60% boards - what's the attraction?

[dustinhxc]

I just LOVE the look of them! Im really debating getting one!!

[nullstring]

Personally, I am a programmer and I do not use arrow keys and home/page up/F1-12/etc very often. So the lack of some keys is not a problem to me. The reason why I love 60% board is: a. perfect symmetry, and b. TKL boards have a huge part of the case exposed and I prefer 60% style, where keycaps take almost all of the surface.

Could you elaborate a bit more?
I'm a developer and I use home/end/page up/page down, a ton. I don't believe I could operate without them.
When I buy a laptop, I need to make sure that these keys are positioned efficiently or the computer will be practically unusable for me.
I also use arrow keys quite alot.

I'm also a developer and I barely use home/end/page up/page down. But I can see where you would use the arrow keys a lot unless your using Vim.

I don't understand  

[nickr]

Personally, I am a programmer and I do not use ...

I'm a developer and I use...

I'm also a developer and I barely use...

Many of us on the forum are engineers and developers.  You'd be hard pressed to find a more finicky group of people to deal with when it comes to anything computer/technology related.  I'm sure if you forced yourself a little, you'd all do just fine.

The first manufacturer that provides out-of-the-box fully programmable layers and key combos will be the real hero.  Until then, every product is going to fall short.  When Matias said that his 60% is better than Poker/Pure, I hope he meant something along the lines of this or else it'll just be nitpicked to death by a bunch of overzealous jabronis

[Matias]

Many of us on the forum are engineers and developers.  You'd be hard pressed to find a more finicky group of people to deal with when it comes to anything computer/technology related.

You just described the best kind of customer to have.

The first manufacturer that provides out-of-the-box fully programmable layers and key combos will be the real hero.  Until then, every product is going to fall short.  When Matias said that his 60% is better than Poker/Pure, I hope he meant something along the lines of this or else it'll just be nitpicked to death by a bunch of overzealous jabronis

If we assigned every key in the Fn layer a code (F16, F17, etc.) that could be intercepted by macro software or AutoHotkey, would that do the trick?

This approach lets you programme even more macros via modifier key combos -- eg: F16, Shift-F16, Ctrl-F16, Shift-Ctrl-F16, etc., would give you a tonne of programmability potential.

[hasu]

Form factor: 66% and 75% is not 60%. FC660, Choc mini or Laptop pro never been options for 60% lover.
TKL users are sure they never or very rarely use tenkey; meanwhile,
60% users are sure they never or very rarely use tenkey, F-keys and navigation cluster.
They are happy without those keys, if their keyboard has unused excess keys it is totally dealbreaker.

Fancy things: USB ports, back light and such are evil.
Totally marketing sake! I don't wanna pay for them. Not absolutely dealbreak but still meh.
... IMO

Layout: Never one fits all. No one can design universal layout for everyone. Programmability is required.
1) Reprogrammable controller.
The keyboard will get to be fully programmable by user community endeavor if MCU datasheet and toolchain are publicly available. No need extra customer support cost for manufacturer!
Widely pervasive Atmel AVR or ARM Cortex is preferable? I think we'll happily pay the cost for that if it is like $5-10.

2) Or  manufacturer offers configuration tool.
Good tool will be a great marketing hype. Manufacturer should give expense real fucntion like this not fancy things.

3) Or we can remap all keys with tool like AHK if Fn key itself has keycode.
60% keyboard should have a (DIP SW) configuration which gives a keycode Fn key and offers plain layout without Fn layer. Users will be able to fully configure their own layout including Fn layer themselves with tools. This doesn't seems to cost manufacturer that much.

[CPTBadAss]

Okay, I think we've pretty much nailed down what everybody likes about 60%.

How about foldout legs?  Are they necessary?  Are they better left off?

I never use fold out legs on any of my keyboards. Most of the time, they make the board's angle too steep and it feels awkward to type on. Only time I used the feet was on the Microsoft Ergonomic 4000 where it had the reverse angle foot on it.

[Hyde]

I only have 2 requests:

Make a dip switch to switch caps lock to FN key so you have easy access to 2nd layer on left hand.

Another thing is that if possible. Make the screw location similar to Poker/Race so all the people who already own custom aluminum case can use it too.

