Prototyping New Keyboard Designs (Using Plate Mounting and Direct Wiring)

[Matt3o]

Do you know what the dimensions are for the stabilizers on the 5-unit spacebar?

trying to get specs for the 5units...

[nebo]

Oh God I need this, but with a num row.

Why do you need a num row when you have a num pad?

1) I have other ideas for those keys.
2) Starcraft would be hell.
3) !@#$%^&*()

Would you want a 2-unit backspace, or split backspace? Number row extend over the number pad?

Standard 2U backspace, and number row extended. More macro keys!

[jdcarpe]

Standard 2U backspace, and number row extended. More macro keys!

This one's for you.

[TotalChaos]

@Keyboard Science Dept. of Mechanical Engineering

I know exactly how I want all of my keys, except my thumbshift keys.  So its 100% ok to make a big solid steel plate for all of my keys except my thumbshift keys.

Does anyone know a way so that I could have my thumbshift keys be separate from the rest of the keyboard and mounted on something that can be moved around and rotated to any angle?

Could the thumbshift keys be mounted on a tiny steel plate?  Wood block?  Balsa wood?  Cork?  Playdoh?  Silly Putty?  Clay?  Anything?

And can the thumbshift keys be mounted on something that has no overhang?

If the mounting plate thingy sticks out then it forces the key to be further away from the other keys, thus limiting the number of positions I can test.

I need some sort of way of moving my thumbshift keys into a position then keeping them in that position while I type all day long to test it.  Then move them into another position and repeat.  Is that possible?


The alternative is to make 12 different steel plates x2 (which is going to cost me thousands of $$$ because I have to hire someone to do the wiring I think.) And then just hope that one of those 12 is perfect or "close enuff".

What about adjusting the height of the thumbshift keys?  If they are mounted on a different thing then that thing will likely end up being a different height than the rest of the keyboard because I am assuming that "bending a steel plate" is not an exact science?

How hard is it to do the wiring?  Is it simple enuff that my nurse could do it for me?

[Matt3o]

Do you know what the dimensions are for the stabilizers on the 5-unit spacebar?

The 5 unit spacebar measures 3.715" long and has 3 fixed mount positions measuring 1.500" from each other.

[TheSoulhunter]

Crossposting: http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=40812.msg812308#msg812308

I'm working on a "ergonomic" gaming keypad atm, mainly for FPS (as RTS/MMO need sooo many buttons the "ergo" part becomes impossible). The idea is to place all the commonly used buttons so that they are comfortably to reach without stretching the fingers too far, forcing em into a awkward angle, or moving the hand around too much. Below is my first attempt for the layout, feel free to try it (print out) and see how good you can reach the center of the buttons (Note: For now the buttons are simply straight, but I will probably tilt/turn the keys later to match the angle of the fingers) and make suggestions for improvement etc...

Show Image

Someone willing to do a plate for this? ^^;

Beyond my plate skillz. :P

Thought so...
Probably gonna use Epoxy for the prototype then.

[dorkvader]

bytheway, I'm almost done with my 45%+TK layout. It's a little wider to accommodate dvorak, but I really like the no number row +tenkey The tenkey has proper arrowkeys, all the umbers and (with an F key) you get all the functionkeys, too. It's perfect.

I'll post a picture of it now. I'll see about building qcad from source when I get home (unfortunately it requires QT so I'll have to figure something out)

[jdcarpe]

I'm after this

Show Image

and this

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Okay, here they are. I'm not sure about the pseudo-ISO version. I didn't know the stem positions of that RETURN keycap. Do you have one like that? Does it use standard switch stem positions? That's what I used.

[Matt3o]

thank you man! really appreciated! I'm gonna laser cut those right away

I don't have the specs for the ISO return, gonna ask SP for that

[TheSoulhunter]

Crossposting: http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=40812.msg812308#msg812308

I'm working on a "ergonomic" gaming keypad atm, mainly for FPS (as RTS/MMO need sooo many buttons the "ergo" part becomes impossible). The idea is to place all the commonly used buttons so that they are comfortably to reach without stretching the fingers too far, forcing em into a awkward angle, or moving the hand around too much. Below is my first attempt for the layout, feel free to try it (print out) and see how good you can reach the center of the buttons (Note: For now the buttons are simply straight, but I will probably tilt/turn the keys later to match the angle of the fingers) and make suggestions for improvement etc...

