[GB] F104+SSK+122+62+77+50+Ergo orders now open! Kishsaver+Industrial Model F

[pixelpusher]

The material lab has successfully analyzed the springs and the material is now confirmed! 

The US spring manufacturer and I were quite off with the material selection for the first samples which may have caused them to sound "off."  I expect to order another round of samples with the confirmed material and then production on the springs can start.

Seems like some firms still manufacture this type of material so we are in luck.

Fascinating.  And that's not sarcasm.  This board is epic. 

[InvidiousIgnoramus]

The material lab has successfully analyzed the springs and the material is now confirmed! 

The US spring manufacturer and I were quite off with the material selection for the first samples which may have caused them to sound "off."  I expect to order another round of samples with the confirmed material and then production on the springs can start.

Seems like some firms still manufacture this type of material so we are in luck.

Fascinating.  And that's not sarcasm.  This board is epic.

The attention to detail is fantastic,  I'm really glad ellipse is making sure everything is right for this.

[consolation]

The material lab has successfully analyzed the springs and the material is now confirmed! 

The US spring manufacturer and I were quite off with the material selection for the first samples which may have caused them to sound "off."  I expect to order another round of samples with the confirmed material and then production on the springs can start.

Seems like some firms still manufacture this type of material so we are in luck.

I'm genuinely curious; can you share any more info? I can't tell if it's too much binge watching of AvE, or flash backs to the material's science in college; but I have of late been fascinated by grain, pearlite ratios, crystal structures and other minutiae of metal working.

[DZed]

Can you point me to the software you were looking at? I'm happy to make a few versions of firmware that can be downloaded to go with the keycaps, or raw data to cut'n'paste into the json file; assuming that's the format, of course.

Here is the software I found from the questions page on the modelfkeyboards site.

http://downloads.cornall.co/ibm-capsense-usb/

Unfortunately, the program won't even launch unless you have an xwhatsit controller in a Model F hooked up.

[consolation]

...
Unfortunately, the program won't even launch unless you have an xwhatsit controller in a Model F hooked up.

Thanks, I presume it looks for a USB id? I dimly recall a program to emulate a hub that would let you "attach" any arbitrary device; something to add to my weekend to-do list. It would be nice to mess with the layout editor.

Is there any chance of doing the nav legends in blue to match the optional keycaps?

[DZed]

...
Unfortunately, the program won't even launch unless you have an xwhatsit controller in a Model F hooked up.

Thanks, I presume it looks for a USB id? I dimly recall a program to emulate a hub that would let you "attach" any arbitrary device; something to add to my weekend to-do list. It would be nice to mess with the layout editor.

Is there any chance of doing the nav legends in blue to match the optional keycaps?

Both of those questions are above my pay grade. Our fearless GB leader will have to take it from here. Let us know if you do work out a hack to get the software running. I am sure I am not the only one who would like to play around with the programming.

[Jampu]

...
Unfortunately, the program won't even launch unless you have an xwhatsit controller in a Model F hooked up.

Thanks, I presume it looks for a USB id? I dimly recall a program to emulate a hub that would let you "attach" any arbitrary device; something to add to my weekend to-do list. It would be nice to mess with the layout editor.

Is there any chance of doing the nav legends in blue to match the optional keycaps?

Both of those questions are above my pay grade. Our fearless GB leader will have to take it from here. Let us know if you do work out a hack to get the software running. I am sure I am not the only one who would like to play around with the programming.

The xwhatsit software is very easy to use - the GUI is relatively simple to understand, and the base layer on an F122 can be laid out from scratch in about five minutes.  That said, the layout is set up not based on key layout but on the capsense matrix, typically 8 rows by 11-16 columns.  Without knowing how the matrix on the F77 is laid out it would be fruitless to attempt creating layout files at this stage, though the matrix may be able to be pieced together from pictures of the PCB.  Anyone with a Kishsaver should be able to make F62-compatible layout files.  I feel like the 60% and nav sections are laid out the same between the F107, F77 and F62, but I cannot remember for sure...

Basically what I mean to say is, I wouldn't worry about it too much.  It's so easy to reconfigure (running the program and changing a key takes maybe 10sec max) that I'm sure people will be swapping layout files as soon as the boards arrive.

[sixdeuces]

Ugh... I really want to jump in on this at the last minute but I'm still in sticker shock. My wallet says no, but my brain says "You can't get this anywhere else!"