Otherwise maybe we should have another Toronto keyboard party when this gets released LOL.

[rowdy]

Okay, I think we've pretty much nailed down what everybody likes about 60%.

How about foldout legs?  Are they necessary?  Are they better left off?

http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=37219.0

[spiceBar]

The AltGr option comes default if you select the appropriated option at the Control Panel (Windows 7 64 bits Ultimate):

Control Panel>Region and Language>Keyboards and Language>Change Keyboards>General>English (United States) - United States-International



I use it with my regular thinkpad keyboard and its Alt right key turns into AltGr. So it is not a hardware but a software option. And I have used it since Windows XP so this option should be there for ages.

I am considering a Leopold 660. I do not like its lack of symmetry but I think is a no so bad compromise to get a still small keyboard footprint with arrows, delete and AltGr always available. I hope this increases my productivity. It is incredible how these small details may impact the work flow while repeating the finger moves so many times per day. I am and industrial engineer and of course I was trained to avoid repetitive stresses when designing work stations, but I really understood it when the tension in my right wrist began to producing nerves compression.

Beware that the FC660C is much heavier than the Poker. This will make a significant difference in your bag.

There is no AltGr at all on the Poker, so I don't even understand how you can use it at all to type European languages, unless you are on a Mac. Or maybe you are using the US international mode and compose accentuated characters with the single or back quote maybe?

One mod I have considered on my Poker was to physically exchange the Fn and CapsLock keys (by soldering wires) and then in software on the PC itself assign CapsLock to AltGr.

I think you didn't get it. He is using a Poker X and there is no right Alt on this keyboard. Instead of the right Alt, there is the Fn key. The right Alt has not been remapped somewhere else, so basically there is NO right Alt and so I was wondering how he typed some characters needed for european languages.

On the Mac, it's not a problem, because the right and left Alt keys do the same thing. So you can type the Euro symbol with the left Alt and the "E" key.

On Linux and Windows, the left Alt is a shortcut to open the menus, so if you have no right Alt you need some other way to type accentuated characters. There is a language mode (I thought it was called US international, but maybe not) that allows you to type them by prefixing them with the quote or the backquote. For example in this mode the quote followed by the E key gets you "é". To get a single quote, you need to press the quote then space. This mode allows you to type pretty much anything in many languages with a standard QWERTY keyboard.

The problem with this mode is that it turns a bunch of common symbols into dead keys. It uses the quote, the backquote, the double quote, the caret ("^") and the tilde ("~") and maybe some others. To type all these simple symbols, you must not forget to press space after them.

So I was wondering which option he had chosen.

[Matias]

I think you didn't get it. He is using a Poker X and there is no right Alt on this keyboard. Instead of the right Alt, there is the Fn key. The right Alt has not been remapped somewhere else, so basically there is NO right Alt and so I was wondering how he typed some characters needed for european languages.

Ctrl+Alt can also be used in place of AltGr.

[spiceBar]

Personally, I am a programmer and I do not use arrow keys and home/page up/F1-12/etc very often. So the lack of some keys is not a problem to me. The reason why I love 60% board is: a. perfect symmetry, and b. TKL boards have a huge part of the case exposed and I prefer 60% style, where keycaps take almost all of the surface.

Could you elaborate a bit more?
I'm a developer and I use home/end/page up/page down, a ton. I don't believe I could operate without them.
When I buy a laptop, I need to make sure that these keys are positioned efficiently or the computer will be practically unusable for me.
I also use arrow keys quite alot.

I'm also a developer and I barely use home/end/page up/page down. But I can see where you would use the arrow keys a lot unless your using Vim.

There are only 12 programmers in the world that never use the arrow keys because they are only using VIM and will never use anything else, but you hear about them all the time in every thread where the words "arrow keys" pop up.

The rest of the programmers of the world use many different IDEs and use the arrow keys all the time. It's just that they don't boast about it.

That being said, I'm working on a layout that eliminates the arrow keys, so I hope the 12 VIM users mentioned above will take this with humor.

[Matias]

Otherwise maybe we should have another Toronto keyboard party when this gets released LOL.

Perhaps not a bad idea. 

