Model M for the Modern Age

[Dihedral]

In the past, the Model M was the standard for a high quality business keyboard. As of today, it has no equivalent. Cherry aside, there are no high quality, office orientated, reasonably priced boards. It seems strange that no company has targeted this market. A QFR type board, perhaps with a numpad, and with cherry / matias switches could sell well to companies who appreciated the benefits of high quality hardware. Yet every low cost board is targeted at the same demographic - gamers, with 1337 flashing lights and ugly stencil fonts. Is this an opportunity for a manufacturer to carve out a niche. I could see Matias or Filco building a lower cost MJ2 and selling it in bulk. Is this a non existent market, or does someone already fill this gap?

[chyros]

The Model M wasn't reasonably priced, that's the whole point. Adjusted, it would've cost around $450 nowadays. Would you pay that for any keyboard?

[tofgerl]

As I understand it hardly any of the IBM boards sold much alone. They were commonly sold with complete kits to companies who needed dozens of computers, screens, keyboards and whatever else. This was when computers were extremely expensive, so the keyboard price was hardly noticed on the invoice next to $3000 320x240 CGA displays and other things we would laugh at today.

[chyros]

Exactly. The Model M was the standard because it was given out with everything, not because it was so good. And the only reason it was so good it because they could afford it to be.

[NewbieOneKenobi]

I suppose modern companies purchasing from Unicomp, Cherry Corp or even gaming brands would have a similar effect these days.

Cherry could play the role the OP speaks about, because those boards do come reasonably priced from time to time, say, €50 ($60). I'm pretty sure it should be possible to arrange the purchase of, say, 200–300 units and pay no more than that per piece. The 'boards would then come with reasonable quality of execution, no frills, no gaming goodies, 1998-style design, and probably brown MX switches inside.

[SpAmRaY]

Leopold boards with cherry switches are very nice and not flashy and they can be bought with nice keycaps stock.

But most offices just use $5 rubber dome boards.

[engicoder]

The Model M wasn't reasonably priced, that's the whole point. Adjusted, it would've cost around $450 nowadays. Would you pay that for any keyboard?

For comparison, while the Model M listed for $250, most compatibles like a Chicony, Focus, NMB, etc were between $40 and $100.

[chyros]

Cherry could play the role the OP speaks about, because those boards do come reasonably priced from time to time, say, €50 ($60). I'm pretty sure it should be possible to arrange the purchase of, say, 200–300 units and pay no more than that per piece. The 'boards would then come with reasonable quality of execution, no frills, no gaming goodies, 1998-style design, and probably brown MX switches inside.

Personally, I would say the Model M and any Cherry board are day and night in almost every regard. The Model M is heavy, well-constructed, expensive, and made from the ground up to be a superior typing experience. Cherry boards are cheap, flimsy, light, and to me at least, lack a clear focus on what they're supposed to be.

I think the simple fact is that there is no company that has targeted the market of extremely expensive, highly durable hardware because it doesn't exist. I could buy one or possibly even several lifetimes' worth of rubber dome keyboards for the cost of what one Model M used to be. The fact IBM PCs used to come with an expensive, fantastic keyboard was just a bonus, but most companies, when given the choice, won't go for more expensive peripherals. You might find that companies that used to make extremely durable hardware (not just computer-related) have almost invariably either dropped their standards over time or gone bankrupt.

[fohat.digs]

You might find that companies that used to make extremely durable hardware ...... or gone bankrupt.

I think that this is it. Even if there were buyers, how could sellers expect return business after the market was mostly saturated?

[njbair]

When I order a staff member a new computer, I ask them if they want a new keyboard and mouse and just add it onto the lease. I think if Dell offered a ~$75 tactile mechanical, I would choose that one every time. That would only add like $3/mo.

[Dihedral]

When I order a staff member a new computer, I ask them if they want a new keyboard and mouse and just add it onto the lease. I think if Dell offered a ~$75 tactile mechanical, I would choose that one every time. That would only add like $3/mo.