UPDATE: Screw it. I'm in. It's just too good to pass up. Besides, I can't imagine I'd have trouble unloading it later if I change my mind.

[sundin]

Ugh... I really want to jump in on this at the last minute but I'm still in sticker shock. My wallet says no, but my brain says "You can't get this anywhere else!"

UPDATE: Screw it. I'm in. It's just too good to pass up. Besides, I can't imagine I'd have trouble unloading it later if I change my mind.

I had this reflexion 2 years ago.

[ixtopolis]

Ugh... I really want to jump in on this at the last minute but I'm still in sticker shock. My wallet says no, but my brain says "You can't get this anywhere else!"

UPDATE: Screw it. I'm in. It's just too good to pass up. Besides, I can't imagine I'd have trouble unloading it later if I change my mind.

I'm in the same boat. I've had the order page open for a while now, cart is ready to be bought...

Is this still the Early Bird round? So there will be one more round after this? I really want to get in on this but I can't justify it right now.

[pixelpusher]

Ugh... I really want to jump in on this at the last minute but I'm still in sticker shock. My wallet says no, but my brain says "You can't get this anywhere else!"

UPDATE: Screw it. I'm in. It's just too good to pass up. Besides, I can't imagine I'd have trouble unloading it later if I change my mind.

I'm in the same boat. I've had the order page open for a while now, cart is ready to be bought...

Is this still the Early Bird round? So there will be one more round after this? I really want to get in on this but I can't justify it right now.

From my understanding... early bird means you get put at the end of the current list of people who have paid for early bird, and the boards will ship out in that order.  So, say 400 people have ordered the board. And say 50 have paid for early bird at this point.  If you join as an early bird, you would be the 51st person to get their board shipped, vs. the 401st. 

[dante]

Is this still the Early Bird round? So there will be one more round after this? I really want to get in on this but I can't justify it right now.

There is supposed to be a 2nd round but based on progress that may not happen until 2019.

I'm waiting for reviews from the early bird round before purchasing.  And even then it's not going to be for personal use but to flip down the road.

[sixdeuces]

I had this reflexion 2 years ago.

I first became aware of it back in maybe January, so I've been circling for a while. I considered holding off for a later round, but there's never a guarantee that will actually happen.

I have an F XT bigfoot, so I was trying to convince myself I didn't need this, but the idea of a modernized layout with a industrial gray case and all the other goodies won out. I'll get to enjoy that typing experience without jumping through the hoops that come with a 3-decade old machine. It can legitimately be a daily driver. Plus, it's obvious how much work has gone into perfecting this, and I'm very pleased to be able to support the project.

[InvidiousIgnoramus]

I had this reflexion 2 years ago.

I first became aware of it back in maybe January, so I've been circling for a while. I considered holding off for a later round, but there's never a guarantee that will actually happen.

I have an F XT bigfoot, so I was trying to convince myself I didn't need this, but the idea of a modernized layout with a industrial gray case and all the other goodies won out. I'll get to enjoy that typing experience without jumping through the hoops that come with a 3-decade old machine. It can legitimately be a daily driver. Plus, it's obvious how much work has gone into perfecting this, and I'm very pleased to be able to support the project.

It's funny you mention that, I joined this about a month ago and just three days ago I bought an XT on eBay. Just got it today.

[sixdeuces]

[It's funny you mention that, I joined this about a month ago and just three days ago I bought an XT on eBay. Just got it today.

Congrats! I was super lucky in finding mine. (Purchased in a lot, kept it and a mint Model M square logo and still turned a profit!) I love the expletive-heavy reaction people have when they pick it up for the first time. Plus that B E Z E L.

[cicada]

Ugh... I really want to jump in on this at the last minute but I'm still in sticker shock. My wallet says no, but my brain says "You can't get this anywhere else!"

UPDATE: Screw it. I'm in. It's just too good to pass up. Besides, I can't imagine I'd have trouble unloading it later if I change my mind.

I'm in the same boat. I've had the order page open for a while now, cart is ready to be bought...

Is this still the Early Bird round? So there will be one more round after this? I really want to get in on this but I can't justify it right now.

From my understanding... early bird means you get put at the end of the current list of people who have paid for early bird, and the boards will ship out in that order.  So, say 400 people have ordered the board. And say 50 have paid for early bird at this point.  If you join as an early bird, you would be the 51st person to get their board shipped, vs. the 401st.

