[IC] GMK Oblivion V2 - Launches June 4th 2019 on Drop.com

[Kawamashi]

I'm absolutely against splitting off the numpad. I think the idea of a GMK base kit having 30+ extra compatibility keys but not even covering a standard ANSI 104 board is just bizarre and backwards.

Other than that issue, I just want to express my support for this set. I love SA Oblivion and can't want to get a matching GMK set; I'll probably buy both the base kit and Assembly kit to cover my Prime_L.. Depending on how the final kits shake out, I may even consider selling my GMK Space Cadet to get the Hagoromo and/or Space Cadet kits. 

I completely agree with you, removing numpad for a major drop like this one is nonsense, and against GMK kits pricing philosophy.

I'll probably get a base kit, the assembly kit and the cadet alphas.

[harlekein]

ITT: People with full sized layouts arguing for numpad and TKL or less against. Shocking.

[konstantin]

That being said, I still have suggestions / am wondering about two keys in the base kit:

• R1 Lock (Scroll Lock) – Consider using Scroll instead?
• R3 Code – Is this key intended to cover anything other than the extra key on Uniqey C70?

Just my 2c, but it also serves as a catch all key for 65/70 keyboards that might not want an incorrect legend on that key.

Do you have an example of a common 65%/75% setup that's not covered by the keys already in the set (R3 PgDn, R3 PgUp)?

[Emir]

Petition to change "regular modifier" kit into Icon modifier kit! 

[Oblotzky]

Petition to change "regular modifier" kit into Icon modifier kit! 

[vicissitude]

Is it possible to add red "esc+enter*2" to the monochrome modifier kit just like SA profile?
Really love to use red and blue by turns so far with SA Oblivion.

[KaosJ]

Petition to change "regular modifier" kit into Icon modifier kit! 

Show Image

Petition to "No."

[KaosJ]

I'm absolutely against splitting off the numpad. I think the idea of a GMK base kit having 30+ extra compatibility keys but not even covering a standard ANSI 104 board is just bizarre and backwards.

Other than that issue, I just want to express my support for this set. I love SA Oblivion and can't want to get a matching GMK set; I'll probably buy both the base kit and Assembly kit to cover my Prime_L.. Depending on how the final kits shake out, I may even consider selling my GMK Space Cadet to get the Hagoromo and/or Space Cadet kits. 

This.

[Acereconkeys]

It's 2019 baby the hobbies evolved. More people have boards without numpads than do now, by a significant enough margin that catering to those people is at least a consideration. Yeah it sucks if you're a numpad user you gotta pay more but it's not any more noble of a payment than people right now who buy GMK base kits and never use their current numpads. There's nothing backwards about it at all.

[KaosJ]

It's 2019 baby the hobbies evolved. More people have boards without numpads than do now, by a significant enough margin that catering to those people is at least a consideration. Yeah it sucks if you're a numpad user you gotta pay more but it's not any more noble of a payment than people right now who buy GMK base kits and never use their current numpads. There's nothing backwards about it at all.

Sure so GMK will be the next SA. 

[OtherAndrew]

It's 2019 baby the hobbies evolved. More people have boards without numpads than do now, by a significant enough margin that catering to those people is at least a consideration. Yeah it sucks if you're a numpad user you gotta pay more but it's not any more noble of a payment than people right now who buy GMK base kits and never use their current numpads. There's nothing backwards about it at all.

as expected ace is wrong yet again

[vicissitude]

Sure so GMK will be the next SA.

Nice vision.
Is it good or bad?

[Rayndalf]

That combined Ergodox Planck set is pretty neato.

Even if it costs more than the base kit, it can cover almost any hacked up ergo layout I can conceive of (a shame the kinesis has 1.25u side keys instead if 1u or 1.5u, but getting the 1u sides keys combined with the thumb keys is really nice)

[Pejano]

Since I got into this hobby last year, this is the key set I've been waiting for, so thank you!

I've read through most of this thread but haven't seen it mentioned: Any plans to re-produce this in SA profile?

