it is coming... SA RETRO!

[Matt3o]

Ladies and Gents it is finally coming!

DSA Retro was my first GB (with the restless help of samwisekoi), it was one of the first western organized DSA keycap set and over 450 of you are still enjoying it. I'm promising an SA incarnation since forever and now it is finally the time!

Please welcome SA Retro!

The row profile should be: 1-1-2-3-4-4 (with shift keys in R3).

The semi-final kits are as follow:



Please review and send your suggestions!

[MAR82]

I think I would rather have it all be row 3 profile, but I would still love to have it with the different profiles. 
Are there any plans to support different layouts (like JD40 or planck)

but since we still don't have shift keys in the right profile it seems a fair enough compromise.

What profile row are the shift keys available in?

So does this mean we're going to see a 2nd round of Retro DSA and first round Retro SA at about the same time? (btw did they ever get your approval on that 2nd round of DSA?
I've been waiting so long to get my hands on a Retro set 

[Matt3o]

shift keys are row-3

DSA Retro has been postponed after SA Retro. I don't know when. exactly.

[MAR82]

Ok cool
Yeah I remember asking you about it coming out in SA, and you told me you had plans for it but didn't know when you would do it
The only reason I could see me also getting it in DSA would be for compatibility with non standard layouts (that's the main reason I would've liked this set all row 3)

With the mockup you made all brown, it reminds me a bit of this typewriter (not so much now that you added some more color) I saw a few months ago (I would love to have a set like with caps in THAT profile)


So did you ever give SP your blessing to use the Retro design for that second run of DSA, or are they doing this all without you? Because I think you said they didn't ask you in another thread

[dimmu]

your dsa is one of the most beautiful keysets i've seen. i am more into gmk now, but i will definitely be in for this. any chance you get some color packs out there just to liven things up a bit?

[Matt3o]

more colors will be available in the final mockup.

PS: they asked permission for DSA retro.

[Elrick]

Please welcome SA Retro!

I'm still in the prototyping phase. What I know is that I want it to be sculpted profile, so it won't be all row-3 (but an all row-3 option might be available). I'm exploring various options and before going head down designing the whole thing I'd like an opinion on the following rows profile:

Show Image

Basically:
- Function keys ROW 3
- Number row ROW 1
- QWE ROW 2
- ASD ROW 3
- ZXC ROW 3
- Bottom row ROW 4

I don't think this has been done before (might be wrong), but since we still don't have shift keys in the right profile it seems a fair enough compromise.

Just as a reminder, this is how the rows look like

Show Image

Thoughts?

SCHWEET GEEZUS we are now in the garden of delight with this key-set.  I was one of those fortunate enough to jump on your DSA sets all those years ago and it took this long for your SA profiled set to eventuate.

Dancing around my office right now, feeling good and fancy free  .

Thank you Matt for making this official now, just add a few more colours to this wonderful color-way like special coloured separate keys, that will make this a truly Retro Key-set  .

[jdcarpe]

matt3o, the only problem with doing the bottom row in R4 has been that there are no molds for 1.25u keys in semi matte finish, which most organizers have been using with SA. Those are only available in matte finish. I think doing an entire set in matte finish would be nice, though.

[MAR82]

matt3o, the only problem with doing the bottom row in R4 has been that there are no molds for 1.25u keys in semi matte finish, which most organizers have been using with SA. Those are only available in matte finish. I think doing an entire set in matte finish would be nice, though.

Does anyone have a picture of what the matte finish looks like, and does it make a big change in the feel of the keys?

[Elrick]

Those are only available in matte finish. I think doing an entire set in matte finish would be nice, though.

Wouldn't mind if this was all Matte in finish like it's named creator  .

Every SA key-set has been shiny thus far so this would be a good time to introduce something different, surface finish-wise of course.

[SpAmRaY]

Who will handle fulfillment?

[jdcarpe]

matt3o, the only problem with doing the bottom row in R4 has been that there are no molds for 1.25u keys in semi matte finish, which most organizers have been using with SA. Those are only available in matte finish. I think doing an entire set in matte finish would be nice, though.

Does anyone have a picture of what the matte finish looks like, and does it make a big change in the feel of the keys?

23 Commando was mostly matte finish, in 1-2-3-3-3-4 profile. However, the correctly sized Shifts and Return keys are only available in semi matte finish.