I'm confused, are you saying that you can order without paying? Because I don't think so. If you join now as an early bird you'll be the 401st person to get your board shipped.

[pixelpusher]

Ugh... I really want to jump in on this at the last minute but I'm still in sticker shock. My wallet says no, but my brain says "You can't get this anywhere else!"

UPDATE: Screw it. I'm in. It's just too good to pass up. Besides, I can't imagine I'd have trouble unloading it later if I change my mind.

I'm in the same boat. I've had the order page open for a while now, cart is ready to be bought...

Is this still the Early Bird round? So there will be one more round after this? I really want to get in on this but I can't justify it right now.

From my understanding... early bird means you get put at the end of the current list of people who have paid for early bird, and the boards will ship out in that order.  So, say 400 people have ordered the board. And say 50 have paid for early bird at this point.  If you join as an early bird, you would be the 51st person to get their board shipped, vs. the 401st.

I'm confused, are you saying that you can order without paying? Because I don't think so. If you join now as an early bird you'll be the 401st person to get your board shipped.

I should probably just let elipse explain, but it is my understanding that if you pay for early bird (which costs extra) you get added to the end of the list of early bird orders.  You get to jump ahead of those who ordered w/o paying extra for early bird.

[Ellipse]

Yes we are still in the early bird round due to factory production delays.  I am hoping things wrap up and ship around year end and early next year.

Everyone who orders is part of the early bird round for now.  The low serial option does put you at #50 or so instead of #850 or so and it helps cover production overrun costs.

Unfortunately the factory will be resuming production after their weeklong national holiday coming up.  They did not make much progress this month which was disappointing.

[DZed]

...
Unfortunately, the program won't even launch unless you have an xwhatsit controller in a Model F hooked up.

Thanks, I presume it looks for a USB id? I dimly recall a program to emulate a hub that would let you "attach" any arbitrary device; something to add to my weekend to-do list. It would be nice to mess with the layout editor.

Is there any chance of doing the nav legends in blue to match the optional keycaps?

Both of those questions are above my pay grade. Our fearless GB leader will have to take it from here. Let us know if you do work out a hack to get the software running. I am sure I am not the only one who would like to play around with the programming.

The xwhatsit software is very easy to use - the GUI is relatively simple to understand, and the base layer on an F122 can be laid out from scratch in about five minutes.  That said, the layout is set up not based on key layout but on the capsense matrix, typically 8 rows by 11-16 columns.  Without knowing how the matrix on the F77 is laid out it would be fruitless to attempt creating layout files at this stage, though the matrix may be able to be pieced together from pictures of the PCB.  Anyone with a Kishsaver should be able to make F62-compatible layout files.  I feel like the 60% and nav sections are laid out the same between the F107, F77 and F62, but I cannot remember for sure...

Basically what I mean to say is, I wouldn't worry about it too much.  It's so easy to reconfigure (running the program and changing a key takes maybe 10sec max) that I'm sure people will be swapping layout files as soon as the boards arrive.

Thanks for the info. I was really more interested in the features available than trying to create a layout file. I take it toggle layers are available?

[Jampu]

The xwhatsit software is very easy to use - the GUI is relatively simple to understand, and the base layer on an F122 can be laid out from scratch in about five minutes.  That said, the layout is set up not based on key layout but on the capsense matrix, typically 8 rows by 11-16 columns.  Without knowing how the matrix on the F77 is laid out it would be fruitless to attempt creating layout files at this stage, though the matrix may be able to be pieced together from pictures of the PCB.  Anyone with a Kishsaver should be able to make F62-compatible layout files.  I feel like the 60% and nav sections are laid out the same between the F107, F77 and F62, but I cannot remember for sure...

Basically what I mean to say is, I wouldn't worry about it too much.  It's so easy to reconfigure (running the program and changing a key takes maybe 10sec max) that I'm sure people will be swapping layout files as soon as the boards arrive.

Thanks for the info. I was really more interested in the features available than trying to create a layout file. I take it toggle layers are available?

Yes - there is a base layer and three additional layers, and you can configure a key to swap to another layer.  There are also three function keys which can be held to select a layer and can be chorded.  In addition, there is a macro editor, but there is not enough space allocated in ROM for very long keypatterns.

[DZed]

Yes - there is a base layer and three additional layers, and you can configure a key to swap to another layer.  There are also three function keys which can be held to select a layer and can be chorded.  In addition, there is a macro editor, but there is not enough space allocated in ROM for very long keypatterns.

