Wanna Switch - Colemak?

[noctua]

I have changed the number's layout back again to the orginal US style, it is more pleasant.
The symbols " and ? have unfavorable positions on the German variant and {[]} are
plain and emotional an disaster.. ;-)

As you can see on the chart, my previous QWERTY speed was ~70 wpm, and today with
Colemak i'm on the way. I am most eager..

[lethjakman]

I use colemak! It's great, I've noticed the greatest benefit comes from not speed, but ease of typing. Especially on uncomfortable keyboards like my netbook, it's still much easier to type. If you keep using qwerty every once in a while, you will be able to switch back on the fly as well.

[noctua]

You are right, no dancing on the board instead doing it more "calmer" or even in an comfortable way.
It's only an personal thing, to see if the "travel-reduced" Colemak layout comparable to the old
Qwerty in terms of ego-speed-tests.. ;-)

I have Qwerty total neglected in all the Colemak practice time..

[noctua]

I have these days expiremented with various angels with my adjustable prototype.
Position (a) is the standard and was ok, personally position (b) was the most
comfortable for me. Surprisingly positions (c, d) was very strange to type
on (then the keyboard is near to you, it becomes uncomfortable..).



Today after six weeks of Colemak practicing, up to <60 WPM are comfortable possible, but it
will take some time before the "old" flow comes back, without the permanent "intern focus"..
Yesterday i had an dayfly lucky home run with 77 WPM -- but surprisingly with
position (a).. hhhmmm should i convert back?

[HaaTa]

B seems to be the optimal position for me as well. Otherwise some of the keys tend to be more difficult to use.

[noctua]

After some days of experiencing with position B, i have the subjective impression
that i reach more accuracy (WPM is better), then i use an 0° degree angle instead
 of the most used ~22° degree. I use now an distance d = ~9 cm. Also i found
it comfortable then the keyboard half has an slant position like the
µTron keyboart..

[Kira]

I just started using COLEMAK today. Last week I tried using DVORAK but giving up those shortcuts was too much for me. Anyways, I've been practicing for an hour now and am averaging somewhere around 15-24WPM. Sometimes I might go as low as 9 if I "forgot" where a key is. So far so good.

I hear that when people switch to mechanical keyboards they begin to type much slower because they aren't used to the keyboard so I'm thinking why not learn a new keyboard layout with a new keyboard! Also I hear learning how to NOT bottom out your keys also slows you down so if I type in COLEMAK, I'll learn to type in a more comfortable way and ALSO learn NOT to bottom out my keys.

[noctua]

I was satisfied with my Qwerty skills an my rubber dome keyboard, until the day if found
this forum here. Since i have build my own clicky keyboard from scratch, programming
controllers, have learned the Colemak layout and experiencing currently with keyboards
located in various positions..

So yeah this forum let you make things you never have heard before.. ;-)

As you can see, with each week of particing Colemak i comes closer to
my old Qwerty speed.. -- but in an comfortable "calmer" manner!



Hint: if you become frustrated or you hand stressed, during all the Colemak
practicing, make an break!

[MahBoi]

I have seen here a small minority of "typists" that use a non-standard layout,
i'm sure we have also Dvorak "typists" here..

Guilty as charged :smile:

Actually, I switched over to Dvorak only a couple of weeks ago. Of course, it was pretty frustrating initially having to type at 15 wpm at first, but some constant practice has made the switch fairly painless.

After the first week, I could type 40 wpm fairly accurately.

Today marks the end of my second week with Dvorak, and I'm getting 60 wpm comfortably.

My normal speed with QWERTY was about 80 wpm, so if I can get up there within a couple of months, I'll be satisfied.

The keyboard shortcuts didn't take long to get used to. If anything, it's a minor inconvenience to move my hand over for ctrl-x, ctrl-v, etc.

The main thing that I've been doing is just trying to keep a steady pace/rhythm while typing. I still have the occasional brain fart, but overall I've grown accustomed to this layout pretty quickly, and I'm liking it a lot. It feels very natural.

Colemak seems like another good alternative for QWERTY, but right now I'm dead set on getting back to my normal speed with Dvorak.

[noctua]

Nice to see and hear from other "typists" here in the forum, which use or learn
different layouts, regardless of their age! Other may think why we do so, hmm
i will give you an short answer: (n) years have past, (n) years with Qwerty..  ;-)


Today after 8 weeks of colemak practicing..

