is produced by holding AltGr and pressing 2 (and Shift+AltGr+2 does nothing), the only acceptable position is the bottom right corner of the 2 key. Doing it differently is bad because, unlike putting alphas in the bottom corner, it literally misrepresents the layout and impacts usability.

Here's an IBM Russian/English keyboard to demonstrate what I mean:



Alphas can be seen in both the top and bottom corners, but the symbols are always in the correct positions.


In summary, these are the parts I agree with and believe should be changed in the set:

Note aside: the C with cedilla is pictured as lowercase: ç instead of Ç.

HOWEVER, several symbols are accessed through AltGr, but they are placed in the upper right corner instead of the lower right corner: ² ³ € ¥ « » ... they should be moved down.

If it isn't done now, who knows if it'll ever be done. The rest of the legends, especially the alphas, are fine.



Edit: You'll notice that there are several options for the pipe key. This is because it isn't as clear-cut as the rest. The sublegends here are actually being used to represent two distinct things: alternative layout options with the ⌫ (similar to Lock/Control), and US-International characters with the ¬ and ¦. It's up to the runner to decide whether he wants to go with a mixed approach (1°, 2°) or stick to just one (3°, 4°). That being said, any of the four options in the above image is correct, it's just the original Griseann one (bottom ⌫, top ¬) that's wrong.

[jouz]

Show Image

Thank you for working this out, @konstantin. This exactly reflects how I feel about it.
I prefer pipe version 4, since there already is the HHKB backspace as @depletedvespene pointed out.

@HoodrowThrillson could you at least see it in your heart to offer an "OCD" kit with the correct legends?  :))

[konstantin]

I prefer pipe version 4, since there already is the HHKB backspace as @depletedvespene pointed out.

This is a good point.

[depletedvespene]

…
I have to respectfully disagree. Putting alpha legends in the bottom right corner is a stylistic choice that is acceptable to make. Alphas occupy both the shifted and non-shifted positions (in this case both AltGr and Shift+AltGr). This is something that's been done in professionally designed keyboards for decades, for obvious reasons (it looks better). As a matter of fact, you'd be hard-pressed to find any keyboard that does it the way you described with both legends in the top, i.e. the 100% proper way.

I have to further respectfully disagree (take notice, kids: this is as close to a knife fight as konstantin and I are ever going to get  ) — there IS a standard, and following the spec must trump strictly aesthetic considerations. And if some "professionally designed keyboards" did it the wrong way... well, it's still wrong. Heck, let's look at Cherry's many mistakes for a quick primer on that.

It would look "less weird" if the tertiary letters were all in lowercase in the bottom right corner... but that unwittingly produces a subtext I dislike even more.

All that said, this is ultimately an aesthetic problem (not so with the placement of some symbols, but we do agree on that part of the issue).

…
For example, this is why it was okay for Apple to put uppercase alphas in the bottom left corner on their Extended Keyboards, …

<BUZZER!>

Remember the Golden Rule of Apple and Keyboards. Also remember Apple's styling of misplaced uppercase letters is widely hated for that exact reason.

So, in short, it wasn't okay, and still isn't. And whatever Apple does gets disqualified from the start.

…

Here's an IBM Russian/English keyboard to demonstrate what I mean:

Show Image

Alphas can be seen in both the top and bottom corners, but the symbols are always in the correct positions.

Note that in this case, as in others with two differing alphabets, the contrasting corners choice is passable because it helps to mark the difference between either. This helps avoid mistaking, say, С, Н and Р for Latin letters. OTOH, on keyboards with... stark differences between alphabets, that ain't a valid consideration. Like...

[HoodrowThrillson]

Show Image

Thank you for working this out, @konstantin. This exactly reflects how I feel about it.
I prefer pipe version 4, since there already is the HHKB backspace as @depletedvespene pointed out.

@HoodrowThrillson could you at least see it in your heart to offer an "OCD" kit with the correct legends?  :))

More tripleshot molds = more money.

I don't have quotes in my hand for the cost of the base kit, but I know it'll be more expensive than usual JTK sets. Additionally, the cost of actually creating new molds is very expensive. I would have loved to have included more tripleshot keys but it boils down to keeping the cost down and trying to compete with the GMK flood.

Also a part of keeping costs down, there is a MOQ that is very large, one that would probably make everyone's jaws drop.

I am thankful for konstantin and depletedvespene for dropping some big knowledge about sublegends, but at this time I am done making changed (outside of the C with the tail being lowercase, that will be fixed in the final version, although it may not be reflected in the renders).