Show Image

Someone willing to do a plate for this? ^^;

Beyond my plate skillz. :P

Thought so...
Probably gonna use Epoxy for the prototype then.

Ok, did it on my own...  :cool:

I present you the SH-GamePad-v2:

[jdcarpe]

Crossposting: http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=40812.msg812308#msg812308

I'm working on a "ergonomic" gaming keypad atm, mainly for FPS (as RTS/MMO need sooo many buttons the "ergo" part becomes impossible). The idea is to place all the commonly used buttons so that they are comfortably to reach without stretching the fingers too far, forcing em into a awkward angle, or moving the hand around too much. Below is my first attempt for the layout, feel free to try it (print out) and see how good you can reach the center of the buttons (Note: For now the buttons are simply straight, but I will probably tilt/turn the keys later to match the angle of the fingers) and make suggestions for improvement etc...

Show Image

Someone willing to do a plate for this? ^^;

Beyond my plate skillz. :P

Thought so...
Probably gonna use Epoxy for the prototype then.

Ok, did it on my own...  :cool:

I present you the SH-GamePad-v2:

(Attachment Link)

Very nice! Great job! :)

[sordna]

thank you man! really appreciated! I'm gonna laser cut those right away

Matt3o, please post photos when you have your plates made! I really like your ANSI layout.

[CaptainAsshat]

I'm working on a plate generation tool in python and I getting to the point where I would like to try having an aluminum plate made.  So my question is where are you guys getting these cut? 

I've used front panel express in my lab work for well... front panels, and I priced it out for a TKL sized plate and realized that they were going to want ~97 cents per cut, which is out of my range. 

I've got some quotes out there for some laser cutting shops that I'm waiting to hear back on but I thought I'd see if anyone here had any suggestions.

[bearcat]

I recommend working with a cheaper material first and going to aluminum once you've got the kinks ironed out.

 Ponoko.com is probably the cheapest for prototyping as they don't charge a set up fee for one offs. 

After that, I've heard good things about bigbluesaw.com, but haven't yet worked with them.

[CaptainAsshat]

Thanks

I recommend working with a cheaper material first and going to aluminum once you've got the kinks ironed out.

 Ponoko.com is probably the cheapest for prototyping as they don't charge a set up fee for one offs. 

After that, I've heard good things about bigbluesaw.com, but haven't yet worked with them.

Thanks.  I actually sent off a numpad sized test with delrin to ponoko last week just to how the slots hold.  I'll check out bigbluesaw then.  Thanks for the help!

[metalliqaz]

I've got some quotes out there for some laser cutting shops that I'm waiting to hear back on but I thought I'd see if anyone here had any suggestions.

I tried for weeks to get a local place to even respond for my RFQs.  I had to call up and bug them to respond to me, and then they just quoted me their minimum order price, which was usually $300 to $600.  This is how you lose business.

[CaptainAsshat]

I've got some quotes out there for some laser cutting shops that I'm waiting to hear back on but I thought I'd see if anyone here had any suggestions.

I tried for weeks to get a local place to even respond for my RFQs.  I had to call up and bug them to respond to me, and then they just quoted me their minimum order price, which was usually $300 to $600.  This is how you lose business.

I just put a rfq out at a local shop that when I called the guy said they do small orders, but he also said they charge $65/hr, so maybe that will pan out.
It seems that all the "online" automatic quote type shops (frontpanelexpress, emachineshops, bigbluesaw) are quoting my plate around 100.

jdcarpe:  In regards to beast's plate fab thread I must have missed your plate design that was similar to what I was envisioning.  I think the only difference I was planning on was instead of the double wide zero key in the numpad splitting that into two separate keys to create an arrow block/numpad hybrid at the bottom of the board.

 sa_numpad_imperial.dxf (71.39 kB - downloaded 180 times.)