Right. When companies are paying hundreds for computers, paying a little more on keyboards should be a much more widely accepted option. Also, it wards off the people who sue for RSI

[Dihedral]

The Model M wasn't reasonably priced, that's the whole point. Adjusted, it would've cost around $450 nowadays. Would you pay that for any keyboard?

Sure, it perhaps couldn't be quite as bulletproof as the Model M, but now, so many more keyboards are needed that economies of scale should work to a much larger effect. Also, we have more efficient manufacturing now. It is not hard to imagine that 450 dollar pricetag being slashed fourfold by modern technology.

[ideus]

It is doubtful that the "market" referred in the OP does actually exist.

[Dihedral]

It is doubtful that the "market" referred in the OP does actually exist.

Because... companies would much rather buy crate loads of $5 membranes?



(Who doesn't love these?)

[ideus]

It is doubtful that the "market" referred in the OP does actually exist.

Because... companies would much rather buy crate loads of $5 membranes?

Show Image

(Who doesn't love these?)

It would be great to know data pointing what companies wanted to buy keyboards priced in the hundreds.

[njbair]

At the very least I'm surprised there aren't more TKL options, rubber dome or otherwise.

[Dihedral]

It is doubtful that the "market" referred in the OP does actually exist.

Because... companies would much rather buy crate loads of $5 membranes?

Show Image

(Who doesn't love these?)

It would be great to know data pointing what companies wanted to buy keyboards priced in the hundreds.

I think that in bulk, you could have a 50 dollar mech board with reasonable if not top notch build quality and matias switches. Is that still too expensive?

[SpAmRaY]

It is doubtful that the "market" referred in the OP does actually exist.

Because... companies would much rather buy crate loads of $5 membranes?

Show Image

(Who doesn't love these?)

It would be great to know data pointing what companies wanted to buy keyboards priced in the hundreds.

I think that in bulk, you could have a 50 dollar mech board with reasonable if not top notch build quality and matias switches. Is that still too expensive?

There is no market or matias would be making boards for it.

[ideus]

It is doubtful that the "market" referred in the OP does actually exist.

Because... companies would much rather buy crate loads of $5 membranes?

Show Image

(Who doesn't love these?)

It would be great to know data pointing what companies wanted to buy keyboards priced in the hundreds.

I think that in bulk, you could have a 50 dollar mech board with reasonable if not top notch build quality and matias switches. Is that still too expensive?

There is no market or matias would be making boards for it.

This remark makes total sense, and it is my entire point, the OP is just an idea with no warrants based on facts, data or the like.

[FoxWolf1]

If you lower the price, something's got to give, and usually it's quality.

There are already plenty of cheap "plain" mechanical keyboards out there; we just don't talk about them much, since enthusiast types typically go for the higher quality plain keyboards over the cheaper plain keyboards.

[TopreFan333]

Cherry aside, there are no high quality, office orientated, reasonably priced boards.

I really do think that most people are just totally unaware that much nicer keyboards exist. I'll admit that maybe a 18 months ago, I was one of them! I was just merrily typing away on whatever keyboard happened to be in front of me. Once you take the red pill, though, there's no going back.

[fohat.digs]

it wards off the people who sue for RSI

If somebody could come up with valid data showing that good keyboards helped, even marginally, it would help get them in the door.

[KaminKevCrew]

It is doubtful that the "market" referred in the OP does actually exist.

Because... companies would much rather buy crate loads of $5 membranes?

Show Image

(Who doesn't love these?)

It would be great to know data pointing what companies wanted to buy keyboards priced in the hundreds.

I think that in bulk, you could have a 50 dollar mech board with reasonable if not top notch build quality and matias switches. Is that still too expensive?

I mean, yeah... $50 is still too expensive for large corporations. Think about it, for that $50 price tag, they could easily get 10 keyboards that work just as well for their purposes. Besides, I would argue that most mechanical keyboards would probably last about as long as a rubberdome, on average, because people wouldn't take care of them regardless. I mean, I would think that the chances of dropping something like a cup of coffee on the keyboard are somewhat higher than they would be in my home, where I take really good care of my keyboards... So, I mean, unless you could make something that was as cheap as a normal rubberdome, you aren't going to get anywhere.