To add to the interest check, I am definitely in and this is the type of buyer I am:

• I'm a Windows\Linux software engineer based in the UK - so I prefer the ISO UK layout.
• Currently own a 65% ANSI keyboard but it's not ideal for programming, so eventually would be using this on a full size keyboard. Yes - including number pad! I am a lot more efficient typing numbers on a number pad and debugging code with function keys. It makes sense for me to use these key caps on a full size keyboard.
• I don't mind buying a NorDeUK kit to complete the ISO UK layout but obviously that means it has to happen. Otherwise the kits only cater for ANSI layouts and that completely alienates your European market. Also it looks like you're missing a R4 backslash\pipe key.
• The Git modifiers are part of the theme and is the unique selling point so it makes complete sense to keep these in the base kit. I won't be programming the keys and it looks like there's a good range (commands, colours and sizes) to cater for most layouts.
• I use dark themes for my IDEs (I'm a night owl!) so I am happy with the base kit, but I will most likely pick up the Hagoromo Alphas for variation.

[equalunique]

GMK Oblivion R2 has surpassed my expectations - this set is exciting! I'm in for an Assembly/ErgoPlanck set, maybe Colevrak if it happens, and the Cadet alpha kits are exciting too. Those last two kits are incompatible & I lament missing out on 2018's GMK Space Cadet when all these kits worked together.

[oldcat]

GMK Oblivion R2 has surpassed my expectations - this set is exciting! I'm in for an Assembly/ErgoPlanck set, maybe Colevrak if it happens, and the Cadet alpha kits are exciting too. Those last two kits are incompatible & I lament missing out on 2018's GMK Space Cadet when all these kits worked together.

Expectation surpassed for sure! Cant wait

[harlekein]

It's 2019 baby the hobbies evolved. More people have boards without numpads than do now, by a significant enough margin that catering to those people is at least a consideration. Yeah it sucks if you're a numpad user you gotta pay more but it's not any more noble of a payment than people right now who buy GMK base kits and never use their current numpads. There's nothing backwards about it at all.

as expected ace is wrong yet again

How is what he posted wrong?

[nguyenhimself]

It's 2019 baby the hobbies evolved. More people have boards without numpads than do now, by a significant enough margin that catering to those people is at least a consideration. Yeah it sucks if you're a numpad user you gotta pay more but it's not any more noble of a payment than people right now who buy GMK base kits and never use their current numpads. There's nothing backwards about it at all.

as expected ace is wrong yet again

He or she was right though. How many full-sized custom kits are currently under active ICs or GBs right now? Most recently, I can only recall the Elephant. Maybe the various 1800 kits count too?

Realforce released an R2, and the first few questions were “Yes yes cool but TKL when?”.

The truth is, I find it very surprising that 100% boards are so loved, considering:
- Most people these days buy laptops with compact keyboards, not desktops. Hell, most people buy smartphones and their only computers are company-issued.
- Most people are not accountants or programmers.
- The one distinction of this hobby has always been weird tiny keyboards.

Of course it’s PERFECTLY fine if you’re into full-sized keyboards, but surely you can see that you’re part of a minority.

Honestly, the way I see it, we’ve been doing base kits with numpads for a long time now. We recently have one data point - thanks, GMK Jamón - that base kits with no numpad can still do well. Why not experiment with this idea some more? The more data points we have, the better decisions we can make.k

[Oblotzky]

You guys seem to be forgetting that this set will be sold on Massdrop, not via a Google form in a Geekhack thread where indeed 95% of people entering don’t have a numpad. Just check on SA Oblivion how numpad and specialty kits performed against each other.

[KaosJ]

Just check on SA Oblivion how numpad and specialty kits performed against each other.

This, 36% of the people who got the alphas, also got a numpad.  Also i believe there are people that skipped numpad even if they would prefer it in a gmk set (aka they have keyboards with a numpad and without, but they opted out to spend less). So at least 40% of Massdrop people would prefer a numpad.
That's a big amount. I would like to remind that in a full GMK set there are a lot of less used keys, a lot less popular than a numpad, if we follow the split logic we could start to remove other keys as well, keycaps that are literally unusued from most of the people. 

