Author Topic: [GB] GMK NorDeUK (Closed; postmortem inside)  (Read 37147 times)

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Offline tedk

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Re: [GB] GMK NorDeUK
« Reply #50 on: Wed, 05 April 2017, 05:35:31 »
try to contact gmk and mention the massdrop gb, maybe they lower the moq for us? hope that helps.

Offline Krakob

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Re: [GB] GMK NorDeUK
« Reply #51 on: Wed, 05 April 2017, 05:38:43 »
try to contact gmk and mention the massdrop gb, maybe they lower the moq for us? hope that helps.
I'll definitely check with them if they're wiling to run it at fewer orders if we can at least get close to MOQ. They would probably not at 50, but there could be a chance at 100+ if I have to guess.
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Offline ectoplasmatic

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Re: [GB] GMK NorDeUK
« Reply #52 on: Wed, 05 April 2017, 06:48:34 »
I'm a UK based ANSI user, and saw your post on Reddit today -- I have no use for all the euro compatibility, but would like to support this and also prefer your icon legends on modifiers as opposed to the text legends on modifiers on the MD group buy. Would I be able to cover a 60% ANSI set up with winkeyless 1.5 x 1.5 x 7 x 1.5 x 1.5 bottom row? I'll have another look at the first post if this is obvious... Thanks!

Offline ectoplasmatic

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Re: [GB] GMK NorDeUK
« Reply #53 on: Wed, 05 April 2017, 06:53:30 »
I'm a UK based ANSI user, and saw your post on Reddit today -- I have no use for all the euro compatibility, but would like to support this and also prefer your icon legends on modifiers as opposed to the text legends on modifiers on the MD group buy. Would I be able to cover a 60% ANSI set up with winkeyless 1.5 x 1.5 x 7 x 1.5 x 1.5 bottom row? I'll have another look at the first post if this is obvious... Thanks!

Well, 5 mins looking at the front page answered my question... haha. Looks like I would have no problem.

Offline Liocer

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Re: [GB] GMK NorDeUK
« Reply #54 on: Wed, 05 April 2017, 14:36:17 »
Really hope you hit MOQ on this, I've spent nearly all of my money so I can't join in but good luck :)

Offline Krakob

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Re: [GB] GMK NorDeUK
« Reply #55 on: Wed, 05 April 2017, 14:58:46 »
Really hope you hit MOQ on this, I've spent nearly all of my money so I can't join in but good luck :)
Thank you! 😊
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Offline Krakob

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Re: [GB] GMK NorDeUK
« Reply #56 on: Tue, 11 April 2017, 06:44:55 »
Weekly update!

No new orders in a week. Promotion directed to Brits has not worked out great; despite the posts in the standard communities as well as /r/MechanicalKeyboardsUK and a Facebook post at launch, there's only one order to Great Britain so far. I would probably attribute this to Originative having been available to them for a long time in addition to MD's GB also currently running and being seen as the more reliable option. Nevertheless, if we can reach at least a hundred orders, then I'd say it's at least worth asking GMK. I'll launch a few last promotional posts and we'll see how it turns out.

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Offline My_Thoughts

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Re: [GB] GMK NorDeUK
« Reply #57 on: Tue, 11 April 2017, 07:48:24 »
The White on Black set on massdrop also seems to be having problems meeting MOQ

Offline Mechboards

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Re: [GB] GMK NorDeUK
« Reply #58 on: Tue, 11 April 2017, 08:24:41 »
I'll place a post on the website if you like promoting the keyset?

Offline Krakob

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Re: [GB] GMK NorDeUK
« Reply #59 on: Tue, 11 April 2017, 08:26:18 »
I'll place a post on the website if you like promoting the keyset?

That would be very appreciated, thank you! :)
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Offline Mechboards

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Offline Tweets

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Re: [GB] GMK NorDeUK
« Reply #61 on: Tue, 11 April 2017, 09:32:30 »
I'd be that one UK buyer, eh?

Not a fan of the Massdrop (which is basically identical to the Originative) flavour, since it's missing some of the ISO-UK legends.

Really hope this clears MOQ, because damn, I've been looking for a WoB ISO-UK, and I'd love to try out something from GMK - I find PBT a pain to keep clean thanks to my hands sweating so much compared to most peoples', but I dislike how thin this current ABS set feels.

