Why you should stay away from wireless peripherals / wireless in general

[KHAANNN]

You see a lot of people complain about wifi issues, some of these issues go unsolved

There are also lot's of issues with wireless peripherals, some of these go unsolved, you see lot's of posts online about various wifi/rf issues

There is always the claim that bluetooth/wifi/2.4ghz combinations don't interfere enough to affect functionality, yet this is obviously not the case

The actual reason I started this thread is to share this paper: http://www.intel.com/content/dam/www/public/us/en/documents/white-papers/usb3-frequency-interference-paper.pdf

It's a nice study on how even the USB 3.0 data transfer protocol can mess with wireless signals, this paper was the solution to my wireless peripheral issues a while ago, I thought I would share

Now even though I've taken precautions, I still experience minor rf issues with my Logitech G602 occasionally (very rare), even though it's 20cm's away form it's receiver, isolated from other cables/devices and there are no other rf devices/wifi usage left

I think a mouse should be wireless, as it's a moving peripheral and it moves easily with no wires, yet if I wasn't obsessed with desk simplicity, I would also go ahead and get a wired mouse too

[heedpantsnow]

You see a lot of people complain about wifi issues, some of these issues go unsolved

There are also lot's of issues with wireless peripherals, some of these go unsolved, you see lot's of posts online about various wifi/rf issues

There is always the claim that bluetooth/wifi/2.4ghz combinations don't interfere enough to affect functionality, yet this is obviously not the case

The actual reason I started this thread is to share this paper: http://www.intel.com/content/dam/www/public/us/en/documents/white-papers/usb3-frequency-interference-paper.pdf

It's a nice study on how even the USB 3.0 data transfer protocol can mess with wireless signals, this paper was the solution to my wireless peripheral issues a while ago, I thought I would share

Now even though I've taken precautions, I still experience minor rf issues with my Logitech G602 occasionally (very rare), even though it's 20cm's away form it's receiver, isolated from other cables/devices and there are no other rf devices/wifi usage left

I think a mouse should be wireless, as it's a moving peripheral and it moves easily with no wires, yet if I wasn't obsessed with desk simplicity, I would also go ahead and get a wired mouse too

Spot on. Minimize wireless peripherals to minimize possibilities of interference. My Surface Pro has awful issues using 5GHz wifi + BT.

I also try to just go ahead and use a network cable when possible. Though not always practical.

[GenKaan]

As a gamer I dont trust or want to be dependent on wireless mice/keyboards when I play. Had it in the past and sure it's convenient but when batteries die and you lose/die due to it I tend to throw them away the instant that happens.

When I play fighting games I cant have any delay. Trying to hit one frame links (1/60th of a second margin) the slightest delay can mess up my combo. Playing a low health character one dropped combo can result in me losing ~50%, something I cant afford.

As far as Wifi goes its kinda useless to me. When I pay for 100/100 mbits I dont want to waste 90% of it in losses over the air. The lack of trust I have for wireless keyboard/mice is increased 100 fold when it comes to internet connection. Its super easy to detect when you play someone who play over Wifi (especially in fighting games) and when I find out, I quit and find someone else because its not playable. Even on a good Wifi connection

I do use a wireless mouse at work and its really nice. But I dont trust it even while doing office stuff

[Bucake]

wired usb 2.0 all the way

[daerid]

I generally stick with wired, but for work I can't beat my Logitech G602, it's amazing. Only wireless peripheral used, and I haven't experienced any interference issues with it yet.

[ideus]

Wireless mice are very practical, if you are not concerned with tiny delays. As the paper states USB 3 causes some interference with wireless 2.5. I cannot say either as I am still working with a computer that only has USB 2.

[davkol]

How are wireless mice practical? I've never understood this. Cables have never been an issue since I have a a bungee above the tray. If the surface is small, unstable, messy, whatever..., I use a trackball.