Thanks again!

[consolation]

...
Yes - there is a base layer and three additional layers, and you can configure a key to swap to another layer.  There are also three function keys which can be held to select a layer and can be chorded.  In addition, there is a macro editor, but there is not enough space allocated in ROM for very long keypatterns.

Can the function keys be set as toggle, momentary and switch types?

[Jampu]

...
Yes - there is a base layer and three additional layers, and you can configure a key to swap to another layer.  There are also three function keys which can be held to select a layer and can be chorded.  In addition, there is a macro editor, but there is not enough space allocated in ROM for very long keypatterns.

Can the function keys be set as toggle, momentary and switch types?

The function keycodes are for momentary layer swapping or (I think) macros.  (Not sure if they show up in the macro options list...)  The layer swap codes will set the keyboard to the corresponding layer - you can configure the same key to return on that alternate layer. In other words, if one wanted to use Pause/Brk to toggle between the base layer and layer 1 they would need to set the Pause/Brk position to "Switch 1" on the base layer and "Switch Base" on layer 1.  (The keycode names might be off, can't remember off the top of my head - they're at the bottom of the drop-down list for each key position.)

That covers toggle and momentary, but I am not sure what you mean by "switch" type.

Thanks again!

No problem!  I might try out one or two of the proposed layouts this week on the F107 and see how they feel.

[consolation]

That covers toggle and momentary, but I am not sure what you mean by "switch" type.

I meant as in: "switch" to the designated layer and stay there until another layer is selected, as opposed to switch back after next key press (toggle) or switch to layer while holding down the function key (momentary.) Sorry for the confusion, there is so many different names used for these modes; latch, modifier mode, select, etc, etc... There really is no agreed set of terms it seems.

[Jampu]

That covers toggle and momentary, but I am not sure what you mean by "switch" type.

I meant as in: "switch" to the designated layer and stay there until another layer is selected, as opposed to switch back after next key press (toggle) or switch to layer while holding down the function key (momentary.) Sorry for the confusion, there is so many different names used for these modes; latch, modifier mode, select, etc, etc... There really is no agreed set of terms it seems.

Ah, I see - per your terminology, the Fn keys are momentary and the layer selects are switch-type.  There does not seem to be any toggle-type functionality.

I looked at trying out one of the layouts today but didn't understand the 0/NumLk key - how should that be implemented?

[DZed]

I looked at trying out one of the layouts today but didn't understand the 0/NumLk key - how should that be implemented?

They way I have been thinking about it (and I think Consolation has confirmed above), Fn + "0" would act like Num Lock/Nav toggle ("switch" type ala Consolation).

The blue icons could be a momentary layer and, of course, you could also include the Page Up/Down, etc.

[Jampu]

I looked at trying out one of the layouts today but didn't understand the 0/NumLk key - how should that be implemented?

They way I have been thinking about it (and I think Consolation has confirmed above), Fn + "0" would act like Num Lock/Nav toggle ("switch" type ala Consolation).

The blue icons could be a momentary layer and, of course, you could also include the Page Up/Down, etc.

One thing worth noting is the ridge between the alphanumeric block and the navpad - the top of the keycaps on the Shift/Fn row are nearly flush with that ridge/bar.  On a normal TKL it would be easy to press Fn with your thumb, but on these keyboards (at least on the classic-type case) a finger will be required instead.  This makes the toggle a bit cumbersome if one intends to swap back and forth regularly.

[DZed]

I looked at trying out one of the layouts today but didn't understand the 0/NumLk key - how should that be implemented?

They way I have been thinking about it (and I think Consolation has confirmed above), Fn + "0" would act like Num Lock/Nav toggle ("switch" type ala Consolation).

The blue icons could be a momentary layer and, of course, you could also include the Page Up/Down, etc.

One thing worth noting is the ridge between the alphanumeric block and the navpad - the top of the keycaps on the Shift/Fn row are nearly flush with that ridge/bar.  On a normal TKL it would be easy to press Fn with your thumb, but on these keyboards (at least on the classic-type case) a finger will be required instead.  This makes the toggle a bit cumbersome if one intends to swap back and forth regularly.

Excellent info. I had not even thought that ridge might be an obstacle before.

https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/DSC_8541.jpg

[PancakeMSTR]

How far are we from shipping? What needs doing?

[atlas3686]

How far are we from shipping? What needs doing?