Offline TalkingTree

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Re: [GB] GMK NorDeUK
« Reply #62 on: Tue, 11 April 2017, 12:56:35 »
If this fails, god forbids, I truly hope it's a matter of colour scheme. I would really like to see more NorDeUK sets in the (near) future.
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Offline dorf

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Re: [GB] GMK NorDeUK
« Reply #63 on: Tue, 11 April 2017, 18:07:37 »
Weekly update!

No new orders in a week. Promotion directed to Brits has not worked out great; despite the posts in the standard communities as well as /r/MechanicalKeyboardsUK and a Facebook post at launch, there's only one order to Great Britain so far. I would probably attribute this to Originative having been available to them for a long time in addition to MD's GB also currently running and being seen as the more reliable option. Nevertheless, if we can reach at least a hundred orders, then I'd say it's at least worth asking GMK. I'll launch a few last promotional posts and we'll see how it turns out.

Give it a shot anyway! I want this!!

Offline dorf

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Re: [GB] GMK NorDeUK
« Reply #64 on: Thu, 13 April 2017, 02:43:37 »
So MD just notified that GB was unsuccessful. Let's hope people find their way here.

Offline Krakob

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Re: [GB] GMK NorDeUK
« Reply #65 on: Thu, 13 April 2017, 09:33:18 »
Closing in on the end date! The last few posts have gone up and I've asked a few vendors to sign up for sets, now awaiting responses. Mykeyboard.eu has signed up for 10 :)
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Offline beltet

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Re: [GB] GMK NorDeUK
« Reply #66 on: Thu, 13 April 2017, 09:33:59 »
I've totally missed this GB. Joining!

Offline ramnes

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Re: [GB] GMK NorDeUK
« Reply #67 on: Thu, 13 April 2017, 10:55:45 »
Anyone interested in selling me just the 1.5u bottom row when this arrives? :)
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Offline dorf

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Re: [GB] GMK NorDeUK
« Reply #68 on: Sun, 16 April 2017, 13:36:08 »
Is 47/150 the current count?

Offline Krakob

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Re: [GB] GMK NorDeUK
« Reply #69 on: Mon, 17 April 2017, 04:09:38 »
Is 47/150 the current count?

49 as of now. However, I'm cancelling the GB now. I'll be publishing some thoughts, stats, and whatnot in a while. I'll clean up first though, cancelling the invoices and all that.

Thanks for joining in, everyone! :)
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Offline Tweets

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Re: [GB] GMK NorDeUK
« Reply #70 on: Mon, 17 April 2017, 04:55:32 »
Damn, it's a shame to see nothing came of it, though not unexpected by any means.

Offline dorf

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Re: [GB] GMK NorDeUK
« Reply #71 on: Mon, 17 April 2017, 05:09:38 »
I really wanted this.

Offline Krakob

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Re: [GB] GMK NorDeUK
« Reply #72 on: Mon, 17 April 2017, 09:23:51 »
Some stats

166109-0
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Offline TalkingTree

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Re: [GB] GMK NorDeUK
« Reply #73 on: Mon, 17 April 2017, 10:43:03 »
I'm surprised how bad it sold on geekhack. I truly hope it's only a matter of colour scheme.
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Offline dfrib

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Re: [GB] GMK NorDeUK
« Reply #74 on: Mon, 17 April 2017, 14:10:25 »
Thanks for the statistics.

I'm also surprised at the low participation rate from geekhack members. Furthermore surprised that there were not a single Finnish participant; isn't the common .fi ISO layout the same as for .se? Maybe looking into where to announce .fi-compatable highend keysets to the .fi market could be future food for thought for whomever makes yet another try at a set aimed for this market.

Nice try and good work with the GB nonetheless!

If you/anyone else ever feel renewed inspiration to try out another GMK NorDeUK set (BoW/WoB/...), here's at least one guaranteed participant :)
« Last Edit: Mon, 17 April 2017, 14:15:13 by dfrib »
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Offline Puddsy

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Re: [GB] GMK NorDeUK
« Reply #75 on: Tue, 18 April 2017, 00:01:06 »
I'm surprised how bad it sold on geekhack. I truly hope it's only a matter of colour scheme.

