Question for the tenLess/Spacesaver crowd

[Lanx]

I'm still currently modding my ergo4k and brown cherries (lots of stuff came up) anyway i had no intention of hacking off the numpad or the arrow key area, in fact i love the numpad.

I have no idea how to enter in numbers otherwise, maybe it was cuz i had a quick job doing OCR back in 97 and i used the numpad a bit but i cannot look down and try to enter in 1-0 from the typing area. And i love the big keys too, the big zero for the keypad, the big enter.

I find uses for pgup/dn home and end for navigating documents quickly. I also like having 1 button do one function, i don't like dual purpose buttons so i'm not cool with the arrow keys=numpad area.

plus when did do MMO gaming, i used the numpad to control my character, all my hotkeys was the entire area of prtscn/insert all the way to the arrow keys (movement was 4,5,6,8) and all those buttons were hotkeys too basically had 24 hotkeys for character abilities, and these were all linked to the layout of the numpad area, i could quickly press insert for an action, cuz it had all the blank space around it or other such keys.

I can see how ppl are saying, tenless = better posture cuz of using the mouse hand, but how many times are you typing on a document and flicking your hand off to the mouse? i'm typing this all up without even touching the mouse now.

I just want to get a feeling of how ppl view this area, there are errant posts here and there, but nothing really concrete for their reasons.

[itlnstln]

A bunch of good stuff.

I agree.  I love having a number pad as I work in retail and need to enter strings of UPCs and such.  Also, the posture thing is great and all, but I generally only either type or mouse, so it doesn't bother me at all.  To each his own, though.

[ch_123]

If you do stuff that requires entering lots of numbers, then yeah, you need a numpad. Touch typing large numbers using the row above the alpha block is tedious and error prone.

That said, most people here who have such keyboards just don't have that requirement. Or they get separate numpads... the advantage of that is that you can move the numpad elsewhere and not have it block where the mouse should go.

[Findecanor]

I think that the users that don't use num pads on the right-hand-side can be put into one or more of three categories:

• Never used a numpad because learned to type on a keyboard without one. Some find this faster because they can use both hands instead of just one.
• Prefers to use the left hand for entering numbers. Possibly a habit from when using a calculator whilst holding a pen in the right hand. Has a "tenkeyless", but has (or wants) also a separate numpad on the left side of the keyboard.
• Serious touch-typist that does not want to leave the home row. Never uses any keys outside the main typing area.
  

I, myself fit in categories 1 and 2. I am far from a touch typist. My right hand usually rests somewhere around the Enter key and moves around quite a bit. At home, I use a tenkeyless, but  I spend my workdays with a AT-layout keyboard, mostly browsing through source code and using the mouse to click on tabs and files. The keys that I use the most are the arrow keys, PageUp and PageDown. The num pad takes up unnecessary space between the arrow keys and the mouse.

I think that it would make more sense if full-size keyboards came with the num pad on the left side. I think that a numpad on the left side would be better for games than the WASD cluster.

[hyperlinked]

I'd put myself in the category of serious touch typist and I like having a num-pad. I also think a serious touch typist needs to be able to leave the home row and get back quickly without getting lost.

I don't know if it's for psychological or for practical reasons, but whenever I need to enter numbers in for accounting purposes or I need to handle numbers in a spreadsheet, I naturally reach for the numpad. If I'm just typing in numbers into an email, I use the numbers in the regular part of the keyboard.

I'd like to see some options for the numpad on the left side too. I always find it odd to have to sit off center of the monitor or the desk because the keyboard is causing me to have to shift to the left in order to use it. It'd take some getting used to for me to punch numbers with my left hand, but I'd get used to it.

[instantkamera]

I'd put myself in the category of serious touch typist and I like having a num-pad. I also think a serious touch typist needs to be able to leave the home row and get back quickly without getting lost.

I don't know if it's for psychological or for practical reasons, but whenever I need to enter numbers in for accounting purposes or I need to handle numbers in a spreadsheet, I naturally reach for the numpad. If I'm just typing in numbers into an email, I use the numbers in the regular part of the keyboard.