[fknraiden]

Never had any issues with my Logitech g602 either

[smknjoe]

Don't forget that 2.4Ghz devices are also very susceptible to microwave interference.

[MykB77]

Running both a RAT 9 and G700s.   RAT has hot swap battery... no down issues there, amazing tracking except for occasional dust spec.  G700s needs micro usb when tired, bit of a pain but amazing when charged; absolutely no lag.  Never had any interference issues.  Would never use wifi for network though.

[IvanIvanovich]

I also have a Logitech g700. I definitely prefer wireless mice. I find it can be tricky to find wired mice with acceptable cable. Too many are too stiff (the cable the g700 came with is absolutely awful in that regard too), or too thin which get tangled easier. Bad cable creates drag, and can impede my motion. Anyway, I can't say I have noticed any problems since upgrading to a motherboard that has onboard usb 3.0. I don't use much usb 3 devices though, just an external hdd currently. Very rarely I use a flash drive, but I generally use the case front ports then anyway. But maybe the ports are far enough away from each other, basically at opposite ends of the io ports on the rear from the usb 2 I have the mouse transceiver in.
I can say that the mouse is quite perceptible to wifi though. I have my router sitting right under the PC and if I ever turn on the wifi the mouse gets really flaky with tracking.

[Oobly]

And this is on of the reasons the only "wireless" device on our house is our WiFi router, for use with our phones and sometimes my laptop. Another reason is power saving standby / wake-up lag on peripherals. Everything wired, unless it's for a portable device.

[Nai_Calus]

I only use wireless anything for the internet connection on my cellphone since I live in the middle of nowhere and half the time can't even make/receive phone calls, let alone data.

My dad got me a wireless headset last year for my birthday and I feel bad because I only used it for a couple of months before getting a set of decent wired headphones. I still use it occasionally if I need voice chat in something, but the quality was only OK and it dropped the connection a lot, especially every time dad used the microwave in the kitchen(Which isn't anywhere near my computer, but), and the battery life was seriously lacking. (Logitech G930)

Mice, keyboards, computer internet, hell no, all that's on wires. Our ISP is terrible even without throwing balky wi-fi on top of it. And no, I am not going to put up with changing or charging batteries in my keyboard/mouse, or balky drop-prone connections with them.

If it doesn't have a cord it's not worth using. I have never had a corded mouse tangle or snag on things. What are you using as a desk, your cat? The kitchen table covered in the last three years worth of papers? Get a real desk, route your crap properly, you will never have issues ever.

Unless you have a cord-chewing cat, but I've found braided cables dissuade mine from that habit.

[Kamen Rider Blade]

I have a Logitech G602, I've never had wireless issues, ever

[ideus]

I have been a happy user of wireless mice for years, with no issues whatsoever; in the other hand, my keyboards have been wired always.

[noisyturtle]

I've lost far too many lives in video games over the years to put full trust in any wireless preferable. Why do they seem to work so well for video game consoles, but the PC market can't seem to make a wireless mouse or keyboard that lasts more than 5-6 hrs and doesn't have a spotty connection. I will never understand why it's seemingly so difficult, but in my experience the PC market still can't get the technology to work flawlessly yet.

[v6ak]

My reason #1 against wireless input devices is security There are multiple issues:

1. Is the transfer properly encrypted?
2. Does the crypto use a cryptographically secure RNG? (Well, contained in #1, but I wanted to stress this extra. Bad RNG can flaw the entire cryptography.)
3. Are these devices properly authenticated? That is, once I pair my keyboard with my laptop, can anyone impersonate the keyboard and control my laptop? Is the initial pairing done correctly?
4. Bonus for keyboards: Is the protocol immune to side channel attacks, especially to timing attacks? This seems to be impossible to solve without polling. Heavy polling would be likely a battery hogger, while not-so-frequent polling would cause a significant latency.