I created a python script to automatically generate a parametric plate layout from a configuration file that I would be happy to share if anyone is interested.  I'm not sure if something like this already exists though.  The only remaining thing is I need a way to add in rotated keys like in the numpad, which shouldn't be a problem.

[TheQsanity]

SO Many OPTIONS!!! This is OVERWHELMING!!!

[Skull_Angel]

I'd ask for a mock up of my ideal 75% layout, but that's already happened in the GH60++ thread, haha.

Keep up the good work.

[TheSoulhunter]

So, I asked a local shop which does lasercutting how much a SS plate of my layout would cost... 75 Euros!

[DamienG]

Here is a compact TKL I've been thinking about based on Ron/Matt's template.



The layout is almost perfect for me although I'm split between keeping insert/delete in the regular vertical arrangement and putting DEL next to backspace.  It avoids a short right-shift but does require some 1x1 on the bottom row for the right modifiers. 

Font is changed to Segoe Light, no idea if/how I'd get the caps made   The volume up/down icons need to change.

[)amien

[metalliqaz]

Very cool I like that extra column.

[Matt3o]

So, I asked a local shop which does lasercutting how much a SS plate of my layout would cost... 75 Euros!

did the same with mine and they quoted €22! it's a very basic SS without any treatment though.

[TheSoulhunter]

So, I asked a local shop which does lasercutting how much a SS plate of my layout would cost... 75 Euros!

did the same with mine and they quoted €22! it's a very basic SS without any treatment though.

Can you proxy me 2 of my plates? ^^;

[Matt3o]

sure, no problem. I've never worked with them though. I'd like to see a sample first.

[TheSoulhunter]

sure, no problem. I've never worked with them though. I'd like to see a sample first.

Awesome! Do you know what they need? Is a PNG with measurements enough?

[Matt3o]

sure, no problem. I've never worked with them though. I'd like to see a sample first.

Awesome! Do you know what they need? Is a PNG with measurements enough?

DWG or DXF

[scumyc]

Hey guys!  Feels like I've been dreaming of this layout forever but haven't seen it before.  I just messed with DamienG's picture in ms paint a little:


hopefully pic works, noob poster here

I love small for factor keyboards, so I bought a pure but the layout didn't turn out to be perfect for me.
for coding:
I can't seem to adjust to a short right shift, I'm constantly pinkying the split.
I missed arrow keys way more that I anticipated
I also missed the function row a lot for the compile/run type shortcuts in the IDE's i use
for gaming:
I really like alt being farther into the keyboard so I can easily thumb it while using esdf as arrow keys (unfortunatelty I had to game on a dell xps 1210 for 6 years and I got really used to it)

I got really excited seeing this thread because it sounds like I might finally have a chance at this layout with some work.  I'm interested to hear what others think of the layout.  I wanted to make sure one could use high quality cap sets on it, and I think besides a few top and bottom row 1x keys which can easily be blanks, this layout can use standard caps.

I have no CAD skills or machine shop connections but I'm decent with a soldering iron and I'm more than happy to pay for help making this thing a reality if there are any interested parties.

[DamienG]

Fixed it for you.

[)amien

[scumyc]

Thanks for the assist, much obliged sir!

apologies if this is too off topic:
so a sweet metal cased keyboard with the custom layout i posted would be freaking awesome
my thought was that maybe this custom hard wired plate idea could be extended into a full custom keyboard
I did a quick search and didn't really see anything on making a case out of a sheet of stainless steel but that's what I'm thinking about.

here's a quick ms paint concept scrawling:

green dots are through holes, orange dots are tapped for screwing into
imagine bending flaps out of the page on red lines and into the page on blue lines
switch plate goes inside the case plate
screw in L brackets on the outside of the corners for some structural integrity
make flaps on the case plate longer than the ones on the switch plate to create a nice lip

I feel like if it is possible to bend decently thick gauge stainless steel this could make a real solid feeling case.  Anyone have any thoughts? see any problems?