[spiceBar]

I think you didn't get it. He is using a Poker X and there is no right Alt on this keyboard. Instead of the right Alt, there is the Fn key. The right Alt has not been remapped somewhere else, so basically there is NO right Alt and so I was wondering how he typed some characters needed for european languages.

Ctrl+Alt can also be used in place of AltGr.

Under Windows I guess? Under Linux and Mac I have a bunch of shortcuts in the Ctrl-Alt layer, that would be a problem for me.

Anyway, in your 60% layout, please don't remove the right Alt key!

[Matias]

I think you didn't get it. He is using a Poker X and there is no right Alt on this keyboard. Instead of the right Alt, there is the Fn key. The right Alt has not been remapped somewhere else, so basically there is NO right Alt and so I was wondering how he typed some characters needed for european languages.

Ctrl+Alt can also be used in place of AltGr.

Under Windows I guess? Under Linux and Mac I have a bunch of shortcuts in the Ctrl-Alt layer, that would be a problem for me.

Yes, if you're running Windows virtualized on a Mac, keyboard shortcut conflicts are difficult to avoid (unfortunately).

Anyway, in your 60% layout, please don't remove the right Alt key!

Already there. 

[rowdy]

Personally, I am a programmer and I do not use arrow keys and home/page up/F1-12/etc very often. So the lack of some keys is not a problem to me. The reason why I love 60% board is: a. perfect symmetry, and b. TKL boards have a huge part of the case exposed and I prefer 60% style, where keycaps take almost all of the surface.

Could you elaborate a bit more?
I'm a developer and I use home/end/page up/page down, a ton. I don't believe I could operate without them.
When I buy a laptop, I need to make sure that these keys are positioned efficiently or the computer will be practically unusable for me.
I also use arrow keys quite alot.

I'm also a developer and I barely use home/end/page up/page down. But I can see where you would use the arrow keys a lot unless your using Vim.

There are only 12 programmers in the world that never use the arrow keys because they are only using VIM and will never use anything else, but you hear about them all the time in every thread where the words "arrow keys" pop up.

The rest of the programmers of the world use many different IDEs and use the arrow keys all the time. It's just that they don't boast about it.

That being said, I'm working on a layout that eliminates the arrow keys, so I hope the 12 VIM users mentioned above will take this with humor.

I use elvis (another vi clone) and I don't think I've ever used the arrow keys in it.  hjkl ftw!

[Belfong]

I don't use those foldout legs but it's nice to know its there. Having said that, is it a cost statement or are you planning a compartment for cable storage or cable management? I'd sacrifice foldout legs for storage and management.

But definitely huge big rubberized 'legs' please. The HHKB's rubber was so small and pathetic!

[spiceBar]

Personally, I am a programmer and I do not use arrow keys and home/page up/F1-12/etc very often. So the lack of some keys is not a problem to me. The reason why I love 60% board is: a. perfect symmetry, and b. TKL boards have a huge part of the case exposed and I prefer 60% style, where keycaps take almost all of the surface.

Could you elaborate a bit more?
I'm a developer and I use home/end/page up/page down, a ton. I don't believe I could operate without them.
When I buy a laptop, I need to make sure that these keys are positioned efficiently or the computer will be practically unusable for me.
I also use arrow keys quite alot.

I'm also a developer and I barely use home/end/page up/page down. But I can see where you would use the arrow keys a lot unless your using Vim.

There are only 12 programmers in the world that never use the arrow keys because they are only using VIM and will never use anything else, but you hear about them all the time in every thread where the words "arrow keys" pop up.

The rest of the programmers of the world use many different IDEs and use the arrow keys all the time. It's just that they don't boast about it.

That being said, I'm working on a layout that eliminates the arrow keys, so I hope the 12 VIM users mentioned above will take this with humor.

I use elvis (another vi clone) and I don't think I've ever used the arrow keys in it.  hjkl ftw!

There must be something dirty about using the arrow keys, as those who don't use them love to brag about it so much, and those who use them just shut up.

[Matias]

I don't use those foldout legs but it's nice to know its there. Having said that, is it a cost statement or are you planning a compartment for cable storage or cable management? I'd sacrifice foldout legs for storage and management.

Not a cost issue, but a thickness issue.

If there are no fold-out legs, the keyboard can be made thinner.