I'd like to see some options for the numpad on the left side too. I always find it odd to have to sit off center of the monitor or the desk because the keyboard is causing me to have to shift to the left in order to use it. It'd take some getting used to for me to punch numbers with my left hand, but I'd get used to it.

for me it's passwords. I use alpha-numeric (ALPHA NUMERIC!) passwords, and for that I use the row-above-alpha. The minute I enter a string of digits that does not contain any letters, numpad!

I think though, I COULD do without the numpad (even though I'd miss the enter key a bit), but never without the nav clusters. That is why I wish that UNICOMP would ditch their space saver in favour of a model M SS replica, (in black and grey like the customizer) - current "dream board".

[gr1m]

I ended up buying a keyboard with the numpad because the styling of the keyboard, similar to Filcos (it's the Steelseries 6Gv2) is so damn minimalist and there's so little space wasted that it's drastically smaller than any clunky and clumsy membrane keyboard I've used.

tl;dr well-designed mechanical keyboards are compact enough that you can keep the numpad without wasting too much space.

[ch_123]

I think though, I COULD do without the numpad (even though I'd miss the enter key a bit), but never without the nav clusters. That is why I wish that UNICOMP would ditch their space saver in favour of a model M SS replica, (in black and grey like the customizer) - current "dream board".

Here is a Unicomp Spacesaver -



See those two yellow lines? That's roughly how wide a "Space Saving" Model M is.

This was something that I was familiar with for a long time but it only really struck me when I got an IBM mini... Think about it. You're Unicomp, a company that makes keyboards for businesses and banks. Do you want to go to the effort of constructing a keyboard that chops off a useful (for your target market) piece of functionality in order to be about an inch or two thinner?

The proposed M4-1 design that they may/may not be working on would be a much better idea. Not least because it would be one of the thinnest mechanicals around.

[shrap]

I can see how ppl are saying, tenless = better posture cuz of using the mouse hand, but how many times are you typing on a document and flicking your hand off to the mouse? i'm typing this all up without even touching the mouse now.

Uh, like all the time. I have to switch input boxes, applications, etc. I know most of the keyboard shortcuts to all my programs, but in a windows-centric world, a mouse is nearly essential.

A better question is: how often are you using the computer without using your mouse? Unplug it and tell me how well you can browse the internet.

[ch_123]

I launched my browser, navigated to this page, signed in, and wrote this reply all without using a mouse.



Yeah, did that without a mouse too. And not much slower than it would have been if I had used a mouse.

Now, how often do I do stuff like this without a mouse? That's another question

[Rusty Rat]

The number pad is a hangover from original days when PCs gained their commercial acceptance and popularity though VisiCalc and then Lotus, essentially the pre mouse days. Apart from programmers and a few heavy users of spreadsheets and other data entry most research is showing that less than 4% of people ever use the number pad. To most people it just represents a lazy Enter key. Ergonomically the ghj keys should be roughly centre screen and the number pad pushes the mouse too far right for overall comfort.
For data entry the best compromise has always been a separate number pad which is placed  conveniently for the operator rather than a basic layout that is over 30 years old.
I know someone that specializes in ergonomics and apart from seating positions etc one of the first thing he recommends for conventional typing – is to get rid of the extended keyboard.

[shrap]

I doubt programmers even use the number pad; we use even weirder keys like the brackets, braces, semicolons, etc. more than numbers.

[washuai]

I'm more comfortable typing numbers on the number pad.  I think I could live without my number pad, but it would be an adjustment, since I do use it at least a few times a day without even thinking about it.  I do ok number row wise with my left hand number row, but often get a key off, on my right hand.  I'd rather get a shorter board, than continue to have wrist pain, however.  I'm tired of the keyboard, trackball, me, adjustable shelf dance I go through all day, continually moving things or over reaching when I don't.  Ergonomically, I need the tenkeyless and I'd like my number pad detachable.  For gaming, I'd rather have a speed pad or programmable num pad, than a regular attached one.

It is true that the minimalism of my full size Filco allows me to avoid/minimize over reach, but only if you have a high precision mouse you don't move much or a trackball.  I'd still be better off if it was two inches shorter.  

