Author Topic: [GB] F104+SSK+122+62+77+50+Ergo orders now open! Kishsaver+Industrial Model F  (Read 2460564 times)

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Offline Ellipse

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The shipping container was loaded today!  Over 5 tons!  This is the 5th container shipment of the various keyboard projects.

This time we have all the Model M style F104/FSSK and various other parts and key sets.  The F122 and Round 2 beam spring keyboards will be on the next container shipment in the next couple months once they are completed.

As with the previous container shipments we have some photos of the loading.  This one was too big for the 20' but the 40' container was not completely packed like last time.  Hopefully it will be loaded on a ship departing later this week if all goes well.
« Last Edit: Wed, 26 June 2024, 01:10:47 by Ellipse »

Offline Tempest790

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Yay! Glad to see them finally coming.

Offline Ellipse

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Here's another customer image, this time of the Industrial SSK 12 key set installed on a Unicomp Model M keyboard as well as on an F77 in Industrial Gray:

https://www.reddit.com/r/modelm/comments/16jgdrn/model_m_and_model_f_with_mopar_blue_keys/

Offline Ellipse

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With permission I am posting a nice custom setup of the F15 split ergo keyboard.  There are still a few of these available to order.

Please do keep sharing photos of your new Model F and new Beam Spring setups!  All kinds of custom mod projects are exactly what I am hoping to see more of.

This custom mod setup focuses on making things as solid and with as little movement during operation as possible, tenting the keyboards using custom cut pieces of solid wood so that everything stays in place.  I have copied the description below:

"(1) Tents: Hand / chop saw cut out of 2x8 pine.  Sanded and spray painted black
(2a) Black Rests: Hand / chop saw cut out of 2x4 pine.  1/8 inch board bases.  Glued.  Shaped with a wood shaper tool.  Sanded and spray painted black
(2b) Wood Rests: Hand / chop saw cut out of 2x4 pine.  1/8 inch board bases.  Glued.  Shaped with a wood shaper tool.  Sanded. Stained.  Spray painted lacquer.  Fine sanded and polished.
(3) Keycaps: Mix of Unicomp and New Model F keycaps"
309023-0
309025-1

Offline Ellipse

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APL Key Set Model F XT Quality - draft - combining Unsaver, Model M, and other APL layout styles

As requested, here is the APL key set that I hope to add as an ordering option for the new Model F XT quality key sets.  As with the other key sets like JIS, any front printing has moved to the top of the key.

I have compared several sites (listed below) discussing and showing photos of the various APL layouts and have added some keys to allow for both ANSI and ISO style APL layouts (though the Unicomp ISO Enter key will currently be only available separately).

What is the best color for the APL legends?  I chose an orange that I expect will appear slightly faded or lighter than what is shown here. 

The margins look tight but they will be the same as the Russian-Hebrew-English set posted a while back; a good amount of space on the left and right sides of the key tops.

In terms of alignment I wanted to keep it consistent with Zed's right alignment on various sets including Russian-Hebrew-English, though the originals seem to have mostly been left aligned at a line slightly to the right of center of each key top.

Please let me know if there are any errors or recommended adjustments with this set before the file is sent to the factory for production.

The key sets can be ordered from the Full Key Set product page on the project web site - just pick the APL option as all of them from now on will be this new production set.

https://aplwiki.com/wiki/Dyalog_APL
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=103641.0
https://romilly.github.io/o-x-o/appendix-b.html
https://dfns.dyalog.com/n_keyboards.htm
https://deskthority.net/viewtopic.php?f=62&t=23141
https://aplwiki.com/wiki/Typing_glyphs
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=62543.0
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=94217.0

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« Last Edit: Sun, 21 July 2024, 21:56:28 by Ellipse »

Offline Ellipse

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Updates on today's meetup and potential stolen keyboard:

Nice seeing everyone at today's NYC meetup!  This one was completely sold out with over 250 tickets sold.  It was a nice space that had a good amount of air conditioning which was definitely needed today! 

Someone even brought an IBM Selectric typewriter and plugged it in; it was great to try it out for the first time and compare it to the new beam spring and Model F keyboards.  I was surprised at the high quality of the font/printing - it was about as good as a modern day laser printer!  Manual typewriter letters were fuzzier in my recollection.


Potential stolen keyboard alert - ebay listing:

It appears that this keyboard was one of the keyboards lost by UPS and resold to Cargo Largo.  You may recall they also acquired another "lost" Model F keyboard back in 2020 but after I was made aware of it, they did send it back to me.  Thanks to everyone here for keeping an eye out on the keyboards!

