Why are Topre switches more suitable for long-time typing than Cherry MX?

[hzblzly]

Hi All, I have a Filco Cherry MX Red and a Filco Cherry MX Brown, and I have a job that involves both writing articles and coding for ~14 hours per day. By the end of the day my fingers always ache (especially the pinky) when I use either of the two keyboards (the MX Red is a little better).

I always heard people say that keyboards with Topre switches are more suitable for long-time typing. Let's assume a Realforce 87U with all-45g and a Filco Red (or any other Red switch with a steel board). Why is the former more suitable for long-time typing than the latter? Is it because the former has a softer bottom out? I can understand that HHKB will have a softer bottom out because it does not use a steel board, but Realforce does use one, so I am not sure whether a Realforce will make long-time typing less painful.

Thank you in advance for your advice.

[HotRoderX]

just my 2 cents and is completely subjective and must be framed by I never used Topre.

But I think it comes down to preference.. there is no silver bullet switch thats better then another. Personally I find typing on Gateron Blacks to be end game level typing so far out of all the keys I have tried. I can type for hours on them with out fatigue.

When I compare them to my

MX Clears can type about hour before major hand cramps. I blame the bottom out force of 95 grams for this

MX Blacks I can type for two-three hours up to four but after that I start to have my hands go numb from typing.. they are a heavy switch and kinda scratchy and not extremely smooth.

MX blues I can type on for hours and hours there like the Gateron blacks I can type on them all day! Except that click drives me insane sometimes thus making typing past a certain point unbearable. 

MX Browns I had a keyboard with browns and truthfully I just hated them... I could type reasonably well on them but the light key presses where not for me. I tended to tire of typing on them after just 30-45mins cause of typos and what not

Last switch I give example of is my Mod-M switches! These switches are nice and I can type on them so far for long long periods of time with out any fatigue at all. I prefer them to MX clears hands down. They are like what I wish clears where? There smooth there nicely weighted and don't have that 95 gram bottom out clears have.

My point is you will find people on this forum and else where that will all agree. That the above switches have there pros and cons and which one is there favorite with minimal fatigue!.

From what i have read Topre feel like a more crisp rubber dome keyboard. Which I can kinda see how that would be desirable special if you like that tactile sensation which I am sure some do. As some prefer Buckling springs of the old IBM keyboards. What this boils down to is what fits your body your hands your mental desires... Hope this helps its a lot of rambling kinda.

[Duckyreddy]

Try it in person if you can and have a go, see if you like it or not! 

[hzblzly]

That is the problem--I do not have a place to try around where I live. Even if there is a local shop selling it, it is unlikely that they will allow me to use it for one whole day to see whether I can get fatigue out of it.

The only way I can think of is to persuade someone in my workplace to buy one and then try his. Which will be hard given the price of a Realforce.

Try it in person if you can and have a go, see if you like it or not! 

[Duckyreddy]

Ah I see, hope you find something right for you! )

[Tactile]

In order to cushion the bottom out of your MX board you could install o-rings. It's cheap, non-destructive and easy to reverse if you don't like it. Just something to try while you research other keyboards.

[Findecanor]

I always heard people say that keyboards with Topre switches are more suitable for long-time typing.

That's personal preference, related only to particular individuals' typing style.

I personally have found that prolonged typing on variable Topre (30 to 50 g) have given me aches in the finger joints.
I have not experienced that with Cherry MX Blue or Cherry MX Clear: I don't bottom out on those - most presses stop right after tactile feedback, but that is my typing style. Others' typing style might be different.
I do find Cherry MX Black, Red (and sometimes MX Brown) tiring because of lack of (much) tactile feedback: I always press then down more than necessary. Therefore, they are stiffer for me, even if they have lighter springs than MX Clear on paper - it is the total energy expended that counts, not the peak force.

[OfTheWild]

I used to have a variable RF87U that was wonderful to type on for long periods of time. I can definitely say now I'm doing most of my typing on MX (Pandas) at work. I dont have any fatigue, but i think getting the board set up in a position to relieve tendon inflammation helps.

[hzblzly]

In order to cushion the bottom out of your MX board you could install o-rings. It's cheap, non-destructive and easy to reverse if you don't like it. Just something to try while you research other keyboards.

Most people say they feel bad after installing the o-rings. The QMX-Clip (https://uniqey.net/en/news/qmx-clip) from GMK seems a better choice but I cannot find any place that I can buy them.

