dual keyer layout

[tufty]

So, as time goes on, and as my hands hurt more and more, I'm considering keyers more and more seriously.  I don't care about portability, wearables, or any of that other "it'll be the wave of the future" **** that's been consistently 10 years out for the last 30+ years, and I don't have any doubts that, should I make something like this, I will end up being the only one to use it.  Still.  My hands ****ing hurt.

Allowing for 2 handed use means we have rather more chording options than a classic "one handed" keyer, whilst retaining the simplicity of (more or less) one key per finger.  With 10 fingers, there are already 55 one and 2 key combinations.  I think that's workable, at least for text entry (I'm a coder, so I do need a certain number of symbols, although I mainly code in scheme so pretty much all I need is left and right brackets and standard math symbols).  I could get away with 55 keys easily enough.

Looking around, I found ASETNIOP, and it appears its creator is here from time to time as well.  Having played with it for a while, my opinion is that it's nearly good.  Yeah, that sounds pretty damning, but I mark hard; I kinda like it.  Mostly what I don't like about it is that it loads the pinkies, and wastes the two thumbs on <SHIFT> and <SPACE>.  It's also not possible to do, as far as I can see, <SHIFT><CTRL> and various other combinations of "meta" keys.  That, and the fact that it appears to be entirely closed source. Otherwise, it appears to be going pretty much in the right direction, layout-wise, although having numbers and letters on separate layers would make my life hell (try typing a hex constant like 0xf0f0f0f0 with it and you'll see what I mean )

What else is out there which bears looking at?  Velotype's "inverse" palm keys for shift and "space after" are a fantastic idea, and something along those lines could be incorporated into a non-portable keyer, (at least) increasing the chording possibilities.  Hell, at the most basic level, 2 palm switches gives 4 layers with effectively zero cost layer shifts, although I'm not sure I'd have a need for any more than 2 layers in normal usage (shift, basically) - dedicating a switch to largely unused stuff seems wasteful.

Shape-wise, I'm looking at something similar to the "handshoe" mouse, based on a relaxed hand position and with adjustable tenting.  I figure it's possible to "load" the thumbs more than the other digits, so I'd add a PSP-style thumbstick for each hand as well as a dedicated key.  mouse on one, cursor on the other, probably, with dedicated chords for 4 mouse buttons.

Actual layout has to be based on letter and digraph frequency (and possibly trigraphs), ASETNIOP gets that largely right IMO, although I really don't think the "same fingers as QWERTY" mapping is at all useful, at least for my usage - I can touch type qwerty and didn't use that mnemonic at all when playing with ASETNIOP.  I'll probably work my layout out using relaxation techniques, and be very surprised when it's totally unlearnable.

I'm really not sure how to deal with CTRL, OPTION, COMMAND and SHIFT.  According to letterfrequency.org, (qwerty) keyboard key frequencies are as follows (I suspect that by <Del> they mean <Backspace>)

<Space> e t <Shift> a o i n s r h <Del> l d c u <Enter>
m f p g w y b , . v k ( ) _ ; " = ' - <Tab> x / 0 $ *
1 j : { } > q [ ] 2 z ! < ? 3 + 5 \ 4 # @ | 6 & 9 8 7 % ^ ~ `

Any ideas, particularly on how to deal with the "meta" keys, would be welcome.

[batfink]

<Space> e t <Shift> a o i n s r h <Del> l d c u <Enter>
m f p g w y b , . v k ( ) _ ; " = ' - <Tab> x / 0 $ *
1 j : { } > q [ ] 2 z ! < ? 3 + 5 \ 4 # @ | 6 & 9 8 7 % ^ ~ `

That's interesting to see just how common the Shift key is - only E and T are more common letters according to that source. And yet the Shift key is not a particularly easy place to reach. Even letters like Q and Z are easier to reach than Shift!  Imagine if you designed a keyboard layout where the fourth most common key was difficult to reach - nobody would take it seriously - and yet for historic reasons that's the situation we have ended up with!

If you don't use AltGr / RAlt for anything else, I would suggest making that an additional Shift. Then you can use your thumb while still being able to reach all the others keys easily.  Personally I'm really interested in split-space keyboards (with one of the keys set to be Shift) so that I could address exactly this problem in a more elegant way.

For Backspace you could use CapsLock a la Colemak.

That would cover the two most common meta keys at least.

[Sc0tTy]

Can you tell me what Keyboard you have?

Switching to a lay-out like Colemak is a lot better too, though your fingers will hurt a bit when you start out because of all the muscle memory.

Out of experience I can tell you that the HandShoe mouse is a big disappointment.. Mine is collecting dust in a drawer somewhere, it's heavy and big so you need a lot of room.

I've been using a Bamboo Pen & Touch now for years and can tell you its the best ergo mouse replacement out there (maybe those rollerbars are great too, I never liked them though). Check it out here: http://www.wacom.com/en-it/products/pen-tablets/intuos-pen-and-touch-medium

[PieterGen]

Chording has some disadvantages too. Chording with one hand -> tensions in the hand. Chording with 2 hands means more left/ right coordination is needed. This may (?) lead to more stress in the hands (?)

Have you thought about an ErgoDox (or similar) with good switches (not too heavy)? Or else the mutron?

How about the layout, you say you type code, you could lay the most used symbols on easy locations.  For text (I read " French Alps") - I doubt that Colemak (suggested before here) is very good for French. Bépo or similar would be better.

