Kailh Box Brown Silent- rather disappointed

[jcoffin1981]

Overall I'm a huge fan of the Kailh switch lineup.  They are reasonable in cost, many have shorter travel distance and great tactility.  I've been looking for a new daily driver that would check off all of the boxes that I would desire in a board.  I've purchased about 6 or 7 different switches and have been trying them out in my hotswap board before I commit with hot lead.  Between de-soldering original switches, lubing new switches, and re-soldering;  although I didn't time it , I'm sure it was 7-8 hours total time.  The switches are mounted in a Leopold FC660M.  I did not lube the tactile nub on the switch housing.  The design is unique and when the stem makes contact with it, it actually slides away from it into the switch housing.  The nub rests against the metal leaf and this is what creates the tension for it.  It comes already lubed with a thick grease and I did not alter this.

I am kind of disappointed overall.  I like the shorter travel distance, the higher actuation point, and the sound profile, and the weight.  The upstroke as well as the down stroke is sileneced- and it's pretty darn quiet.  It's akin to the quietest rubber dome board I have ever used.  While it sounds a lot like a rubber dome board I used to own, it also feels like it (If I can find the model number I will post it).  The switches are silenced at the expense of tactility and the switches are really quite mushy.  They are really missing the sharp tactility that the original box browns have.  I also find that I am having a lot of typing errors because I am not getting the same feedback. I am going to force myself to use it for a while.  It may actually grow on me.

I had put about 10 switches in a hot swap board and used them for an evening and thought that I really liked them.  This goes to show how you truly need to use a switch on a full board in real-world conditions before coming to a conclusion about it.

I've attached a video so you can at least hear it. I would love to hear reviews and feedback from others who have used the switch.
EDIT- Unfortunately my internet is acting up and I cant post the video/sound, but I'm working on it.

[Leopard223]

The BOX silent brown sample I got was underwhelming IMO, very small bump, barely noticeable and it had a click as if it came completely unlubed, the BOX brown sample. 
I liked the TTC silent brown better.

[HungerMechanic]

I tried BOX Silent Brown, but it wasn't for me.

It has a short travel, which can be good, but I found that it also had a stiffer tactility at the top.

So you have to press harder than regular BOX Brown, but when you do, you come crashing towards the low-travel bottom.

I found this to be very unergonomic. Overall, to me, the switch felt like a cross between regular BOX Brown, and Zilent V2 62 G. It's clear that they were influenced by Zilent. But I think I might rather use Zilent than BOX Silent Brown, because it gives me a more positive feedback.

I am not sure if you have tried U4 Boba yet, but people tend to like that better. It is highly tactile, but a high-end switch. If I had access to U4 Boba, I probably would have a keyboard full of those [at ~55 G] instead of Zilent V2.

For options that are less tactile than U4/Zilent/BOX Silent Brown, people tend to overlook the Silent Forest stems, which are great in the right housing, such as MX Clear. If you like higher weights, you can run Silent Forest at 68 G inside the Boba housing, getting a stable and tactile switch with pre-travel and feedback.

I'll have to try TTC Silent Brown. It didn't have the best reviews, but I managed to make a good silent switch out of TTC Gold Brown V2.

[jcoffin1981]

To date, Box Brown is my favorite and I was hoping this would be similar.  You are right in that it is very stiff at the top of the keystroke.  I have not heard of U4 Boba, but I will look into it.

I am now experimenting with the Durock Light Tactiles.  I've only purchased 10 and I even have one in my keychain that I fumble with in my pocket.  It is a 4mm travel tactile switch, but it is very smooth with little wobble.  The tactile bump is a little longer, and the overall sound and feel of the switch is very pleasant

[zslane]

I have found the BOX silent browns plenty tactile. I've been typing on them for several months now on my Drop CTRL. Of course, my main is usually a Topre board, so by comparison these BOX silent browns feel sharper in terms of tactility. So I imagine the experience will be quite different depending on what you are used to.

[HungerMechanic]

I have not heard of U4 Boba, but I will look into it.

I am now experimenting with the Durock Light Tactiles.

U4 Boba is a recent product of the OUTEMU custom line. U4 is the stem [tactile like T1, but dampened], and Boba is the housing. Boba housings are very tight, with little wobble, and the tactile leafs are quieter. The tactile leaf is Herculean in strength, so it's also used for making Holy Panda derivatives. There's lots of stuff you can put in a Boba housing, but U4 is the #1 silent tactile right now.

