[GB] F104+SSK+122+62+77+50+Ergo orders now open! Kishsaver+Industrial Model F

[nathanrosspowell]

How do I change my shipping address?

[Ellipse]

Feel free to email or PM me with your order number and new address.

[nathanrosspowell]

Feel free to email or PM me with your order number and new address.

Email sent. Thanks.

[FakeAnimeBoy]

I've been looking for a few dates for the current production run, but haven't found anything.
When do orders for this run close?
Also, If I just ordered an F62, would I probably be receiving it this year, or later?

[PancakeMSTR]

I've been looking for a few dates for the current production run, but haven't found anything.
When do orders for this run close?
Also, If I just ordered an F62, would I probably be receiving it this year, or later?

This is a "when it's done" project. Your mileage may vary with that concept, I know mine certainly has. I placed my order well over a year ago, and long ago started to ignore any provided dates or deadlines.

Optimistically, I would guess the first boards will be shipped not sooner than 6 months from now. Pessimistically, Q1 2019. Maybe.

[nathanrosspowell]

I've been looking for a few dates for the current production run, but haven't found anything.
When do orders for this run close?
Also, If I just ordered an F62, would I probably be receiving it this year, or later?

This is a "when it's done" project. Your mileage may vary with that concept, I know mine certainly has. I placed my order well over a year ago, and long ago started to ignore any provided dates or deadlines.

Optimistically, I would guess the first boards will be shipped not sooner than 6 months from now. Pessimistically, Q1 2019. Maybe.

Ha, yes. I was 28 when I rushed to get into the 'early bird' allotment. Next month I'm 31 and it's still open  )

Personally, while this project is very ambitious and commendable, I would save your money for a 2nd round (unless you've got cash to burn).

[Ellipse]

One of the two new key molds has passed my examination of the sample parts (the mold containing the 1U cavities) so the 1U keys are approved for production!  The keys meet all dimensions' tolerance measurements (+/- 0.1 mm!); the key tops are richly textured like those of the brand new original Model F's in my collection.  They interact with both new and original barrels smoothly.

Unfortunately the second mold with the other keys needs some more adjustment.

The black PBT from the new production keys is of excellent quality and texture; I do not see circular areas of excessive shine on the tops characteristic of the original black keys.

The F107/F122 foam from this batch has all sold out (unless the forum member I just reached out to decides they do not want the foam early - then there will be one left) but more will be on the way in a month or so.

[PancakeMSTR]

Doesn't adjustment mean "remachine" the mold? And these things are tens of thousands of dollars, and we've had how many "adjusted"? How is that possible?

[Puddsy]

Doesn't adjustment mean "remachine" the mold? And these things are tens of thousands of dollars, and we've had how many "adjusted"? How is that possible?

Adjusting doesn't mean a new mold. You can weld more metal in or machine more metal out. Plus, not every mold is 5 figures, I got a quote for a 65% keyboard case in the US, and it came in around $4k USD.

If Ellipse is going for the tight tolerances mentioned above, a lot of adjusting will need to be done.

[Techno Trousers]

It's kind of surprising they can't 3D print these molds yet. There's already a process for 3D printing aluminum.

[Puddsy]

It's kind of surprising they can't 3D print these molds yet. There's already a process for 3D printing aluminum.

My understanding is that machining a block is much cheaper than 3D printing.

[Ellipse]

Update on the springs:  The Japanese material springs were technically perfect, within spec, but too quiet - higher end than what IBM used! They lacked the full volume Model F resonance after a pressed key is released. The factory is sourcing the same spring material from the material analysis report but from other factories (same spring factory though). Not all materials of the same grade are exactly the same or sound the same as I've learned. I've gone through about 20 unique spring production runs over the span of this project so far. We are getting there!

Key molds note:  Much of the expense of mold production is getting the molds to produce within-spec parts.  The adjustments preproduction and during production to ensure within-spec parts are typically included in the mold cost and are not extra.  These key molds are complex and high cost partially due to the tight tolerances and intricate machining required within each key. 

[Giorgio]

Update on the springs:  The Japanese material springs were technically perfect, within spec, but too quiet - higher end than what IBM used!

So you solved one of the problems of the model f, yet you decided to get the louder and lower quality springs? I need the Japanese springs thanks.

[Puddsy]

Update on the springs:  The Japanese material springs were technically perfect, within spec, but too quiet - higher end than what IBM used!

So you solved one of the problems of the model f, yet you decided to get the louder and lower quality springs? I need the Japanese springs thanks.