Classic F77 serial 1496

https://www.ebay.com/itm/126595803983

It was not on the previously posted (incomplete) list of stolen/lost keyboards.  This one appears to have been lost by UPS in 2022 (it is the very old style styrofoam packaging from the 2019 and 2021 container shipments).
« Last Edit: Sat, 27 July 2024, 20:05:43 by Ellipse »

Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F104+SSK+122+62+77+50+Ergo orders now open! Kishsaver+Industrial Model F
« Reply #3356 on: Thu, 08 August 2024, 16:02:16 »
One challenge of a product requiring setup and maintenance is that some folks don't think it's worth the effort and they don't want to do any of that even though all sorts of tech products require maintenance and repairs while most others don't last long enough to require it.  I recently had an interesting discussion with someone who wanted a completely setup- and maintenance- free new Model F keyboard and here is part of that discussion, including the challenges of doing that for small production runs with over a thousand possible keyboard variations while keeping pricing as low as possible for everyone.

For those reading this, how have you convinced yourself and others to put in the extra effort and learning needed to get the best of what's out there, whether it is a new Model F or something else?  Has anyone here convinced someone else to get into the world of mechanical keyboards?

Almost all repairs are rather straightforward after checking out the manual and its setup video to see what is expected:  for example, using tweezers to put back a spring that is out of place or damaged or learning how to solder if the ribbon cable needs maintenance.

The question you have to ask yourself:  Is it really worth it to spend ~1 hour or 2 of your time doing something else instead of following a step-by-step video and written manual, if it means you won't be able to maximize typing comfort, speed, and accuracy during 10,000 hours of computer usage over the rest of your life, with a product designed by IBM to do just that?  ~1 hour of work for 10,000 hours of benefit.  For many people, they will avoid that work hour because they currently do not prioritize a "buy it for life" mindset and don't want to check reviews and do the research needed to find the best things in life, whether it is a quality car, camera, computer, computer display, keyboard, vacation plan, etc.  One goal of the project is to help folks learn how a small amount of extra effort results in disproportionately high rewards.

Your current options are to take an hour or so to learn how to set up and maintain a new Model F or for the expected thousands of hours you'll be at your computer over the coming decades to go through a series of keyboards not designed by IBM through years of R&D for comfort, speed, and accuracy.  Under a scenario with everything set up and taken care of for everyone, I would also have to hire local workers to install and test all the keyboards after each custom order is received because there are already hundreds of variations (not counting the dozens of key set options) and only a thousand or so keyboards in each production run (far too small a run to predict, factory install, and stock each needed variation), which is why they can't come from the factory preinstalled.  Regarding requiring no maintenance on your own, we would need service centers and distributors, genius bars, repair personnel, and tech support hotline workers, and everyone would pay a lot more on top of an already expensive keyboard to pay for this overhead (over a smaller order base, as some folks are priced out even with the current pricing), which is not feasible for such a small project as this one.

Would sales be higher or lower in this other market scenario?  IBM had these significant advantages but they were able to charge an inflation-adjusted $800 to $1000 for this product that this new project charges a fraction of that amount, and even IBM/Lexmark couldn't feasibly continue their buckling spring keyboard operations and support decades ago with a thousand-plus times the volume that we have today.  Everyone won't pay more for that convenience with a steep cost, especially when the keyboard is already so costly; only a far smaller number of folks could afford to do that.  The philosophy of this project is that everyone can get repair kits now and learn how to maintain and use a Brand New Model F keyboard long after the project has ended and production has shut down.
« Last Edit: Thu, 08 August 2024, 16:19:58 by Ellipse »

Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F104+SSK+122+62+77+50+Ergo orders now open! Kishsaver+Industrial Model F
« Reply #3357 on: Mon, 12 August 2024, 17:33:04 »
We are just a few weeks away from the delivery of the keyboards from the shipping container!  They are expecting delivery just before month end.

Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F104+SSK+122+62+77+50+Ergo orders now open! Kishsaver+Industrial Model F
« Reply #3358 on: Tue, 13 August 2024, 03:14:52 »
Here's a nice photo from reddit showing a setup with the Industrial Gray F77 Model F keyboard - another great looking desktop setup!

https://www.reddit.com/r/battlestations/comments/1ejbeke/so_i_bought_a_standing_desk_to_put_behind_my/

Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F104+SSK+122+62+77+50+Ergo orders now open! Kishsaver+Industrial Model F
« Reply #3359 on: Mon, 19 August 2024, 20:33:57 »
With permission I am sharing a nice setup with an Industrial Gray F62, the HHKB Front Print Key set, and a trackball:  "the F62 and a Ploopy Adept, both running Vial, connected to a Framework 13 running Arch."
309421-0

Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F104+SSK+122+62+77+50+Ergo orders now open! Kishsaver+Industrial Model F
« Reply #3360 on: Sun, 25 August 2024, 14:05:00 »
Model F bluetooth project success!  Please see the below link - last year someone got their new Model F working with bluetooth.  I have asked the project creator to provide a tutorial and more details.

https://www.reddit.com/r/modelm/comments/yf0lpu/and_here_it_is_the_completed_bluetoothed_new/

There are also two other projects not specific to the Model F that may work but are currently not tested with the Model F:

https://handheldsci.com/kb/

https://sterling-key.com/

Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F104+SSK+122+62+77+50+Ergo orders now open! Kishsaver+Industrial Model F
« Reply #3361 on: Thu, 29 August 2024, 14:21:54 »
Project update: 

The container ship arrived at port this week!  They are now arranging the trucking for hopefully next week if they are available.  As always the first Classic F104 and Classic FSSK keyboards to go out will be those who supported the project a little extra with the low serial/skip the line option, and then it will go out in sequence of when each order was submitted, with the earliest orders going out first.  There are many orders to go out so it may take a month or so if all goes well.  There is still time to send through an upgrade by placing a new order and picking free shipping at checkout to avoid additional shipping charges.

New Old Stock IBM F50 stash update: 

I have just sent out emails to the winners of the first round.  As a reminder you can still be selected for a future round; please head over to the product page and click the Google Forms link to submit your NOS F50 bid.  If you submit soon I will try to get you in for the current round, if the bid is accepted.

https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/product/original-ibm-model-f-metal-case-50-key-f50-keyboard-part-6019273/

https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1QVkCcHxkNwlX9CUsXM5F-8JJZcwBD4yu4RlHRdxBT1Q/

Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F104+SSK+122+62+77+50+Ergo orders now open! Kishsaver+Industrial Model F
« Reply #3362 on: Thu, 05 September 2024, 20:03:40 »
The first of two truckloads of new F104 and FSSK keyboards arrived today!  The new boxes are good so far and arrived in good shape.  They are a little bigger and stack much more nicely.  The foam end caps are also custom to fit the F104 and FSSK profile (this way, the same caps can be used for both models.  The F122 required different outside foam pieces).

I have ordered extra classic case style F104 and FSSK keyboards so that everyone can still add an order in now and get the keyboard with the current batch.

Today I also sent out email reminders to everyone to confirm the delivery address - please check the junk folder if you do not see it.

Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F104+SSK+122+62+77+50+Ergo orders now open! Kishsaver+Industrial Model F
« Reply #3363 on: Fri, 06 September 2024, 20:09:45 »
The second of two truckloads arrived today.  Everything appears to have arrived safe and sound! 

In terms of the timeline from here, I cannot estimate the timeline for any specific order but I hope to get out all the F104/FSSK orders over the next month or two.  You will receive an email with a tracking number once your order is all done.

The current shipment also contains all of the beam spring MX key sets and the transparent relegendable MX keys.

Hopefully around year end the next container ship will be here or on its way here for the next batch, which will contain the F122 and beam spring keyboards.

Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F104+SSK+122+62+77+50+Ergo orders now open! Kishsaver+Industrial Model F
« Reply #3364 on: Sun, 08 September 2024, 19:35:07 »
And now we have the first photos of the keyboards after they have all been stored and organized!  This week shipping is expected to start, with the low serials first.
« Last Edit: Sun, 08 September 2024, 19:39:40 by Ellipse »

Offline Tempest790

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Re: [GB] F104+SSK+122+62+77+50+Ergo orders now open! Kishsaver+Industrial Model F
« Reply #3365 on: Mon, 09 September 2024, 14:07:35 »
Glad to see everything is coming together.

Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F104+SSK+122+62+77+50+Ergo orders now open! Kishsaver+Industrial Model F
« Reply #3366 on: Thu, 12 September 2024, 12:35:20 »
In terms of next steps, next is to approve the beam spring samples, finish the F122 assembly, and some small batch projects like an updated split ortho and Planck style boards, both with Rico's Leyden Jar controller (I hope for UART communication between split halves and PS2 support for the Leyden Jar controller which was being looked into).