As for the RSI argument, I don't think that mechanical keyboards actually fix that for the vast majority of people. For most companies, it's cheaper (on a case by case basis) to just shell out for a mechanical keyboard if a specific employee wants one, because that would cost less than any lawsuit that might happen. Other than that, I think that wrist rests are the biggest factors in reducing or eliminating RSI (That's based on my own personal experience with my own mechanical keyboards, so take it with a grain of salt, as it's not exactly scientific...) and you can get a perfectly functional wrist wrest for what, $1-2?

[tofgerl]

It doesn't help RSI, it helps us feel better in our fingers. If anything it would help with arthritis. RSI has to do with movement, not pressure.

[Dihedral]

It is doubtful that the "market" referred in the OP does actually exist.

Because... companies would much rather buy crate loads of $5 membranes?

Show Image

(Who doesn't love these?)

It would be great to know data pointing what companies wanted to buy keyboards priced in the hundreds.

I think that in bulk, you could have a 50 dollar mech board with reasonable if not top notch build quality and matias switches. Is that still too expensive?

There is no market or matias would be making boards for it.

This remark makes total sense, and it is my entire point, the OP is just an idea with no warrants based on facts, data or the like.

It is doubtful that the "market" referred in the OP does actually exist.

Because... companies would much rather buy crate loads of $5 membranes?

Show Image

(Who doesn't love these?)

It would be great to know data pointing what companies wanted to buy keyboards priced in the hundreds.

I think that in bulk, you could have a 50 dollar mech board with reasonable if not top notch build quality and matias switches. Is that still too expensive?

There is no market or matias would be making boards for it.

Fair point. I'm not saying I do have data for it, it just seems that there is potential in the area. But yes, you would definitely expect Matias to be making boards if there was such a niche.

[tofgerl]

You'd at least expect SOMEONE to...

[Altis]

The companies that would (and do) spend extra on hardware like premium peripherals are typically small companies that don't have to buy as many, can justify the expense, and don't have so many layers of managers above you to stomp it out.

I work for a very large company and absolutely everything is difficult to get -- even simple things like screwdrivers or cables that I absolutely require.

[rowdy]

At the very least I'm surprised there aren't more TKL options, rubber dome or otherwise.

Possibly because mass-market keyboards are aimed at businesses, and businesses all use spreadsheets, right?

And you NEED a numpad for spreadsheets, right?

At least that is the thinking in businesses.

Even here on GH a lot of people looking for their first mechanical keyboard will say they need full size because they do a lot of spreadsheets.  For some it is a revelation to get a TKL plus a seaparate numpad, and experience the best of both worlds.

[Dihedral]

At the very least I'm surprised there aren't more TKL options, rubber dome or otherwise.

Possibly because mass-market keyboards are aimed at businesses, and businesses all use spreadsheets, right?

And you NEED a numpad for spreadsheets, right?

At least that is the thinking in businesses.

Even here on GH a lot of people looking for their first mechanical keyboard will say they need full size because they do a lot of spreadsheets.  For some it is a revelation to get a TKL plus a seaparate numpad, and experience the best of both worlds.

It's that sort of set-in-stone way of thinking that is a real shame. I think companies would do better with TKLs and Numpads. It allows for more comfortable ergonomics (choice of which side to use numpad on and mouse closer to keyboard) and those that don't find themselves using a numpad don't have to have one cluttering up their desk.

[chyros]

At the very least I'm surprised there aren't more TKL options, rubber dome or otherwise.

Possibly because mass-market keyboards are aimed at businesses, and businesses all use spreadsheets, right?

And you NEED a numpad for spreadsheets, right?

At least that is the thinking in businesses.

Even here on GH a lot of people looking for their first mechanical keyboard will say they need full size because they do a lot of spreadsheets.  For some it is a revelation to get a TKL plus a seaparate numpad, and experience the best of both worlds.