Of course, it would still have rubber feet to keep it from sliding around on the desk.

[Britney Spears]

In my opinion the foldout legs can be left off. Judging from the amount of usage the average foldout legs see at the company I work at, the majority of people don't care about them anyway. But then again, I might be totally mistaken.

[Linkbane]

Just in my opinion, I always use foldout legs if available and prefer if the incline is very steep, but I know that's not too popular and can be rectified by putting something under it. But thinness really isn't that important to functionality, so I'd say unless you're going to add a cable compartment, just include them for the decent amount of users that would prefer it.

[tbc]

Personally, I am a programmer and I do not use ...

I'm a developer and I use...

I'm also a developer and I barely use...

Many of us on the forum are engineers and developers.  You'd be hard pressed to find a more finicky group of people to deal with when it comes to anything computer/technology related.  I'm sure if you forced yourself a little, you'd all do just fine.

The first manufacturer that provides out-of-the-box fully programmable layers and key combos will be the real hero.  Until then, every product is going to fall short.  When Matias said that his 60% is better than Poker/Pure, I hope he meant something along the lines of this or else it'll just be nitpicked to death by a bunch of overzealous jabronis

developers who use pagedn/up are developers who have to learn how to use the scrollwheel on their logitech mouse

[n0husty]

Personally, I am a programmer and I do not use ...

I'm a developer and I use...

I'm also a developer and I barely use...

Many of us on the forum are engineers and developers.  You'd be hard pressed to find a more finicky group of people to deal with when it comes to anything computer/technology related.  I'm sure if you forced yourself a little, you'd all do just fine.

The first manufacturer that provides out-of-the-box fully programmable layers and key combos will be the real hero.  Until then, every product is going to fall short.  When Matias said that his 60% is better than Poker/Pure, I hope he meant something along the lines of this or else it'll just be nitpicked to death by a bunch of overzealous jabronis

developers who use pagedn/up are developers who have to learn how to use the scrollwheel on their logitech mouse

But it is more efficient to just hit page up/down.

[Matias]

Wasn't planning to include a cable compartment.  That would make it too thick IMO.

Just thought of another issue...

Do you guys put your 60% overtop of your laptop keyboard?  If so, then the feet would have to be positioned so as not to press keys on the laptop keyboard.

[Air tree]

I have never thought of using it on top of my laptop keyboard. That would be horribly awkward for me at least.

[tbc]

....

But it is more efficient to just hit page up/down.

not with the logitech freespin or w/e branding they give it.  i scroll 900 lines per second and get within 15 lines of what i wanted (it's always visible in my screen).  MUCH MUCH more granularity than pageup/dn and home/end

just to note: i'm assuming you USE your mouse and not just have it on your desk for decoration.


how about we ditch the flipout feet and offer screw-in feet?  I REALLY appreciate a lower profile (much better for ergonomics)

is flipping feet in and out common?  I've never seen anyone do that before.

[n0husty]

Wasn't planning to include a cable compartment.  That would make it too thick IMO.

Just thought of another issue...

Do you guys put your 60% overtop of your laptop keyboard?  If so, then the feet would have to be positioned so as not to press keys on the laptop keyboard.

Due to the feet pressing the keys usually I just put the keyboard on my lap or desk infront of the laptop

[rowdy]

Personally, I am a programmer and I do not use ...

I'm a developer and I use...

I'm also a developer and I barely use...

Many of us on the forum are engineers and developers.  You'd be hard pressed to find a more finicky group of people to deal with when it comes to anything computer/technology related.  I'm sure if you forced yourself a little, you'd all do just fine.

The first manufacturer that provides out-of-the-box fully programmable layers and key combos will be the real hero.  Until then, every product is going to fall short.  When Matias said that his 60% is better than Poker/Pure, I hope he meant something along the lines of this or else it'll just be nitpicked to death by a bunch of overzealous jabronis

developers who use pagedn/up are developers who have to learn how to use the scrollwheel on their logitech mouse

But that would mean taking your hands off the keyboard and your eyes off the insertion point while you refocus in order to use the mouse.

[tuxsavvy]

Okay, I think we've pretty much nailed down what everybody likes about 60%.

How about foldout legs?  Are they necessary?  Are they better left off?