The springs will be Japanese even though he's changing the material being used. It's the same factory.

[Giorgio]

Update on the springs:  The Japanese material springs were technically perfect, within spec, but too quiet - higher end than what IBM used!

So you solved one of the problems of the model f, yet you decided to get the louder and lower quality springs? I need the Japanese springs thanks.

The springs will be Japanese even though he's changing the material being used. It's the same factory.

Yes, but not the quieter ones.

[Kevadu]

Update on the springs:  The Japanese material springs were technically perfect, within spec, but too quiet - higher end than what IBM used! They lacked the full volume Model F resonance after a pressed key is released.

Is this really a problem?  I mean I love the typing feel of my Model F but I certainly wouldn't complain if it was a bit quieter.  I don't think we're talking about making it non-clicky or something here...

[hoggy]

I'm sure no matter what material is used for the springs, it'll be too loud for most offices. I'd prefer it to be quieter, but I think the best path will be the authenticity path, it's what we signed up for.

[vewy_nice]

Hmm, could you possibly offer "quiet spring" kits? 
I'd buy a set for my A/T, depending on HOW quiet they are.

You do whatever you want for production, but that's definitely an interesting discovery. 
Do you have any video/sound comparison between OG/"quiet" springs?

[pixelpusher]

I'm sure no matter what material is used for the springs, it'll be too loud for most offices. I'd prefer it to be quieter, but I think the best path will be the authenticity path, it's what we signed up for.

Well stated. He could have deviated tens if not hundreds of different ways.  Best to stick to the plan and keep it as close to authentic as possible.   If there was a hard cutoff for shipping, sure he would have to use the quieter spring. 

[PancakeMSTR]

I would not mind a quieter spring option. TBH I doubt the difference between the springs is even noticeable.

[wowremy]

does the buy period still end on 4/30?

[emenelopee]

I'm sure no matter what material is used for the springs, it'll be too loud for most offices. I'd prefer it to be quieter, but I think the best path will be the authenticity path, it's what we signed up for.

Well stated. He could have deviated tens if not hundreds of different ways.  Best to stick to the plan and keep it as close to authentic as possible.   If there was a hard cutoff for shipping, sure he would have to use the quieter spring.

Perfect is the enemy of the good. At some point this Zeno's paradox needs to get to the end before n = infinity.

does the buy period still end on 4/30?

TBH I'm feeling a little swindled - I thought the buy period ended when I ordered mine, I didn't realise it reset each month: while the exact formula of the spring material gets lab-tested and recreated to 6 decimal places, years have passed and orders are still being taken with no end in sight.

[a_ak57]

It fascinates me why there are some who don't just ask for a refund and move along with their lives.

[Puddsy]

I'm sure no matter what material is used for the springs, it'll be too loud for most offices. I'd prefer it to be quieter, but I think the best path will be the authenticity path, it's what we signed up for.

Well said. Thanks.

It fascinates me why there are some who don't just ask for a refund and move along with their lives.

People like drama, I guess.

[emenelopee]

I was more getting at a non-binary solution - if that's perceived as drama then so be it.

[ricyuyc]

Quieter spring is good for me too.

[Mr_BeastQuake]

Good job Ellipse.

[PancakeMSTR]

TBH I'm feeling a little swindled - I thought the buy period ended when I ordered mine, I didn't realise it reset each month: while the exact formula of the spring material gets lab-tested and recreated to 6 decimal places, years have passed and orders are still being taken with no end in sight.

No Kidding

It fascinates me why there are some who don't just ask for a refund and move along with their lives.

Sunk cost/time fallacy. Or maybe not fallacy in this case, who knows. IDK. Don't look at me.

[vewy_nice]

Sunk cost/time fallacy. Or maybe not fallacy in this case, who knows. IDK. Don't look at me.

It's simple:

FOMO

[Zobeid Zuma]

It fascinates me why there are some who don't just ask for a refund and move along with their lives.

People like drama, I guess.

I did, in fact, ask for a refund.  I was told that it's a made-to-order product, so no refunds.

However, I'm quite sure that under US law the seller does have to actually deliver at some point or give money back.  I am being patient, for now.  I haven't contacted any lawyer yet.  But Ellipse needs to be aware that this can't go on indefinitely.

[PancakeMSTR]

It fascinates me why there are some who don't just ask for a refund and move along with their lives.

People like drama, I guess.

I did, in fact, ask for a refund.  I was told that it's a made-to-order product, so no refunds.

Well that might be the biggest red flag I've seen so far.