[noctua]

Today after 10 weeks, i'm knocking on the 80 WPM door. With a little bit more
practicing (time) i believe that i outbid my "old" Qwerty niveau in an "calmer"
way.. ;-)

[noctua]

So after 14 weeks, i have opened the 80 WPM door.. it has taken a little bit more time.
I have long thought about, how can i improve my typing skills, unfortunately i haven't long
fingers that can help me in this case.. ;-) Basically i practice each morning (except the
weekend) the typically colemak lesson plus the top most english word lesson, this is the
one half. The other half that has helped me was to type in an steady rhythm, the most
important thing thereby is: do it  r e l a x e d. I was surprised about this minor but
enormous fact..

Meanwhile i type faster english than german.. ;-)

[Keymonger]

I've used computers since I was a little kid, but didn't learn touch-typing until a few months ago. Starting in July, I went for Dvorak and haven't regretted it. Previously I could type as fast as 100 wpm with Qwerty. I'm at around 50-70 wpm now with Dvorak, but speed is not my concern at all. It's a little disappointing to see touch-typing be encouraged as something you can type faster with... it's not about speed, it's about comfort. Using a keyboard without hardly ever looking at it is an absolute joy! The most fun I'm having is using numbers... this always slowed me down because I had to look at the numbers, the topmost row. But even this can be done without looking, I never even knew that!

Actually, when I was 14 I recall touch-type lessons at school. But it was kind of hard to get used to so I went back to my old ways of typing, which entailed looking at the keys every once in a while and using 6 fingers or so... I think it's good they tried teaching this at high school, but for me it was too late. At home I spent way more time on a computer than school, so those lessons weren't helpful.

I have more thoughts about touch-typing, keyboards, Qwerty, key layout configuration, and alternative keyboard layouts, but I'm still in the process of thinking about all these things. It feels too premature to expound my thoughts at the moment. I will say this: learn to touch-type, focus on accuracy plus comfort, and enjoy typing more than ever before. There Is No Keyboard.

[rickysio]

I started learning Colemak exactly two weeks ago, cold turkey-ing after the first 3 days, abandoned the lessons after 2 days of trying them. I used to type in QWERTY in about 80+WPM (peak was 89 IIRC) but now with Colemak I'm languishing about 37WPM.

[Azuremen]

This reminds me a bit of when I switched to Dvorak a few years ago when I was doing some programming. The short cuts killed it for most of the time, though I was at 40WPM when I was relaxed, and could switch to QWERTY on the fly.

I see Colemak has the C and V keys in the same place though... Might have a new way to kill some time it seems.

[alec]

Let me insert my two cents into this rollercoaster ride.

While not Colemak, I, too, know several keyboard layouts. QWERTY English, Estonian (almost same but most symbols shuffled to other keys) and ЙЦУКЕН Russian (which has no legend of being designed for slowing down typists).
Experience was as mentioned here. Learning is slow. Mantaining speed requires daily practice. But if these layots are necessary in daily life its no problem.

Learning Dvorak or Colemak is interesting as personal achievement. But in hundreds of stories how someone learned new layout, only one or two actually stuck with it later on. It can't really be used everywhere all the time.

You become incompatible. Incompatible with software, hardware, other people.

For people unsure about whether to switch for ergonomic purposes, I suggest the alternative h omerow position. Instead of ASDF JKL; use SDFV NJKL

This achieves instant ergo-keyboard feel on any regular keyboard. My hands are relaxed and typing is very pleasant.

And lastly for those that know qwerty at 80 wpm level and want to switch to achieve better average speed - forget it. You get much better results putting those practice hours into qwerty. Instead you'll be making more errors and less speed in both layouts.

[rickysio]

Well I don't know about other layouts but with Colemak all you need is a thumbdrive and the pkl program.

[Keymonger]

You become incompatible. Incompatible with software, hardware, other people.

That's only a concern if you're working on other people's keyboards all the time. If most time is spent on your own computer and keyboard, it's no issue at all. I switched to Dvorak, but I've used Qwerty from time to time without even noticing. At the library, with my electronic dictionary, and more. I'm not fast when using other people's computers, but I never was. And I don't exactly intend to do a lot of typing at the library.

For people unsure about whether to switch for ergonomic purposes, I suggest the alternative h omerow position. Instead of ASDF JKL; use SDFV NJKL

Show Image

This achieves instant ergo-keyboard feel on any regular keyboard. My hands are relaxed and typing is very pleasant.

That looks interesting, but it looks like the topmost row becomes difficult to reach if you do it like that.

And lastly for those that know qwerty at 80 wpm level and want to switch to achieve better average speed - forget it. You get much better results putting those practice hours into qwerty. Instead you'll be making more errors and less speed in both layouts.