I don't use those foldout legs but it's nice to know its there. Having said that, is it a cost statement or are you planning a compartment for cable storage or cable management? I'd sacrifice foldout legs for storage and management.

But definitely huge big rubberized 'legs' please. The HHKB's rubber was so small and pathetic!

I somewhat agree partially on what Belfong said. Though cable storage/management is somewhat an optional item for me. With my HHKB JP I have a bag for specifically just that. 

Though rubberised legs is more or less very nice especially if it is on both the retractable legs as well as the bottom of the keyboard. My HHKB JP has a small rubber feet on the bottom and no rubber feet for the retractable legs. It is somewhat easy for me to bump my HHKB forward at times with my acrylic palm rest. So definitely I agree with having bigger rubber feets.

Actually there is a gaming keyboard (albeit full sized and not a compact form) which I believe the design was really well thought out. The only downsides are potentially maybe no cable management for the keyboard itself and maybe the software to reprogram keys might be windows/mac only based. Gamdias Hermes GBK2010. It has all the programmable keys one could ever want within a keyboard, it satisfies those who want either a more silent keyboard or those who really want a loud keyboard and most of all, rubbers on retractable feet.

I on the other hand actually use the retractable feet on my HHKB JP. I guess it must be an old habit of me to almost always make use of the retractable feet regardless of the keyboard.

[Belfong]

I don't put the keyboard on top of the laptop keyboards as it will be awkward. I put it in front of the laptop so I do require a short micro USB cable. The standard ones are just too clumsy when I have to coil and Velcro it.

Please do put the micro USB on the back side of the keyboard (like Poker and HHKB), with the cable jutting out, instead of underneath (like in WASD keyboards or Code keyboard) because putting it underneath is not as portable as it's very difficult to plug and unplug.

Hope I explained myself well.

[davkol]

Personally, I am a programmer and I do not use ...

I'm a developer and I use...

I'm also a developer and I barely use...

Many of us on the forum are engineers and developers.  You'd be hard pressed to find a more finicky group of people to deal with when it comes to anything computer/technology related.  I'm sure if you forced yourself a little, you'd all do just fine.

The first manufacturer that provides out-of-the-box fully programmable layers and key combos will be the real hero.  Until then, every product is going to fall short.  When Matias said that his 60% is better than Poker/Pure, I hope he meant something along the lines of this or else it'll just be nitpicked to death by a bunch of overzealous jabronis

developers who use pagedn/up are developers who have to learn how to use the scrollwheel on their logitech mouse

But that would mean taking your hands off the keyboard and your eyes off the insertion point while you refocus in order to use the mouse.

Page Up/Down is away from the home row anyway.

However, I love the nav cluster on choc mini and TM2030. I can press keys with my thumb while resting the hand on a mouse/trackball.

[davkol]

I use my choc mini on top of a thinkpad X200T, when working on the bus or in an armchair, it fits perfectly.

BTW one idea about the rubber feet and feet... BTC 8110 had awesome front feet.

[Oobly]

Personally, I am a programmer and I do not use ...

I'm a developer and I use...

I'm also a developer and I barely use...

Many of us on the forum are engineers and developers.  You'd be hard pressed to find a more finicky group of people to deal with when it comes to anything computer/technology related.  I'm sure if you forced yourself a little, you'd all do just fine.

The first manufacturer that provides out-of-the-box fully programmable layers and key combos will be the real hero.  Until then, every product is going to fall short.  When Matias said that his 60% is better than Poker/Pure, I hope he meant something along the lines of this or else it'll just be nitpicked to death by a bunch of overzealous jabronis

developers who use pagedn/up are developers who have to learn how to use the scrollwheel on their logitech mouse

But that would mean taking your hands off the keyboard and your eyes off the insertion point while you refocus in order to use the mouse.

Page Up/Down is away from the home row anyway.

However, I love the nav cluster on choc mini and TM2030. I can press keys with my thumb while resting the hand on a mouse/trackball.

If you're editing on a TKL or full size keyboard, your hands are on the arrow keys and "know" where Home, End, PgUp, PgDn and Delete are. PgUp and Dn are more efficient than mouse scroll, even with a free-moving scroll wheel (I used to use a Logitech G9). While coding / editing a document you get used to how many times you need to hit PgUp or Dn to get where you want.