Also people keeps thinking about this because they saw the Jamon, but apparently aren't considering what will happen outside massdrop with lower MOQs if the split meme will start to take over GMK.   Just take a look at the GMK Minimal, a single color set is $110 and €110  in EU ($125), while full sets like GMK Calm Depths with many more keys was $125 and €130 in EU. Splitting is just bad and the numpad is pretty popular. 

[nasp]

What's the MOQ of GMK Minimal and what was the MOQ of GMK Calm Depths? Also, did those sets have the same vendors and designers? I don't think you can make an apples to apples comparison between the two.

[AlcoholEnthusiast]

You guys seem to be forgetting that this set will be sold on Massdrop, not via a Google form in a Geekhack thread where indeed 95% of people entering don’t have a numpad. Just check on SA Oblivion how numpad and specialty kits performed against each other.

Sure, but I feel you still have to be pretty enthusiast-level to spend 150$ on a keyset. Random Person X with their Red Dragon probably isn't dropping this much on a keyset, numpad or not.

[Puddsy]

You guys seem to be forgetting that this set will be sold on Massdrop, not via a Google form in a Geekhack thread where indeed 95% of people entering don’t have a numpad. Just check on SA Oblivion how numpad and specialty kits performed against each other.

you can also look at jamon

[nasp]

You guys seem to be forgetting that this set will be sold on Massdrop, not via a Google form in a Geekhack thread where indeed 95% of people entering don’t have a numpad. Just check on SA Oblivion how numpad and specialty kits performed against each other.

Why did so many who bought Jámon not opt for a numpad since it was sold on Massdrop?

Maybe a poll should be setup either here or on Massdrop to help clear up the confusion. 

[Puddsy]

You guys seem to be forgetting that this set will be sold on Massdrop, not via a Google form in a Geekhack thread where indeed 95% of people entering don’t have a numpad. Just check on SA Oblivion how numpad and specialty kits performed against each other.

Why did so many who bought Jámon not opt for a numpad since it was sold on Massdrop?

Maybe a poll should be setup either here or on Massdrop to help clear up the confusion.

because they don't need the numpad

[fatpolomanjr]

30% (250/846) bought a Jamon numpad.
36% (570/1590) bought either a SA Hagoromo or Oblivion numpad.

Both were $30 at the quantities reached. If Jamon's numbers were split into a Hagoromo and an Oblivion numpad that didn't reach 150 orders, that would be $38 per numpad kit. GMK Oblivion with a numpad will be, what, $115-135 after drops? With a split numpad this goes up to the $140-150 range for numpad buyers. Will this price difference affect the average buyer on massdrop?

e: That is, does the difference affect the non "keyboard-enthusiast" that doesnt drop $150 on a keyset?

[fatpolomanjr]

double post

[oldcat]

You guys seem to be forgetting that this set will be sold on Massdrop, not via a Google form in a Geekhack thread where indeed 95% of people entering don’t have a numpad. Just check on SA Oblivion how numpad and specialty kits performed against each other.

Why did so many who bought Jámon not opt for a numpad since it was sold on Massdrop?

Maybe a poll should be setup either here or on Massdrop to help clear up the confusion.

Not a whole lot of people use numpad these days. I am still ok buying a base kit with numpad but I will never use it.
This comes back to whether you want to have people who don't want numpad subside people who need numpad.

[KaosJ]

What's the MOQ of GMK Minimal and what was the MOQ of GMK Calm Depths? Also, did those sets have the same vendors and designers? I don't think you can make an apples to apples comparison between the two.

Both drops at 500 units, the MOQ to make the set happen is just smaller for the Minimal because it has less keycaps (always less keycaps == smaller moq to make the set happen). But still the price drops at 500 units for both. 
Is not nice to compare them i agree, but splitting increases prices. 

[KaosJ]

30% (250/846) bought a Jamon numpad.
36% (570/1590) bought either a SA Hagoromo or Oblivion numpad.