It would probably be better if I used my keyboard more and my trackball less in some circumstances, but I bounce back and forth all day.

[instantkamera]

Buy a ****ING Unicomp SpaceSaver already!

ok, ok, I'm buying already ... *pulls out CC*

[Lanx]

about the ergonomics of it all, again i use the msergo4k on an ergotron wall mounted tray, i find that if the keyboard is too wide to the left or right, i just shift it real quick. I think out of all the possible ergonomic issues ( i check myself to a chiropractor every 2 years to do those wierd ergonomic tests and scans, i'm basically 95% fine in posture and everything, got into this habit when i was dying from rsi/cts which i don't suffer from anymore cuz of my current setup). oh having your knees 90's your elbows 90's having the monitor correct distance away (rule of thumb is to throw out your arm like your punching and your fish should just touch the screen) and screen at the correct height(your eye should be level with the top bezel or top part of screen). having the tenless for ergonomic issues i think might just be for the shoulder crowd, either the really big or really narrow shoulders, i'm 5 10" and just don't have an issue tenless or not.

plus i use the numpad for any number input spreadsheet and such, i actually have to hunt and peck if i do not have a numpad.

[Rajagra]

You know ... I've worked at quite a few companies where I've received ergonomics training about PC usage. And I'm sure they've never mentioned that normal keyboards are 'right heavy.' They've ignored the issue because they don't have an easy (and cost-free) solution to the problems it causes.

Most people who make an effort to position a keyboard properly end up centering it in front of them, so the letters are off to the left, and they are permanently twisting their bodies to deal with this. Without even knowing it.

[patrickgeekhack]

I doubt programmers even use the number pad; we use even weirder keys like the brackets, braces, semicolons, etc. more than numbers.

I have often read many programmers saying that they don't use the numpad. I may be different. I worked as a programmer for two and half years for a French company selling software to the French government. I can tell you that the everyone in that company were anal. When you submit your work and said it was done, it was better done right. The project leader would test it as much as he could, accepting to bug. Therefore, very often, we had to create data sample to test. It would have been a pain to type phone number and postal codes for multiple records using the number row.

[keyboardlover]

I have often read many programmers saying that they don't use the numpad. I may be different. I worked as a programmer for two and half years for a French company selling software to the French government. I can tell you that the everyone in that company were anal. When you submit your work and said it was done, it was better done right. The project leader would test it as much as he could, accepting to bug. Therefore, very often, we had to create data sample to test. It would have been a pain to type phone number and postal codes for multiple records using the number row.

For what it's worth, I am a programmer, and I use the numpad daily (and have for years). I like it, but I'm sure not everyone does. Just as all the keyboard users on this board are different, all programmers are different concerning what kind of setup they like, etc.

[Lenny_Nero]

I use the number pad when I have it and the top row when I dont.
I do have a shortcut that as standard uses the number pad for part of it and when I first got a tenkeyless I was amazed at how many times an hour I dumped my right hand onto the desk expecting to hit the button.

IIRC my dad never used the number pad, well not that I saw, but then they were quite a new thing with his computer use, I dont think that there were 104plus sized keyboard invented/around for more than half of his computer use.

[Lanx]

This can't possibly just be the programmer crowd that wants 10less, how about this, what if the number row was flipped to constant symbol instead, then we wouldn't have to deal with annoying SHIFT all the time. Maybe it's just me but i hate SHIFT, i even shift properly with the opposing pinkies as was taught in class. (I don't have any plans to get a foot pedal for it though)

[keyboardlover]

I use the number pad when I have it and the top row when I dont.
I do have a shortcut that as standard uses the number pad for part of it and when I first got a tenkeyless I was amazed at how many times an hour I dumped my right hand onto the desk expecting to hit the button.

IIRC my dad never used the number pad, well not that I saw, but then they were quite a new thing with his computer use, I dont think that there were 104plus sized keyboard invented/around for more than half of his computer use.