This is tradition for supercompatible sets like this.

All the ISO users complain and complain, but never put their money where their mouth is. That's why so many people just add and ISO shift/enter and some blanks to their GB and call it there.

WoB probably had the best chance of succeeding for a set like this. A beige or a dolch-type colorway might've also done well, but the fact is I've never seen a supercompatible ISO kit sell well in any GB.
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Offline TalkingTree

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Re: [GB] GMK NorDeUK
« Reply #76 on: Tue, 18 April 2017, 04:12:50 »
I'm surprised how bad it sold on geekhack. I truly hope it's only a matter of colour scheme.

This is tradition for supercompatible sets like this.

All the ISO users complain and complain, but never put their money where their mouth is. That's why so many people just add and ISO shift/enter and some blanks to their GB and call it there.

WoB probably had the best chance of succeeding for a set like this. A beige or a dolch-type colorway might've also done well, but the fact is I've never seen a supercompatible ISO kit sell well in any GB.
I totally understand this argument in an ANSI set, but this was a specific ISO group buy. I didn't expect it to sell thousands but at least a hundred of sets. Again, I hope next attempt is successful.
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Offline pomk

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Re: [GB] GMK NorDeUK
« Reply #77 on: Tue, 18 April 2017, 04:20:15 »
Thanks for the statistics.

I'm also surprised at the low participation rate from geekhack members. Furthermore surprised that there were not a single Finnish participant; isn't the common .fi ISO layout the same as for .se? Maybe looking into where to announce .fi-compatable highend keysets to the .fi market could be future food for thought for whomever makes yet another try at a set aimed for this market.

Nice try and good work with the GB nonetheless!

If you/anyone else ever feel renewed inspiration to try out another GMK NorDeUK set (BoW/WoB/...), here's at least one guaranteed participant :)
I would have bought 5 sets, if only it covered the FI layout fully :(
I mentioned my stance in the IC, but the OP thought it more appropriate to have ansi/uk/6u bottom row etc. Looking at the stats, there seems to be about two people who would use the ansi enter and two uk users. Seems to me that adding 17 keys (of which two are 2,25U if that matters) just for this crowd might not be the sanest solution.

I feel like I, or someone else, should try a similar set to this and see how far it would get. Fully covering FI SE DK DE, getting rid of ansi, 6u bottom row and possibly the 7u bottom row options, using a different backspace and selling for 80 to 90€ inc. VAT.

Offline TalkingTree

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Re: [GB] GMK NorDeUK
« Reply #78 on: Tue, 18 April 2017, 05:00:48 »
if only it covered the FI layout fully
[...]
getting rid of ansi, 6u bottom row and possibly the 7u bottom row options
Dropping support for modifiers would actually make it an international conversion kit which I would totally be interested in, if it was made for popular colour schemes like Skeletor and the upcoming Nautilus and Oblivion.
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Offline b9nign

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Re: [GB] GMK NorDeUK
« Reply #79 on: Tue, 18 April 2017, 05:13:53 »
All the ISO users complain and complain, but never put their money where their mouth is.
Should people just splash 140€ for this GB out of solidarity or something? To "support" this European GB? Even the Massdrop WoB failed, because it's just not a very exciting keyset. Give a European GB with Plum or something and I'm first in line.
WoB probably had the best chance of succeeding for a set like this. A beige or a dolch-type colorway might've also done well, but the fact is I've never seen a supercompatible ISO kit sell well in any GB.
GMK Dolch ISO-DE was just shipped out to its buyers, it was a GB on a German forum (not even a MK community, just a general Tech/Computer forum). Other than that, there are just not many attempts to run a GB like that.

Also another thing I noticed... the GB got barely any visibility on r/mk and r/mm. You can't just create 2-3 threads there in the span of *weeks* and expect people to see it. A day after creating a thread, it's somewhere on page 5 or 10 and no one sees it. For example, when GMK Coniferous was struggling a couple of weeks ago, threads promoting it were created daily on r/mk and r/mm. Just an observation.