[hzblzly]

I used to have a variable RF87U that was wonderful to type on for long periods of time. I can definitely say now I'm doing most of my typing on MX (Pandas) at work. I dont have any fatigue, but i think getting the board set up in a position to relieve tendon inflammation helps.

Do you still remember whether the bottom out of the RF87U is hitting the steel board?

[Duckyreddy]

In order to cushion the bottom out of your MX board you could install o-rings. It's cheap, non-destructive and easy to reverse if you don't like it. Just something to try while you research other keyboards.

Most people say they feel bad after installing the o-rings. The QMX-Clip (https://uniqey.net/en/news/qmx-clip) from GMK seems a better choice but I cannot find any place that I can buy them.

O-rings really isn't my cup of tea but it sure does the job of reducing bottoming out noise and a little key travel distance,
As Tactile mentioned, it is indeed a nondestructive and easy to reverse solution
For me, the o-rings really impacted the whole experience on my boards that I've tested but again, you can always just take them off if you don't like it. 

[OfTheWild]

I used to have a variable RF87U that was wonderful to type on for long periods of time. I can definitely say now I'm doing most of my typing on MX (Pandas) at work. I dont have any fatigue, but i think getting the board set up in a position to relieve tendon inflammation helps.

Do you still remember whether the bottom out of the RF87U is hitting the steel board?

Do you mean are the caps hitting the plastic tops of the slider housing? no. The sliders just mash the rubber dome down and bounce back. The cool part of the variable weight is that its really light on the pinkie keys so your forearms dont get sore after a while.

[typo]

Subjective. Everyone is different. I use switches that are about 30% stiffer than Clears. Custom. I have no problem typing for up to 16 hours straight. I have several Realforce and HHKB. Among many others. The board with said switches is my daily driver. Topre, even 55G is much too light and "mushy" for me. Of course this is entirely personal opinion as is everyone else's.  If One particular board, or switch for that matter was universally the best there would be only one keyboard on the market. With one switch. Seeing as Cherry has a number of switches, Topre has a few combinations. Obviously there is not "one size fit's all". If that was the case no other board would sell. Which ultimately would limit the market to the one board scenario I mentioned. Then you get into things like Ergodox, Which TP4 will be here shortly to proclaim st the best. Cherry outsells Topre by many units. The real issue is that many Cherry based boards overall quality is sorely lacking. Topre, other than the RGB you will get the quality. There are so many choices and hey all sell, so it is simply up to an individual to choose. I would not say a Topre switch is "better" than it's Cherry counterpart. Just different. Many people prefer Topre but Cherry has the bigger market segment. You must realize $5 rubber domes outsell all of these combined. For whatever that is worth.

[hzblzly]

I used to have a variable RF87U that was wonderful to type on for long periods of time. I can definitely say now I'm doing most of my typing on MX (Pandas) at work. I dont have any fatigue, but i think getting the board set up in a position to relieve tendon inflammation helps.

Do you still remember whether the bottom out of the RF87U is hitting the steel board?

Do you mean are the caps hitting the plastic tops of the slider housing? no. The sliders just mash the rubber dome down and bounce back. The cool part of the variable weight is that its really light on the pinkie keys so your forearms dont get sore after a while.

What I mean is the steel board holding the switches, the layer you see after removing the key caps. Will this board be hit by anything when typing?

[OfTheWild]

I used to have a variable RF87U that was wonderful to type on for long periods of time. I can definitely say now I'm doing most of my typing on MX (Pandas) at work. I dont have any fatigue, but i think getting the board set up in a position to relieve tendon inflammation helps.

Do you still remember whether the bottom out of the RF87U is hitting the steel board?

Do you mean are the caps hitting the plastic tops of the slider housing? no. The sliders just mash the rubber dome down and bounce back. The cool part of the variable weight is that its really light on the pinkie keys so your forearms dont get sore after a while.

What I mean is the steel board holding the switches, the layer you see after removing the key caps. Will this board be hit by anything when typing?

The topre sliders are in these plastic blocks... those blocks then snap into a plate. None of it comes in contact with the key caps in my experience.

[Tactile]

What I mean is the steel board holding the switches, the layer you see after removing the key caps. Will this board be hit by anything when typing?

I've never seen a keyboard designed to have the keycaps strike anything, including my Realforce 87UB55. As you type the switch bottoms out internally. The keycaps do not strike the plate or anything else.

[Findecanor]

The QMX-Clip (https://uniqey.net/en/news/qmx-clip) from GMK seems a better choice but I cannot find any place that I can buy them.