The most important thing though is to try to get the word out about these old style keyboards that have already been made - if anyone can help that would be great! Many of the earlier projects' reviewers are waiting for a new model to be sent out.

Any other next ideas?

With permission, I wanted to share another nice setup with a custom coiled USB cable and a powered USB switcher hub that appears to be working well with the F77 (unpowered hubs tend to cause issues). The coiled cable adds a nice touch.

"The mouse is a Lofree PBT Touch, I coiled the cable myself (wrap tightly around wooden dowel, secure with masking tape, treat with a heat gun), and the hub is actually a USB 3 switch to toggle between my PC and Mac. Made by RSH Tech"

309796-0

Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F104+SSK+122+62+77+50+Ergo orders now open! Kishsaver+Industrial Model F
« Reply #3367 on: Tue, 17 September 2024, 23:36:18 »
I have finished taking photos of some of the new F104 and FSSK variations.  I will soon be uploading to the project web site.

Full-resolution photos can be viewed at this imgur album link:  https://imgur.com/a/EIebi75

The first photos in the album are the F104, followed by the FSSK, and finally the most recent beam spring B104 sample.

Below are a few F104 samples:
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« Last Edit: Tue, 17 September 2024, 23:38:49 by Ellipse »

Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F104+SSK+122+62+77+50+Ergo orders now open! Kishsaver+Industrial Model F
« Reply #3368 on: Sun, 22 September 2024, 20:24:59 »
Here is a nice, detailed new Model F review that was posted this week on its own thread:  https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=123701.0

And here's a clear photo of the classic zinc case F62 Kishsaver that was just posted on reddit.  This one has the Mac Text keys installed:
 https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/1ffngxk/model_f_labs_f62_kishsaver/
« Last Edit: Sun, 22 September 2024, 20:29:29 by Ellipse »

Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F104+SSK+122+62+77+50+Ergo orders now open! Kishsaver+Industrial Model F
« Reply #3369 on: Mon, 23 September 2024, 18:47:26 »
Now that Classic F104/Classic FSSK low serial orders have started shipping, just a reminder to check your junk folder in case the shipping confirmation email ends up there.  This has happened a number of times from what folks have told me.

We also have the first videos featuring the new dye sublimated Model F badges!  From the same F62 poster above.  For all models, these badges can be placed on any flat area of the case, whereas the F122 has a recessed spot for a badge.  They are adhesive backed and have a protective clear film on the front which should be removed.

Solenoid disabled: https://www.youtube.com/shorts/fb2Z285ec2k
Solenoid enabled: https://www.youtube.com/shorts/24JguBwS_pI

Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F104+SSK+122+62+77+50+Ergo orders now open! Kishsaver+Industrial Model F
« Reply #3370 on: Thu, 26 September 2024, 19:14:29 »
The first Classic Case F104 keyboard review has been posted over on Deskthority!  Glad that everything is up and running.  I was confused initially as I wasn't sure if that was a Model F or Model M in the photo upon first glance!  It matches nicely with the IBM beige color of the computer.  https://deskthority.net/viewtopic.php?p=520956#p520956

Offline ipilcher

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Re: [GB] F104+SSK+122+62+77+50+Ergo orders now open! Kishsaver+Industrial Model F
« Reply #3371 on: Sat, 05 October 2024, 09:28:28 »
One challenge of a product requiring setup and maintenance is that some folks don't think it's worth the effort and they don't want to do any of that even though all sorts of tech products require maintenance and repairs while most others don't last long enough to require it.  I recently had an interesting discussion with someone who wanted a completely setup- and maintenance- free new Model F keyboard and here is part of that discussion, including the challenges of doing that for small production runs with over a thousand possible keyboard variations while keeping pricing as low as possible for everyone.

For those reading this, how have you convinced yourself and others to put in the extra effort and learning needed to get the best of what's out there, whether it is a new Model F or something else?  Has anyone here convinced someone else to get into the world of mechanical keyboards?

Almost all repairs are rather straightforward after checking out the manual and its setup video to see what is expected:  for example, using tweezers to put back a spring that is out of place or damaged or learning how to solder if the ribbon cable needs maintenance.