Both were $30 at the quantities reached. If Jamon's numbers were split into a Hagoromo and an Oblivion numpad that didn't reach 150 orders, that would be $38 per numpad kit. GMK Oblivion with a numpad will be, what, $115-135 after drops? With a split numpad this goes up to the $140-150 range for numpad buyers. Will this price difference affect the average buyer on massdrop?

Apart that you are forgetting the ISO which is included in the base kit, sure increasing price to numpad users would affect the drop.
GMK Carbon could be a clear example, introducing r0-r5 and making it more expensive was clearly a bad idea, even the most hyped keyset failed at that price, and that price is what who picks up a splitted base+numpad +iso has to pay (the current base set) 

[oldcat]

30% (250/846) bought a Jamon numpad.
36% (570/1590) bought either a SA Hagoromo or Oblivion numpad.

Both were $30 at the quantities reached. If Jamon's numbers were split into a Hagoromo and an Oblivion numpad that didn't reach 150 orders, that would be $38 per numpad kit. GMK Oblivion with a numpad will be, what, $115-135 after drops? With a split numpad this goes up to the $140-150 range for numpad buyers. Will this price difference affect the average buyer on massdrop?

Apart that you are forgetting the ISO which is included in the base kit, sure increasing price to numpad users would affect the drop.
GMK Carbon could be a clear example, introducing r0-r5 and making it more expensive was clearly a bad idea, even the most hyped keyset failed at that price, and that price is what who picks up a splitted base+numpad +iso has to pay (the current base set)

I dont think we need to be too worried as this will be on MD. Push it to 2000 sets and we will get a pretty low price with numpads and all.
Of course for those who want this to be 89 dollars it will not be possible without separating some kits

[fatpolomanjr]

I dont think we need to be too worried as this will be on MD.

Except we do need to worry, since both Jamon and SA Oblivion were on massdrop too. Though I agree with you that it would be less expensive to keep numpad in the base set due to such high order numbers. The split numpad will cost more for numpad users, and as KaosJ points out even a titan GMK set like Carbon struggled with certain split off kits.

[sadmachine]

+1 for num pad incl. in base.  Just my 2c. Can't wait. Thanks Oblotzky.

[OracleKev]

30% (250/846) bought a Jamon numpad.
36% (570/1590) bought either a SA Hagoromo or Oblivion numpad.

Both were $30 at the quantities reached. If Jamon's numbers were split into a Hagoromo and an Oblivion numpad that didn't reach 150 orders, that would be $38 per numpad kit. GMK Oblivion with a numpad will be, what, $115-135 after drops? With a split numpad this goes up to the $140-150 range for numpad buyers. Will this price difference affect the average buyer on massdrop?

32% (501/1590) bought one of the Extension kits on SA Oblivion.
Yes, lower than 36% for Numpad kits.
If we apply the blind popularity/economics rule, we should be splitting off Extension kits first. Doh!
I'd guess that would face vocal opposition especially in this forum.  It would show this forum doesn't represent the buyers overall.
Saving a few bucks shouldn't drive decision making here.  30%+ is very high number and is fully inline with the spirit of broad coverage for GMK base sets.  We all benefited from the GMK base set broad coverage and pricing.  Plus, we have a nice situation of being able to compare bundle (GMK) and a la carte (SP) pricing.  Why start to unravel that?

[Darknight00z]

30% (250/846) bought a Jamon numpad.
36% (570/1590) bought either a SA Hagoromo or Oblivion numpad.

Both were $30 at the quantities reached. If Jamon's numbers were split into a Hagoromo and an Oblivion numpad that didn't reach 150 orders, that would be $38 per numpad kit. GMK Oblivion with a numpad will be, what, $115-135 after drops? With a split numpad this goes up to the $140-150 range for numpad buyers. Will this price difference affect the average buyer on massdrop?

