[IC] GMK NorDeUK - cheap GMK for Europeans [GB started]

[Krakob]

GROUP BUY HERE

GMK NorDeUK is simply put an effort to bring GMK caps to a large portion of the European community. I am aiming for a minimal price by cutting out (almost) all of that unnecessary American rabble, shipping from Sweden, and minimising profits. Combined with having a single unified set, MOQ should be easy to reach!

Compatibility:

• Tenkeyless
• 60%
• 65%
• Winkeyless
• HHKB
• ANSI, albeit legends may be incorrect
• Loads of customs, I’d imagine!

Covered languages:

• English (Traditional)
• German
• Swedish / Finnish
• Norwegian
• Danish

Pricing:
The MOQ is 150 at most, but I have asked GMK if they are willing to go lower given that it’s a community effort.
Pricing will be per kit from GMK + VAT + shipping + €10 as a safety margin. I’m hoping for it to be closer to €100 than €150 but I can’t really say yet.
Shipping will be insured and tracked packages sent through PostNord.

About me:
I can imagine this post looks a bit fishy given my low post count, hence an introduction is in order. I am primarily a user of /r/mk and a mod of the accompanying Discord. I started out with keyboards way back when my sister called me from DreamHack, saying that SteelSeries was selling mechanical keyboards (6Gv2) for cheap and offered to buy one for me. Of course I said yes and roughly a year later I entered the community looking for a better keyboard which lead me to a Ducky Shine 2. From there on it was just a hazy sequence of poor choices and failed rehabilitation.

The set was developed with the help of friends on the MechKeys Discord and after a bit of reiterating, we got the set as seen in this thread.

[Ball-o-tron]

Yes

Edit: Isn't the dot usually a tilde?

[ehmlis]

Well, this sounds interesting

[Burt Macklin]

Sounds great 

Any ETA?

[vegs]

Interested

[TalkingTree]

Wouldn't be worth replacing ANSI keys with NorDe equivalents rather than having both?

[longtran1568]

Hi,

Thanks for the effort! A cheap and universal ISO kit like this is very much needed!

I just want to ask for the addition of 3 R1 keys: Del, End and Page Down.

I am currently using a custom 96 keys layout, similar to ZZ96 and RS96. Leopold 1800 layout is also quite similar. For those layouts you would need to have those 3 keys on the top of the numpad (R1).

If this kit could also have it, you would have a buyer!
Thanks.

[longtran1568]

Wouldn't be worth replacing ANSI keys with NorDe equivalents rather than having both?

This. This set is meant for ISO users so we can omit those ANSI keys

[pattulus]

My thoughts:

I really like the idea. But I'm not sold because of the color choice. The classic black and white look is the epitome of simplicity. I get that. But why not go all-in with a more interesting color story.

I'd also love to see the Planck and Ergodox typed out in the compatibility list rather than "lots of customs" — this would give me a warm feeling of being included. I'd know that I'm on the safe side keycap-wise.

[twk]

Good idea! I might be interested, depending on the price.

[diiiP]

Interested, but would love to see some other colors than black & white 

[Krakob]

Super glad to wake up to this reception!

Yes

Edit: Isn't the dot usually a tilde?

It's different for all covered languages, meaning we'd need to add 5 caps, which is more cost than it's worth. As such I want to replace it with a generic key, or possibly a blank.

Sounds great 

Any ETA?

None yet! Hopefully we'll be finalise the design within a week or two and submit to GMK, after which it's just a matter of sorting out logistics and getting the GB running!

Hi,

Thanks for the effort! A cheap and universal ISO kit like this is very much needed!

I just want to ask for the addition of 3 R1 keys: Del, End and Page Down.

I am currently using a custom 96 keys layout, similar to ZZ96 and RS96. Leopold 1800 layout is also quite similar. For those layouts you would need to have those 3 keys on the top of the numpad (R1).

If this kit could also have it, you would have a buyer!
Thanks.

This is something I've considered. However, I'm not keen on introducing three more keys. What I do wonder is if it would be reasonable to change the mentioned keys to R1 instead, as it'll make the kit better for a lot of non-standard layouts while still being pretty much the same for TKL, considering that they're not part of the main cluster anyway.