Offline pomk

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Re: [GB] GMK NorDeUK
« Reply #80 on: Tue, 18 April 2017, 05:23:45 »
if only it covered the FI layout fully
[...]
getting rid of ansi, 6u bottom row and possibly the 7u bottom row options
Dropping support for modifiers would actually make it an international conversion kit which I would totally be interested in, if it was made for popular colour schemes like Skeletor and the upcoming Nautilus and Oblivion.
I wouldn't drop all mods, makes no sense to do a conversion kit of 50€ for a 170€ set that you cannot buy anymore with moq of 150, when you could just sell the same set with the conversion applied for a lot less. If things are kept in europe and everything is done at a minimal profit, we can offer stuff at half the price. For example the plum set + international kit was a total of 230€ shipped and taxed. If we can settle on a set with slightly less coverage and get rid of ansi-uk, we could sell the same thing for about 100€.

If you are talking about full international alphas, then it might make sense, as you could just buy some bungaloo set to accompany it and be done with it.

Offline TalkingTree

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Re: [GB] GMK NorDeUK
« Reply #81 on: Tue, 18 April 2017, 06:09:35 »
I wouldn't drop all mods, makes no sense to do a conversion kit of 50€ for a 170€ set that you cannot buy anymore with moq of 150, when you could just sell the same set with the conversion applied for a lot less. If things are kept in europe and everything is done at a minimal profit, we can offer stuff at half the price. For example the plum set + international kit was a total of 230€ shipped and taxed. If we can settle on a set with slightly less coverage and get rid of ansi-uk, we could sell the same thing for about 100€.

If you are talking about full international alphas, then it might make sense, as you could just buy some bungaloo set to accompany it and be done with it.
You got a point there but, again, dropping some mods might work, but then you need to decide on which ones you wanna get rid of and, ultimately some, people would be unhappy.
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Offline Petch

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Re: [GB] GMK NorDeUK
« Reply #82 on: Tue, 18 April 2017, 06:21:16 »
I'm surprised how bad it sold on geekhack. I truly hope it's only a matter of colour scheme.

This is tradition for supercompatible sets like this.

All the ISO users complain and complain, but never put their money where their mouth is. That's why so many people just add and ISO shift/enter and some blanks to their GB and call it there.

WoB probably had the best chance of succeeding for a set like this. A beige or a dolch-type colorway might've also done well, but the fact is I've never seen a supercompatible ISO kit sell well in any GB.

I wouldn't call it super compatible, most ANSI sets with a $10 UK addon are more compatible for ISO-UK (in a plethora of layouts) than this set was

Offline pomk

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Re: [GB] GMK NorDeUK
« Reply #83 on: Tue, 18 April 2017, 08:26:49 »
I wouldn't drop all mods, makes no sense to do a conversion kit of 50€ for a 170€ set that you cannot buy anymore with moq of 150, when you could just sell the same set with the conversion applied for a lot less. If things are kept in europe and everything is done at a minimal profit, we can offer stuff at half the price. For example the plum set + international kit was a total of 230€ shipped and taxed. If we can settle on a set with slightly less coverage and get rid of ansi-uk, we could sell the same thing for about 100€.

If you are talking about full international alphas, then it might make sense, as you could just buy some bungaloo set to accompany it and be done with it.
You got a point there but, again, dropping some mods might work, but then you need to decide on which ones you wanna get rid of and, ultimately some, people would be unhappy.
Yes, definitely. But starting from basics with full coverage of some locales I think would be good. I also think that people might buy in even if it does not support all possible layouts if the price point is kept extremely low (80-90€ inc. VAT). A low price would also make it feasible for supporters to buy multiple sets while not spending more than they usually do for just a single set.

Offline TalkingTree

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Re: [GB] GMK NorDeUK
« Reply #84 on: Tue, 18 April 2017, 08:38:21 »
I also think that people might buy in even if it does not support all possible layouts if the price point is kept extremely low (80-90€ inc. VAT). A low price would also make it feasible for supporters to buy multiple sets while not spending more than they usually do for just a single set.
If a full set at the price point is even possible, then yes, I believe it's worth dropping some mods.
We'll know when it happens.
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Offline My_Thoughts

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Re: [GB] GMK NorDeUK
« Reply #85 on: Tue, 18 April 2017, 08:48:33 »

All the ISO users complain and complain, but never put their money where their mouth is. That's why so many people just add and ISO shift/enter and some blanks to their GB and call it there.