Apart that you are forgetting the ISO which is included in the base kit, sure increasing price to numpad users would affect the drop.
GMK Carbon could be a clear example, introducing r0-r5 and making it more expensive was clearly a bad idea, even the most hyped keyset failed at that price, and that price is what who picks up a splitted base+numpad +iso has to pay (the current base set)

huh? Don't think thats how gmk moq works. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but what I've seen is standard gmk colors = 150moq, custom colours = 250moq. More keys only affect the price not the moq.

[fatpolomanjr]

32% (501/1590) bought one of the Extension kits on SA Oblivion.
Yes, lower than 36% for Numpad kits.
If we apply the blind popularity/economics rule, we should be splitting off Extension kits first. Doh!
I'd guess that would face vocal opposition especially in this forum.  It would show this forum doesn't represent the buyers overall.
Saving a few bucks shouldn't drive decision making here.  30%+ is very high number and is fully inline with the spirit of broad coverage for GMK base sets.  We all benefited from the GMK base set broad coverage and pricing.  Plus, we have a nice situation of being able to compare bundle (GMK) and a la carte (SP) pricing.  Why start to unravel that?

Exactly. Excellent point and very well stated. My question about the $140-150 price for the average user with a numpad was in response to the non "enthusiast-level" keyboard fans "not willing to drop $150 on a keyset anyways", whereas they're more likely to buy the set if it is in the $115-135 range.

For the record: I'm all for keeping the numpad in the base kit. Penny wise but pound fool to remove it. I don't even own an 1800 or full size keyboard, but I did make a numpad out of my let's split and was really grateful for having matching numpad keys.

huh? Don't think thats how gmk moq works. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but what I've seen is standard gmk colors = 150moq, custom colours = 250moq. More keys only affect the price not the moq.

I'm going off of the numbers for GMK Jamon and GMK Carbon, which was 100 MOQ for anything not in the base kits. It seems that rule only applies to base kits, since both of those had 250 MOQ. And it isn't just more keys that affect the price, but the drop points for higher order quantities that lower it as well. My estimates were projecting prices for the hypothetical quantities ordered, based on Jamon and SA Oblivion numbers. For example:

[omjak]

Unrelated to the splitting numpad topic but related to kit costs, I'm more concerned about the lack of arrows kit for those who are willing to pay premium for regular mods + hagoromo kits... there's no saving money here, we are paying significant premium for that type of customization.

The lack of arrows for that kit combination surely works for 60% layout users, but the users of 65/75/87/96/100% layouts are suffering - it's just 4 extra keys.  I understand the intention here, but no one in the right mind would pay for full core kit just to have matching arrows, it's simpler/cheaper to get the core kit only (even if not ideal color combination), or to source the arrows from another set w/ different color ways and have them stand out as arrows/directional cluster (no longer the intended "pure" look but financially reasonable.) 

If extra set of arrows were included in the core set, it might encourage users to also get reg mods + hagoromo to make a complete 2nd set... likewise for those who are interested in the reg mods + hagoromo look, to get the core kit and make 2 complete sets.  (Complete sets are not waste of money, partial sets are.)  Sure this would drive the cost of the core kit (by 4 extra keys) to those who don't intend on getting mods+hagoromo, but it's only 4 keys... Obviously adding arrows to standalone kit, or part of the mod kits would also be welcoming alternatives for many.

[fatpolomanjr]

If extra set of arrows were included in the core set, it might encourage users to also get reg mods + hagoromo to make a complete 2nd set... likewise for those who are interested in the reg mods + hagoromo look, to get the core kit and make 2 complete sets.  (Complete sets are not waste of money, partial sets are.)  Sure this would drive the cost of the core kit (by 4 extra keys) to those who don't intend on getting mods+hagoromo, but it's only 4 keys... Obviously adding arrows to standalone kit, or part of the mod kits would also be welcoming alternatives for many.

Is throwing in 4 arrow keys enough to cover a 65% keyboard though? With just regular mods + hagoromo, you're missing keys for the right column for a 65%.