From what I have seen, the plate-mounted version of the silencing clips would not fit on stabilised keys on the Filco (all keys that are at least 2 units long). The clip would be in the way of the stabiliser wire.
Also, they were made for keycaps in Cherry profile and you would need an additional O-ring anyway to make them work with Filco's stock keycaps.

I am also not sure how well they would help the feel. They are used mostly for sound damping.

BTW, I have seen the plate-mounted QMX-clips only on Massdrop.
Zeal PCs also sell a similar bracket called Zealencio, for plate-mounted switches but they are much pricier...
In tests, the Zealencios have not been as effective at sound damping as QMX-clips. I use Zealencios in a keyboard that is pretty loud anyway and I don't think they make much difference in this particular keyboard other than reducing the pre-travel a little bit.

[Findecanor]

Another thing with our flat keyboards is that our hands don't meet each key straight on, meaning that the fingers are not precisely aligned with the axis along which switch sliders move. Many presses can be a little bit skewed and I suspect that this could be the cause of some finger joint problems.

The only way to avoid this would be to use a key with a column-oriented layout, such as the ErgoDox or the contoured Kinesis. I have not used the ErgoDox much but I feel that on the Kinesis, the Cherry MX Brown switches feel a whole lot different than on a regular row-staggered keyboard.

[Polymer]

If you're pinky finger is aching..try a Realforce variable...sounds weird at first but you really do get used to it quick..and then it all makes perfect sense...

I switch between Uniform Topre, Cherry and Variable Topre...Anytime I need to type for a long time, Variable is the switch of choice...if I use it for too long, the uniform keyboards all take a bit of getting used to (My pinky gets tired). 

I hate it for gaming...but as far as just pure typing..I think the only thing that might be better (or might not since it doesn't exist) is a variable Topre in an ergo format..

[OfTheWild]

As a side note to the continued recommendation for a RF variable, I originally built my Whitefox with variable weighted springs in Cherry MX Clears. I basically followed the setup for the variable realforce but with 60g, 62, and then stock clears in the center. It was pretty awesome honestly. I did end up removing them and going to mod-m's though.

[dante]

Realforce Variable or a Plum with 35g domes.

[ander]

In order to cushion the bottom out of your MX board you could install o-rings. It's cheap, non-destructive and easy to reverse...

Most people say they feel bad after installing the o-rings...

I must agree with Tactile. There's no need to theorize; just try some. You can get them embarrassingly cheaply on eBay, and if you don't like them, remove them—it's no big deal.

Yes, they shorten the key travel a bit. But typing styles are so varied, you may find you prefer the shorter throw. I know I do with MX reds, which otherwise are way too light and "tappy" for me (due to bottoming out).

[opensecret]

I sometimes type all day on a Realforce variable, and sometimes on a WASD board with Cherry browns.  I like both and don't find a difference in terms of fatigue,  Neither leaves me with pain.  I have o-rings on the Cherry board, which definitely soften the blow in bottoming out, so I agree with Tactile that it's well worth a try--o-rings are cheap and very easy to install and remove.  (I only put them on the alphabet keys, which are the ones I pound the most.)  I know some people don't like o-rings, but I love them and I've put them on every Cherry board I've owned.

[Coffee]

There's a few keyboards that have become my favorite "long-term" typing boards:
1. Anne Pro Gateron Browns (have one with Gateron Blues as well, but too fatiguing due to increased activation force). Would love to try Gateron Reds one day, as I also like Cherry Reds.
2. Leopold FC750R PD with Cherry Reds- great board, love the stock keycaps, love the sound of cherry reds too on this board
3. I also love my Realforce Topre variable. This is my "lets get **** done" board
4. Plum 84 with 35g Topre switches are nice too- but even with the springs installed, I feel like the keys just take a little bit too long to rebound back in place, giving it a "sluggish" feel to the board. Honestly if not for that I would love this board a lot more. May try the custom 45/55g domes on eBay sometime in the future.

Each have their own personalities. Each are irreplaceable for what they do.

[shadowku]

There are bigger improvements you can do that will go a longer way with comfort if you're actually typing that much. I think getting a comfortable ergonomic chair (I prefer Herman Miller) and a desk that's at a proper height will help your comfort far more than getting different key switches. But if you're content with your desk and chair setup or if those are out of your control, then there are other small improvements that you can make. I got a large desk mat that my keyboard and mouse sit on and that has helped further dampen my key strokes. Small comfort but I don't like to type long term without it now.