I disagree. I used to be lightning fast at times, but now I'm slower with Dvorak, and more content. Why? Because it's far more comfortable. Big deal if I was fast... my hands were all over the place with Qwerty. It's even worse when you try to touch-type Qwerty. The lazy method of not using a home row is better for Qwerty, in my experience. It's a pretty much worthless layout.

[HaaTa]

Show Image

Very interesting scheme. It also solves the difficulty of getting to the center keys.
Unfortunately it fails on the Tab and \ | key, also a bit difficult for 1 and Backspace.
Interesting, nonetheless, though.

[Azuremen]

Well I don't know about other layouts but with Colemak all you need is a thumbdrive and the pkl program.

With Dvorak, I used a small program called DVassist that I could just run from a flash drive, hit a key combo, and instantly toggle between QWERTY and Dvorak in Windows. Was nice, because I could easily and quickly switch between them, so using Photoshop wasn't a nightmare of learning hotkeys again.

[Daniel Beaver]

I finally gave up on Colemak, but in the process I found a very neat autohotkey script that allows you to set a colemak layout for typing, but use the normal shortcut keys. Whenever a modifier key is pressed, it reverts the rest of the keyboard back to Qwerty so that normal hotkeys are used. I find this rather essential, since hotkeys become very awkward with alternate layouts.

Code: [Select]

Menu, Tray, Icon, main.cpl, 8

; Use Scroll Lock to control keyboard ("on" is Colemak)
; and do not let Control, Alt, or Win modifiers act on Colemak
Loop {
   If GetKeyState("ScrollLock", "T")
   and !GetKeyState("Control")
   and !GetKeyState("Alt")
   and !GetKeyState("LWin")
   and !GetKeyState("RWin") {
      Suspend, Off
   } else {
      Suspend, On
   }
   Sleep, 50
}

; QWERTY to Colemak mapping

;q::q
;w::w
e::f
r::p
t::g
y::j
u::l
i::u
o::y
p::;
;[::[
;]::]

;a::a
s::r
d::s
f::t
g::d
;h::h
j::n
k::e
l::i
`;::o
;'::'

;z::z
;x::x
;c::c
;v::v
;b::b
n::k
;m::m
;,::,
;.::.
;/::/

;Backspace and Caps lock swap
;backspace::Capslock
;Capslock::backspace

Works for Dvorak too:

Code: [Select]

Menu, Tray, Icon, main.cpl, 8

; Use Scroll Lock to control keyboard ("on" is Dvorak)
; and do not let Control, Alt, or Win modifiers act on Dvorak
Loop {
   If GetKeyState("ScrollLock", "T")
   and !GetKeyState("Control")
   and !GetKeyState("Alt")
   and !GetKeyState("LWin")
   and !GetKeyState("RWin") {
      Suspend, Off
   } else {
      Suspend, On
   }
   Sleep, 50
}

; QWERTY to Dvorak mapping
-::[
=::]

q::'
w::,
e::.
r::p
t::y
y::f
u::g
i::c
o::r
p::l
[::/
]::=

;a::a
s::o
d::e
f::u
g::i
h::d
j::h
k::t
l::n
`;::s
'::-

z::`;
x::q
c::j
v::k
b::x
n::b
;m::m
,::w
.::v
/::z

[steeef]

Interested to try this, but kind of wary about dealing with mapped keys in programs like Vim. I'd have to spend time remapping everything. Nice AutoHotkey script though. I may just try it out.

[alec]

I disagree. I used to be lightning fast at times, but now I'm slower with Dvorak, and more content.

Hmm, but that sort of proves my point. Main selling argument for Colemak is that you will be typing faster because your fingers have to move less. But mostly it is not the case.

With alternative quwerty homerow you do have to move hand off it to hit Backspace.. But then it is additional incentive to be making less mistakes

[rickysio]

Hmm, but that sort of proves my point. Main selling argument for Colemak is that you will be typing faster because your fingers have to move less. But mostly it is not the case.

With alternative quwerty homerow you do have to move hand off it to hit Backspace.. But then it is additional incentive to be making less mistakes

You know, if you'd just hit the Colemak image in my signature...