Wouldn't be worth replacing ANSI keys with NorDe equivalents rather than having both?

The only ANSI caps included are left shift, enter, and pipe (blank). This is to make the set compatible with HHKB as well as ANSI, for the Eu users who prefer ANSI as well as any buyers who might just want a cheap WoB GMK set. The keys shown in the main cluster are ISO UK with all Nordic/DE caps shown below.

My thoughts:

I really like the idea. But I'm not sold because of the color choice. The classic black and white look is the epitome of simplicity. I get that. But why not go all-in with a more interesting color story.

I'd also love to see the Planck and Ergodox typed out in the compatibility list rather than "lots of customs" — this would give me a warm feeling of being included. I'd know that I'm on the safe side keycap-wise.

I chose white on black in order to make it a simple set that can appeal to a wide audience, even if it's not their preferred colourway. The intention of the set is to make it appeal to as many Nordic/German/UK users as possible in order to make sure we can reach MOQ. While it's not a super interesting set design wise, this isn't really the place for innovation.

Sadly, Ergodox and Planck will not be covered. They add too many keys and will raise the price too much, making MOQ harder to hit.

[dorf]

You got my attention.

[TalkingTree]

Wouldn't be worth replacing ANSI keys with NorDe equivalents rather than having both?

The only ANSI caps included are left shift, enter, and pipe (blank).

Not those. I mean the number strip and the non alphabetic keys.

Something like this.

[Krakob]

Wouldn't be worth replacing ANSI keys with NorDe equivalents rather than having both?

The only ANSI caps included are left shift, enter, and pipe (blank).

Not those. I mean the number strip and the non alphabetic keys.

Something like this.
(Attachment Link)

Those are ISO UK 

[longtran1568]

I do wonder is if it would be reasonable to change the mentioned keys to R1 instead, as it'll make the kit better for a lot of non-standard layouts while still being pretty much the same for TKL, considering that they're not part of the main cluster anyway.

That would be a neat idea. Looking forward to this

About color, you could throw in many colors, then make a poll to see which will get more sale.

[grayish]

Interested!

[thel]

I am definitly intersted. Do you already have a timeline?

[Mechboards]

Looks good

[Blackhawk]

Somewhat interested, but the lack of a proper left numberrow key is a killer. I strongly prefer correct legends for all languages at an extra cost. I'm also in favor of changing the the 1.5u R2 ANSI key above the enter to #' or '* (similar to the HADapter kit - it might even be worth it to include both).

EDIT: Have you thought about including "E€" and "M΅" keys as well?

[TalkingTree]

Those are ISO UK

Look again.

[Krakob]

I am definitly intersted. Do you already have a timeline?

Hoping to finish up the IC within two weeks and request a quote. After that it's just a matter of waiting and launching!

Somewhat interested, but the lack of a proper left numberrow key is a killer. I strongly prefer correct legends for all languages at an extra cost. I'm also in favor of changing the the 1.25u R2 ANSI key above the enter to #' or '* (similar to the HADapter kit - it might even be worth it to include both).

EDIT: Have you thought about including "E€" and "M΅" keys as well?

My philosophy was to unconditionally include correct secondary legends, while discarding tertiary legends if it would mean one set got the correct legend while others wouldn't, e.g. +? is correct for Danish and Norwegian, but it should be +?\ for Swedish. I think it's better to discard the backslash in this case as it will still be "correct" for Swedish, even if it misses a backslash.

I did consider legending the 1.5u key but it would require four  keycaps to be added as you'd need to have the UK, DE, and Nordic variants plus a backspace (or is it delete?) to cover HHKB. Since it's more of a modifier key plainly in terms of size and position I think it's fine for it to be blank in this case.

As for secondary legends on letters (@, €, Mu), I chose to discard them as they aren't part of ISO UK and would have to add three keys, which isn't worth the price in this case.

I do wonder is if it would be reasonable to change the mentioned keys to R1 instead, as it'll make the kit better for a lot of non-standard layouts while still being pretty much the same for TKL, considering that they're not part of the main cluster anyway.