Pointing devices: While I hope it is feasible (but hard) to do correctly #1, #2 and #3, I've seen no plausible evidence that it is taken seriously. While I might accept some wireless pointing device, I would want to know more about its security.

Keyboards: I don't think it is even possible to solve #4 without some heavy costs in latency or energy efficiency. I am very unlikely to buy a wireless keyboard any time.

[heedpantsnow]

My reason #1 against wireless input devices is security There are multiple issues:

1. Is the transfer properly encrypted?
2. Does the crypto use a cryptographically secure RNG? (Well, contained in #1, but I wanted to stress this extra. Bad RNG can flaw the entire cryptography.)
3. Are these devices properly authenticated? That is, once I pair my keyboard with my laptop, can anyone impersonate the keyboard and control my laptop? Is the initial pairing done correctly?
4. Bonus for keyboards: Is the protocol immune to side channel attacks, especially to timing attacks? This seems to be impossible to solve without polling. Heavy polling would be likely a battery hogger, while not-so-frequent polling would cause a significant latency.

Pointing devices: While I hope it is feasible (but hard) to do correctly #1, #2 and #3, I've seen no plausible evidence that it is taken seriously. While I might accept some wireless pointing device, I would want to know more about its security.

Keyboards: I don't think it is even possible to solve #4 without some heavy costs in latency or energy efficiency. I am very unlikely to buy a wireless keyboard any time.

5. Do I have my tinfoil hat on and does it fit properly?

In all seriousness, I have a bit of experience in infosec and really, if you're simply using a computer then it's likely someone can snoop you, whether through hardware HID logging, tempest attacks, or breaking your fingers until you give up your passwords.

If you are so worried that you want encrypted peripherals, then you really shouldn't be on the Internet at all or be using unvetted hardware. You should be in a windowless vault with no car keys, phones, or coffee mugs allowed.

[SamirD]

Reliability.  Wired works--always.  Or it doesn't.  I don't want to have to deal with a wireless gizmo 'feeling' like not working today vs yesterday.

Internet--wired.  Phone headset--wired.  Mouse--wired.  Keyboard--wired (and ps2). 

[Elrick]

Reliability.  Wired works--always.  Or it doesn't.  I don't want to have to deal with a wireless gizmo 'feeling' like not working today vs yesterday.

Internet--wired.  Phone headset--wired.  Mouse--wired.  Keyboard--wired (and ps2).

So true, you need a cable connection ALWAYS if you want 100% reliability here.

If you are only playing around on your PC then go play with the wireless fairies and pray they don't drop your connection anytime soon  .

[Chromako]

The main reason: Batteries. Build in Lithium batteries die permanently after three years, give or take, and are difficult to replace giving your device a limited lifespan by design (I hate that!), and NiMH ones require frequent recharging, for example, I'm lucky to get 8-10 hours from the NiMH's in my Ourobouros mouse (not so bad if your mouse has a charging dock, which the Ourobouros does, but not many do, which is stupid for how much some of them cost). And Alkaline batteries... heh... don't make me laugh, oh gods of Total Cost of Ownership.

For things that move a lot, like, I dunno, mice, wireless is handy, and some actually come with charging docks and user replaceable batteries. Yay. Tangled mouse cables have caused me to wipe our MMORPG raids numerous times. That's embarrassing and I changed to wireless mice for gaming (to be clear, I only use mice for gaming). But for everything else, it's about the batteries. Why is a cable leading to your keyboard, trackball, flightstick, or Wacom tablet, which doesn't move during normal operations, a bad thing? And why should I have to keep track the battery remaining life percentile or charge cycles on something that shouldn't even need batteries?

I have a similar rant about smart-watches. Not until they last a week. I want at least one portable device in my life that I don't have to feed electricity to every single night, thank you very much.

As for networking.... well... Gigabit Ethernet might be almost 20 years old, but it's still waaaaay faster than the practical implementations of any consumer wireless networking. And if you live in apartments, way less glitchy.