I think I'm pretty much like you - I only use the numpad because I have it. I like the idea of tenkeyless boards and I'm sure if I have one it'd only be a matter of time before I got used to it. I think the numpad can be nice to have but if space is an issue it's not a dealbreaker.

[shrap]

I have often read many programmers saying that they don't use the numpad. I may be different. I worked as a programmer for two and half years for a French company selling software to the French government. I can tell you that the everyone in that company were anal. When you submit your work and said it was done, it was better done right. The project leader would test it as much as he could, accepting to bug. Therefore, very often, we had to create data sample to test. It would have been a pain to type phone number and postal codes for multiple records using the number row.

That doesn't sound like fun. I would be too lazy to type a single phone number correctly (plus I would have to know the telephone format) and I would Google a site to generate a few thousand fake phone numbers/addresses/id numbers or whatever. Or write one myself.

[Rusty Rat]

In days of old everyone was tenkeyless with typewriters and that forced a normal ghj position. The right of the keyboard was reserved for the coffee cup which you could knock over without buggering up your key set.
Progress is a wonderful thing.

[aegrotatio]

The tenkey and cursor/navigation keys were placed there before people used computers with a mouse.  If the mouse were there I think the numeric keypad or the navigation keys may have been placed on the left like very early IBM PC keyboards and those used with Sun workstations.

[hoggy]

This can't possibly just be the programmer crowd that wants 10less, how about this, what if the number row was flipped to constant symbol instead, then we wouldn't have to deal with annoying SHIFT all the time. Maybe it's just me but i hate SHIFT, i even shift properly with the opposing pinkies as was taught in class. (I don't have any plans to get a foot pedal for it though)

I've tried it (on one of these), but I as I flip from board to board quite often I haven't gotten used to it.  I did a letter frequency analysis of a bunch of typing and worked out that it would help with around 1% of my typing.  While 1% doesn't sound like much - engineers designing car engines would be rather happy with an engine that was 1% better...

[hyperlinked]

Here's my tenkeyless. Notice anything unusual?



As for whether a tenkeyless is ergonomic or not, it depends. If someone is out there giving out advice that getting rid of the number pad is a very important first step, he's either in the fringe or doesn't actually know that much. I'm not saying he's wrong, but anyone who really understands ergonomics knows better than to make blanket statements.

By definition ergonomics means the study of how people interact with their working environments. People are different shapes, sizes, and heights and they do different tasks from job to job with the same equipment sometimes. That means a lot of rules may need to bend sometimes depending on the circumstances of who it is and what they're doing.

[Findecanor]

The tenkey and cursor/navigation keys were placed there before people used computers with a mouse.  If the mouse were there I think the numeric keypad or the navigation keys may have been placed on the left like very early IBM PC keyboards and those used with Sun workstations.

I blame Digital Equipment Corporation (DEC) ...

The setup with the inverted-T cursor keys setup was introduced by DEC for their VT220 terminal in 1983. The layout was based on those of DEC's earlier keyboards.
Although the VT220 itself looked like a standalone CRT monitor, DEC's earlier terminals from the mid 70's  were bulky things. The VT52 had a screen, keyboard and logic integrated into one unit. The CRT and typing area were aligned with eachother on the left side of the unit. There was a numpad to the right of the typing area, and then even a bit of flat space.
DECs next generation of  terminals: the VT102 had the keyboard in a separate unit, but the CRT and typing area were still on the left side aligned to eachother. DEC set the standard. Many early computers had the same setup, with floppy disk drives mounted vertically -- to the right of the screen within the same enclosure as the CRT, and the numpad on the right.

In conclusion: the location of the numpad was originally chosen so that the main typing area would be aligned with the center of the screen, but later this principle was abandoned.

[hyperlinked]

In conclusion: the location of the numpad was originally chosen so that the main typing area would be aligned with the center of the screen, but later this principle was abandoned.

That's too bad because that's my main issue with full sized keyboards. They create some interesting conflicts in how you can center yourself. Most keyboard trays don't account for the keyboard being off center and when you center your monitor, you get one side of your desk getting very cramped for space while the other side is wide open.