That would be a neat idea. Looking forward to this

About color, you could throw in many colors, then make a poll to see which will get more sale.

Well I want to keep it very simple in order to make sure it has a broad appeal, so it pretty much boiled down to white on black or black on white. However, black on white can be found on vintage Cherry boards and can be produced through dyesubbing PBT. Therefore I believe the set will have a stronger spot on the market as black on white, since there's a larger gap to fill. In fact, I'm not sure if any white on black double shot sets that cover nordic/german have made it to the market.

[Krakob]

Those are ISO UK

Look again.

Looking as hard as I can and disregarding tilde and the tertiary legend on 4, it's matching the images I'm finding on Google. https://ultimatehackingkeyboard.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/uk-layout.svg and https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/9c/ISO_keyboard_(105)_QWERTY_UK.svg/750px-ISO_keyboard_(105)_QWERTY_UK.svg.png

[Blackhawk]

Somewhat interested, but the lack of a proper left numberrow key is a killer. I strongly prefer correct legends for all languages at an extra cost. I'm also in favor of changing the the 1.25u R2 ANSI key above the enter to #' or '* (similar to the HADapter kit - it might even be worth it to include both).

EDIT: Have you thought about including "E€" and "M΅" keys as well?

My philosophy was to unconditionally include correct secondary legends, while discarding tertiary legends if it would mean one set got the correct legend while others wouldn't, e.g. +? is correct for Danish and Norwegian, but it should be +?\ for Swedish. I think it's better to discard the backslash in this case as it will still be "correct" for Swedish, even if it misses a backslash.

I did consider legending the 1.5u key but it would require four  keycaps to be added as you'd need to have the UK, DE, and Nordic variants plus a backspace (or is it delete?) to cover HHKB. Since it's more of a modifier key plainly in terms of size and position I think it's fine for it to be blank in this case.

As for secondary legends on letters (@, €, Mu), I chose to discard them as they aren't part of ISO UK and would have to add three keys, which isn't worth the price in this case.

I was refering to the one you left as a dot in the mockup (~` in ANSI layout, ½§ in danish etc.). I can get behind the choice of disregarding the tertiary legends.

Regarding the 1.5u pipe key: I might be in the minority but I exclusive use the standard ANSI layout, so having a blank key greatly detracts from the aesthetic of the set. However your argument for not including those keys is valid. Maybe this set is not for me.

[TalkingTree]

These are the differences between UK and the NORDE kit that Wodan proposed.
The yellow keys are optional.


For your convenience, KLE source is here.

[ricyuyc]

Would you consider to include Dvorak(English) add-on kit on this classic set?

[Krakob]

These are the differences between UK and the NORDE kit that Wodan proposed.
The yellow keys are optional.
(Attachment Link)

For your convenience, KLE source is here.

I'm not seeing the miss match here. UK, DE, Swedish/Finnish, Danish, and Norwegian are all covered. While I did base it on Wodan's kit I did make a few small changes and I based it on UK ISO since ANSI was not the goal.

Would you consider to include Dvorak(English) add-on kit on this classic set?

I won't, it requires too many keys for a relatively uncommon niche that would be better handled by a uniform profile.

[TalkingTree]

Ok, sorry, I was focusing on the Norde part of the kit and forgot it also had to include the UK layout.

[Krakob]

Ok, sorry, I was focusing on the Norde part of the kit and forgot it also had to include the UK layout.

You had me confused there!

In other news, updating the image tomorrow. The tilde (dotted R1) key will be replaced with a blank unless we can come up with something better. R2 of the nav cluster (delete, end, page down) will be turned into R1. This will allow for better fit to 65% boards as the nav cluster, in that case located on the rightmost column, will not be a mess of R1 and R2 caps. It will also be nice for 75% boards depending on layout. For TKLs, this will be a slight deviation from standard but I'm pretty confident it's the better design choice. I did consider uniform R2, but it would not blend with the top row of 75%s as well.