[TheSoulhunter]

sure, no problem. I've never worked with them though. I'd like to see a sample first.

Awesome! Do you know what they need? Is a PNG with measurements enough?

DWG or DXF

Ok, have to check free programs to create such files, thanks!

[DamienG]

Yeah I haven't found anything that can edit those DWG's that's < $50

[)amien

[jdcarpe]

I'm using QCAD (trial version). The paid version is less than $44, or you can build from source for free.

[TheSoulhunter]

Found this here: http://www.3ds.com/products/draftsight/overview/

[TheSoulhunter]

Ok, found the time to take measurements...



But this CAD tool is a PITA for me, cant get the hang of it!


@Matt3o
Any chance they will also accept a drawing with measurements for a small bonus?

[Matt3o]

if you are extremely careful you can also work with inkscape and export to DXF. It worked for me

[samwisekoi]

Yeah I haven't found anything that can edit those DWG's that's < $50

[)amien

Free - Free - Free
DraftSight by  Dassault Systèmes

Windows-only, but it runs fine in a 2GB single-core VB VM on my i7 Linux box.  Registration-ware.  Native DWG files.

 - Ron | samwisekoi

[TheSoulhunter]

Yeah I haven't found anything that can edit those DWG's that's < $50

[)amien

Free - Free - Free
DraftSight by  Dassault Systèmes

Windows-only, but it runs fine in a 2GB single-core VB VM on my i7 Linux box.  Registration-ware.  Native DWG files.

 - Ron | samwisekoi

Show Image

Check link 3 posts up ;)

[Matt3o]

Free - Free - Free
DraftSight by  Dassault Systèmes

Windows-only, but it runs fine in a 2GB single-core VB VM on my i7 Linux box.  Registration-ware.  Native DWG files.

windows only?! Are you kidding me? http://www.3ds.com/products/draftsight/download-draftsight/

[Pyrolistical]

I used lowploy's method for my prototype

http://pyrolistical.github.io/blog/2012/08/11/full-custom-keypoard/

I got the entire thing cnc but the concept is the same. I also used the butterfly switch holes but more simple and easier to cnc

My switches were very sturdy. I was very impressed how there was zero wobble

[jdcarpe]

I used lowploy's method for my prototype

http://pyrolistical.github.io/blog/2012/08/11/full-custom-keypoard/

I got the entire thing cnc but the concept is the same. I also used the butterfly switch holes but more simple and easier to cnc

My switches were very sturdy. I was very impressed how there was zero wobble

Awesome! Really nice work. Love to see custom designs come to life.

[rurushu]

Here is a compact TKL I've been thinking about based on Ron/Matt's template.

(Attachment Link)

The layout is almost perfect for me although I'm split between keeping insert/delete in the regular vertical arrangement and putting DEL next to backspace.  It avoids a short right-shift but does require some 1x1 on the bottom row for the right modifiers. 

Font is changed to Segoe Light, no idea if/how I'd get the caps made   The volume up/down icons need to change.

[)amien

oh... i like this layout!!!

[TD22057]

jdcarpe,
Can you share some of your CAD skills?  I'm using your dwg files as a starting point and draftsight64 (free) to try and design a split board for my custom keyboard (similar to the cherry mx 5000 layout).  I'm curious how you space all of the mount points so precisely - specifically the spacing in between the holes.  For example, in TotalChaos-Fn.dwg, the main keys have one spacing and the larger keys (enter, caps lock, tab, shift, etc) have different spacings between the keys.  Is there a spec somewhere that details these?  And what's the best way to transfer that spec into a CAD program?

Any help would be greatly appreciated...

[TD22057]

Here's what I'm going to build.  3 piece split ergonomic keyboard modeled on the Cherry MX 5000 (left hand, right hand, numeric keypad).  I figure I can modify the ErgoDox hardware and firmware to support this kind of 3 piece arrangement.  I've made the left side and right side keys outside main field symmetric so there will be arrow keys on both sides.  Above the arrow keys, the right side will have the standard keys (Home/End, Insert/Delete, Pg Dn/Pg Up) and the left side will be programmable (mute, play/pause, other media keys).   I still need to figure out exactly how to correctly space the larger keys in the space bar row but this is the general layout I'm going for. 