The question you have to ask yourself:  Is it really worth it to spend ~1 hour or 2 of your time doing something else instead of following a step-by-step video and written manual, if it means you won't be able to maximize typing comfort, speed, and accuracy during 10,000 hours of computer usage over the rest of your life, with a product designed by IBM to do just that?  ~1 hour of work for 10,000 hours of benefit.  For many people, they will avoid that work hour because they currently do not prioritize a "buy it for life" mindset and don't want to check reviews and do the research needed to find the best things in life, whether it is a quality car, camera, computer, computer display, keyboard, vacation plan, etc.  One goal of the project is to help folks learn how a small amount of extra effort results in disproportionately high rewards.

Your current options are to take an hour or so to learn how to set up and maintain a new Model F or for the expected thousands of hours you'll be at your computer over the coming decades to go through a series of keyboards not designed by IBM through years of R&D for comfort, speed, and accuracy.  Under a scenario with everything set up and taken care of for everyone, I would also have to hire local workers to install and test all the keyboards after each custom order is received because there are already hundreds of variations (not counting the dozens of key set options) and only a thousand or so keyboards in each production run (far too small a run to predict, factory install, and stock each needed variation), which is why they can't come from the factory preinstalled.  Regarding requiring no maintenance on your own, we would need service centers and distributors, genius bars, repair personnel, and tech support hotline workers, and everyone would pay a lot more on top of an already expensive keyboard to pay for this overhead (over a smaller order base, as some folks are priced out even with the current pricing), which is not feasible for such a small project as this one.

Would sales be higher or lower in this other market scenario?  IBM had these significant advantages but they were able to charge an inflation-adjusted $800 to $1000 for this product that this new project charges a fraction of that amount, and even IBM/Lexmark couldn't feasibly continue their buckling spring keyboard operations and support decades ago with a thousand-plus times the volume that we have today.  Everyone won't pay more for that convenience with a steep cost, especially when the keyboard is already so costly; only a far smaller number of folks could afford to do that.  The philosophy of this project is that everyone can get repair kits now and learn how to maintain and use a Brand New Model F keyboard long after the project has ended and production has shut down.

I am one of those people who placed my order (classic F104) without really knowing about the DIY aspects of the project.  I'm sticking with it (and eagerly anticipating its arrival), even though I was kind of shocked when I read the setup manual and watched the video.  I can honestly say, though, that I'm only doing this because my negative experiences with Unicomp's build quality.

And I have to disagree with the idea that (re)soldering the ribbon cable connection is straightforward.  I've done a small amount of soldering in my life, and I've never been able to achieve very good control.  I really doubt that I would be able to resolder any of those connections without shorting something.

That said, I can appreciate the challenges that would come with a more "plug and play" experience.  The only suggestion I can provide would be to add an additional paid option that would include key installation, more testing, and possibly additional packaging during shipping.

Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F104+SSK+122+62+77+50+Ergo orders now open! Kishsaver+Industrial Model F
« Reply #3372 on: Sat, 05 October 2024, 15:47:49 »
Thanks for your feedback ipilcher.  No one should be afraid of the setup video and manual, as they cover every possible issue that may come up, which is not what will typically happen with each keyboard.  Based on what I am seeing, nearly 100% of keyboards from the most recent years only need a few spring reinstallations and firmware update at the worst, no soldering or complete disassembly, but I would not worry if you have limited soldering experience.  Soldering the ribbon cable is not difficult at all, since you just need to fill the through hole with solder if it does not have enough.  This was more of an issue with the very first batch, but factory QC corrected this issue years ago.  You do not need precision to solder any components to PCBs or anything like that.  The through holes for the ribbon cable have a good amount of distance between them so you can easily spot a solder bridge by eye and remove it quickly.

Sorry that there is no time to spend an hour setting up keyboards as I ship thousands of them, nor am I able to hire staff to do this for the reasons discussed on the forums over the past few years. See some postings on this topic below:

"Project Philosophy: Full user control of product maintenance and repairs
Goal:  the best quality product at the lowest price point, with a focus on the end user being able to stockpile spare parts as well as set up and fix their Brand New Model F. There are definitely markets for hardware with service contracts. Not sure about a market for a +$100 more costly keyboard with full maintenance and technical support though. IBM’s 1980s price guides mentioned they would require charging banking customers a minimum of about $100 per year (not adjusted for inflation) for each original Model F keyboard in maintenance costs as part of a service contract. However, if I had to hire staff to deal with “free” returns, more personalized technical support / phone support, and doing even the most minor repairs (re-seating keys, replacing springs and barrels, changing the USB cable, etc.), each keyboard would cost a lot more because of overhead costs, and these keyboards are already not inexpensive to begin with. And it would slow me down even further mailing out these great keyboards. I believe that this direct to consumer, community type project is the best way to bring the Model F to as many people as possible and at the lowest possible cost."