Do you mouse a lot? If so, could you use more keyboard shortcuts? I assume you have doen "the right things" already? Like correct keyboard and screen height, good chair or stool, enough variation, some excercise, like gym ("remise en forme"), karakte, yoga, swimming, whatever you like) . A friend of mine solved his RSI by visiting the gym often.....Hope all this helps a bit. Good luck anyway.



PS, j'aime beaucoup les Alpes, nous avons été a Grenoble et région (Alpe d'Huez etc.), les dernières vacances.... trop de pluie, cet été  , mais joli quand même...

[Sc0tTy]

Yeah Yoga is really helping me a lot too!!

Good keyboard, chair, mouse(replacement) and exercise will go a long way and I'm talking from experience.

You should also try a software that forces you to take breaks like WorkRave.

[tufty]

Taking all that randomly.

WRT the pen & touch, I'm 100% sold on tablets, been using them since 1998 or so.  Wacom only, I've tried the ****ty tablets with batteries in the pens.

For keyboards, I have, in no particular order :

Apple M0116 converted to USB
Matias Tactile Pro
Key64 clone with clicky Futabas
Externally-mounted Apple "Wallstreet" scissor-switch board
Thinkpad keyboard

and I've got some ugly rubber dome crap lying about as well.

The Key64 board is the closest to properly ergonomic, but it needs tearing apart and putting back together oobly-style.  Thumb buttons are badly placed (not to mention planar with the finger keys), and I got the column stagger wrong.  Most of the time, I fall back to using the M0116 or the Tactile Pro.

I don't type French, unless I can help it, which is to say I almost never need to.  AZERTY is a ****ing abomination; you have to use shift to get numbers, it's unholy.  **** that noise.  éèöç & company can get to **** as well.  I'd rather have a decent math symbols layer.

I already type colemak.  That, along with using tablets and trackballs, has been the biggest ergonomic plus I've seen.  But my hands still hurt.

So, any bright ideas for meta keys on keyers?

And yes, PieterGen, this summer was a disaster.  Although once the tourists left, the sun came out, and stayed out all autumn.

[Sc0tTy]

I'm not sure what WRT means but it seems you're already using a tablet as mouse input, IMHO it won't get any better than that (rollerbar mouse maybe).

Maybe try a Kinesis Freestyle keyboard or a TECK? Though your Key64 looks good too.

Can you tell me what kind of pain do you have and where?

FYI my hands still hurt as well, much less than before though. I can go two hours of ignoring my WorkRave without them hurting, but after that its a no go.
So I take a break every 37,50 minutes of 6,15 minutes and also a short break of 3 minutes every 18,50 minutes.
You should really give that a go.

Stretching and stuff is also very good during those breaks!

Owh and what about your chair and desk? Are they ergonomic?

[tufty]

Thanks for your interest, it's nice to find people that actually care...

However, there's a few things I haven't mentioned, and a couple of places where you appear to have misread what I originally posted.

For starters, I no longer code for money.  I now code for fun and drive chairlifts for money; unlike writing "rocket science" bespoke software for the derivatives trading industry, this is only paid slightly above minimum wage.  As such, investing in new keyboards, especially stuff like the µTron thats gonna cost me more than a month's wages, is out of the question.

Where's my pain?  Wrists (although changing my typing posture and habits have reduced that) and finger joints - extension and flexion *hurt*, as does side-to side movement; this issue is the same whatever multi-row keyboard I use, unless, as I am doing at the moment, I float my hands and type "2 fingers" rather than flexing my fingers. 

Yeah, my hands are ****ed, and that's why I'm considering a keyer, where "reaching" isn't an issue.  But what *is* an issue is how to deal with multiple meta keys on a keyer / steno type setup, and I've not seen that dealt with effectively anywhere. Velotype has its palm keys, but that only covers 2 keys.  Pedals may be the only other solution.

The mention of the HandShoe mouse was in reference to its form, not to its use.  That can get ****ed.

[hoggy]

I've only played with a few chording keyboards, but I think if you have have problems with your hands then they are likely to be more painful/awkward quicker.

I thought about suggesting the bat keyboard, as it comes it both left and right versions, but I'd be surprised if it allows chords across both halves, likely you could press a chord on the left board, and the alternate to the right board for the next chord.  Better than just one hand, and the shape doesn't look too bad from the pictures.

Have you seen the palm switches mod on the kinesis advantage?

The twiddler places the meta keys on the thumb. Oddly the chords are arranged in alpha order, but it's surprisingly efficient in comparison to alternative layouts.  It also has a trackpoint like mouse. 

Proword (a user here) has been using a Maltron for years with a highly customised shortcut system.

I found a website that shows you how to modify games controllers to attach agility switches and programming them with joy2key.  You could use this approach to place buttons where you could access them easily when chording.  Useful for Ctrl shift and alt, but don't forget that custom layers need to be activated on the same board...  Www.oneswitch.org.uk

Kinesis sell a pedal (actually a group of three) that might be worth a look.

Change in  itself can help, I'm a firm believer in having more than ergo keyboard (I also swap to tkl boards for a while).

I think your ideal solution is likely to be a group of different stuff.  I know voice recognition is rubbish for coding, but you could try it for non coding tasks.  Use macros to cut down on typing. Write code to help you write code. Plus what ever you manage to come up with in terms a board.
I'd say start with with the macros now, so you have them in place when you're learning a new input method.

Lots of us care, perhaps we just don't know how to help.

[berserkfan]

I strongly support using the pedal option.

Hand-combos (chording) can be very hard on the hands if you're already suffering from pain. Better to use pedals as the feet often don't get enough exercise.