Please let us know how the Durock Light Tactiles work out. I have Pewter, but I don't like the factory lube. I'm not sure what kind of lube is best for them, maybe a thin coat of GS1 all over or something. Tactile leaf seemed kind of weak or dead to me, even compared to MX Brown. I prefer the Pewter stem in whatever the Taro Ball housing is made from. Natural weight for the Durock Light Tactile seems to be around 57-60 G.

[jcoffin1981]

I have not heard of U4 Boba, but I will look into it.

I am now experimenting with the Durock Light Tactiles.

U4 Boba is a recent product of the OUTEMU custom line. U4 is the stem [tactile like T1, but dampened], and Boba is the housing. Boba housings are very tight, with little wobble, and the tactile leafs are quieter. The tactile leaf is Herculean in strength, so it's also used for making Holy Panda derivatives. There's lots of stuff you can put in a Boba housing, but U4 is the #1 silent tactile right now.

Please let us know how the Durock Light Tactiles work out. I have Pewter, but I don't like the factory lube. I'm not sure what kind of lube is best for them, maybe a thin coat of GS1 all over or something. Tactile leaf seemed kind of weak or dead to me, even compared to MX Brown. I prefer the Pewter stem in whatever the Taro Ball housing is made from. Natural weight for the Durock Light Tactile seems to be around 57-60 G.

Where is the best place to purchase them?  I don't really want to go overseas.

[jcoffin1981]

I have found the BOX silent browns plenty tactile. I've been typing on them for several months now on my Drop CTRL. Of course, my main is usually a Topre board, so by comparison these BOX silent browns feel sharper in terms of tactility. So I imagine the experience will be quite different depending on what you are used to.

It's not that it's not tactile enough, it's just very different.  Coming from a Box Brown, the bump is short and sharp.  The bump here longer and lacks that distinct almost click.  It is a light switch, but it is also stiff at the top. I really want to swap out the springs and try again, going 5-7 gf lighter.  That's a lot of work though.  This can be frustrating.

[hotaro]

Between de-soldering original switches, lubing new switches, and re-soldering;  although I didn't time it , I'm sure it was 7-8 hours total time.  The switches are mounted in a Leopold FC660M.

How was the desoldering experience with the Leopold? Did you run into any difficulties?

PS: First time posting so please let me know, or remove this if this isn't allowed since it may be off-topic.

[HungerMechanic]

Where is the best place to purchase them?  I don't really want to go overseas.

Are you in the USA? There are a number of retailers there. Although there's a 'Boba shortage' in several locations.

The best place to purchase them from is the distributor Gazzew on Reddit. Not sure if he has availability right now, but he sells them directly, and in pieces for modding.

It's not that it's not tactile enough, it's just very different.  Coming from a Box Brown, the bump is short and sharp.  The bump here longer and lacks that distinct almost click.  It is a light switch, but it is also stiff at the top. I really want to swap out the springs and try again, going 5-7 gf lighter.  That's a lot of work though.  This can be frustrating.

I struggled with this issue as well. The BOX Silent Browns have stiff resistance at the top but then just becomes mushy.

One solution is called "Cookies and Cream." You take the BOX Silent Brown stem and put it in a BOX Cream housing, using the BOX Cream spring as well.

The reason for doing this is that BOX Creams use a linear leaf instead of tactile. So the tactility is less. And the spring weight is close to MX Brown. So you can get a switch that is closer in some respects more like original BOX Brown.

I have tried this, and the combination works from an operating standpoint. I found that they were lighter or less tactile, less likely to harsh bottom-out, while still being quiet. I didn't build more, it's expensive and I have better silent switch options. But that's seriously something you might want to try if you are 'almost there' with BOX Silent Brown.

[HungerMechanic]

Here, this is your saviour:




Cookies n’ Cream

    NK Box Cream housing & spring :icecream:
    Kailh Silent Box Brown stem :chocolate_bar:
    More quiet, deeper sound - virtually no ping :sound:
    More moderate tactility, like reg. Box Brown :brown_heart:

Like a mild Silent Box Brown, but better.

https://www.keebtalk.com/t/funky-frankenswitches/8206/188

[zslane]

Well, at the end of the day I feel that all tactile switches pale in comparison to Topre anyway, so I understand the disappointment. I don't believe there is a switch out there that feels like (or feels better than) Topre, so I think everyone is wasting their time questing for one.