Now, if they made a desk surface that was itself a large inductive charger (and safe to use for extended periods of time- I'm waiting to hear this from a non-industry-sponsored peer reviewed article, thank you very much) , and inductive charging was actually common on devices, now we'd be talking.

[Melvang]

The only time I can see wireless peripherals is for a HTPC.  The only reason my PS3 is still on WIFI is because I am not 100% sure that is where it is going to stay and want to minimize holes in the floor.

[tbc]

to this day, i still can't understand how someone can hate wireless yet use a smartphone...

[Findecanor]

Bluetooth keyboards and mice use a subset of the USB HID protocol - low speed USB.

BT is also not particularly secure - your key presses can be logged.... maybe not in real-time but the encryption is considered to be very weak. I heard that Apple does not allow even their own Bluetooth keyboards to be used at Apple HQ because of the security risk.

I think a mouse should be wireless, as it's a moving peripheral and it moves easily with no wires, yet if I wasn't obsessed with desk simplicity, I would also go ahead and get a wired mouse too

I wish there was more competition in tablets now, so that they would be cheaper and not just from Wacom.  (There was for a while what looked like it could be a serious competitor but Microsoft bought it so that they would produce pens only for MS Surface.  )

Then you could have wireless mice that you wouldn't have to replace batteries in or charge. Only the "mousepad" would be wired.
(I have also got an idea for the design of a mouse-pen that I would like to build some day...)

[tbc]

you're doing security wrong if you don't smash/melt your ram, hdd/ssd, and cpu every time you leave your workstation.

i am NOT kidding.  that is actually the standard for 'complete' security.

[henz]

call me old fashioned, but i use cables for everything , keyboards, mouses, ethernet etc.Only use wifi when i have to, phone/ ipad etc.

[Bucake]

call me old fashioned, but i use cables for everything , keyboards, mouses, ethernet etc.Only use wifi when i have to, phone/ ipad etc.

damn straight!

[Findecanor]

I use only wired phones.

[Tiramisuu]

This simply does not align with reality.   Wireless peripherals work and the flexibility and tidings they provide in configuring your desktop /work space is freeing.

I  can't think of a good use case for wired peripherals over wireless.
Geekhack is attractive to all kinds of ocd and mine is on clean and functional over fixation on problems that do not exist.

Each to their own obsession of coarse.

[davkol]

This simply does not align with reality.   Wireless peripherals work and the flexibility and tidings they provide in configuring your desktop /work space is freeing.

I  can't think of a good use case for wired peripherals over wireless.
Geekhack is attractive to all kinds of ocd and mine is on clean and functional over fixation on problems that do not exist.

Each to their own obsession of coarse.

g.g.

Excellent demonstration of Poe's law.

[Bucake]

This simply does not align with reality.   Wireless peripherals work and the flexibility and tidings they provide in configuring your desktop /work space is freeing.

I  can't think of a good use case for wired peripherals over wireless.
Geekhack is attractive to all kinds of ocd and mine is on clean and functional over fixation on problems that do not exist.

Each to their own obsession of coarse.

depends on what you do.
if you want low input lag and solid reliability, you know you can count on wired.
wireless mice tend to be heavier, have more input lag and have lower polling rate. and i don't even know if there even is one that has a strong optical sensor.

for anything requiring precision and low input lag (games, photoshop) i'd always go for wired.
i dig wireless just as much, but i'll only switch to it when i want to hang on my couch, and just do some browsing or something.

you can still kick ass with wireless, but the fact is that there is a difference.
not everyone notices or cares about the difference, but plenty do.
it's not so much about needing, but more so about comfort, reliability and simply having the edge. and that edge might be small, but it's there.
the only actual downside of wired mice is the cable, which obviously isn't too much of a problem for most people.

so yeah.. it's just preference, and depends on what you do with your computer.