Here are the last updates:

Production update:

The US factory's aerospace-grade spring samples are technically excellent - they meet or exceed all the tolerances specified - but the spring sound is not yet perfect.  It's a little too sharp/high pitched.  Either the material alloy is off or they were heat treated a little too long/too high a temperature is my guess.  Or maybe the sound dulls a bit over time and with corrosion of the original springs after 30 years.

The factory suggested I have the original springs analyzed at a material analysis lab - I have sent off some original XT springs to a lab.  They can determine with reasonable accuracy the content of the original springs.  We should know more next week.

Meanwhile the main factory is still preparing to finish up production of the remaining parts - inner assembly plates, boxes, inner foam, outside foam, and ultra compact cases.  I am hoping to have these completed parts, key samples from the new mold supplier, and all the springs by early November.

After further discussions with the PCB factories I have discovered some suppliers of PCB materials in Taiwan and China that may be even more close to the 80s originals.  These materials may further enhance the sharpness of the flipper click as a key is pressed on a new Model F.  I have ordered some samples and should get them around month end. 

If this is a noticeable improvement I plan on using them for everyone's keyboards even though I already ordered the ones from the other supplier.

I noticed that the '96 4704 refurbs had weaker/muddier clicks and part of that reason seems to be the '96 manufactured PCB itself. 

PCBs are quick to make (they can fulfill the whole order in under two weeks) so this will not bottleneck the project.  This doesn't affect the controllers which are 100% good and are not being re-made.

The material lab has successfully analyzed the springs and the material is now confirmed! 

The US spring manufacturer and I were quite off with the material selection for the first samples which may have caused them to sound "off."  I expect to order another round of samples with the confirmed material and then production on the springs can start.

Seems like some firms still manufacture this type of material so we are in luck.

[consolation]

Excellent info. I had not even thought that ridge might be an obstacle before.

classic chasis

Damn, I didn't think about that at all, sounds like our "./enter" key might have to become the function key? Then the rest of the cluster is: nav keys, arrows, numpad numericals, numpad operators.

PS. "0" can have the decimal "." as a fn layer.

PPS. Essentially this: but properly aligned etc... Each user can decide for themselves which section goes on which layer to match their usage patterns.



 Most people, probably, predominantly uses the nav layer; so can set the nav buttons + cursors to default and numpad to function/meta layer, in effect getting a TKL.  If, like me, you prefer a TK design: set the numericals + cursors to default and get that layout.

As a bonus, it gives a function key for those who chose a traditional ANSI layout on the main cluster.

[PancakeMSTR]

How far are we from shipping? What needs doing?

Here are the last updates:

Production update:

The US factory's aerospace-grade spring samples are technically excellent - they meet or exceed all the tolerances specified - but the spring sound is not yet perfect.  It's a little too sharp/high pitched.  Either the material alloy is off or they were heat treated a little too long/too high a temperature is my guess.  Or maybe the sound dulls a bit over time and with corrosion of the original springs after 30 years.

The factory suggested I have the original springs analyzed at a material analysis lab - I have sent off some original XT springs to a lab.  They can determine with reasonable accuracy the content of the original springs.  We should know more next week.

Meanwhile the main factory is still preparing to finish up production of the remaining parts - inner assembly plates, boxes, inner foam, outside foam, and ultra compact cases.  I am hoping to have these completed parts, key samples from the new mold supplier, and all the springs by early November.

After further discussions with the PCB factories I have discovered some suppliers of PCB materials in Taiwan and China that may be even more close to the 80s originals.  These materials may further enhance the sharpness of the flipper click as a key is pressed on a new Model F.  I have ordered some samples and should get them around month end. 

If this is a noticeable improvement I plan on using them for everyone's keyboards even though I already ordered the ones from the other supplier.

I noticed that the '96 4704 refurbs had weaker/muddier clicks and part of that reason seems to be the '96 manufactured PCB itself. 

PCBs are quick to make (they can fulfill the whole order in under two weeks) so this will not bottleneck the project.  This doesn't affect the controllers which are 100% good and are not being re-made.

The material lab has successfully analyzed the springs and the material is now confirmed! 

The US spring manufacturer and I were quite off with the material selection for the first samples which may have caused them to sound "off."  I expect to order another round of samples with the confirmed material and then production on the springs can start.

Seems like some firms still manufacture this type of material so we are in luck.

Old news. Plus I think this whole spring and PCB thing is....misguided, to say the least.