Advantages
Ergonomic and comfortable – Your fingers on QWERTY move 2.2x more than on Colemak. QWERTY has 16x more same hand row jumping than Colemak. There are 35x more words you can type using only the home row on Colemak.
Easy to learn – Allows easy transition from QWERTY. Only 2 keys move between hands. Many common shortcuts (including Ctrl+Z/X/C/V) remain the same. Typing lessons available.
Fast – Most of the typing is done on the strongest and fastest fingers. Low same-finger ratio.
Multilingual – Allows to type in over 40 languages and to type various symbols, e.g. "pâté", "mañana", €, em-dash, non-breaking space.
Free – Free software released under the public domain. You don't have to buy a new keyboard, just install a program.

Realise how it doesn't mention Fast first? AKA, not key selling point.

[alec]

I disagree. I used to be lightning fast at times, but now I'm slower with Dvorak, and more content.

Hmm, but that sort of proves my point. Main selling argument for Dvorak/Colemak is that you will be typing faster because your fingers have to move less. But mostly it is not the case.

About alternative qwerty homerow: you do have to move hand off it to hit Backspace.. But then it is additional incentive to be making less mistakes

[noctua]

My burst speed with Qwerty was 83 WPM, with Colemak after 3 month 82 WPM..
True is, i have to practice daily to get my "old" speed as with Qwerty, but the
most important point now is: my hands feels comfortabler with it..

In my earlier Qwerty days i had sometimes become trouble with my left hand..

[Keymonger]

Hmm, but that sort of proves my point. Main selling argument for Dvorak/Colemak is that you will be typing faster because your fingers have to move less. But mostly it is not the case.

Disagree. When typing in English, your fingers use certain keys more and certain keys less, and other keys not so much. Proper placement of keys that are used most makes a difference. It makes sense that if you have something you reach for often, like a book on a shelf, you put it there so it can be easily and frequently reached for.

Here you can see where your fingers will be the most when you type in English (using some English text sample):



I think it makes a difference.

About alternative qwerty homerow: you do have to move hand off it to hit Backspace.. But then it is additional incentive to be making less mistakes

I used to think like that too, but with that kind of logic, you'd end up relegating the backspace all the way to the numeric keypad. Mistakes are inevitable. And it's not just mistakes, but revisions of text also make backspace an oft used key.

[woody]

Russian

Oh my, oh my. On a certain 8-bit computer the capital letters were in QWERTY, but the lower-case letters were in this (?) Russian layout. Imagine the pain.
We also have local standart () for Cyrillic layout, but most prefer phonetic QWERTY-alike layout. Change of layout at runtime kills.
________
AMC Computerized Engine Control

[noctua]

For all the infidels that believe you can't write faster with an different layout..
After 4 months of Colemak practicing i'm knocking on the 90 WPM door, my old
burst speed with Qwerty was 83 WPM, now with Colemak i reach 87 WPM..
We'll see what is after 5 month of continous practicing..

[Moogle Stiltzkin]

Colemak looks interesting, but how will it affect gamers used to WASD for movement ? Games usually come pre binded to qwerty keyboard design :/

o_O;

[Kairxa]

Hmm.. I'm wondering. Is it possible to have 2 boards at once, one having colemak layout, and the other qwerty layout?

[noctua]

I have built my own keyboard from scratch, also i have implemented an 3-layer layout,
especially for gaming i use my 3rd layer ;-)

Alternatively you use an second qwerty-keyboard, for gaming only..

[Kairxa]

Err, what does a 3 layer layout means? Also, I don't really like the idea of building boards from scratch D: Don't have the capability nor time to do it

Edit, I think I've found the answer, Portable Keyboard Layout seems useful.

[Moogle Stiltzkin]

I have built my own keyboard from scratch, also i have implemented an 3-layer layout,
especially for gaming i use my 3rd layer ;-)

Alternatively you use an second qwerty-keyboard, for gaming only..

I can't do that. I only have money for 1 decent keyboard. If colemak is as good for typing as they say i would try it, but i wouldn't do it if its gonna affect my gaming.

[Kairxa]

Use Portable Keyboard Layout, it's efficient for daily use.

[Tony]

I have touch typed in Qwerty for 15 years with the speed of 60wpm, and I have switched to Colemak for 40 days by now.

My current speed is 48wpm today, and I expect to get to the 60wpm in 3 months time. My wrists are much more calmer and relaxed.

For natural typing experience I suppose a year's time before you can type fluently without any thinking or full concentration. During that time your brain will learn many specific combinations of typing style for the Colemak layout (just like what I have experienced in learning to touchtype in Qwerty long time ago)

I haven't played much FPS games, but whenever I feel the need to play it, I will happily change the keyboard layout to Qwerty, instantly with a hotkey set up in Regional Settings (Control Panel), to have a good shooting and killing time.