I really am thankful for everyone's input, but this boils down (again) to what I set out to do, which is to do a JTK version of Griseann since we have the tech to do that.

[haystack]

I really am thankful for everyone's input, but this boils down (again) to what I set out to do, which is to do a JTK version of Griseann since we have the tech to do that.

Thanks for your patience, especially since you already made clear that this is an artistic choice. As someone who regularly fumes at the implementation of Japanese sublegends on keycap sets, I appreciate the tradeoffs involved when abstract standards intersect with actual humans in real life. Your set is really good, and I'm ready to help meet that scary MOQ.

[konstantin]

More tripleshot molds = more money.

I don't have quotes in my hand for the cost of the base kit, but I know it'll be more expensive than usual JTK sets. Additionally, the cost of actually creating new molds is very expensive. I would have loved to have included more tripleshot keys but it boils down to keeping the cost down and trying to compete with the GMK flood.

Also a part of keeping costs down, there is a MOQ that is very large, one that would probably make everyone's jaws drop.

I am thankful for konstantin and depletedvespene for dropping some big knowledge about sublegends, but at this time I am done making changed (outside of the C with the tail being lowercase, that will be fixed in the final version, although it may not be reflected in the renders).

I really am thankful for everyone's input, but this boils down (again) to what I set out to do, which is to do a JTK version of Griseann since we have the tech to do that.

Ah, perhaps I misunderstood. I thought that new molds would need to be created anyway, regardless of whether you put «, » etc. in the top or bottom corner?

Do you mean to say that JTK already has tripleshot molds for these legends in their current positions, so new ones don't need to be created?

Keep in mind — we are not asking for more tripleshot keys — we are just asking that the ones that are being made anyway, be done correctly. Both for this set's and for future sets' sakes.

there IS a standard, and following the spec must trump strictly aesthetic considerations. And if some "professionally designed keyboards" did it the wrong way... well, it's still wrong. Heck, let's look at Cherry's many mistakes for a quick primer on that.

I don't necessarily agree. In this hobby, aesthetics mean a lot, so a small concession like this, a small deviation from absolute “by the book” correctness, is more than acceptable to make, I'd say. Especially if everything still remains self-consistent, as would be the case here.

Yes, I feel the pain of Cherry's mistakes every day. But hey, nowadays it's considered cool because it's “vintage”

(take notice, kids: this is as close to a knife fight as konstantin and I are ever going to get  )

[HoodrowThrillson]

All these tripleshot molds are brand new.

I wanted to add more tripleshot keys (ones for ISO users and such as another user pointed out early in the IC) but increasing the cost of the total molds = higher prices for you. Now I don't know how much these molds cost but I have heard a ball park figure that made me go 

The original intention for this set (as I've explained a few times) is to recreate GMK Griseann but in tripleshot form. I did weigh the legend correctness a lot, but every time I came back to "why did I start this IC?" so the legends, although wrong, will stand. Legend correctness is a very valid concern and I appreciate everyone who has explained where these sublegends came from.

Right now, I am waiting on pricing so I can pass those along to other vendors.

[konstantin]

The original intention for this set (as I've explained a few times) is to recreate GMK Griseann but in tripleshot form. I did weigh the legend correctness a lot, but every time I came back to "why did I start this IC?" so the legends, although wrong, will stand. Legend correctness is a very valid concern and I appreciate everyone who has explained where these sublegends came from.

Right now, I am waiting on pricing so I can pass those along to other vendors.

As unfortunate as that is to hear, I respect your decision, and I will still be picking up a set, and hoping that these inconsistencies can be fixed in a future round (once everyone has gotten their OG Griseann “fix”) or future sets Even with the discrepancies, this is still going to end up miles better than JTK's Cyrillic sets.

Thanks for your consideration and patience.

[NoPunIn10Did]

For anyone interested, I believe I have created a keyboard layout for Windows that matches the spec for Griseann.

KbdEditInstaller-US-Griseann.exe

I haven't had the opportunity to test it outside my own computer, so let me know!

[depletedvespene]

For anyone interested, I believe I have created a keyboard layout for Windows that matches the spec for Griseann.

KbdEditInstaller-US-Griseann.exe

I haven't had the opportunity to test it outside my own computer, so let me know!

What are its differences, compared to the "US International" layout that Micro$oft already provides?

[NoPunIn10Did]

For anyone interested, I believe I have created a keyboard layout for Windows that matches the spec for Griseann.