[gr1m]

That's too bad because that's my main issue with full sized keyboards. They create some interesting conflicts in how you can center yourself. Most keyboard trays don't account for the keyboard being off center and when you center your monitor, you get one side of your desk getting very cramped for space while the other side is wide open.

I wonder how natural this layout is? It's probably an FPS thing since the first thing I can ever remember doing on a computer was playing an FPS:


I know that I can't stand to use computers in any different layout (obviously I have to put it up with it sometimes, like at my college's computer lab and laptops and whatnot). Is it common, healthy, unhealthy, etc.? Maybe that's why I gave up on learning how to touch type. I'll place the alpha-numeric section of my keyboard dead-center with my monitor and see if touch typing feels any better. But yeah actually now that I think of it, the only reason I like my desk that way is that I'm used to WASD.

[hyperlinked]

I wonder how natural this layout is? It's probably an FPS thing since the first thing I can ever remember doing on a computer was playing an FPS:

I'm going to guess that you put your elbows on the desk when you're gaming, right? If you do this, then the most likely reason you do this is because it helps you have more mouse control when you have very firm arm support. Otherwise, you end up putting extra pressure on your right hand and it's hard to get fine movements that you'd need for FPS gaming while you're leaning on your mouse hand.

Your desk is probably then too tall to place your arms comfortably in the classic 90 degrees position with your elbows at the side so you have to either spread your keyboard and mouse to the side or farther forward than is classically suggested. This is all for the purpose of giving you better control and more comfortable control.

That doesn't mean it's good for your health though. It might be the best setup for gaming performance based on your habits and what you have to work with, but it's possible your hands, neck, and back might be better off with other setups if you can get used to them.

[gr1m]

Yeah, you're right about the elbows. About the classic position, you might be right because it doesn't feel all too great but that can be attributed to me not being used to it as opposed to my desk being too tall. However, I actually chose this desk because it was the best for that FPS position, because the ones that are short can hurt your shoulders if you're trying to keep your elbows down on the desk. Well, I didn't take my PC to the furniture store and play a round of CS or anything but I sat at it in the store just to check the comfort. I'm guessing those same short desks where my shoulders feel strained in the FPS position are the ones where I can use the classic position comfortably.

[hyperlinked]

Yeah, you're right about the elbows. About the classic position, you might be right because it doesn't feel all too great

It could be because your desk is too tall or it could be because you're not tall enough or your chair is too low. It all factors in. There are definitely other setups that you'll like, but it might take a lot of experimenting to find it because you're looking for a setup that's not just good for your health, but good for performance and two huge reasons why people adopt preferred postures is for performance and to avoid pain.

In my case, I have a very adjustable chair, a very strong and adjustable keyboard tray, and a large 30" monitor. If I were doing FPS gaming, I can use all of these things in combination to give me the arm support needed for precise mouse control without having to adopt "bad" postures. If I only had a typical chair and a desk, I might decide the next best thing is what you have going.

[dan_public]

I just purchased two Filco "Majestouch Tenkeyless Tactile Touch" (Cherry Brown) and a Filco keypad (http://www.elitekeyboards.com/products.php?sub=filco_keyboards,majestouch_10key).   I'm software developer now, but have had several careers over the last 40 years.   During the mid '80s I was the DEC OEM Business Development Manager for peripherals (and then all aftermarket product).  More on that in a minute.

Frankly, I love my Filco Tenkeyless keyboards  after having used Microsoft and Logitech full size keyboards for years.   I used full size keyboard because that's what the retailers sold or because that's what my customers provided.  (I'm a contract software developer.)  

What we have today exists mostly because of inertia.  We use what we use mostly because that's what we've always used.  We just plod along, using out of date designs because...  well, just because.   There has been some design work in "ergonomic" keyboards, but they slow down typing and have cheesy dome technology.   Worst of all, no one questioned the need for a keypad.

But this may be changing, even with the keyboards from the big guys.  I just noticed this Microsoft keyboard with a detachable keypad: http://www.amazon.com/Microsoft-AGB-00001-SideWinder-X6-Keyboard/dp/B001DWI4FM/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1280585717&sr=8-1.  I researched a bit more and found other 10keyless keyboards available from Best Buy.   Most are still cheaply made, but at least they are available now.  (I didn't see this a couple of years ago.)  That said, I believe that the buying departments for most companies still buy what's on their approved buying list - 104 keyboards from Microsoft and Logitech.  