[ricyuyc]

These are the differences between UK and the NORDE kit that Wodan proposed.
The yellow keys are optional.
(Attachment Link)

For your convenience, KLE source is here.

I'm not seeing the miss match here. UK, DE, Swedish/Finnish, Danish, and Norwegian are all covered. While I did base it on Wodan's kit I did make a few small changes and I based it on UK ISO since ANSI was not the goal.

Would you consider to include Dvorak(English) add-on kit on this classic set?

I won't, it requires too many keys for a relatively uncommon niche that would be better handled by a uniform profile.

Thank you Sir. I would join still if you would ship to Hong Kong in affordable shipping cost. 

[Gosnat]

I would easily jump on this, more support for Europe! And when i come to think of it, i do not own a really plain set that has higher quality.

[maximm]

I don't like the idea. Releasing popular sets with an optional NOR/DE works well enough. We get a great set, and a chance for a NOR/DE set as well.

[hansichen]

I don't like the idea. Releasing popular sets with an optional NOR/DE works well enough. We get a great set, and a chance for a NOR/DE set as well.

Plum is at 28/100 orders at the moment. I don't think that it will not the 100. Terminal failed hitting the 100 too. And even if it would hit it is at a price of 200+ for most europeans. If this kit stays at <150$ everyone has a affordable chance getting norde. And there are quite many people who only want norde sets, those people wouldn't buy a normal plum set.

[wodan]

I am assuming PLUM International is approaching ~50 as we speak, the 28 is from 17th of feb.

That kit has the potential to get close enough to 100 for GMK to give in and still make it despite missing MOQ. they WANT to make international kits and serve the EU market better!

Same with the GMK Carbon international kit that we also got despite missing MOQ ... don't be so negative, have faith.

[Applet]

In other news, updating the image tomorrow. The tilde (dotted R1) key will be replaced with a blank unless we can come up with something better.

Maybe you could have a community cap or something else that's a bit more fun than a blank? Maybe reuse some existing novelty cap? (please not the cherry-icon tho)

Since it covers HHKB-layout, I might join it for the good cause (if I can afford it when it goes live), the Swedish caps might come in handy some day, you never know

[hansichen]

I am assuming PLUM International is approaching ~50 as we speak, the 28 is from 17th of feb.

That kit has the potential to get close enough to 100 for GMK to give in and still make it despite missing MOQ. they WANT to make international kits and serve the EU market better!

Same with the GMK Carbon international kit that we also got despite missing MOQ ... don't be so negative, have faith.

You are right, numbers should be at 45-50 now. We will see if they'll produce it. Either way, I think that this is a good set to spread some norde love

[kevral]

Interested, probably in 2 sets.

Thanks, this is a very good idea!

[My_Thoughts]

Feedback needed:
What do we do with the top left key that is currently a dot? Given that it’s not the same for any of the languages (and its frequent replacement by escape in 60% boards), it would be relatively expensive to properly legend it. Some symbol is ideal but making an entirely new novelty cap will raise the price, which is not quite what’s being aimed at.

I liked the idea GMK Terminal had.  They had a blank key there.  Then no one has the wrong symbol

[My_Thoughts]

Wouldn't be worth replacing ANSI keys with NorDe equivalents rather than having both?

The only ANSI caps included are left shift, enter, and pipe (blank).

Not those. I mean the number strip and the non alphabetic keys.

Something like this.
(Attachment Link)

Those are ISO UK 

Not sure if it would annoy other people but any chance of the 4 key having $ and € symbols on it?

[My_Thoughts]

I don't like the idea. Releasing popular sets with an optional NOR/DE works well enough. We get a great set, and a chance for a NOR/DE set as well.

Plum is at 28/100 orders at the moment. I don't think that it will not the 100. Terminal failed hitting the 100 too. And even if it would hit it is at a price of 200+ for most europeans. If this kit stays at <150$ everyone has a affordable chance getting norde. And there are quite many people who only want norde sets, those people wouldn't buy a normal plum set.

I suspect Terminal would have done a lot better on Massdrop   But the price was also a killer for it

[My_Thoughts]

My thoughts:

I really like the idea. But I'm not sold because of the color choice. The classic black and white look is the epitome of simplicity. I get that. But why not go all-in with a more interesting color story.