[omjak]

You're right... when paired w/ core, it would help complete 65/75%

[oldcat]

I will definitely try to make at least 2 boards with this. Some combinations will work.
Hope we push to 2000 sets and price breaks can be achieved. I was a bit unhappy with the price of Carbon R2 but it is what it is and I always join

[mrkantz]

Let's just split off the numpad and put it with the minivan compatibility kit and the 4th 'b' key.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

[fatpolomanjr]

You're right... when paired w/ core, it would help complete 65/75%

I see. Any 65 or 75% keyboard is going to take the same right column keys out of the core, so without extra novelties or artisans to fill in the gaps, the second board using the extra arrows is going to be deficient of a few keys no matter which way you cut it. The only combination I could see this working for is with a board that doesn't have navigation like 1800 layout, paired with a 65/75% board and hagoromo+regular mods. That combination of boards would use both arrow kits while not clashing over the navigation column keys.

Pretty niche scenario to add to the cost of every base kit, but it's not like other gmk sets don't have alternative/accent arrows in the base or a separate kit. I personally would love a set of text arrows and/or vimkeys! Just not with the intent of filling out a 65% and some other board with both, since that would be frustrating without buying a second base kit.

Let's just split off the numpad and put it with the minivan compatibility kit and the 4th 'b' key.

This comment gets funnier every time I reread it.

[dvorcol]

Looking at Numpad kit take rates in these Massdrop sets, one could argue it benefits the majority to offer Numpad as a separate kit.  But as a 104 user, I'm all for including Numpad in Base.

[oldcat]

Looking at Numpad kit take rates in these Massdrop sets, it benefits the majority to offer Numpad as a separate kit.

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Wow, you are the data viz man!

[fatpolomanjr]

Looking at Numpad kit take rates in these Massdrop sets, it benefits the majority to offer Numpad as a separate kit.

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tl;dr You can make the same graph and argument for extension/tsangan keys, which would be felt by those it affects just as badly as numpad users.

-----------------------------------

Can you create a similar graph with the Extension/Tsangan kits? I'm curious to see if the 32% number that OracleKev cited for SA Oblivion also holds for other sets. Which could generate a parallel narrative recommending those keys being split off from the base kit. I don't think it's fair to pull out a graph like this to conclude "it benefits the majority" to remove the numpad keys, without comparing it to a similar graph with the Extension/Tsangan keys. How truly representative of all keyboard enthusiasts are we at geekhack and on /r/mechanicalkeyboards, where 60-65% appear to be what's currently in vogue?

Taking Canvas Round 2 as an example, non-violet/wolfgang Numpad kits were 368/1734 (21.2%), whereas Text+Icons Hobbyist kits were only 219/1734 (12.6%).*

(*The total I'm using is just Alphas+Rams+Text alphas. For the Wolfgang/Manfred Viopads it was 55/253 (21.7%), so pretty similar to standard numpad proportion. The hobbyist kits might be a smaller proportion since profile is uniform, so any icons users could just mix and match base icons with Bauhaus icons to cover their tsangan layouts.)

[OracleKev]

Looking at Numpad kit take rates in these Massdrop sets, one could argue it benefits the majority to offer Numpad as a separate kit.  But as a 104 user, I'm all for including Numpad in Base.

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Nice graph!  Love your work everywhere.  :thumb:
That said, you know it's just bunch of numbers without proper interpretation.  :p

[TuCZnak]

Looking at Numpad kit take rates in these Massdrop sets, one could argue it benefits the majority to offer Numpad as a separate kit.  But as a 104 user, I'm all for including Numpad in Base.

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Based on the graph, one could also argue that numpad pick rate is significantly higher for SA, which doesn't have stupidly high split kit prices like GMK. So it might actually hurt the majority because people that want numpad won't join to pay 40$ premium.

It's just data, you can interpret it in myriad of ways ;-)

[whalematrontron]

can't wait to get oblivion for non-rape prices

[LightningXI]

+1 on keeping numpad and ISO to core kit.

[Visionaire]

Looking at Numpad kit take rates in these Massdrop sets, one could argue it benefits the majority to offer Numpad as a separate kit.  But as a 104 user, I'm all for including Numpad in Base.

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Nice work