As I mentioned above, my role at DEC was to develop the peripherals and aftermarket business through OEMs.   I spent a lot of time talking with the engineers, product managers, and marketing managers in DECs peripherals groups - terminals, printers, disk drives,etc.   While some of them were pretty good, there were a fair number that were dim bulbs.  

It's probably not obvious to most people, but DEC's peripherals groups didn't attract the best and brightest.   And a lot of ideas came from test-bench marketing.   Engineers would come up with some "bright" idea, build a prototype, and then run with it.    Many of peripherals product managers and marketing managers were just salesmen - they never questioned whether the designs were reasonable or met customers needs.   They just ran around and tried to get guys like me to develop the market for them.

There were a few people like me at DEC who did some very strange things.  Like doing market research, talking to customers, and getting the engineers in front of customers (instead of hiding in the bowels of the company).   I could tell you hundreds of stories about the silliness that went on, but here's one to give you an idea...

During lunch with one the VT220 product managers, I asked him how he was going to address declining market share.  (C. Itoh was pounding the cr@p out of us because their terminals were something like 60% of the price of the VT220.)   His response was, "People buy DEC because of the quality.  We don't have a problem."  Since I had quarter over quarter sales numbers for OEMs, I realized that he was clueless.  

While some great work has been done by very good product managers and engineers in the past, my experiences indicated that they best talent went elsewhere.   I'd like to see more creative thinking and research going in to improving keyboard technology further.  For example, I'd like to see a slightly curved, ergonomic, tenkeyless, mechanical keyboard. But, I'm not holding my breath.  

Oh well, I now have my Filcos.  And maybe a Topre Realforce in the future.

Regards,

Dan.

p.s. When DEC started downsizing in 1990, I was in the first wave that was offered the buyout package because I didn't fit the "corporate citizen" mold. My manager handed me the buyout offer and told me to take a week or so to think about it.  He was floored when I signed the offer 12 minutes later.  I took the money and ran.

[ch_123]

It's probably not obvious to most people, but DEC's peripherals groups didn't attract the best and brightest.

Haha, oh no... I think I figured that out for myself after I typed on a DEC LK-201 for the first time. I still maintain to this day that they're the single worst keyboard I've ever had the displeasure of using...

The layout was good by the standards of the day, and probably was what inspired IBM to make the 101-key layout we all know and love today.

[sam113101]

It could be because your desk is too tall or it could be because you're not tall enough or your chair is too low. It all factors in. There are definitely other setups that you'll like, but it might take a lot of experimenting to find it because you're looking for a setup that's not just good for your health, but good for performance and two huge reasons why people adopt preferred postures is for performance and to avoid pain.

In my case, I have a very adjustable chair, a very strong and adjustable keyboard tray, and a large 30" monitor. If I were doing FPS gaming, I can use all of these things in combination to give me the arm support needed for precise mouse control without having to adopt "bad" postures. If I only had a typical chair and a desk, I might decide the next best thing is what you have going.

are you sure that bigger monitor means more ergonomic*?
I think 30" is too much IMO

speaking of monitors, what do you think would be the best monitor size*?
what resolution should that monitor have*?

I'm quite concerned about monitors these days,
I'm wondering if I should have two monitors, if they should have the same size/resolution, etc

I do webbrowsing and programming

[ch_123]

Check out the "Other Geeky Stuff" section - there's a few threads on the topic. I don't think we came to any sort of consensus though...

[dan_public]

Haha, oh no... I think I figured that out for myself after I typed on a DEC LK-201 for the first time. I still maintain to this day that they're the single worst keyboard I've ever had the displeasure of using...

The layout was good by the standards of the day, and probably was what inspired IBM to make the 101-key layout we all know and love today.

I don't know if I mentioned it on this board, but on the topic of DEC keyboards...