"The project philosophy statement in the manual explains why there is no service contract option with a full staff to handle returns, exchanges, repairs, technical support, etc. and instead keeping the keyboard as low a cost as possible, about half what IBM charged (adjusted for inflation). There is an emphasis on teaching everyone to be able to set up and maintain their new Model F keyboards long after the project is done, so that they can hopefully use it for decades to come."

"A discussion on the project’s philosophy, “buy it for life” and a repair mindset

You can definitely recommend a Model F to friends and family members even though it requires maintenance to keep it running, hopefully for many more years. Paying for the parts alone as part of the first aid repair kit or separately is far less costly than paying a repair shop for parts and labor or discarding the product entirely when one part breaks. These keyboards are fully repairable and can be fully disassembled with just screwdrivers and pliers, unlike many other keyboards. The main philosophy of the project is to encourage users to learn how to take control of the repairs and maintenance of their keyboards, one benefit of which is to allow the keyboards to be priced as low as possible and to avoid the need for repair and phone staff."

Offline enthdegree

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Re: [GB] F104+SSK+122+62+77+50+Ergo orders now open! Kishsaver+Industrial Model F
« Reply #3373 on: Sun, 06 October 2024, 12:50:40 »
Has anyone had success re-painting the ultra-compact cases with quality comparable to the original paint job?

Offline liquidvel

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Re: [GB] F104+SSK+122+62+77+50+Ergo orders now open! Kishsaver+Industrial Model F
« Reply #3374 on: Sun, 06 October 2024, 16:13:17 »
Will there be a restock of "F62 Model F Keyboard" in Beige with HHKB and split backspace? I didn't know about this brand until today and I really love it that you offer HHKB style!! Will the restock be more expensive than 199,-?

Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F104+SSK+122+62+77+50+Ergo orders now open! Kishsaver+Industrial Model F
« Reply #3375 on: Sun, 06 October 2024, 23:37:32 »
Unfortunately the beige classic style F62 was the first to go out of stock as the original new Model F project winds down.  Other models are running low as well.  I recommend the ultra compact beige F62 if you must have beige and do not want to paint it yourself, or just pick any of the other remaining colors.

Offline liquidvel

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Re: [GB] F104+SSK+122+62+77+50+Ergo orders now open! Kishsaver+Industrial Model F
« Reply #3376 on: Mon, 07 October 2024, 10:48:49 »
Won't there be any restock at all? Will you release new models?

Offline ipilcher

  • Posts: 5
Re: [GB] F104+SSK+122+62+77+50+Ergo orders now open! Kishsaver+Industrial Model F
« Reply #3377 on: Mon, 07 October 2024, 14:31:50 »
Thanks for your feedback ipilcher.  No one should be afraid of the setup video and manual, as they cover every possible issue that may come up, which is not what will typically happen with each keyboard.  Based on what I am seeing, nearly 100% of keyboards from the most recent years only need a few spring reinstallations and firmware update at the worst, no soldering or complete disassembly, but I would not worry if you have limited soldering experience.  Soldering the ribbon cable is not difficult at all, since you just need to fill the through hole with solder if it does not have enough.  This was more of an issue with the very first batch, but factory QC corrected this issue years ago.  You do not need precision to solder any components to PCBs or anything like that.  The through holes for the ribbon cable have a good amount of distance between them so you can easily spot a solder bridge by eye and remove it quickly.

That was my hope, so it's good to hear it confirmed.

Sorry that there is no time to spend an hour setting up keyboards as I ship thousands of them, nor am I able to hire staff to do this for the reasons discussed on the forums over the past few years. See some postings on this topic below:

No need to apologize.  It's just very, very different from any other keyboard purchase that I've ever made.

"The project philosophy statement in the manual explains why there is no service contract option with a full staff to handle returns, exchanges, repairs, technical support, etc. and instead keeping the keyboard as low a cost as possible, about half what IBM charged (adjusted for inflation). There is an emphasis on teaching everyone to be able to set up and maintain their new Model F keyboards long after the project is done, so that they can hopefully use it for decades to come."

Understood.  I hadn't actually read that when I placed my order.