Photo credit: jil_jil32



This is why most recent full contour SA sets, including my Hack'd By Geeks, have been 3-1-2-3-4-3 row profiles in semi matte. It's always some compromise with SA.

[MAR82]

After seeing the picture JD shared, I would totally be down for for a matte finish. But the only problem I see is that SP doesn't have the right tools for everything we would need for a sculpted profile set (semi matte or matte), so it might be best to stick to a row3 layout?

[jdcarpe]

After seeing the picture JD shared, I would totally be down for for a matte finish. But the only problem I see is that SP doesn't have the right tools for everything we would need for a sculpted profile set (semi matte or matte), so it might be best to stick to a row3 layout?

I'd rather deal with finish mismatches, or compromises like row 3 shifts in an otherwise row 4 row. I have a set of the Filco sphericals, which are SA profile SP caps in 1-2-3-3-3-3, and I much prefer my PuLSE set in 3-1-2-3-4-3. I simply do not enjoy typing on a flat, non-contoured key surface.

[Supergeek]

Are the color choices still open for suggestions?

I owned a C64 and C128 and Amiga 1000 back in the day, so I'm all over this set. However, the colors you used for Retro DSA were not authentic colors. Since you chose a Commodore logo key legend, I assumed this cap set was an homage to the Commodore line, and perhaps by extension all of the home computers and consoles of the 80s.

The Vic 20 and C64 had dark brown keys, but their function keys were either a caramel color or a lighter greyish brown color. I've found photos with both (linking instead of embedding so I don't overwhelm the post with huge inline photos):

http://classiccmp.org/dunfield/c64/h/front.jpg

http://www.bitstormgames.com/revivalstudios/images/homebrew/vic20/vic20.png

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/39/CBMVIC20P8.jpg

Obviously, the color choices are up to you, Matt3o. But it would be cool to have some options for mods and fkeys that are in line with the old Commodores!

[Matt3o]

Who will handle fulfillment?

not clear yet. would you be interested? In case please contact me directly

matt3o, the only problem with doing the bottom row in R4 has been that there are no molds for 1.25u keys in semi matte finish, which most organizers have been using with SA. Those are only available in matte finish. I think doing an entire set in matte finish would be nice, though.

Yes I'm aware of the situation. It seems that there's not much love for row-4 on the bottom row, so I'll probably go for a standard 3-1-2-3-4-3 but the shift keys would be row-3...

I owned a C64 and C128 and Amiga 1000 back in the day, so I'm all over this set. However, the colors you used for Retro DSA were not authentic colors. Since you chose a Commodore logo key legend, I assumed this cap set was an homage to the Commodore line, and perhaps by extension all of the home computers and consoles of the 80s.

The set is inspired by the C64. We also had a beige set of function rows, and some novelties ("run/stop", and "restore").

The alternate color for the mods were "plum" but we can choose otherwise. Maybe beige, or even yellow this time.

Okay so, excluding the row-4 bottom line the other options are:

1) 3 - 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 3 (with wrong shifts)
2) 2 - 2 - 3 - 3 - 3 - 3
3) 1 - 2 - 3 - 3 - 3 - 3
4) 1 - 1 - 2 - 3 - 3 - 3

[MAR82]

How about a 2-1-2-3-3-3?

Otherwise I'd go with options 3 and 4

[jdcarpe]

Option 1 for me

[SpAmRaY]

Option 1 for me

+1

[Supergeek]

The set is inspired by the C64. We also had a beige set of function rows, and some novelties ("run/stop", and "restore").

The alternate color for the mods were "plum" but we can choose otherwise. Maybe beige, or even yellow this time.

Okay the beige fkeys with the brown keys don't look so good to me. Maybe with beige mods and brown F5-F8? The plum looks really nice together with the brown, though, so maybe just stick with that even if it isn't "canon."

RUN STOP would make a great Pause/Break key replacements, so that would be a definite buy for me, along with any other novelty legends based on the old Commodores. (SHIFT LOCK, RESTORE, CLR HOME, etc.)

I'll have to print out a sticker with the rainbow lines on it to put on the board, too. And maybe a red power LED.

[Nuum]

Brown and yellow sounds like a good idea! I like profile option 1 the most.