On a 60%, if it has a fully programmable Fn Layer, you can get the same functionality by mapping the keys of the number row and first alpha row to edit functions and the right hand modifiers to arrows, but it's not quite the same since you have to deal with the stagger. Another way is to map the arrows to IJKL and the edit keys to WERSDF.

In either case my point is that having a user-programmable Fn layer allows you to customise how you use the board and is VERY important to someone like me and I suspect a lot of other coders / engineers.

Just having remappable keys at software level doesn't cut it IMHO. I want it stored in the firmware so I can plug it into any machine and type without having to install a bunch of stuff to get it working. That's part of the form factor, portability.

[rowdy]

Personally, I am a programmer and I do not use ...

I'm a developer and I use...

I'm also a developer and I barely use...

Many of us on the forum are engineers and developers.  You'd be hard pressed to find a more finicky group of people to deal with when it comes to anything computer/technology related.  I'm sure if you forced yourself a little, you'd all do just fine.

The first manufacturer that provides out-of-the-box fully programmable layers and key combos will be the real hero.  Until then, every product is going to fall short.  When Matias said that his 60% is better than Poker/Pure, I hope he meant something along the lines of this or else it'll just be nitpicked to death by a bunch of overzealous jabronis

developers who use pagedn/up are developers who have to learn how to use the scrollwheel on their logitech mouse

But that would mean taking your hands off the keyboard and your eyes off the insertion point while you refocus in order to use the mouse.

Page Up/Down is away from the home row anyway.

However, I love the nav cluster on choc mini and TM2030. I can press keys with my thumb while resting the hand on a mouse/trackball.

When I'm programming, which is when I do the Ctrl-up/down trick, my hands are generally not on the home keys anyway.

[tbc]

I want software to make changing bindings easier, but yes, definitely keep the memory on the keyboard itself

[Matias]

Perhaps the last question...

Which dedicated hotkey functions do you use?

For example, Calculator button, Back button for the browser, etc.  These would be in the Fn layer on the left side.

[Belfong]

In Windows, I use Calculator a lot so a good dedicated keys would be good. In Mac I use Alfred and Spotlight to launch them so a dedicated keys is moot.

Given a choice, I hope the keycaps of a 60% is minimalistic ie not filled with so many legends. Already the important ones like arrow keys and media keys are taking up space. I feel these stuff like calc and browser home/back and forward are unnecessary and create a very complex visual on the keyboards.

[terran5992]

Perhaps the last question...

Which dedicated hotkey functions do you use?

For example, Calculator button, Back button for the browser, etc.  These would be in the Fn layer on the left side.

Nope i dont use any hot keys

[Matias]

Given a choice, I hope the keycaps of a 60% is minimalistic ie not filled with so many legends. Already the important ones like arrow keys and media keys are taking up space. I feel these stuff like calc and browser home/back and forward are unnecessary and create a very complex visual on the keyboards.

Yes, the more esoteric functions in the Fn layer would NOT be printed on the keys.  They'd be listed in the manual.

I was planning to put Calculator on Fn-C.

[Belfong]

Are you planning to put arrow keys as a Fn layer on WASD (which makes a lot of sense btw)? Then Q and E can be back and forward for browser which is used in the arrow keys clusters in most ThinkPads. Some newer ThinkPads has page up and page down beside the Up arrow.

Perhaps R can be Reload.

[Matias]

Are you planning to put arrow keys as a Fn layer on WASD (which makes a lot of sense btw)? Then Q and E can be back and forward for browser which is used in the arrow keys clusters in most ThinkPads. Some newer ThinkPads has page up and page down beside the Up arrow.

Perhaps R can be Reload.

No, that would be too difficult for non-gamers.  The arrows will be on the right.

On the left, we'd have Fn layer keys for Back, Forward, Calculator, and Browser.  The rest of the keys on the left would be assigned F16-F24, which can be intercepted easily by AHK or macro software, for triggering text insertions or macros.

[akikun]

Perhaps the last question...

Which dedicated hotkey functions do you use?

For example, Calculator button, Back button for the browser, etc.  These would be in the Fn layer on the left side.