[Sup]

Well, at the end of the day I feel that all tactile switches pale in comparison to Topre anyway, so I understand the disappointment. I don't believe there is a switch out there that feels like (or feels better than) Topre, so I think everyone is wasting their time questing for one.

NOT FALSE

[Findecanor]

I think Topre, Zealios V2 and even tactile Alps suffer from the same flaw: the tactile point is too early and then it is fast to the bottom. Prolonged use of Topre hurt my fingers.

I am preferential to MX Clear but it is not very smooth. I've said it many times before: I wish a switch manufacturer would develop a combined rubber sleeve + spring switch - with both in parallel. Such a switch could be both highly tactile and very smooth.

I've yet to try a "MItsumi mod" - using a rubber sleeve from a Mitsumi "Hybrid" switch under the keycap of a linear MX-type switch. (my Mitsumi Amiga keyboards have coiled springs)

[Leopard223]

Here, this is your saviour:

Show Image

Cookies n’ Cream

    NK Box Cream housing & spring :icecream:
    Kailh Silent Box Brown stem :chocolate_bar:
    More quiet, deeper sound - virtually no ping :sound:
    More moderate tactility, like reg. Box Brown :brown_heart:

Like a mild Silent Box Brown, but better.

https://www.keebtalk.com/t/funky-frankenswitches/8206/188

Oh my  here's an idea that weirdly didn't cross my mind, combining Kailh BOX switches, I've got plenty of samples to try.

[jcoffin1981]

Between de-soldering original switches, lubing new switches, and re-soldering;  although I didn't time it , I'm sure it was 7-8 hours total time.  The switches are mounted in a Leopold FC660M.

How was the desoldering experience with the Leopold? Did you run into any difficulties?

PS: First time posting so please let me know, or remove this if this isn't allowed since it may be off-topic.

No, it went smooth as pie.  It's the lubing that is time consuming. If you are not de-soldering LEDs/RGBs then this goes pretty fast too.  Everything about Leopold is a pleasure to work with.  The one thing I dislike is the way the case comes together.  There is one screw that holds the bezel to the base, and the rest is secured by plastic tabs that go all the way around.
Every time I separate the pieces I'm afraid I'm going to snap something. I don't know why they can't just use screws like every other manufacturer.

[Riverman]

What did you use to desolder the switches?  I always have a hard time desoldering things with lead-free solder.

Realforce R2 keyboards are the same way with one screw and tabs all around.  I don't think the screw in those is there for anything but security purposes.  You definitely have to have a decent case opening tool for those things.

I replaced the switches in a Das Keyboard 4 a while back with silent box browns, and they were pretty decent.  They had a much more pronounced tactile bump at the top, but some of the stems were slightly crooked, and that bugged the heck out of me.  I was very impressed with how quiet they were, though.  They were right up there with the silent black switches in a Cherry G80-3494 I have, and about as quiet as a silenced Topre.

[jcoffin1981]

What did you use to desolder the switches?  I always have a hard time desoldering things with lead-free solder.

Realforce R2 keyboards are the same way with one screw and tabs all around.  I don't think the screw in those is there for anything but security purposes.  You definitely have to have a decent case opening tool for those things.

I replaced the switches in a Das Keyboard 4 a while back with silent box browns, and they were pretty decent.  They had a much more pronounced tactile bump at the top, but some of the stems were slightly crooked, and that bugged the heck out of me.  I was very impressed with how quiet they were, though.  They were right up there with the silent black switches in a Cherry G80-3494 I have, and about as quiet as a silenced Topre.

Truth be told these are growing on me.  They are however just a little too stiff at the top and will require lighter springs.  I use a Weller soldering station and I had no problem melting the solder.  Invest the $100 bucks instead of using a cheap pen and you will have a much easier time.