It's that sort of set-in-stone way of thinking that is a real shame. I think companies would do better with TKLs and Numpads. It allows for more comfortable ergonomics (choice of which side to use numpad on and mouse closer to keyboard) and those that don't find themselves using a numpad don't have to have one cluttering up their desk.

I agree it's all very useful, but can you imagine how much more expensive it would be to go from cheap-as-chips RD to mech TKL plus numpad for all office workers? Surely no boss would bite into a 20+ times cost increase on any item regardless of how comfortable it is.

[kct]

Surely no boss would bite into a 20+ times cost increase on any item regardless of how comfortable it is.

Not to mention bosses typically gives huge incentives to whoever that helped the company to save money, not whoever that helped to enhance user experience at a great cost. There's also a trend of simply assigning laptops instead of a desktop PC, that's taking into account ordering a dock is often...not an option. My brother got a Dell from his company and they refused to shell out for a dock.

[ideus]

Truth be told, the reasons we have to prefer mechanical keyboards over rubber domes are so subtle that most people cannot justify the hefty prices we pay for our devices in comparison. Who pays over $100 for a single key caps set? or over $200 for a metallic case? For most people it is simple insane to do so, when a very good rubber dome, even with some ergonomics features is around $100.

[kct]

Truth be told, the reasons we have to prefer mechanical keyboards over rubber domes are so subtle that most people cannot justify the hefty prices we pay for our devices in comparison. Who pays over $100 for a single key caps set? or over $200 for a metallic case? For most people it is simple insane to do so, when a very good rubber dome, even with some ergonomics features is around $100.

A rather saddening truth from the fact that the enthusiast market constitute about a single digit percentage.

[SamirD]

I'm pretty sure it should be possible to arrange the purchase of, say, 200–300 units and pay no more than that per piece. The 'boards would then come with reasonable quality of execution, no frills, no gaming goodies, 1998-style design, and probably brown MX switches inside.

Cherry could play the role the OP speaks about, because those boards do come reasonably priced from time to time, say, €50 ($60). I'm pretty sure it should be possible to arrange the purchase of, say, 200–300 units and pay no more than that per piece. The 'boards would then come with reasonable quality of execution, no frills, no gaming goodies, 1998-style design, and probably brown MX switches inside.

I think the simple fact is that there is no company that has targeted the market of extremely expensive, highly durable hardware because it doesn't exist. I could buy one or possibly even several lifetimes' worth of rubber dome keyboards for the cost of what one Model M used to be. The fact IBM PCs used to come with an expensive, fantastic keyboard was just a bonus, but most companies, when given the choice, won't go for more expensive peripherals. You might find that companies that used to make extremely durable hardware (not just computer-related) have almost invariably either dropped their standards over time or gone bankrupt.

Cherry makes many, many point-of-sale keyboards.  In fact, I think they are the leader.  I find them in the cdw outlet section all the time.

I think you've nailed it on the head about the market.  Especially today with the advent of a globalized economy (I mean just look at where we're all from), if there is a market--even a niche one--it gets filled.

Computers used to be really, really expensive.  And because they needed to replace the typewriters that were comparatively cheap and readily available, something had to be really familiar--the keyboard.  Just listen to an M and then the sound of a typewriter--it's only slightly different.  The model F is even more typewriter-like.  The keyboard was the one UI tool that was familiar--everything else was new, so IBM made sure that UI was as close as they could make it.  The older computers were also made solid.  If you've ever lifted an old IBM AT case, you'll find it to be much heavier empty than a modern day computer is completely full.

The days of 'built-to-last a lifetime' are nearly gone.  Most everything today--even something built well--has a lifespan of maybe 20 years.  And that's sad because in this day and age of recycle, reuse, blah blah, you'd never have to throw it away if it never broke in the first place!  Plus, you can't build on anything expecting it  to work day-in day-out anymore.  Not devices; and even people aren't as reliable anymore.  Once in a while there's a backlash and quality is a fad for a while, but then it disappears when the cheaper copy-cats come out, and then the process seems to restart.  It's actually an unnecessary rollercoaster ride, but it's the demand for cheaper products that has caused this type of economy.  No one thinks like us anymore--no one really cares this much about the details and hence companies can't cater to the market en mass.