I mean, to order a whole new set of PCBs from the manufacturer, AFTER a full set of PCBs have already been ordered?

No comment on that one.

[InvidiousIgnoramus]

How far are we from shipping? What needs doing?

Here are the last updates:

Production update:

The US factory's aerospace-grade spring samples are technically excellent - they meet or exceed all the tolerances specified - but the spring sound is not yet perfect.  It's a little too sharp/high pitched.  Either the material alloy is off or they were heat treated a little too long/too high a temperature is my guess.  Or maybe the sound dulls a bit over time and with corrosion of the original springs after 30 years.

The factory suggested I have the original springs analyzed at a material analysis lab - I have sent off some original XT springs to a lab.  They can determine with reasonable accuracy the content of the original springs.  We should know more next week.

Meanwhile the main factory is still preparing to finish up production of the remaining parts - inner assembly plates, boxes, inner foam, outside foam, and ultra compact cases.  I am hoping to have these completed parts, key samples from the new mold supplier, and all the springs by early November.

After further discussions with the PCB factories I have discovered some suppliers of PCB materials in Taiwan and China that may be even more close to the 80s originals.  These materials may further enhance the sharpness of the flipper click as a key is pressed on a new Model F.  I have ordered some samples and should get them around month end. 

If this is a noticeable improvement I plan on using them for everyone's keyboards even though I already ordered the ones from the other supplier.

I noticed that the '96 4704 refurbs had weaker/muddier clicks and part of that reason seems to be the '96 manufactured PCB itself. 

PCBs are quick to make (they can fulfill the whole order in under two weeks) so this will not bottleneck the project.  This doesn't affect the controllers which are 100% good and are not being re-made.

The material lab has successfully analyzed the springs and the material is now confirmed! 

The US spring manufacturer and I were quite off with the material selection for the first samples which may have caused them to sound "off."  I expect to order another round of samples with the confirmed material and then production on the springs can start.

Seems like some firms still manufacture this type of material so we are in luck.

Old news. Plus I think this whole spring and PCB thing is....misguided, to say the least.

I mean, to order a whole new set of PCBs from the manufacturer, AFTER a full set of PCBs have already been ordered?

No comment on that one.

I mean, this is an attempt to create an exact reproduction, not something that's almost the same.

[PancakeMSTR]

I mean, this is an attempt to create an exact reproduction, not something that's almost the same.

Well, no, it's actually exactly an attempt to create something that's almost the same. While I believe the end product will be good and worthwhile,  I think that exact reproduction is a bad approach and I disagree with a number of the choices made with this project. I'm not willing to say anything beyond these comments.

None of this discussion has answered my question, though.

[Atredl]

I mean, this is an attempt to create an exact reproduction, not something that's almost the same.

Well, no, it's actually exactly an attempt to create something that's almost the same. While I believe the end product will be good and worthwhile,  I think that exact reproduction is a bad approach and I disagree with a number of the choices made with this project. I'm not willing to say anything beyond these comments.

None of this discussion has answered my question, though.

I do not want to compromise a project like this by lowering standards and cutting corners to make it inferior to an original because it is something I want to be able to use and something that is on par with the original Model F keyboards that I use daily - that is why I expect to end up spending $100,000 or more on this project for materials and production processes that meet or exceed original standards and tolerances, including lots of metal!

This is straight from https://www.modelfkeyboards.com. We're not looking for almost, we're looking for equal to or greater than. In his PCB update he mentions that their production won't even affect the timeline and in the process we get a higher quality PCB. He's not even charging us more for it so I don't know why you have a problem with ordering the new PCBs. Same thing with the springs, he literally went to a lab to get the metal analyzed and the results were a much higher grade than gets used in any keyboard springs nowadays.

I think you may have gotten into this GB with the wrong expectations of what Ellipse is aiming to achieve.   

[InvidiousIgnoramus]

I mean, this is an attempt to create an exact reproduction, not something that's almost the same.

Well, no, it's actually exactly an attempt to create something that's almost the same. While I believe the end product will be good and worthwhile,  I think that exact reproduction is a bad approach and I disagree with a number of the choices made with this project. I'm not willing to say anything beyond these comments.

None of this discussion has answered my question, though.

I do not want to compromise a project like this by lowering standards and cutting corners to make it inferior to an original because it is something I want to be able to use and something that is on par with the original Model F keyboards that I use daily - that is why I expect to end up spending $100,000 or more on this project for materials and production processes that meet or exceed original standards and tolerances, including lots of metal!