[robscomputer]

I use a wireless mouse with my laptop due to saving space in my backpack, I opt for wired when I can. The wires don't bother me much as I can route them through the keyboard. The biggest benefit to wired is the reduced latency. With every wireless mouse I've tried, they always had latency. While it's getting better than the old wireless, it's still annoying, making you feel like you're mouse cursor is on ice, slipping past the "stop" point.

It's getting tougher as more companies are moving towards wireless.

[Custom101]

I agree. Definitely not a fan of wireless peripherals. Didn't stop me from buying the new Logitech MX Master mouse though lol. It comes with a USB charging cable though and can be used while plugged in all the time so I don't really think of it as wireless. Just hoping that the rechargeable battery doesn't die because I'm not even sure if it can be removed..

[suby4me]

I don't mind wireless mice, but keyboards are another story. While I do prefer wired mice, I think the best wireless mouse was the logitech g7. I really loved that mouse and used it for all my needs in my undergrad. I used it from gaming, regular browsing, graphic design, 3d animation, and so on. I think the best aspect of that mouse was that it came with 2 li-ion battery backs. It was real easy to swap, even during intense fps matches. It almost felt like reloading a real weapon lol. Hit the switch on the bottom, battery shoots out, slap the new one in, good to go. Then I just jam the other battery in the charger. You get real fast swapping out the batteries.

The mouse still works even today 

[jukaduke1184]

I have multiple wireless devices in close vicinity. Never had any problems.

[SamirD]

...go play with the wireless fairies...

HAHAHA!  I always use the 'fairies' terminology when my wife starts talking about all her wireless apple stuff.  )

[FoxWolf1]

Some wireless use cases I can relate to, some I can't.

A lot of the support for wireless seems to be just a matter of form over function-- you get a neater-looking area at the cost of having to worry about battery replacements or recharging, latency, and interference. I think that people sometimes forget that a "functional appearance" is still an appearance and not actual functionality, and trading functionality for a neat, clean, "functional" look is just as much a case of form over function as trading functionality for "bling."

On the other hand, I can see the point for stuff like wired keyboards with secondary wireless modes (like a Matias One, KBT Pro, etc.)-- being able to send text to other devices (phone, tablet, etc.) straight from your desktop keyboard, without having to get up, plug anything in, etc. seems like it could be pretty convenient, especially for the younger generation (who seem to need to send a text every five seconds no matter where they are or what they're doing). Or if you have a computer that you want to be able to control from across the room when not doing anything demanding, it would make sense to use a wireless peripheral for that. And I'm sure there are other uses of this sort...

[SamirD]

Some wireless use cases I can relate to, some I can't.

A lot of the support for wireless seems to be just a matter of form over function-- you get a neater-looking area at the cost of having to worry about battery replacements or recharging, latency, and interference. I think that people sometimes forget that a "functional appearance" is still an appearance and not actual functionality, and trading functionality for a neat, clean, "functional" look is just as much a case of form over function as trading functionality for "bling."

On the other hand, I can see the point for stuff like wired keyboards with secondary wireless modes (like a Matias One, KBT Pro, etc.)-- being able to send text to other devices (phone, tablet, etc.) straight from your desktop keyboard, without having to get up, plug anything in, etc. seems like it could be pretty convenient, especially for the younger generation (who seem to need to send a text every five seconds no matter where they are or what they're doing). Or if you have a computer that you want to be able to control from across the room when not doing anything demanding, it would make sense to use a wireless peripheral for that. And I'm sure there are other uses of this sort...

I blame Apple for all the 'form over function' found in a lot of electronics today.  There is some good function=form stuff like the all aluminum heat-sink laptop body, but the thinking that wires are somehow ugly and bad sounds like something a woman would say.  I mean, it's a machine--it's not supposed to be pretty--it's supposed to do its job.  For me, once a machine can't do its job, it's useless to me no matter how good it looks except as some form of art.