I don't like hotkey functions as dedicated keys (one of the reasons I opted for a WASD over Ducky), but I think it's fine if they're in the function layer. The intercepted F16-F24 idea sounds great.

[spiceBar]

Are you planning to put arrow keys as a Fn layer on WASD (which makes a lot of sense btw)? Then Q and E can be back and forward for browser which is used in the arrow keys clusters in most ThinkPads. Some newer ThinkPads has page up and page down beside the Up arrow.

Perhaps R can be Reload.

No, that would be too difficult for non-gamers.  The arrows will be on the right.

On the left, we'd have Fn layer keys for Back, Forward, Calculator, and Browser.  The rest of the keys on the left would be assigned F16-F24, which can be intercepted easily by AHK or macro software, for triggering text insertions or macros.

A standard keyboard has no Calc key. How many people complain about it? How many people would reject a keyboard on the basis that it has no Calc key?

The point here is that I think you should avoid to overload some keys like X, C and V.

If the user has to hold some sort of Fn key to get the arrows (which I suspect from what you say), it would be very comfortable to be able to use Ctrl-X/Ctrl-C/Ctrl-V even if the Fn key is still pressed. Because typically when you use Ctrl-C or Ctrl-X, you have been using the navigation keys immediately before (to select the text), and you are going to use them again immediately after (to paste the text somewhere else). So if you allow both navigation and use of the clipboard while the Fn key is pressed, you make the user's life easier and your Fn layer a little bit more transparent.

It may be far more friendly and useful to allow that than to give a "Calculator" key. You can be sure that much more people use Ctrl-C than a calculator key, so having Ctrl-C not interfering with the Fn layer would be a smart choice.

I would even go as far as to say that very common shortcuts on the left side like Ctrl-A (select all), Ctrl-Q (quit app), Ctrl-S (save), Ctrl-F (find), Ctrl-G (find next), Ctrl-Z (undo) should be Fn-layer friendly. If you keep your Fn layer from interfering with the user's muscle memory, it will be easier to accept.

Offering to remap all unused Fn layer keys to Fsomething would be very nice, but as an OPTION. I assume (hope) you are planning to offer a way to configure the keyboard in some way (DIP switches seem to be common and easily accepted), and this could be one of the options. Let the normal users be as unbothered as possible by the Fn layout, and the advanced users do the advanced stuff they want.

[Matias]

On the left, we'd have Fn layer keys for Back, Forward, Calculator, and Browser.  The rest of the keys on the left would be assigned F16-F24, which can be intercepted easily by AHK or macro software, for triggering text insertions or macros.

A standard keyboard has no Calc key. How many people complain about it? How many people would reject a keyboard on the basis that it has no Calc key?

The point here is that I think you should avoid to overload some keys like X, C and V.

If the user has to hold some sort of Fn key to get the arrows (which I suspect from what you say), it would be very comfortable to be able to use Ctrl-X/Ctrl-C/Ctrl-V even if the Fn key is still pressed. Because typically when you use Ctrl-C or Ctrl-X, you have been using the navigation keys immediately before (to select the text), and you are going to use them again immediately after (to paste the text somewhere else). So if you allow both navigation and use of the clipboard while the Fn key is pressed, you make the user's life easier and your Fn layer a little bit more transparent.

Thanks for pointing this out.

I'll make sure they don't interfere.

Offering to remap all unused Fn layer keys to Fsomething would be very nice, but as an OPTION. I assume (hope) you are planning to offer a way to configure the keyboard in some way (DIP switches seem to be common and easily accepted), and this could be one of the options. Let the normal users be as unbothered as possible by the Fn layout, and the advanced users do the advanced stuff they want.

Yes, it will be DIP switchable.

I'm also seriously considering releasing the mechanical specs for the PCB, so that Sprit and others can do their own versions with different ICs and cases if they like.  We'd make keycaps available in a few colours.

[spiceBar]

On the left, we'd have Fn layer keys for Back, Forward, Calculator, and Browser.  The rest of the keys on the left would be assigned F16-F24, which can be intercepted easily by AHK or macro software, for triggering text insertions or macros.

A standard keyboard has no Calc key. How many people complain about it? How many people would reject a keyboard on the basis that it has no Calc key?