[Oobly]

matt3o, the only problem with doing the bottom row in R4 has been that there are no molds for 1.25u keys in semi matte finish, which most organizers have been using with SA. Those are only available in matte finish. I think doing an entire set in matte finish would be nice, though.

Penumbra has semi-matte row 4 bottom row keys, so I'm sure they can do it. Typing on them right now..

Have they STILL not finalised those Row 4 Shifts?!.... sigh...

I want 1-1-2-3-4-4 like modern Cherry profile, although 3-1-2-3-4-3 is also nice. Full sculpt over the alpha and number keys is awesome.

Favourite: 1-1-2-3-4-4
Next best: 1-2-3-3-3-4 like Penumbra and Commando or 3-1-2-3-4-3 like Pulse and Hack'd by Geeks.

[jdcarpe]

Penumbra has semi-matte row 4 bottom row keys, so I'm sure they can do it. Typing on them right now..

Penumbra has 1.25u bottom row mods in semi-matte finish?

Have they STILL not finalised those Row 4 Shifts?!.... sigh...

No, and while they haven't said this specifically to me, I don't believe they have any plans to make them, unless we pay for them ($4000 per mold).

[Matt3o]

No, and while they haven't said this specifically to me, I don't believe they have any plans to make them, unless we pay for them ($4000 per mold).

$4500 last time I checked........

[jdcarpe]

No, and while they haven't said this specifically to me, I don't believe they have any plans to make them, unless we pay for them ($4000 per mold).

$4500 last time I checked........

Yeah, $13,500 is kinda hard to build into a group buy of 200 orders or so...

[Zebadule]

Exciting! I've been waiting for this a long time.

I feel like the plum color really made the set, and would love to see it back.

Colemak support is very important to me. Are there plans to offer an adapter kit?

Edit: corrected auto-corrected word.

[techmattr]

Oh man I can't wait for this. I really wish it was going to be all R3. So much more comfortable to type on than sculpted. But this set will be way too amazing to pass up.

[Elrick]

Actually the MORE I look at Matt3o's design up top here with the majority of the keys being brown and only 2 keys (ESC and Enter) being Green is perfection.

It helps to keep the costing down like the Nuclears had been but still drawing people in to admire their simplicity which will last for years ahead.  Please remember that Matt3o is a qualified Designer and he's Italian meaning he has more credibility here on this subject than anyone else at Geekhack central.

Very happy for you to put through this design to SP for manufacturing because it encapsulates the real meaning of Retro without it looking like some kind of Clown Colour-way attracting colour blind morons.

We are educated individuals who want a conservative expression of our keyboards and it's always those simple colour-ways, that will go into the Book of Legends  .

[Oobly]

Penumbra has semi-matte row 4 bottom row keys, so I'm sure they can do it. Typing on them right now..

Penumbra has 1.25u bottom row mods in semi-matte finish?

Have they STILL not finalised those Row 4 Shifts?!.... sigh...

No, and while they haven't said this specifically to me, I don't believe they have any plans to make them, unless we pay for them ($4000 per mold).

Yup, my KBT Pure has them on and they look and feel super-duper. You can see some pics of them here: http://keypuller.com/penumbra-sa/

With all the SA profile group buys happening you'd think they may be willing to invest in those Shift molds. Perhaps we need to spread the cost over a couple group buys? So we could ask them to include the cost of one mold per GB if people show willingness in the interest check stage for the GB.

With those Row 4 Shift molds made I don't see anything preventing full 1-1-2-3-4-4 sets being produced. Of course the spacebar will remain symmetrical, though, which is as it should be. I hate the sharp edge of the angled DCS spacebar and I don't like the aesthetic of "flipping" it. Imagine the Penumbra top and bottom rows on the Pulse set and you can get an idea of what a true full contour board would look like.

I actually find the Row 3 Shifts and bottom row of Pulse quite nice, the way it makes a flat zone separate from the alphas, but would still prefer full contour. Even 1-1-2-3-4-4 with Row 3 Shifts could look pretty cool, with the mod contour being "delayed" by one row.

Anyway, just my opinions, YMMV, etc, but I thought I'd share.

[Wilba]

Option 1 for me

+1

I agreed with JD's arguments for "fully sculpted" for the Hack'd by Geeks GB, which were the same arguments for Pulse.