You can definitely recommend a Model F to friends and family members even though it requires maintenance to keep it running, hopefully for many more years. Paying for the parts alone as part of the first aid repair kit or separately is far less costly than paying a repair shop for parts and labor or discarding the product entirely when one part breaks. These keyboards are fully repairable and can be fully disassembled with just screwdrivers and pliers, unlike many other keyboards. The main philosophy of the project is to encourage users to learn how to take control of the repairs and maintenance of their keyboards, one benefit of which is to allow the keyboards to be priced as low as possible and to avoid the need for repair and phone staff."

I'm the only person among my family, friends, coworkers, and acquaintances that even knows that mechanical keyboards exist.  For the vast majority of people, they're simply something that you buy for $25 at Best Buy or Amazon and replace when it stops working a few years later.

All of that said, though, I appreciate the response, and I do (now) understand both the philosophy of the project and the reasons that it is different.  I thought it would be useful to present a perspective from outside of the keyboard enthusiast community, but I'm certainly not expecting you to make any changes, nor do you have to justify the the manner in which the project works.

Offline enthdegree

  • Posts: 17
Re: [GB] F104+SSK+122+62+77+50+Ergo orders now open! Kishsaver+Industrial Model F
« Reply #3378 on: Wed, 09 October 2024, 19:31:04 »
Is there any way to lower the capsense threshold, or get analog readings from the sensing mechanism?

My F62 seems extremely sensitive to dust. Plugging it in after a few months I found several keys didn't register properly in spite of being well-seated. Re-seating, re-plugging in the keyboard several times didn't fix it, blasting the barrels with a rocket blower fixed it.

Offline Ellipse

  • Thread Starter
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  • Location: New York
    • Brand New Model F Keyboards
Re: [GB] F104+SSK+122+62+77+50+Ergo orders now open! Kishsaver+Industrial Model F
« Reply #3379 on: Wed, 09 October 2024, 20:11:48 »
I believe you are the only person to report that.  I recommend updating to the latest firmware in the manual's zip file, as you may be using a very old firmware.  The new firmware options fix threshold issues.  Also your controller ground screws may need to be loosened and then tightened.

Did you buy it secondhand?  Over the years I have seen a number of damaged or poorly handled boards being sold, and a good amount of the secondhand boards being sold have been damaged in some way and not disclosed as such.  These are all repairable though - at the worst you can order a replacement factory assembled USB-C controller+PCB as I have a bunch of those available.

Offline Ellipse

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  • Location: New York
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Re: [GB] F104+SSK+122+62+77+50+Ergo orders now open! Kishsaver+Industrial Model F
« Reply #3380 on: Tue, 15 October 2024, 14:05:50 »
Here is the draft Mac F1-F15 set, designed to match the legends style of Apple's keyboard.  Please let me know your feedback:

310512-0

Offline Tempest790

  • Posts: 138
Re: [GB] F104+SSK+122+62+77+50+Ergo orders now open! Kishsaver+Industrial Model F
« Reply #3381 on: Wed, 23 October 2024, 08:02:59 »
Finally arrived! And, I quickly messed up even though I watched the video and read through the instructions. I started putting the plugs in and yep put the white plugs in the wrong location. Uggh. I'm not going to try to disassemble the back plate since it really looks hard to take apart. I ordered some extra white plugs since I only had 1 spare anyway. I have several black plugs so that's good. I'll try the 1/4-20 tap to remove them which should arrive tomorrow.

I started putting the key caps on and testing them. So far, everything sounds fantastic! I haven't plugged it in yet and setup the firmware until I get all of the keys set correctly.

Update: The tool came, and I successfully switched the stabilizer plugs. Everything seems set up now.



The right Windows key doesn't seem to do anything. It sounds and clicks fine when I press it. Not sure what it's mapped as. The Signal Monitor show it's functioning fine though. Windows Powertoys Key Manager didn't see it as anything though.



Update: A guy on Reddit explained it was the Fn key used in combination with various Function keys like F11 for volume down.

I'm up 100% now!
« Last Edit: Fri, 25 October 2024, 17:58:59 by Tempest790 »

Offline ipilcher

  • Posts: 5
Re: [GB] F104+SSK+122+62+77+50+Ergo orders now open! Kishsaver+Industrial Model F
« Reply #3382 on: Mon, 28 October 2024, 11:02:43 »
Update: A guy on Reddit explained it was the Fn key used in combination with various Function keys like F11 for volume down.

Did you find the Fn key combinations documented anywhere?  I haven't been able to find them.