That's really cool those keyboards have those dual modes.  I was just thinking about getting a separate bt keyboard so that I can type texts faster (text is how I communicate with all our employees these days--amazing how things have changed), but having a single kb to replace my IBM M that can do both would be awesome.  Any others besides the Matias One and KBT Pro?  I'd really like a feel close to the IBM M with a numeric keypad (I do a lot of numbers), but I'm sure I can get used to a Cherry feel.

[FoxWolf1]

That's really cool those keyboards have those dual modes.  I was just thinking about getting a separate bt keyboard so that I can type texts faster (text is how I communicate with all our employees these days--amazing how things have changed), but having a single kb to replace my IBM M that can do both would be awesome.  Any others besides the Matias One and KBT Pro?  I'd really like a feel close to the IBM M with a numeric keypad (I do a lot of numbers), but I'm sure I can get used to a Cherry feel.

Yes, there are various others: Jaki JB002 and JB001, Zippy BW7050 (basically the same as KBT Pro), and Filco Majestouch Convertible 2 come to mind. Probably some stuff in smaller sizes, too, but I don't really keep track of it, since I'm not interested, and it doesn't sound like you are, either. You'll probably have to adjust to Cherry or ALPS, though, since the existence of a buckling spring version would require innovation on the part of Unicomp, which doesn't happen.

[SamirD]

Yes, there are various others: Jaki JB002 and JB001, Zippy BW7050 (basically the same as KBT Pro), and Filco Majestouch Convertible 2 come to mind. Probably some stuff in smaller sizes, too, but I don't really keep track of it, since I'm not interested, and it doesn't sound like you are, either. You'll probably have to adjust to Cherry or ALPS, though, since the existence of a buckling spring version would require innovation on the part of Unicomp, which doesn't happen.

Thank you for the Christmas list.   There's a lot of different names out there for what essentially looks like the filco.  I actually used a genuine Alps back in the day before I even knew what keyboards were.  It was on a 386-16 that was being used as a call accounting interface for a hotel.  I'm sure that keyboard ended up in a trash can somewhere.

I see that you're an IBM M user as well.  What would you recommend in the Cherry switches that would be close to an IBM M?   Or at least a starting point to check out?

[FoxWolf1]

I'm not really a great person to ask about that, since I've never gotten along that well with my Model M. I'll take it out once in a while for variety, but it's not really my thing.

MX Greens are often regarded as the most similar to buckling springs among MX switches, but they're relatively rare.

MX Blues are probably your best starting point among common MX switches (assuming you can get ones that work, but that's another story); they'll be lighter than you're used to, with a click sound that's high-pitched and plastic-y. If you go for them, give them time; I used blues as my main switch for a couple of years, before the keyboard I had with them decided to expire, and it probably took me the better part of my first month with them to learn to like them.

[ideus]

Some wireless use cases I can relate to, some I can't.

A lot of the support for wireless seems to be just a matter of form over function-- you get a neater-looking area at the cost of having to worry about battery replacements or recharging, latency, and interference. I think that people sometimes forget that a "functional appearance" is still an appearance and not actual functionality, and trading functionality for a neat, clean, "functional" look is just as much a case of form over function as trading functionality for "bling."

On the other hand, I can see the point for stuff like wired keyboards with secondary wireless modes (like a Matias One, KBT Pro, etc.)-- being able to send text to other devices (phone, tablet, etc.) straight from your desktop keyboard, without having to get up, plug anything in, etc. seems like it could be pretty convenient, especially for the younger generation (who seem to need to send a text every five seconds no matter where they are or what they're doing). Or if you have a computer that you want to be able to control from across the room when not doing anything demanding, it would make sense to use a wireless peripheral for that. And I'm sure there are other uses of this sort...

You made good points here. I used wireless mice for the last three years, but I really hate their latency some time; then, I began using a small and cheap wired one in the last four weeks and now I realized the trade off I was making for using a wireless mouse.