It has a lot to do with White on Black.  WoB failed to hit MOQ on massdrop. People are not going to spend £100+ on WoB. 


Offline Krakob

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Re: [GB] GMK NorDeUK
« Reply #86 on: Tue, 18 April 2017, 15:03:43 »
Haven't had time to reply or make a write-up yet, been quite busy. Sorry!
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Offline Felion

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Re: [GB] GMK NorDeUK
« Reply #87 on: Fri, 21 April 2017, 08:47:37 »
Silver-lining: Now I can afford one dev/tty MT3-set :/ (w/ an international kit) (but thats only b/c I had ordered 2 WOB-sets)...

I'm sad to see this one "fail" Krakob! But thank you for trying and thank you for the work you put in.

Hopefully we will see this again some day :)

P.S. 2nd silver-lining: I made 19 SEK on this due to currency-fluctuations ;) D.S
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Offline TalkingTree

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Re: [GB] GMK NorDeUK
« Reply #88 on: Wed, 26 April 2017, 05:20:51 »
Don't be a stranger Krakob, I'll still support you.
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Offline pon10

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Re: [GB] GMK NorDeUK
« Reply #89 on: Wed, 26 April 2017, 06:27:14 »
We are here! should we do a new IC? would love to help out in anyway

Offline Geroximo

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Re: [GB] GMK NorDeUK
« Reply #90 on: Thu, 27 April 2017, 18:13:34 »

All the ISO users complain and complain, but never put their money where their mouth is. That's why so many people just add and ISO shift/enter and some blanks to their GB and call it there.


It has a lot to do with White on Black.  WoB failed to hit MOQ on massdrop. People are not going to spend £100+ on WoB.

Exactly. When spending so much money you expect something better than goddamn WoB.
GMK Dolch ISO-DE (german GB) hit MOQ because it's such a nice and classic color-scheme. I bought 2 sets of it.
I was totaly ready to support this ISO GB, but dropped out as soon as OP said it was going to be WoB.

Offline Krakob

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Postmortem
« Reply #91 on: Fri, 28 April 2017, 03:38:45 »
Pardon the delay. Between IRL obligations, other community related things, and forgetfulness I postponed this writeup far too much.

Let's talk kit design.

* Colours: a bit of a miss, the white should've been CP instead of WS1 in order to match vintage sets.
* Colours, again: a lot of people just don't like WoB. An interesting design might be a better choice, but also requires some talent to pull off.
* Backspace legend: I failed to look into this sufficiently and as a result it was a pretty big turnoff for a lot of people.
* Incomplete legends: while I tried to address this as well as I could, many stated that they were not interested because of missing legends.
* Numpad: I think only one or two people raised their concerns about this. Nevertheless it may have lost some buyers. It would've presumably raised the price by more than €10 (assuming linear pricing, which is probably not quite correct).
* Non-covered languages: there were of course a decent few people who weren't buying because their locale was not covered. I believe this was primarily French. Fully covering it would've added somewhere around 15 keys, I believe.

These are the issues I found in the design itself. Most of it was a matter of compromise or taste, but it's important to know what poeple buy or don't buy.

Another significant factor was by all means the pricing. I was hoping the kit would be less than €125 shipped, but between taxes and margins, this was plain impossible. Sweden is simply an expensive county and even with the cheapest option, it was not cheaper than shipping from the US. As for the VAT, it was either buying as a consumer from GMK at 19% or buying as a Swedish company at 25%. A cheaper method would be basing the GB in a country with a lower VAT. Which ones these are, I'm not quite sure but that's easy to look up. Another way would be using dubious means in non-European countries but this would probably be illegal and quite the pain to pull off.

As for marketing, most people agreed that Reddit is the biggest source of buyers for any GB. However, this did not seem to ring true for NorDeUK. While I feel the coverage on GH and DT was sufficient, no Reddit post managed to get more than about 50 upvotes. Presumably, a lot of redditors just don't care a lot about simple sets like this. The appeal is too limited to even get the upvotes required in order to make it visible to enough people who may be interested. I certainly could've been more aggressive in the marketing, but there's also the matter of respecting the community. Reddit has its 10:1 guideline, meaning that for every self promotional submission, you should also have ten non-promotional submissions. I don't think I actually abided this rule, I just posted approx. once per week.