This is straight from https://www.modelfkeyboards.com. We're not looking for almost, we're looking for equal to or greater than. In his PCB update he mentions that their production won't even affect the timeline and in the process we get a higher quality PCB. He's not even charging us more for it so I don't know why you have a problem with ordering the new PCBs. Same thing with the springs, he literally went to a lab to get the metal analyzed and the results were a much higher grade than gets used in any keyboard springs nowadays.

I think you may have gotten into this GB with the wrong expectations of what Ellipse is aiming to achieve.

Bless Ellipse and his Noble quest

[PancakeMSTR]

This is straight from https://www.modelfkeyboards.com. We're not looking for almost, we're looking for equal to or greater than. In his PCB update he mentions that their production won't even affect the timeline and in the process we get a higher quality PCB. He's not even charging us more for it so I don't know why you have a problem with ordering the new PCBs. Same thing with the springs, he literally went to a lab to get the metal analyzed and the results were a much higher grade than gets used in any keyboard springs nowadays.

I think you may have gotten into this GB with the wrong expectations of what Ellipse is aiming to achieve.

Haha no I knew what the mission statement of this project was when I joined it, don't condescend to me, don't imply I'm an ignorant or oblivious idiot. I already get that from 90% of the people on this forum - condescension - you trying to be like everyone else?

I'm fully aware of everything you just said, although I saw nowhere a statement claiming that the new spring steel is a higher grade, just closer to original.

Regardless, it doesn't change my opinion.

By the way,  "almost the same" covers "an improvement over the original." I'm not suggesting an inferior product should be produced.

[InvidiousIgnoramus]

I mean, this is an attempt to create an exact reproduction, not something that's almost the same.

Well, no, it's actually exactly an attempt to create something that's almost the same. While I believe the end product will be good and worthwhile,  I think that exact reproduction is a bad approach and I disagree with a number of the choices made with this project. I'm not willing to say anything beyond these comments.

None of this discussion has answered my question, though.

I do not want to compromise a project like this by lowering standards and cutting corners to make it inferior to an original because it is something I want to be able to use and something that is on par with the original Model F keyboards that I use daily - that is why I expect to end up spending $100,000 or more on this project for materials and production processes that meet or exceed original standards and tolerances, including lots of metal!

This is straight from https://www.modelfkeyboards.com. We're not looking for almost, we're looking for equal to or greater than. In his PCB update he mentions that their production won't even affect the timeline and in the process we get a higher quality PCB. He's not even charging us more for it so I don't know why you have a problem with ordering the new PCBs. Same thing with the springs, he literally went to a lab to get the metal analyzed and the results were a much higher grade than gets used in any keyboard springs nowadays.

I think you may have gotten into this GB with the wrong expectations of what Ellipse is aiming to achieve.

Haha no I knew what the mission statement of this project was when I joined it, don't condescend to me, don't imply I'm an ignorant or oblivious idiot. I already get that from 90% of the people on this forum - condescension - you trying to be like everyone else?

I'm fully aware of everything you just said, although I saw nowhere a statement claiming that the new spring steel is a higher grade, just closer to original.

Regardless, it doesn't change my opinion.

By the way,  "almost the same" covers "an improvement over the original." I'm not suggesting an inferior product should be produced.

Rude, watch who you respond to. I said none of those things.

[PancakeMSTR]

Rude, watch who you respond to. I said none of those things.

I don't know how you're under the impression I was responding to you but I edited my post to make things clearer. I'm being as polite as possible.

[InvidiousIgnoramus]

Rude, watch who you respond to. I said none of those things.

I don't know how you're under the impression I was responding to you but I edited my post to make things clearer. I'm being as polite as possible.

Sorry, Tapatalk made it sound like you responded to me.

[Atredl]

Haha no I knew what the mission statement of this project was when I joined it, don't condescend to me, don't imply I'm an ignorant or oblivious idiot. I already get that from 90% of the people on this forum - condescension - you trying to be like everyone else?

I was not condescending to you at any point. Some of your comments simply suggested you might be misinformed and you don’t have to be an idiot to be misinformed. So don’t put imply intentions that were never there.

I'm fully aware of everything you just said, although I saw nowhere a statement claiming that the new spring steel is a higher grade, just closer to original.

Regardless, it doesn't change my opinion.