I agree that the white on black is not amazing for me. But finding a colour everyone is happy with might be a challenge

[Applet]

I'm fine keeping it a 1U blank, I really like the approach of keeping it as cheap and flexible as possible. The blank R2 1,75 a blank makes me a bit sad tho, but I get it. Do you really think there will be many "regular" ANSI users joining it?

[dorf]

If I'm jumping on this I would like all legends correct so for me you need to include @ on 2, £ on 3 and \ on + so that all keys are "swedish".
For me I would say that I have a larger need to insert "extra" keys such as a function key to the right of right shift on smaller boards. I do not have this need on a TKL. And if you are considering changing rows to match 65% and 75%, I would say that it's not fully TKL compatible. I'm not saying that this is bad. Look at the kit that Zennasyndroxx made. I love it with all the special sizes of keys which lets me configure my GH60. So it's more important for me to have legends correct than compromises. € symbol on E and ΅ on M would be a bonus.

[maximm]

Yeah, but what you get here is a WoB set with nordic legends.
This will never reach MOQ, as the only reason for getting this is the nordic legends. Very few others will buy it. So it will still have exactly the same issues as any nordic addition to other sets, which still have the advantage of being popular to the 500+ MOQ limits.

[dorf]

Like Wodan pointed out, we need to stay positive and I totally understand that creating a kit with compromises is better than none. What this hopefully will lead to is that more people will actually have keyboards with their languages rather than converting to US/ANSI.

[maximm]

Staying positive is fine, but this is an IC, and I am giving my simple opinions on the matter. The IC phase is about gathering info from everyone before time and energy is put into a GB.

[Krakob]

These are the differences between UK and the NORDE kit that Wodan proposed.
The yellow keys are optional.
(Attachment Link)

For your convenience, KLE source is here.

I'm not seeing the miss match here. UK, DE, Swedish/Finnish, Danish, and Norwegian are all covered. While I did base it on Wodan's kit I did make a few small changes and I based it on UK ISO since ANSI was not the goal.

Would you consider to include Dvorak(English) add-on kit on this classic set?

I won't, it requires too many keys for a relatively uncommon niche that would be better handled by a uniform profile.

Thank you Sir. I would join still if you would ship to Hong Kong in affordable shipping cost. 

Hong Kong shipping will be possible, but I can't say what the price will be yet. I believe it will be the same price for everyone except swedes, though!

If I'm jumping on this I would like all legends correct so for me you need to include @ on 2, £ on 3 and \ on + so that all keys are "swedish".
For me I would say that I have a larger need to insert "extra" keys such as a function key to the right of right shift on smaller boards. I do not have this need on a TKL. And if you are considering changing rows to match 65% and 75%, I would say that it's not fully TKL compatible. I'm not saying that this is bad. Look at the kit that Zennasyndroxx made. I love it with all the special sizes of keys which lets me configure my GH60. So it's more important for me to have legends correct than compromises. € symbol on E and ΅ on M would be a bonus.

As I discussed briefly earlier, the philosophy behind the set is that all secondary legends must be correct, but tertiary legends (including € and mu) will not be included if it means the set will require more keycaps.

The change I proposed was to make Del, End, and PgDn R1, nothing else. I agree that it's not truly TKL compatible but since it's not part of the main cluster it's pretty negligible. Just wanna make sure we're on the same page

In other news, updating the image tomorrow. The tilde (dotted R1) key will be replaced with a blank unless we can come up with something better.

Maybe you could have a community cap or something else that's a bit more fun than a blank? Maybe reuse some existing novelty cap? (please not the cherry-icon tho)

Since it covers HHKB-layout, I might join it for the good cause (if I can afford it when it goes live), the Swedish caps might come in handy some day, you never know

A new novelty cap would increase the price more than I'd like. Reusing a novelty cap is not a bad idea, but I have no clue what we'd actually use in that case. Since it's a minimalist set, I'm not sure if there is anything that will fit and look better than a blank.