Lastly, the buyer locations weren't quite as expected. While the Nordic countries pulled in a good amount of buyers, Germans and Brits were underrepresented. This may be explained by the better availability of vintage sets, as well as GMK Originative in the case of Brits. With OCO putting on a sale in order to compete with Massdrop, they were basically at the same price as NorDeUK and without any risk involved.

Getting caught in the crossfire between Massdrop and Originative was very unfortunate, but I don't believe it affected us enough to change the outcome of the GB. Massdrop's failure was pretty clear all along with the 250 MOQ. Originative presumably (and honestly, I'd say hopefully because I want everybody to live the WoB memedream) cost us a few British buyers, but not any significant amounts.

That's pretty much all I can think of. So, what now?

If you are looking for a substitute:
* If you want GMK, look out for the big drops on Massdrop like Carbon and Plum. They have succeeded with their international kits and are probably your best bet for GMK right now.
* A less pricey option would be getting Varmillo keycaps. They're dye subbed PBT and legend says that you can get one by just popping them a mail. Supposedly almost but not quite Gateron PBT quality.
* Speaking of Gateron PBT, Gateron caps, be it blank or legended, are amazing quality for an amazing price. Most notable is NPKC, who sell a kit as NPKC blank Cherry profile keycaps for about €30 on Aliexpress. UK Keycaps has stocked them from time to time as well but it has been marked as 'Coming soon' for several months now, so I wouldn't count on it.
* I would also like to discourage buying from Signature Plastics, given that they have no regards for the European community. They have a contract with Massdrop resulting in them charging any other buyer far more, and when purchasing directly from PMK, they take a ridiculous shipping price and do not declare it any cheaper.

If you're wondering what happens to NorDeUK:
I personally won't be pursuing another group buy, at least not now. I do encourage those who want to to pick it up though. Learn from my mistakes and make it happen! I will be working on some other projects, but nothing concrete yet, so no announcements.

Thank you for participating and reading,
Jakob :cool:
Ducky Shine 2 (MX Blue, white backlight) • Obins Anne Pro (Gateron Brown) • Model M • XD60

Offline TalkingTree

  • Posts: 2452
  • Location: Italy (142)
    • My projects
Re: Postmortem
« Reply #92 on: Fri, 28 April 2017, 04:12:43 »
Another way would be using dubious means in non-European countries but this would probably be illegal and quite the pain to pull off.
Not illegal per se but tricky, because the thin line is crossed when the GB handler ships out goods underdeclared. Furthermore, since this is basically an european group buy, we would need a GB handler who lives in an european country outside the EU, such as EFTA states, balkan countries or microstates. This pretty much narrows the options down to Norway.

If you are looking for a substitute:
[...]
One other option is JTK, they have greatly improved their tooling and products and their stuff cost significantly less than GMK and the Cherry profile they use could be mixed with actual OG Cherry sets or GMK's.

I personally won't be pursuing another group buy, at least not now.
That's sad but totally understandable. The GB failed but you actually tried and did a good job. I really hope you change your mind.
My opensource projects: GH80-3000, TOAD, XMMX. Classified: stuff

Offline mik1

  • Posts: 12
Re: [GB] GMK NorDeUK (Closed; postmortem inside)
« Reply #93 on: Mon, 12 November 2018, 10:51:17 »
Hi Krakob, I have hunted the whole planet for a Swedish layout (aka "NorDe") key cap set that's white on black, doubleshot, with blank Windows keys.

I would be the first to buy 2-3 sets of your key caps. Price is not an issue, I can pay any amount per set, pain point would be around 200-300 EUR.

Is there any chance that you will make it?

Offline Daggerfall

  • Posts: 35
  • Location: Copenhagen
Re: [GB] GMK NorDeUK (Closed; postmortem inside)
« Reply #94 on: Tue, 13 November 2018, 02:00:29 »
Just dropped by to give props and thank you for the ISO-love. Hope everything went well!