[Riverman]

I have a Weller soldering station, too, along with an Edsyn solder sucker that work well enough, but are awkward.  The Weller station certainly doesn't have any issues melting the solder, and that's what I used recently to replace a faulty switch on a Filco Majestouch 2.  I desoldered my old Das Keyboard with a Velleman vacuum desoldering pump.  That thing seemed like a great idea when I bought it, but it doesn't seem to have enough power to reliably melt solder.  I was trying to use it to desolder some capacitors on a Bose Lifestyle system recently, and it wouldn't do anything.  I think I just need to work on my technique with switching between the soldering iron and the solder sucker.

[Volny]

I'm a big believer in matching different switches to different keys based on use-case scenarios. Between my main keyboard and my macropads, I use some 15+ switch types. For example, linear for mods, medium-stiffness tactiles for alphas, extra stiff tactiles for punctuation, clicky for numlock, etc.

I've found Kaihl Silent Box Browns to be perfect for arrow keys, or any keys that I press quickly and repetively. The tactility is just strong enough to feel responsive, but weak enough that it doesn't slow you down when spamming the key. Meanwhile the cushion from the 'silent' silicon stopper is gentler on my knuckles and prevents the fatigue that could rapidly build up when spamming the key. I wouldn't use them for alphas though - they're too indistinct. Also, I refuse to use more than a small handful of Kaihl box switches, because lubing them is a nightmare! No matter how carefully I open them, that tiny green nub always seems to fall out, and takes me 10 minutes to get back into place, by which time I've probably smeared all sorts of grubby impurities from my fingers onto it.

I'm gravitating to silent switches in general though, as I realise they just feel so much better for my fingers. The Glorious Pandas I have on my alphas feel great in terms of satisfying tactility, but after a while they also kind of feel like I'm smashing my raw finger bones against a rock. I've tried o-rings but they don't seem to do much. I bought some Zilents but they feel like gravel to me (both the light and heavy variant I tried). They have this fast and wobbly pre-travel before they abruptly hit the start of the bump, so it almost feels like you're bottoming out the key twice. This gravelly quality actually makes them perfect for my key-switch fidget toy since the multiple levels of tactility give your fingers much to play with, but it feels rickety and sloppy to actually type on, to me.

I've ordered some Boba U4s, hoping that they might be a good cushioned replacement for my bone-crunching pandas. I never particularly liked the (non-cushioned) Boba U4T's that I own, but they never felt bad - just somewhat mediocre, and not quite as good as other tactiles I tried like Pandas, Koalas, or SP Stars. Hopefully the silent variant is inoffensive enough to work well for alphas. I'm not looking for perfection anymore - just something that will type well without me noticing it too much.

Can anyone recommend any other good 'silent' (MX) tactiles that would be worth trying? Not necessarily super quiet or super sexy - just something with some decent middle-of-the-road tactility with minimal weird idiosyncracies.

[HungerMechanic]

U4 is a more cushioned and less 'gravelly' switch than Zilents.

It's one big bump, and ends with dampening. Like a silenced, cushioned Panda.

If you just want something mild that isn't a giant bump and huge bottom-out, try OUTEMU Silent Sky stems. It's what came before U4. It's meant to be a silent Ergo Clear in the way U4 is a silenced Panda/T1.

The bump shape isn't really that of an Ergo Clear, but it's a similar intensity. I like them in MX Clear housings. You can use them in Boba housings, but they'll need to be 68 G to reach full tactility, and at least 60 G for decent functioning.

It might be more what you're looking for.

[Volny]

The silent Bobas sound very promising. I very much like the panda feel, just not the rock hard smack at the bottom. Glad I ordered the Boba U4s. If need be, I'll look into the outemu sky silent stems. Thanks for the advice.

[HungerMechanic]

You're welcome 

Yeah, it seems like you ordered the exact right tactiles for your needs. U4s are basically silent Pandas, with cushioning. Rich tactility for an MX switch.

I like to run them at 55-57 G, lubed, for a lighter U4, but you can run these babies way past 68 G if you want to. 62 G is standard.

Also, if you like SP Star tactiles, the new "Magic Girl" switches at TKC are said to be like a more refined SP Star Purple, sort of. You can read Theremingoat's review, which might even be posted here. I have some on the way so hopefully they are decent.

[Volny]

oh, I thought the SP Magic Girls were just recolors. I'll look into them closer. I like SP stars a lot (one of the only switches I have that already feel ideal to me with their stock springs) but haven't got many left, so might pick some up.