Offline Ellipse

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  • Location: New York
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Re: [GB] F104+SSK+122+62+77+50+Ergo orders now open! Kishsaver+Industrial Model F
« Reply #3383 on: Mon, 28 October 2024, 12:29:18 »
Tempest790 the Fn key note was specifically mentioned in the manual, which is why I recommend that everyone reads the manual fully before starting to set up their keyboard (not only watching the setup video due to the extra content in the manual), to minimize confusion and wasted time. 

The Fn keys, keymappings, and layers can be found and customized by going into the Vial program or going to the web site vial.rocks from a Chrome-based browser or other supported browser.

Offline Tempest790

  • Posts: 138
Re: [GB] F104+SSK+122+62+77+50+Ergo orders now open! Kishsaver+Industrial Model F
« Reply #3384 on: Mon, 28 October 2024, 14:10:08 »
Did you find the Fn key combinations documented anywhere?  I haven't been able to find them.

A guy on Reddit posted some of them. I miss the direct volume controls from my Topre keyboard that had them.
  Fn+F10 = Mute
  Fn+F11 = Volume Down
  Fn+F12 = Volume Up

Those are the main ones I wanted to know.

Update:
I took a screenshot of the Function key layer.


« Last Edit: Mon, 28 October 2024, 15:39:11 by Tempest790 »

Offline pupmonster

  • Posts: 24
Re: [GB] F104+SSK+122+62+77+50+Ergo orders now open! Kishsaver+Industrial Model F
« Reply #3385 on: Tue, 29 October 2024, 09:59:54 »
I have a new FSSK keyboard with the classic case. Everything was perfect out of the box except for one spring, which I managed to fix, though I did ruin one spare in the process. Thanks, Ellipse!

On my keyboard, I’ve maximized the number of keys available by using a split backspace, split right shift, and split spacebar. The split spacebar allows for a configuration with four keys to the right of it. However, I can’t figure out the correct key sizes. I either end up with (larger-ish) gaps between the keys or a gap to the right of the last key. Can anyone tell me the correct order and sizes of the keys to the right of the spacebar in this setup?






Offline Ellipse

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  • Location: New York
    • Brand New Model F Keyboards
Re: [GB] F104+SSK+122+62+77+50+Ergo orders now open! Kishsaver+Industrial Model F
« Reply #3386 on: Tue, 29 October 2024, 12:33:15 »
With the smaller spacebar, there will be a small gap of about 1mm for one key to the right of the spacebar; this gap is larger than the gaps between the other keys.  I believe you can set the keys to the right of the spacebar to 1.25U-1.5U-1U-1.5U but I also think it is possible to do  1.5U-1.25U-1U-1.5U.

Offline pupmonster

  • Posts: 24
Re: [GB] F104+SSK+122+62+77+50+Ergo orders now open! Kishsaver+Industrial Model F
« Reply #3387 on: Tue, 29 October 2024, 15:38:04 »
Thanks, I think your proposal is the best fit. There is a bit of a gap to the right of the spacebar but I prefer that larger-ish gap there than between the keys.

Offline pupmonster

  • Posts: 24
Re: [GB] F104+SSK+122+62+77+50+Ergo orders now open! Kishsaver+Industrial Model F
« Reply #3388 on: Wed, 30 October 2024, 22:34:17 »
I have two older Model Fs that were not flashed with the Via-compatible firmware. I feel I need to move to Via because the QMK configurator website for Model F keyboards remains in beta and I am concerned about long-term sustainability of that site. (kudos to the maker of that site, by the way.)

Reading the manual I see that the firmware files are located in the folder firmwares and identified by "newf[keyboardDesignation]-vial-0p4p1_r[number].hex" in the file name.

To my questions:

- Flashing the appropriate file identifiable via the naming convention to the keyboard would make the keyboard configurable with Via, correct?
- Is my understanding correct that these files will also work with these older keyboards?
- Do I choose the highest "r" value?

Example: for F77 (I have serial number 23, so it must be the earliest hardware) I would flash using the file "newf77-vial-0p4p1_r5.hex"?

Thanks!
« Last Edit: Wed, 30 October 2024, 22:36:56 by pupmonster »

Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F104+SSK+122+62+77+50+Ergo orders now open! Kishsaver+Industrial Model F
« Reply #3389 on: Wed, 30 October 2024, 22:38:45 »
You would flash the bat file corresponding to the keyboard mapping and layout that you have.