By the way, WASD bunch of keys in shooting games now called WARS in Colemak layout. How appropriate!



I have gone all the way and changed my Mitsumi keyboard to Colemak layout

[noctua]

...For natural typing experience I suppose a year's time before you can type fluently without any thinking or full concentration...

I also believe that, with my full agreement -- it takes some time, beside the
gain in comfort, i also confirm the average speed improvement in my case..

[Tony]

I can't do that. I only have money for 1 decent keyboard. If colemak is as good for typing as they say i would try it, but i wouldn't do it if its gonna affect my gaming.

You can switch between Colemak, Dvorak or Qwerty through a hotkey (Regional settings under Control Panel), so your choice of layout doesn't affect your gaming at all. I use Ctrl-Shift-1 for Colemak, Ctrl-Shift-2 for Qwerty.

Whenever you type, use your favorite keyboard layout. When you play games that use WASD or other specific keys in Qwerty you get used to, then turn to Qwerty.

It is like you switch to CNN to watch news, then go to ESPN to watch soccer, then to Cartoon to watch Tom and Jerry. Just press a button.

You don't have to stick to a channel, be it CNN, ESPN or Cartoon Network. So is the layout.

[HaaTa]

Been using Colemak for a bit over a year now, no thinking whatsoever to type . I've also kept up my old QWERTY typing style for whenever it's needed, though I try not to do much serious typing with it.

Anyways, it took me a good 2 months before I was fully comfortable using Colemak (not up to my QWERTY speed mind you).

[Tony]

Here is my graph of typing speed after 40 days in Colemak:



For someone who don't know about the Colemak layout, here is a picture

[eMps]

I really like Colemak so far. I tried Dvorak and C-Dvorak before Colemak, but I didn't really like them. I started this Monday, and I'm already typing 50-55 wpm consistently. The only somewhat common letter combination I've noticed that's properly annoying to type is "you" so far. Hopefully it'll get easier over time. I'm having so much fun learning Colemak!

[Tony]

I really like Colemak so far. I tried Dvorak and C-Dvorak before Colemak, but I didn't really like them. I started this Monday, and I'm already typing 50-55 wpm consistently. The only somewhat common letter combination I've noticed that's properly annoying to type is "you" so far. Hopefully it'll get easier over time. I'm having so much fun learning Colemak!

For me "you", "which", "would", and "people" are the common words difficult to type fast in Colemak.

[chimborazo]

i'll pass. i tried it a few times but didn't like it. it certainly is superior than qwerty - speed, efficiency, accuracy, less traveling, etc

dvorak suffers from L and S, but the culprit w/ colemak is the awkward position of the vowels.

colemak is just for right-handed Hawaiians.

[msiegel]

a'ole pilikia.

wait, what's wrong with it? :-S

[chimborazo]

left-handed Hawaiians is the second suitable group for the layout, since they speak the language

[msiegel]

in english, it looks like vowels and consonants alternate a lot.

that means typing with colemak alternates hands a lot, right?

[Tony]

I am left-handed and my experience with Colemak is ok so far. My left hand is typing more a bit (Backspace in Capslock key and space).

I suppose learning a layout is a full commitment and it require at least a month with 1-2 hours per day practicing. If you never touch type before, it will be a hellish experience.

Perhaps someone should learn touch type with Qwerty before changing the layout. Otherwise the double toll of touch typing and learning a new layout is too hard on them.

[chimborazo]

in english, it looks like vowels and consonants alternate a lot.

that means typing with colemak alternates hands a lot, right?

hello msiegel

you are missing the point here.

alternation isn't my argument.

position of the vowels is.

colemak prioritizes the left hand w/ consonants, the home row - which overworks the heck out of it in the process, and fails to distribute the rows as it should. that's why, if i remember correctly, the qwerty crowd still vouches for theirs since the top row keeps up with speed at the expense of distance.

with that being said, i still think colemak is slightly ahead - ergonomically speaking, but only right-handed Hawaiians would get the most out of it.

[Tony]

In Colemak, the left pinky have to press Backspace, so the workload is pretty even between hands. This workload is not recorded in all statistics.

[symphonic1985]

I've been trying to learn Colemak, but I have to say that I'm really struggling with discomfort in my right hand. When I type QWERTY I keep my middle fingers on the top row and my index finger on J. Colemak forces me onto the home row where the shortness of my index finger becomes a huge problem. I can't imagine being comfortable unless the key heights were different. I plan to build an ergo keyboard... until then, I'm not sure that Colemak is right for me.