The point here is that I think you should avoid to overload some keys like X, C and V.

If the user has to hold some sort of Fn key to get the arrows (which I suspect from what you say), it would be very comfortable to be able to use Ctrl-X/Ctrl-C/Ctrl-V even if the Fn key is still pressed. Because typically when you use Ctrl-C or Ctrl-X, you have been using the navigation keys immediately before (to select the text), and you are going to use them again immediately after (to paste the text somewhere else). So if you allow both navigation and use of the clipboard while the Fn key is pressed, you make the user's life easier and your Fn layer a little bit more transparent.

Thanks for pointing this out.

I'll make sure they don't interfere.

Offering to remap all unused Fn layer keys to Fsomething would be very nice, but as an OPTION. I assume (hope) you are planning to offer a way to configure the keyboard in some way (DIP switches seem to be common and easily accepted), and this could be one of the options. Let the normal users be as unbothered as possible by the Fn layout, and the advanced users do the advanced stuff they want.

Yes, it will be DIP switchable.

I'm also seriously considering releasing the mechanical specs for the PCB, so that Sprit and others can do their own versions with different ICs and cases if they like.  We'd make keycaps available in a few colours.

Wow! You are going to get a lot of love for this! You are not only listening to what we say, but you open the door to customization!? Hot stuff.

[Belfong]

Yeah man! Customization! From the vendor. This is really cool!

[Matias]

Offering to remap all unused Fn layer keys to Fsomething would be very nice, but as an OPTION. I assume (hope) you are planning to offer a way to configure the keyboard in some way (DIP switches seem to be common and easily accepted), and this could be one of the options. Let the normal users be as unbothered as possible by the Fn layout, and the advanced users do the advanced stuff they want.

Yes, it will be DIP switchable.

I'm also seriously considering releasing the mechanical specs for the PCB, so that Sprit and others can do their own versions with different ICs and cases if they like.  We'd make keycaps available in a few colours.

Wow! You are going to get a lot of love for this! You are not only listening to what we say, but you open the door to customization!? Hot stuff.

Well, I don't want to compete with the community here.  I want to help support it, and perhaps introduce some new designs which had not been considered before.  I think what we have is clearly better than the Poker, HHKB, and FC660. 

[tuxsavvy]

Offering to remap all unused Fn layer keys to Fsomething would be very nice, but as an OPTION. I assume (hope) you are planning to offer a way to configure the keyboard in some way (DIP switches seem to be common and easily accepted), and this could be one of the options. Let the normal users be as unbothered as possible by the Fn layout, and the advanced users do the advanced stuff they want.

Yes, it will be DIP switchable.

I'm also seriously considering releasing the mechanical specs for the PCB, so that Sprit and others can do their own versions with different ICs and cases if they like.  We'd make keycaps available in a few colours.

Wow! You are going to get a lot of love for this! You are not only listening to what we say, but you open the door to customization!? Hot stuff.

Well, I don't want to compete with the community here.  I want to help support it, and perhaps introduce some new designs which had not been considered before.  I think what we have is clearly better than the Poker, HHKB, and FC660. 

I guess this space will get more interesting once you post up some sketches or something hehe. After playing around with the minds of 60% of enthusiasts. 

[osi]

Will be keeping an eye on how this develops!

[vun]

Okay, I think we've pretty much nailed down what everybody likes about 60%.

How about foldout legs?  Are they necessary?  Are they better left off?

I never use fold out legs on any of my keyboards. Most of the time, they make the board's angle too steep and it feels awkward to type on. Only time I used the feet was on the Microsoft Ergonomic 4000 where it had the reverse angle foot on it.

Put legs on the front of the keyboard, the reverse angle of the ergo4k was awesome.

[jdcarpe]

BTW, I don't see the FILCO MiniLa getting much love here, despite being available wireless as well.  Any particular reason?

The Minila has imo the same issue as the Pure Pro, all 75% boards, the FC660M and others: the lack of replacement keycaps. For a lot of us this hobby is a lot about modding and when you have a hard time making it look the way you want it to look that is a turnoff. This is probably also the reason why the Poker is so popular, it is very customizable and uses standard keycap sizes.

Also, this has been the obstacle for all Alps-based projects to date, unfortunately.