As for key switches for comfort, I found that getting my HHKB, which is lubed and hypersphere'd, did help my comfort levels.The key switches far smoother than my cherry-browns and my Novatouch (NVT does not feel like Topre to me). I've since sold them. I think the thing about Topre is that it's very smooth and it feels very consistent. It's probably more of a preference though. I definitely took a chance with the HHKB because I had no opportunity to test it first. I just figured that at worst, I could sell it with minimal loss.

If it's difficult to acquire a Topre board, you could also adjust your current board like adjusting the height, or adjusting your keycaps (switching from OEM profile to cherry profile made a difference for me, I like the lower height).

Another thing I feel is that if you're coming from a full-size, getting a smaller keyboard helps because your body will be in a more neutral position when using the keyboard plus the mouse. I can't quite use full-sized keyboards anymore because it forces me to sit a bit awkwardly. I also try to use my keyboard as much as possible (I've switched to using VIM in XCode) which has also helped a bit.

[romevi]

Because Topre eight nine.

[superpiya]

Topre is good for long-time typing because of the cushioned feel of topre bottom out. But some will say it's too light. I have typed on mx clears, topre 45g, and zealios 67g for many months and never had any problems. The funny thing is, I tried topre 55g for two days and felt fatigue on my left fingers.

[Hordak]

Yes, with a mechanical switch you get a hard contact at the bottom. With a rubber dome, there is a cushion in between.

O-rings and standard foam pads shorten the key travel too much in my experience.

Topre's con is that the domes don't last that long. Although I haven't used MX that heavy to compare, but after 1-2 years the domes loose tactility and become stiffer. Though if you fall in love with the tactility, you'll shell for it. I suspect 45g - while not as heavenly as 55g - is best for prolonged typing. The HHKB layout will benefit most developers and additionally alleviate some of the stresses of coding.

[davkol]

Why are Topre switches more suitable for long-time typing than Cherry MX?

Are they?

Yes, with a mechanical switch you get a hard contact at the bottom. With a rubber dome, there is a cushion in between.

O-rings and standard foam pads shorten the key travel too much in my experience.

Bottoming out is optional. Springs with a steep force/travel curve help avoid the hard impact at the bottom. That's why I'm using "ghost blacks" (linear with a spring similar to stock MX Clear).

There are internally damped switches as well, ranging from old Alps SKCM (e.g., in AEK2) to current MX Silent switches. That and damping clips.

The HHKB layout will benefit most developers and additionally alleviate some of the stresses of coding.

You're apparently cut off from reality. Majority of development happens in IBM CUA-influenced environments, that aren't suited for usage with HHKB layout at all.

[Polymer]

Topre's con is that the domes don't last that long. Although I haven't used MX that heavy to compare, but after 1-2 years the domes loose tactility and become stiffer.

I haven't experienced this at all...and mine are well beyond 1-2 years old...

[ideus]

Anecdotal experiences are isolated biased reports; at their best. When serious experimental facts and data be available, that will give us actual hints on the subject. Until then, let each one use what fits her needs best, according with her very own opinion.

[superpiya]

Yes, with a mechanical switch you get a hard contact at the bottom. With a rubber dome, there is a cushion in between.

O-rings and standard foam pads shorten the key travel too much in my experience.

Topre's con is that the domes don't last that long. Although I haven't used MX that heavy to compare, but after 1-2 years the domes loose tactility and become stiffer. Though if you fall in love with the tactility, you'll shell for it. I suspect 45g - while not as heavenly as 55g - is best for prolonged typing. The HHKB layout will benefit most developers and additionally alleviate some of the stresses of coding.

I can confirm. The rubber domes become stiffer, but they definitely don't loose tactility. My type-s is from year 2012, the bottom right "Meta" and "Alt" is the least used keys and now they feel really close to 55g. Other than those two, every other keys especially the alphanumeric ones are still very soft and feel really close to my 45g pro2 from year 2015.

Topre's con is that the domes don't last that long. Although I haven't used MX that heavy to compare, but after 1-2 years the domes loose tactility and become stiffer.

I haven't experienced this at all...and mine are well beyond 1-2 years old...

They don't loose tactility. The domes only become stiffer if you don't use them.

[Polymer]

Yeap..sorry, I should've specified..

I have seen them get stiffer..I have not seen them lose tactility..at all...if anything my old HHKB2 is stiffer and more tactile now than it was a long time ago...

[sush]

By the end of the day my fingers always ache (especially the pinky)

Realforce 87UB with variable weights was made for you.

[K3lp_Boy]

I've heard of people buying HHKBs off of Amazon to try them out, then returning them if they don't like it (if you have Prime, I believe it's a 30 day return window)

[JunkFace]

Just pull the trigga *****.  )

You won't regret it.