KbdEditInstaller-US-Griseann.exe

I haven't had the opportunity to test it outside my own computer, so let me know!

What are its differences, compared to the "US International" layout that Micro$oft already provides?

I just made its functionality match up to the plastic layout (assuming that C-with-cedilla becomes capitalized in the final legends).

Update: Ach, realized I made a mistake (the Ú characters hadn't been flipped).  Fix incoming!

[jouz]

For anyone interested, I believe I have created a keyboard layout for Windows that matches the spec for Griseann.

KbdEditInstaller-US-Griseann.exe

I haven't had the opportunity to test it outside my own computer, so let me know!

Oh sweet, much appreciated. This of course is also a way to fix it .
Is this a no-dead-keys variant? (And if not, would you mind making one at some point?  )

[NoPunIn10Did]

For anyone interested, I believe I have created a keyboard layout for Windows that matches the spec for Griseann.

KbdEditInstaller-US-Griseann.exe

I haven't had the opportunity to test it outside my own computer, so let me know!

Oh sweet, much appreciated. This of course is also a way to fix it .
Is this a no-dead-keys variant? (And if not, would you mind making one at some point?  )

So this was a good idea.  The most recent version of the .exe file moves all dead keys to the AltGr layer.  Whereas Grave Accent used to trigger a dead key, now AltGr+Backtick does. AltGr+Shift+6 triggers the caret dead key.  Same deal with singlequote/doublequote; the acute accent and umlaut are now the dead keys instead.

[ideus]

The standard use of US International is with dead keys like ´ ` ¨ ^ ~ '  without them it may turn a bit hard to use to write in other languages but English.

[Surefoot]

I just made its functionality match up to the plastic layout (assuming that C-with-cedilla becomes capitalized in the final legends).

To my knowledge, the US-intl and UK-intl (for ISO) on MS Windows are matching the legends ? The "ç" is lower case by default unless you shift it (then it becomes capitalized as "Ç"). Source: am using UK-intl right now.
And yeah you really need the dead keys.

[konstantin]

I was going to mention this earlier, but forgot because we got caught up discussing the sublegend positioning. Does it even make sense to include these keys?



Since the set is based specifically on and entirely around the US-International layout as seen on GMK Griseann, these UK keys don't really fit in and would just cause you to have “holes” in the sublegends on the 2, 3 and ' keys if you decided to use them. OG Griseann didn't have these keys.

It would make more sense to drop them and keep just US ISO keys (the two R3 and R4 keys that aren't circled). Even better would be having just R3 \|, R4 <> — that's proper US ISO and two less tripleshot molds.

[NoPunIn10Did]

The standard use of US International is with dead keys like ´ ` ¨ ^ ~ '  without them it may turn a bit hard to use to write in other languages but English.

The edited layout implementation posted keeps the dead keys but changes how they are accessed.

[konstantin]

To my knowledge, the US-intl and UK-intl (for ISO) on MS Windows are matching the legends ? The "ç" is lower case by default unless you shift it (then it becomes capitalized as "Ç"). Source: am using UK-intl right now.
And yeah you really need the dead keys.

Take a closer look. The issue is that the legends show certain characters, such as € and ², on the Shift+AltGr layer (top right), while in the actual layout they're on the AltGr layer (bottom right).

UK-Extended (UK-International doesn't exist as a standard layout) is not compatible with this keyset because it's lacking most of the special characters that are shown on the keys.

Edit: clarification

[ideus]

I was going to mention this earlier, but forgot because we got caught up discussing the sublegend positioning. Does it even make sense to include these keys?

Show Image

Since the set is based specifically on and entirely around the US-International layout as seen on GMK Griseann, these UK keys don't really fit in and would just cause you to have “holes” in the sublegends on the 2, 3 and ' keys if you decided to use them. OG Griseann didn't have these keys.

It would make more sense to drop them and keep just US ISO keys (the two R3 and R4 keys that aren't circled). Even better would be having just R3 \|, R4 <> — that's proper US ISO and two less tripleshot molds.

Those keys are for the UK layout and does not belong to US International. The so called ISO keys that you mentioned are a better fit for the set, as they may allow the use of an ISO Enter, if it available.

[jouz]

The standard use of US International is with dead keys like ´ ` ¨ ^ ~ '  without them it may turn a bit hard to use to write in other languages but English.

You might be surprised to hear that dead keys aren't needed for quite a few languages other than English: German, Danish, Norwegian and Swedish (correct me if I'm wrong!) all don't really need them (there may be more).