By the way,  "almost the same" covers "an improvement over the original." I'm not suggesting an inferior product should be produced.

But closer to the original is part of the goal. Yes the aim is to use higher quality parts but he’s aiming to make a product that feels and sounds identical to the originals.

[Zobeid Zuma]

Got to admit, some of the decisions made and actions taken don't sound like what I would have done.  But you know, I'm not the Model F expert, and I'm not the person who is getting this done, so I'll withhold judgment and wait for the result to be shown.

[ygor]

[DZed]

Excellent info. I had not even thought that ridge might be an obstacle before.

classic chasis

Damn, I didn't think about that at all, sounds like our "./enter" key might have to become the function key? Then the rest of the cluster is: nav keys, arrows, numpad numericals, numpad operators.

PS. "0" can have the decimal "." as a fn layer.

PPS. Essentially this: but properly aligned etc... Each user can decide for themselves which section goes on which layer to match their usage patterns.

(Attachment Link)

 Most people, probably, predominantly uses the nav layer; so can set the nav buttons + cursors to default and numpad to function/meta layer, in effect getting a TKL.  If, like me, you prefer a TK design: set the numericals + cursors to default and get that layout.

As a bonus, it gives a function key for those who chose a traditional ANSI layout on the main cluster.

It seems a shame to give up some already precious real estate. What about something like Fn + Shift to toggle the Num/Nav layers?

[esquilax]

In the end, if we end up with half assed keyboards after all this time and money, it's going to be a major disappointment. I don't really see anybody else in this thread that has the expertise to pull this off correctly, so my trust is in him. I'd hate to see him kowtow to a few impatient people and ruin what could be a keyboard I use for the rest of my life.

People can call what he does "misguided," but unless you want to be ignored or told off, you probably are going to have to back that up with something that establishes your credibility. Otherwise, it's an "opinions are like *******s, everybody's got one" type of situation.

[cicada]

Ellipse, I sent you a PM regarding my order change. 

[PancakeMSTR]

In the end, if we end up with half assed keyboards after all this time and money, it's going to be a major disappointment. I don't really see anybody else in this thread that has the expertise to pull this off correctly, so my trust is in him. I'd hate to see him kowtow to a few impatient people and ruin what could be a keyboard I use for the rest of my life.

People can call what he does "misguided," but unless you want to be ignored or told off, you probably are going to have to back that up with something that establishes your credibility. Otherwise, it's an "opinions are like *******s, everybody's got one" type of situation.

The difference between "98%" great and "99%" great doesn't take a product from great to spectacular, but how hard is it to effect that 1% change? I've so far seen no quantitative demonstration that any of the extra steps being taken here will perceptibly influence the end user experience.


I personally have and respect those with a great attention to detail. And even I have the problem that I compulsively perfect things even though I know sometimes they will ultimately have no bearing on the end result. But I operate on an individual scale, so no one cares. This case is a little different.

I want to qualify all of this, again, that I'm not suggesting a bad product be released.

[esquilax]

And likewise, you haven't demonstrated it won't, or that it's limited to 1%. That's a hunch of yours, right?

[PancakeMSTR]

And likewise, you haven't demonstrated it won't, or that it's limited to 1%. That's a hunch of yours, right?

Correct, except I have no, nor meant to suggest a, hunch either way. The only fact here is that I've been given no demonstration that these changes are worth the time and energy. I'm also, personally, unconvinced they will have no effect on the timetable.

[atlas3686]

Correct, except I have no, nor meant to suggest a, hunch either way. The only fact here is that I've been given no demonstration that these changes are worth the time and energy. I'm also, personally, unconvinced they will have no effect on the timetable.

Not sure how it could be demonstrated that these changes are worth the time and energy... since you have no experience with the originals and no experience or interaction with the parts being discussed. It's for that reason exactly that someone like Ellipse is one of the few people capable of doing this. By putting your money into the project you are putting your trust in the brief he laid out for this project and in his opinion and experience when it comes to executing it. I have seen no evidence that he has strayed even slightly from his stated brief if anything he has put huge amounts of time and extra effort (and even extra money) to ensure it's met exactly. So this is basically just whingeing that things are taking longer then you would like. I do get that and obviously we are all keen for it to be done and in our hands but most of us want what Ellipse set out to do and that's why we joined the project.

Lastly and this is just my opinion but I don't think that Ellipse deserves any of us second-guessing these decisions, especially considering our relative lack of knowledge and all the effort he has put in.