Wouldn't be worth replacing ANSI keys with NorDe equivalents rather than having both?

The only ANSI caps included are left shift, enter, and pipe (blank).

Not those. I mean the number strip and the non alphabetic keys.

Something like this.
[ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ]

Those are ISO UK 

Not sure if it would annoy other people but any chance of the 4 key having $ and € symbols on it?

Nope. That is only part of ISO UK. ISO DE does not have the € sign there, so we're skipping it.

I don't like the idea. Releasing popular sets with an optional NOR/DE works well enough. We get a great set, and a chance for a NOR/DE set as well.

and

Yeah, but what you get here is a WoB set with nordic legends.
This will never reach MOQ, as the only reason for getting this is the nordic legends. Very few others will buy it. So it will still have exactly the same issues as any nordic addition to other sets, which still have the advantage of being popular to the 500+ MOQ limits.

I understand the skepticism but I also believe there's a few good reasons this will succeed:
1. It's being shipped within Europe, reducing shipping prices.
2. It's also not subject to import tax, which can be very steep.
3. It's being run minimum profit, meaning it will undercut competition pretty well.
4. There have been few successful international kits, resulting in german and nordic buyers often being left out. UK tends to have a bit more luck but it's often not true ISO UK and just ANSI + the three extra keys.

All in all these factors will contribute to a pretty large amount of potential buyers with strong incentives to join in.

[Krakob]

Updated the main post! Tilde changed to blank, Delete/End/Pgdn changed to R1, legend positioning and text corrected, modifiers changed to legends as far as possible. I'm not sure if GMK can provide icon legends for bottom row modifiers. From what I gather, they only provide icons for Windows and Menu, which will not be used as it is to remain OS agnostic and since we're using Fn, not Menu. I'm also not entirely sure if they have molds for Super, most sets that use text for it seem to use Code instead. Nevertheless I'll be asking them about it to make sure.

I'll leave the set design open to discussion until Friday or so, but I think the set is more or less done. Thanks for the feedback so far!

Ed, Edd 'n Eddit: Sierra (Discord mod; credit where credit is due) suggested the GMK or Cherry logo is used for the tilde. I think this is a great idea as it doesn't leave a hole in the design while also playing nicely with the icon modifier theme and paying homage to Cherry, the original creators of our beloved switches and also the very tools these keycaps will be made with! The GMK logo was also suggested, but I honestly think it just doesn't look as good and wouldn't fit the iconography. You can find the GMK logo at the bottom here: https://geekhack.org/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=84756.0;attach=158456;image

Edit 2: changed again! Changed Super to Code and added Cherry logo.

[pomk]

would you consider running this split into three kits like this:



It would give correct legends while keeping the price low by separating ansi and UK keys.

[Krakob]

would you consider running this split into three kits like this:

(Attachment Link)

It would give correct legends while keeping the price low by separating ansi and UK keys.

One of the core principles of the set is that it will not be split. In most GBs, you have ANSI as the default. For international support it's often just the bare necessities for ISO, maybe enough for correct ISO UK if you're lucky. German and nordic packs very often fail to hit MOQ due to all the segregation, which is pretty much why this set is run. From a business point of view, it makes sense because it means you can get more ANSI/US buyers by having a lower price, and if there are enough who are willing to buy an international kit, you can get those as well.

By combining our efforts into a single amount of purchases, it means we'll have a much easier time reaching MOQ as instead of having 50 going for the UK kit, 30 for the German kit, and 20 for the Nordic kit we'll get maybe 80-90 people going for the full kit instead. Some buyers will be lost due to the inherent cost of a bigger kit but it's just about the only solution we have to this issue until the keyboard community has grown a whole lot more, or until manufacturers drop their MOQs. In GMK's case, they've already dropped from 250 to 150, and I believe they've run international add-on kits at less. As mentioned in the OP, I'm hoping they'll be willing to run this kit even if we don't hit 150, but we can't know for sure yet.

Should the GB end before we hit the MOQ, I will of course contact them and see if they'll run it at whatever amount we are at then. If not, we'll simply have to cancel.