I attended a presentation where there were about 30 of us stuffed into a conference room that would normally hold about 15 people.  The terminals team (including the aforementioned dim bulb) gave presentations to us about the features and benefits of current and new terminals.   In the group were two VPs including my boss (two levels up).   So...

Mr dimbulb was discussing the shape of the tops of the key caps.  He was going on and ON and ON about how great they were and that they were MUCH superior to IBM key caps.   Being a no-BS, cynical kind of guy I asked, "So let's see...  You just told us that DEC users loved DEC key caps and therefore they were superior to IBM key caps.  What if the user was an IBM user?"   His response...  "Well, I guess they would prefer IBM key caps."  

My VP and I looked at each other and rolled our eyes.   Then we waited for the guy to figure out how irrational his key cap argument sounded.  And waited...  And waited...  Nothing.  No reaction.   He just didn't get it.   About 45 seconds later, Mr dim bulb's manager hopped up and took over.

I could tell you a story about DEC's introduction CDROMs as an option for their computers.    And how they expected that my OEMs would somehow magically build the software to create and publish content.   I loved the look on their faces when I told them the facts of life.   But that's another story...

Dan.

[ch_123]

My particular gripe with them was that the key feel. I haven't taken one apart properly yet, but it looks like the keycap just depresses a plastic flap that mashes together the membrane contacts.

[hyperlinked]

are you sure that bigger monitor means more ergonomic*?
I think 30" is too much IMO

You are completely wrong... and completely right. It might be too much for what you need to do with your monitor, your eyesight, your height, your attention span, the height of your desk, the chair you sit in, and so forth. For me, it's perfect. For the example I brought it up under, yes it would mean that it's "more ergonomic" in general.

The reason why they always suggest that your eyesight should line up with the top of your monitor is because having to gaze upwards tends to cause more muscle tension than gazing downward. Try it right now. Without moving your neck, stare upward about 30 degrees. Then try staring downward 30 degrees. You can repeat this test with some neck motion if you like, but it's also less uncomfortable for you to tilt your head down than it is to tilt it upward.

A 30" monitor in my case makes the whole centering issue less of an issue because I have so much more space to work with that if something is off center, it doesn't necessarily mean I have to look up, down, left, or right to focus on my work. I can move the window directly in front of me and leave the side space for background stuff.

speaking of monitors, what do you think would be the best monitor size*?
what resolution should that monitor have*?

I can't say without knowing more about you and your needs. Start a new thread about this. Tell me about what you need to use the monitor for and all the details about your setup that you can.

I'm quite concerned about monitors these days,
I'm wondering if I should have two monitors, if they should have the same size/resolution, etc

Again, it depends on how you have those two setup and how you plan to use them. I'll just go back to my muscle strain example from above.

Here's a dumbed down guide to ergonomics and monitor placement:

• GOOD: You can see most of your work gazing straight forward
• SLIGHTLY BAD: You have to gaze downward a bit
• BAD: You have to gaze upward, left, or right
• AWFUL: You have to gaze diagonally upward or downward

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Here's my tenkeyless. Notice anything unusual?

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Sorry to quote myself, but I thought it'd be relevant to make this obvious. Here's how you can quickly convert a 104-key to a tenkeyless and back easily. Get a keyboard tray with a mouse platform. If you look carefully at this photo, you'll see the numpad barely sticking out. A keyboard tray is a good investment. A keyboard tray that allows you to have a tenkeyless when you want and a numpad too, is even better and it'll cost about the same as a really good tenkeyless board.

You'll also find out how much you'll miss having a numpad. In my case, I found out that I miss it a lot. I tried covering it up halfway because that's the most comfortable mouse position for me, but I couldn't stop myself from reaching for the numpad if even one key was exposed. Interestingly enough, it was easier to resist if it was almost entirely covered up.

I seem to remember that someone mentioned broad shoulders either in this thread or another related thread. That is relevant and so is your posture. Actually, posture could actually have a lot to do with it. If you're hunched over, your shoulder width decreases and your arms actually rotate to point inward more. This means the mouse is a longer reach all of a sudden even though it didn't actually move farther away.