Thanks to jdcarpe for the original DWG files that I modified...

[TD22057]

In case anyone cares, I was able to answer most of my own questions today.  Found a reference that states the standard 1x1 keycap uses 3/4" x 3/4" of space.  wasdkeyboards.com has a reference that shows the various sizes of all of the keys.  I used the files from jdcarpe as a starting point and resized the key switch holes them to match the specs from Cherry (1x1 holes were slightly undersized).  I drew 1x1, 1x1.25, etc squares for the various keys and then centered the switch hole in the middle of the squares.  I'm not completely sure about the key sizes >= 1x2 as the hole design for the stabilizers seems a bit different than the Cherry web site and the files from jdcarpe use two different styles for those keys.

If anyone is interested, I have a .dwg file with the keycap rectangles and centered switch holes which makes it pretty easy to design a full layout.  The keycap squares make it easy to line everything up then I go back and erase the outlines to leave just the holes.  I used free DraftSight64 CAD software to do everything.  I haven't actually build a keyboard from any of these files so there still could be mistakes...

In any case, here is my updated three piece split plate design showing the keycaps.

[jdcarpe]

I'm glad you were able to figure everything out. My 1x1 holes may be slightly undersized, as when I was starting to learn how to draw these plates, I used the hole drawings from the original Phantom plate drawings.

I use the same method you use to get the spacing correct. I draw boxes of the correct size for the keycap, based on 1-unit being 0.75" then center the hole in the box. I made some prototypes with the "new" 2-unit stabilizer holes, but the little cutouts are too thin, and bend easily. The holes where your split spacebar is are my final, go-to stabilizer hole. It's based on the Phantom design, with the top slightly modified so you can open the switch without desoldering.

Great job on your plates!

[Glod]

hmmmm

what if we/i tried this with a matrix layout,

no two hands like the ergodox but like a minimized mechanical typematrix board http://www.typematrix.com/

ergonomic with the travel capabilities and 60% size of the GH60, GHERGO60.......

it would need some space between the hands though so it would be longer than the GH60 for sure but the same height

*brain starts going crazy, ahhhhhhhhhhhh*

[SubGothius]

hmmmm

what if we/i tried this with a matrix layout,

no two hands like the ergodox but like a minimized mechanical typematrix board http://www.typematrix.com/

ergonomic with the travel capabilities and 60% size of the GH60, GHERGO60.......

it would need some space between the hands though so it would be longer than the GH60 for sure but the same height

*brain starts going crazy, ahhhhhhhhhhhh*

I had a similar idea for a matrix layout upon seeing this thread. I'd been thinking of getting one or two of those Tipro 128-key POS boards, but it'd be a PITA to unsolder all those switches just to swap in tactile MX clears or browns, as I really do not care for the linear blacks they come with, and the used units available on US eBay are usually pretty grungy looking anyway.

Here's a 112-key version of the sort of layout I was thinking of, designed to minimize pinky stress and maximize the spread between hands in normal typing use, without deviating too radically from a familiar layout for alphanumeric and common punctuation key positions:

[Glod]

I'd hit that

[metalliqaz]

I had a similar idea for a matrix layout upon seeing this thread. I'd been thinking of getting one or two of those Tipro 128-key POS boards, but it'd be a PITA to unsolder all those switches just to swap in tactile MX clears or browns, as I really do not care for the linear blacks they come with, and the used units available on US eBay are usually pretty grungy looking anyway.

Here's a 112-key version of the sort of layout I was thinking of, designed to minimize pinky stress and maximize the spread between hands in normal typing use, without deviating too radically from a familiar layout for alphanumeric and common punctuation key positions:
(Attachment Link)

Dude, congrats on making an amazing layout.  Better than the typematrix layout IMHO.