[HungerMechanic]

Sure, here's a review:

https://www.theremingoat.com/blog/sp-star-magic-girl-switch-review

I think they are primarily recolours, but the review implies that some slight manufacturing improvements may have been applied, leading to slightly better characteristics.

[Volny]

Yep, less spring ping and slightly less stem wobble. Sounds good.

[Volny]

Thanks for the advice, HungerMechanic!

My Boba U4s came today. I was initially disappointed to find them a little gravelly still (though not as bad as the zilents, and with far less stem wobble). But after lubing and sticking some longer springs in them (that's all I had, which is perhaps just as well as they seemed to improve things), I'm quite pleased with them. The graveliness has all but gone, and they feel very nice - indeed much like a gentler panda. I've got some at 65g and some at 45g and both feel very good so far.

I might pick up some outemu silent sky stems anyway, for frankenswitching. I think it's going to get increasingly hard for me to enjoy non-cushioned switches from now on, so I may be tempted to convert some of my existing switches.

By the way, is there such a thing as a 'silent' clicky switch? (This would only be an oxymoron because of the word "silent"; actually, a switch with a loud tactile click at actuation but a nice soft landing at bottom-out would be great)

[Leopard223]

Thanks for the advice, HungerMechanic!

My Boba U4s came today. I was initially disappointed to find them a little gravelly still (though not as bad as the zilents, and with far less stem wobble). But after lubing and sticking some longer springs in them (that's all I had, which is perhaps just as well as they seemed to improve things), I'm quite pleased with them. The graveliness has all but gone, and they feel very nice - indeed much like a gentler panda. I've got some at 65g and some at 45g and both feel very good so far.

I might pick up some outemu silent sky stems anyway, for frankenswitching. I think it's going to get increasingly hard for me to enjoy non-cushioned switches from now on, so I may be tempted to convert some of my existing switches.

By the way, is there such a thing as a 'silent' clicky switch? (This would only be an oxymoron because of the word "silent"; actually, a switch with a loud tactile click at actuation but a nice soft landing at bottom-out would be great)

NovelKeys are launching muted Jades in August, unsure how silent it will be compared to the traditional silent ones but from the short demonstration I’ve seen on IG, it seems quite tolerable.

[HungerMechanic]

Thanks for the advice, HungerMechanic!

My Boba U4s came today. I was initially disappointed to find them a little gravelly still (though not as bad as the zilents, and with far less stem wobble). But after lubing and sticking some longer springs in them (that's all I had, which is perhaps just as well as they seemed to improve things), I'm quite pleased with them. The graveliness has all but gone, and they feel very nice - indeed much like a gentler panda. I've got some at 65g and some at 45g and both feel very good so far.

I might pick up some outemu silent sky stems anyway, for frankenswitching. I think it's going to get increasingly hard for me to enjoy non-cushioned switches from now on, so I may be tempted to convert some of my existing switches.

By the way, is there such a thing as a 'silent' clicky switch? (This would only be an oxymoron because of the word "silent"; actually, a switch with a loud tactile click at actuation but a nice soft landing at bottom-out would be great)

Glad you were able to get U4 up-and-running! Sorry to hear about the initial 'graveliness,' I always thought they were fairly smooth unlubed.

But yes, lubing and spring improvement helps. They do seem to prefer medium and long springs, in my experience, particularly Spirit springs which are medium. And long springs at lower weights. How did you manage to get it working at 45 G lol

Silent Sky is definitely less-tactile than U4, a 'P' bump instead of a 'D' bump, but they work in all sorts of housings. So you could convert Cherry or TTC etc... housings to use them. TX springs work best with these, I think, unless you are going low like 55 G Spirit.

Leopard223 beat me to it, but yes, the silent BOX Jades are what everyone is waiting for. I've always said that an ideal tactile switch for many would be something with a small-but-crisp silent 'click' followed by cushioning. Silent Jade is a step towards that, they just need something in-between BOX White and BOX Jade tactility for a more general silent light clicky.

[Faceman76]

I'm curious what size spring and click bar will be used.  Firmer springs give box Navy a deeper sound. 

Not that there is a whole room to add material, but mass damping the enclosure itself will lower the resonant frequency and lower the SPL outputed by activating the switch.

Different materials could help as well.