[typo]

I am using modified clears with about 120g actuation force! I type on it four hours at a time. As we all agree this is preference.

[shadowku]

I am using modified clears with about 120g actuation force! I type on it four hours at a time. As we all agree this is preference.

You must have Popeye's forearms

[Polymer]

I am using modified clears with about 120g actuation force! I type on it four hours at a time. As we all agree this is preference.

Not just preference but also what you eventually get used to.  For sure you can build up endurance to use something crazy like what you have...it just takes time and practice...

But beyond that there is actual wear and tear on your fingers..the harder they work the more wear and tear you experience...at some point you will want to consider what you're using vs. what you might want to "get used to using" for the sake of longevity..

[typo]

It is kind of a unique situation. I am honestly over 7 feet tall and weigh almost 400 pounds, which is actually reasonable weight if built. As I just mentioned All my life I have been ripped. In my retirement I have worked out 3+ hours a day. Previously years ago I wans only able to work out an hour. My Biceps are very large. I do not know about wear on my fingers but I even exercise those! I am by no means bragging. Just explaining why in the world this would be comfortable to me. I had to have those springs made and it was a lot of money because I only wanted 300 of them. Their minimum run is usually 10,000 springs. Anyways it has been completely comfortable for years. I do not bottom out. On say, blues I would push them out the back of the plate. That is a joke of course but I would certainly bottom them out. sure, there is the issue of control for anyone but I just really prefer this. I figure after 15 years of this at my age I would have sore knuckles or whatever already. I quickly back then decided even clears were to lite.

Of course I would recommend something like this for very few people. I am not sure I would generally recommend blues either though perhaps browns for most people. As far as Topre even the uniform tall 55g is mush to me but it is in fact much better than actual mechanical switches as bottoming out does not really matter on it.

I fully agree, most people could safely get used to any cherry switch or Topre. Sticking in springs like this I would not recommend to really anyone. I will admit I lack control to bottom them out. I do not study martial arts but am simply a large body builder. So brute force is what I am used to. Of course I do not accidently hurt my wife or Grandchildren. That is less fine motor and more gross motor. I can control my gross motor but It just comes naturally to mash keys for me.  I do not intentially slam them or anything just "normal" usage but was always bottoming anything out. I know I could learn better but at this point it does not really matter anymore IMO.

[dorkvader]

once you get used to it, topre 30g uniform is very comfortable for long periods, but you have to be careful to not bottom out. I would say that's true for most keybaords; don't bottom out and it's quite nice for long periods. That said I don't have to type for 14 hours a day.

[Polymer]

Unless you have a lot of resistance at the bottom, not bottoming out means you're losing out on speed..that's just a fact.

I can see not bottoming out with 30g Topre if you type very lightly and give up speed..but why bother?

It is a complete farce that people think they shouldn't bottom out...all you're giving up is speed...

That isn't the same as saying slam the hell out of the keys..it just means in trying to control how lightly to press the keys to prevent yourself from bottoming out, you're just giving up speed...you can achieve the same level of low impact on your fingers and not lose the speed by making it so you're typing fast/hard enough but not slamming the hell out of it..

Of course, open to someone proving me wrong as I've left this as an open challenge...show yourself typing without bottoming at a fast typing speed on video..because everyone that has tried has failed..

[jcoffin1981]

I prefer not bottoming out, but I prefer MX Brown to most switches I've tried.  I have also noticed that I type faster on scissor switches than mechanical switches.  I agree with someone's opinion that a very steep force curve would be beneficial to fast typists because they can press hard and not feel fatigue on the first 2/3 of the keystroke, and the bottom would be cushioned and effectively shorten the keystroke and without jarring the joints. 

If anybody knows a switch like this please let me know as I'm always looking greener grass.  I want to try Matias but I understand that the bottom of the stroke does not stiffen so this would be contradictory to this philosophy.

[Hordak]

I recently got a Realforce 45g after 3 years of training on HHKBs. First impression, the keys felt real mushy. After a while - an hour or so typing on keybr.com - I unexpectedly got to preferring the RF's 45gs. Strange that the switches grew that much on me. The "mushy feeling" made way to the pure pleasure of a pronounced, contained, precise key stroke. Oh.. the echoing feedback of a metal plate... pure bliss. That made me curious though: I have a 55g incoming. Hard to pre-judge, but I suspect the weight will be too much for me.

EDIT: https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=91269.msg2547466#msg2547466