[tararais]

The Model M wasn't reasonably priced, that's the whole point. Adjusted, it would've cost around $450 nowadays. Would you pay that for any keyboard?

 
Crikey, didn't know that. I feel better about my Korean custom now.

[ideus]

The Model M wasn't reasonably priced, that's the whole point. Adjusted, it would've cost around $450 nowadays. Would you pay that for any keyboard?

 
Crikey, didn't know that. I feel better about my Korean custom now.

Custom keyboards have value because of their uniqueness, and because they are craftsmanship products. Model M was an expensive mass manufactured product, that's the main point.

[tofgerl]

Well, it's a point. There are others.

[Ellipse]

Dihedral - not meaning to toot my own horn , I have started a group buy for brand new metal Model F keyboards, the predecessor to the Model M, over in the Interest Check subforum.  While they are far from "value-priced" and do not have the standard full layout, with economies of scale they could move further in that direction and someone may want to take on different layouts in the years to come, now that I have paid for production of some of the Model F molds (though we only have about 150 orders so far, so economies of scale are not there just yet).

https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=73363.0

[tararais]

The Model M wasn't reasonably priced, that's the whole point. Adjusted, it would've cost around $450 nowadays. Would you pay that for any keyboard?

 
Crikey, didn't know that. I feel better about my Korean custom now.

Custom keyboards have value because of their uniqueness, and because they are craftsmanship products. Model M was an expensive mass manufactured product, that's the main point.

 
 
That's what I'm talking about, it seems absurd that something incredibly mass-produced with cheap components (plastic shell/case) could possibly compare to a custom-made board with the best you can buy. Granted Unicomp is lower quality than an OG Model M, but even in these days it wouldn't sell if it was over $100, imo.

[ideus]

Dihedral - not meaning to toot my own horn , I have started a group buy for brand new metal Model F keyboards, the predecessor to the Model M, over in the Interest Check subforum.  While they are far from "value-priced" and do not have the standard full layout, with economies of scale they could move further in that direction and someone may want to take on different layouts in the years to come, now that I have paid for production of some of the Model F molds (though we only have about 150 orders so far, so economies of scale are not there just yet).

https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=73363.0

With the orders you have on hand, how close are you to the $350 goal?

[Ellipse]

The price will be $325 bring your own caps, or I think $350 with caps - already reached the pricing goal!

[ideus]

The price will be $325 bring your own caps, or I think $350 with caps - already reached the pricing goal!

Have you ever plan to build a SSK?

[Ellipse]

Nope ideus.  The F77 can be made very similar to an SSK layout, just with shared function keys instead of separate keys.

[M-88]

It's a race to the bottom. And in the ever-dieing desktop market ... it's only going to get worse.

However, we have some new Wyse thin clients that have decent dome keyboards.

It is doubtful that the "market" referred in the OP does actually exist.

Because... companies would much rather buy crate loads of $5 membranes?

Show Image

(Who doesn't love these?)

It would be great to know data pointing what companies wanted to buy keyboards priced in the hundreds.

Those weren't actually too bad to type on! The worst ones that are around today are the Dell KB-212 IMO. They just hurt my wrist after like 30 seconds of typing.

[tararais]

The price will be $325 bring your own caps, or I think $350 with caps - already reached the pricing goal!

Have you ever plan to build a SSK?

 
An ISO and an ANSI board.. my head hurts.

[SamirD]

However, we have some new Wyse thin clients that have decent dome keyboards.

Interesting.  I've got one of those somewhere I'll need to check out.

[0100010]

The price will be $325 bring your own caps, or I think $350 with caps - already reached the pricing goal!

Have you ever plan to build a SSK?

 
An ISO and an ANSI board.. my head hurts.

Right?  It's like the worst of both, put together.

OP - go for a new USB 103 key Unicomp Model M, and call it a day.