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

[Volny]

NovelKeys are launching muted Jades in August, unsure how silent it will be compared to the traditional silent ones but from the short demonstration I’ve seen on IG, it seems quite tolerable.

Has anyone heard any news about these?

[Kokukenji]

For silent tactile, have you all tried Durock Silent Shrimp? I have the Silent Dolphin and it's amazing, not that jelly like so it still feels smooth but silent. Really curious to see how the Shrimp feels given the tactility.

[Volny]

For silent tactile, have you all tried Durock Silent Shrimp? I have the Silent Dolphin and it's amazing, not that jelly like so it still feels smooth but silent. Really curious to see how the Shrimp feels given the tactility.

I have the shrimps, and I think they're a very good switch, though the tactility is actually too heavy-handed for what I personally wanted them for (alphas). They have virtually no pre-travel, and this, combined with the strong tactile bump, makes them have almost a 'binary' feeling: one moment you're increasing pressure on the key without it even budging, the next moment you've already bottomed out. Similar to Holy Pandas in that respect, I guess. I think this very snappy actuation prevents them from feeling mushy at all, though it depends on how much you hate mushiness, I guess. For me, a rock-hard bottom-out is a bug, not a feature, so I actually prefer a little bit of a cushion on the bottom out.

The stem wobble is pretty acceptable (E/W wobble is minimal, N/S is moderate). I'm trying them with a few different springs, and so far I'm most liking them with some 15mm 55g TX springs - they somehow feel more elegant to me than stock.

Also, I'm a total sucker for switches that look like the things that they're named after, and these guys nail it. They resemble the shrimp below rather than the bright orange ones. But what was a nice surprise for me was that the silicon dampeners form little subtle black lines that can be seen through the translucent housing, just like the black vessels/intestines/whatever that you can see inside a shrimp. I know, it's a trivial and inconsequential thing, but like I said, I'm a sucker for that nonsense

[Kokukenji]

Thanks for that Volny! I just ordered a batch of shrimps to play with. I like that there are so many options but it's tough trying to figure out personal preference without actually trying to use it yourself. That's likely why this hobby never ends, haha.

[HungerMechanic]

I have the shrimps, and I think they're a very good switch, though the tactility is actually too heavy-handed for what I personally wanted them for (alphas). They have virtually no pre-travel, and this, combined with the strong tactile bump, makes them have almost a 'binary' feeling: one moment you're increasing pressure on the key without it even budging, the next moment you've already bottomed out. Similar to Holy Pandas in that respect, I guess.

Thanks for the detailed review! They seem like a good Silent T1.

'Binary' is a good word to describe switches like this. Most of the current favourites in heavy tactiles are like this.

If you want a more gradient silent tactile, your options are limited. There's Aliaz, Gateron Silent Brown, maybe TTC Silent Brown, and OUTEMU Silent Sky. I prefer Silent Sky. It really is about as intense as an Ergo Clear, depending on spring and housing. It has less pre-travel than a Cherry tactile, but there is greater post-travel after the bump than with U4 / T1. 'P' shape instead of 'D' shape.

[Volny]

Do you know what the difference is between outemu silent skies and outemu silent forests? The latter seems easier to find at the moment.

[HungerMechanic]

They are the same. It's just marketing, is my understanding.

It's best not to use the housings from Silent Sky / Silent Forest, though. They are outsized and noisy.

The stem is the best part, so pull the stems and put them in light tactile housings [or almost any Cherry housing]. Even Kailh Polia housings will do.

You can also order the stems directly from Gazzew on Reddit. Good Ergo Clear weights for the Silent Sky are 62-63.5 G.

[HungerMechanic]

Overall I'm a huge fan of the Kailh switch lineup.  They are reasonable in cost, many have shorter travel distance and great tactility. 

I am kind of disappointed overall.

BTW, if you are looking for a new and improved Kailh silent tactile, there is something new called the Kailh BOX Hush:

https://imgur.com/a/zunwMik

I don't know a lot about it, but maybe this is what you are looking for.

[Volny]

One thing I forgot to mention about the Shrimps is that the Stem X's are thinner than usual. Keycaps with particularly loose sockets will be too loose on them. I use mainly Signature Plastics DSA, which are all fine. But I have at least one keycap from some other brand that catapaults right off the switch when you let go.