It's a pity row 4 on the bottom row isn't an option, but why is row 1 on the top row not an option? i.e. why not 1-1-2-3-4-3?
If it's just for inter-changeability with other row 3 keys, novelties, etc. then I'm OK with that, just curious.

[Matt3o]

With those Row 4 Shift molds made I don't see anything preventing full 1-1-2-3-4-4 sets being produced.

How is it typing or row-4 on the bottom row? Many says that since you use your thumbs on the modifiers it is better to have them flat row-3.

It's a pity row 4 on the bottom row isn't an option, but why is row 1 on the top row not an option? i.e. why not 1-1-2-3-4-3?
If it's just for inter-changeability with other row 3 keys, novelties, etc. then I'm OK with that, just curious.

yes it is mostly for compatibility with novelties.

[Matt3o]

this is NOT final.

just to get feedback! We miss a lot of kits of course. Don't worry I'll put them back.

[MAR82]

this is NOT final.

just to get feedback! We miss a lot of kits of course. Don't worry I'll put them back.

Show Image

I see myself having to spend a lot of money in the near future
And yes, I'm liking the colors  :thumb:

[Lpwl]

ISO support ?
w/ International kit ?

Still dreaming

[Oobly]

With those Row 4 Shift molds made I don't see anything preventing full 1-1-2-3-4-4 sets being produced.

How is it typing or row-4 on the bottom row? Many says that since you use your thumbs on the modifiers it is better to have them flat row-3.

...

The angle is not very much and I find it very nice. I use my pinkie for Ctrl and thumb for the "WinKey" position to actuate my Fn layer. I actually prefer the Row 4 mods on Penumbra to the Row 3 mods on Pulse. Due to their positions my hand position is different than when normally typing and my thumbs are angled to match when they press them. I like the "flat" (symmetrical) spacebar and feel they work well together and I like the look, too.

You should maybe ask more guys with Penumbra and Commando sets to get more opinions on this, though. [EDIT] Also Calm Depths uses semi-matte Row 4 mods.[/EDIT]

Here's a pic of Penumbra that shows the angle well:

this is NOT final.

just to get feedback! We miss a lot of kits of course. Don't worry I'll put them back.

More

Show Image

That's looking super hot! I like it a lot.

I would be very happy if the set came in 1-1-2-3-4-4 with Row 3 Shifts and maybe a possible small GB later for Row 4 Shifts if they ever get made.

[Elrick]

this is NOT final.

just to get feedback! We miss a lot of kits of course. Don't worry I'll put them back.

Show Image

PLEASE make these ones the FINAL propositions.

At first I was happy with just one simple colour-way of Brown but you have once again poured hot-water down my short fronts and burned my nether-region with ever more excellent choices, yet again.

Let us know when this will be posted in the Group Buy section here on Geekhack or SP's Vendor Section.......

[Matt3o]

I know doing this in just one color would be cheaper, but I'm all about options

[Elrick]

I know doing this in just one color would be cheaper, but I'm all about options

My fave is the ESC, F1 to F12 and Print Screen, Screen Lock, Run STOP keys in Orange and subdued Warm Grey, Just fvcking PERFECT  .

It's the small colour-strips that makes this key-set BRILLIANT in every way.

Also Matt, PLEASE include one "Refresh Key" like you've used in the original DSA series, in Green - which I personally use as my F5 web key.  Your design was the first one that made the F5 key that much more pleasurable to use within Firefox.

[Matt3o]

Also Matt, PLEASE include one "Refresh Key" like you've used in the original DSA series, in Green - which I personally use as my F5 web key.  Your design was the first one that made the F5 key that much more pleasurable to use within Firefox.

almost forgot about that! thanks!

[Wilba]

I also love the look of that dark brown for alphas and mods, with just the function row in beige and lime green Esc/Enter.



Would you consider an option of white mods with brown legends (or just an Esc/Enter/Arrows pack)?

Sort of inspired by the black alphas/white mods of the TRS-80:

[Matt3o]

Would you consider an option of white mods with brown legends (or just an Esc/Enter/Arrows pack)?

this might a nice idea. Let's see how many kits we end up with!

[osi]

This may be my first SA set!