In those countries, especially programmers that prefer to use an US/ANSI style layout but still want to access their native accents prefer to use a no-dead-keys variant, as some of the dead keys are quite annoying for programming.
See here for a windows no-dead-keys layout: https://github.com/umanovskis/win-kbd-usint-nodead (which is what I'm using currently)
And I think on Ubuntu, you have the "English (international with AltGr dead keys)" Layout (which sounds like it works similarly to what NoPunIn10Did is proposing, which I think is an interesting idea!)

[Surefoot]

Take a closer look. The issue is that the legends show certain characters, such as € and ², on the Shift+AltGr layer (top right), while in the actual layout they're on the AltGr layer (bottom right).

Oh i see, indeed they should be on non-shifted layer.

UK-Extended (UK-International doesn't exist as a standard layout) is not compatible with this keyset because it's lacking most of the special characters that are shown on the keys.

Still i'm using an UK-Intl here on Ubuntu, that i customized to my preference, and another UK-Intl on Windows that's pretty much what this keyset shows (from memory, most of the altgr symbols do match). Never heard of a "standard" for those (as opposed to the various ISO national layouts), i always thought they were hacky ways of making English keyboards compatible with European languages.

[VXQN]

Eagerly awaiting this set! Think I'm gonna sell my unused GMK WoB because this just looks so much better (and comes with a split spacebars option!)

[konstantin]

Still i'm using an UK-Intl here on Ubuntu, that i customized to my preference, and another UK-Intl on Windows that's pretty much what this keyset shows (from memory, most of the altgr symbols do match). Never heard of a "standard" for those (as opposed to the various ISO national layouts), i always thought they were hacky ways of making English keyboards compatible with European languages.

Ah, I see. I'm aware of this custom layout for Windows that implements a UK international layout. It's obviously inspired by the US-International layout, but still only about half of the keys match (16/48 match exactly, 24/48 match partially), the rest are quite different. So I still wouldn't say that it's compatible with this set.

[konstantin]

I was going to mention this earlier, but forgot because we got caught up discussing the sublegend positioning. Does it even make sense to include these keys?

Show Image

Since the set is based specifically on and entirely around the US-International layout as seen on GMK Griseann, these UK keys don't really fit in and would just cause you to have “holes” in the sublegends on the 2, 3 and ' keys if you decided to use them. OG Griseann didn't have these keys.

It would make more sense to drop them and keep just US ISO keys (the two R3 and R4 keys that aren't circled). Even better would be having just R3 \|, R4 <> — that's proper US ISO and two less tripleshot molds.

Those keys are for the UK layout and does not belong to US International. The so called ISO keys that you mentioned are a better fit for the set, as they may allow the use of an ISO Enter, if it available.

Indeed, that's in line with the point I was trying to make. It doesn't seem like it'd be worth including UK keys in a set that's based on a layout that by definition isn't compatible with UK keys or UK layouts.

Removing the circled keys and keeping just R3 #~\|, R4 \|<> is fine. But even better is changing the remaining keys to either:

• R3 \|#~, R4 <>\| (swap main and sublegends); or
• R3 \|, R4 <> (swap, then remove sublegends).

This is better because it more closely matches how the layout that this set is based on looks in the ISO variant. And, in the latter case, it requires two less tripleshot molds (UK sublegends are nice to have, but not a must, as they aren't part of the layout).

As for the proposed keys, US ISO is a real thing. Both the ANSI (ANSI-INCITS 154-1988) and ISO (ISO/IEC 9995-2) standards actually explicitly allow either Enter shape for the physical layout of the keyboard, each of them just gives preference to one or the other. Any corresponding functional layout (US, US-Intl, UK, UK-Ext, ...) can then go on top of either of those.
Here are examples of US ISO on Ubuntu and Windows.
Also US-International ISO on Ubuntu and Windows.

[hexa]

Wow, so glad this exists. I hope everything goes smoothly with making this happen!

[HoodrowThrillson]

Minor update

New kitting for both base kits. We've added (what appears to be) random doubleshot alphas. Now, here's why: when JTK is making the new molds, these keys are going to be created as a byproduct. Instead of throwing them away, we'll be tossing it into the base set of each respective color way. You may wonder why a normal plain alphas kit wasn't just added? Because that would require more keys. The goal was to try to reduce waste.

Thanks y'all. Next update will be pricing and GB date.

[ookey]

Definitely in for this, looks super nice

[WhitePlate]

So stoked for this!