[SL89]

As i said on the DT thread. All R3, or Filco-like or Filco-on-steroids makes the most sense for Retro. Also using those options would mean (hopefully) easier inclusion of alternate mods or kits or addons and etc without having to worry so much about international concerns, alternative layouts and profile issues.

[blastoid]

Anyone else interested in having the C64 front-printed symbols? In DSA it wouldn't have really worked, but SA obviously has much more surface area. Can SP even do that?

I also think it would be fantastic to get the original C64 typeface, but that would require new molds and many thousands of dollars. 

[Oobly]

I know the whole set ran with RBC / WAA for the first round, but I think TAA / WCK would better match the original caps (and a more timeless, classic feel). RBC definitely looks too light to my eye, but perhaps you had a good reason for choosing the lighter colour?

Perhaps an option for inverted alphas? I really, really like how WCK alphas with TAA legends would look with TAA mods and WCK legends... drool... I've been thinking of running this colourway as a GB, but it's quite close to Retro colours for the mods and Penumbra solarized for the alphas. If this set runs with the original colours (which I suppose most people expect and want it to) I think I will put together a GB with TAA/WCK at some point in the future.. Perhaps once the Row 4 Shift molds exist... or maybe as part of getting them funded. Problem is there are so many SA profile GB's either running or planned at the moment.

[jdcarpe]

With all the SA profile group buys happening you'd think they may be willing to invest in those Shift molds. Perhaps we need to spread the cost over a couple group buys? So we could ask them to include the cost of one mold per GB if people show willingness in the interest check stage for the GB.

You would think. Unfortunately, they won't do anything on "credit," so what would need to happen is the organizers of the next several SA group buys (not run through PMK) would need to get together and create a fund toward getting the molds made, add a "mold creation fee" to every order in their group buy, and add to the fund until it had built up the $18,000 or whatever is needed to pay for the new molds. The problem there is twofold. First, the organizers have to all agree to do it, and also not to run their buys through PMK. Second, the cost of each set in the GB would necessarily go up to add the fee. If you are like me and BunnyLake, and make one big kit that costs $115-120, how many people would be willing to pay $140 for the same set, just for the prospect of one day in the future having the correct row profile shifts?

[nathanrosspowell]

With all the SA profile group buys happening you'd think they may be willing to invest in those Shift molds. Perhaps we need to spread the cost over a couple group buys? So we could ask them to include the cost of one mold per GB if people show willingness in the interest check stage for the GB.

You would think. Unfortunately, they won't do anything on "credit," so what would need to happen is the organizers of the next several SA group buys (not run through PMK) would need to get together and create a fund toward getting the molds made, add a "mold creation fee" to every order in their group buy, and add to the fund until it had built up the $18,000 or whatever is needed to pay for the new molds. The problem there is twofold. First, the organizers have to all agree to do it, and also not to run their buys through PMK. Second, the cost of each set in the GB would necessarily go up to add the fee. If you are like me and BunnyLake, and make one big kit that costs $115-120, how many people would be willing to pay $140 for the same set, just for the prospect of one day in the future having the correct row profile shifts?

Exactly. And why would they invest when orders for SA sets keep flooding in to them? It's not like the shift molds it would increase the number of GBs that GeekHack would organise.

[Matt3o]

I know the whole set ran with RBC / WAA for the first round, but I think TAA / WCK would better match the original caps (and a more timeless, classic feel). RBC definitely looks too light to my eye, but perhaps you had a good reason for choosing the lighter colour?

The colors will be most likely WCK on TBN, which seems pretty close to the original. RBC is just for those who don't care about the retro aspect and just want a nice color combo.

I might add TBN on GTM mods, which looks pretty cool to me as an alternative.

Anyone else interested in having the C64 front-printed symbols? In DSA it wouldn't have really worked, but SA obviously has much more surface area. Can SP even do that?

I thought about it but that would just make price higher without any real added functionality (apart from vanity). We could side print something like media keys, but we would never agree on where to put them.

[Supergeek]

Is there any way to crowdsource the creation of the shift molds, either in part or total? I don't know what's involved. I mean, there are a lot of skilled people with access to tools and facilities in these forums.

[Matt3o]

Technically feasible, but it would be still $9000 pro-bono. People complain if they get 3 keycaps that they don't use in each and every GB...