[hoggy]

These things can take a long time. They just do.

[emenelopee]

These things can take a long time. They just do.

I'm with you on this, but my gripe is the countdown which resets every month. If it's ongoing, take down the counter and arbitrary non-existent deadline. At best it's misleading; at worst it's downright dishonest, a trick intended to ensnare buyers into thinking it's now or never.

I think transparency is a reasonable request, and currently this doesn't feel transparent.

[Vigrith]

I haven't contacted any lawyer yet.

I'm not (yet) part of this buy but this is stunning phenomenon to me. In America of all places, if you're: 1. hiring a good lawyer for an amount of money that's worth you going through the trouble and/or 2. actually hiring that proper professional over $400 for the sake of morality and everyone else involved then you should probably ask for a medal or a reward of sorts afterwards. Absolutely not calling you or anyone else out here but I'd imagine making empty threats over something you appear to deem unacceptable is only going to aggravate the situation rather than have any sort of positive effect on it (or anyone else involved).

[Lagomorph]

I understand the disappointment of having to wait longer than anticipated, but the "orders are final" aspect of the project has been in place for as long as I can remember. Here's some text from the site :

Project notes/terms and conditions/risks

I ask that you read through these carefully before placing an order.

Refund/cancellation policy:  Given this is a made-to-order product with an expected lead time of several months, refunds and/or cancellations can not be accepted once your keyboard goes into production (keyboards are currently in production).  All sales are final.

That aspect of the project should not have been a surprise.

[Kevadu]

I'm with you on this, but my gripe is the countdown which resets every month. If it's ongoing, take down the counter and arbitrary non-existent deadline. At best it's misleading; at worst it's downright dishonest, a trick intended to ensnare buyers into thinking it's now or never.

Honestly I have to agree with this.  I'm still excited for this keyboard but the whole resetting countdown to a fake deadline thing was confusing and unnecessary.  Though looking at the site now I don't even see that 'deadline' anymore.  Maybe I'm just missing it or maybe the site was changed since I placed my order.  I definitely remember it being there before though.

[PancakeMSTR]

I understand the disappointment of having to wait longer than anticipated, but the "orders are final" aspect of the project has been in place for as long as I can remember. Here's some text from the site :

Project notes/terms and conditions/risks

I ask that you read through these carefully before placing an order.

Refund/cancellation policy:  Given this is a made-to-order product with an expected lead time of several months, refunds and/or cancellations can not be accepted once your keyboard goes into production (keyboards are currently in production).  All sales are final.

That aspect of the project should not have been a surprise.

Right cause everyone reads the terms and conditions :rollseyes:

[InvidiousIgnoramus]

I understand the disappointment of having to wait longer than anticipated, but the "orders are final" aspect of the project has been in place for as long as I can remember. Here's some text from the site :

Project notes/terms and conditions/risks

I ask that you read through these carefully before placing an order.

Refund/cancellation policy:  Given this is a made-to-order product with an expected lead time of several months, refunds and/or cancellations can not be accepted once your keyboard goes into production (keyboards are currently in production).  All sales are final.

That aspect of the project should not have been a surprise.

Right cause everyone reads the terms and conditions :rollseyes:

That's a statement that won't hold up in court.

[emenelopee]

Probably not court court, but this being so community and good-faith centred, the court of public opinion shouldn't be dismissed.

Also I guess Judge Judy, she doesn't take any nonsense.

[PancakeMSTR]

Right cause everyone reads the terms and conditions :rollseyes:

That's a statement that won't hold up in court.

Right exactly cause they are there to cover the asses of the corporations/whatever, so they put all their slimy **** in there knowing no one reads it.

"Well sorry your 13 year old spent 2000$ on loot boxes but see the game is rated mature so...and also, like, it's not really gambling..."

You get the idea.

[typischt]

Right cause everyone reads the terms and conditions :rollseyes:

That's a statement that won't hold up in court.

Right exactly cause they are there to cover the asses of the corporations/whatever, so they put all their slimy **** in there knowing no one reads it.

"Well sorry your 13 year old spent 2000$ on loot boxes but see the game is rated mature so...and also, like, it's not really gambling..."

You get the idea.

Yeah, well, of course it‘s both ways. I guess you haven‘t been on the other side where you are a small business and you want to protect yourself from douchbag customers.
Not saying anyone here is a douchbag customer, btw, that‘s just reality.

[a_ak57]

This discussion is irrelevant anyway considering Ellipse didn't write the 1000 page "we know they won't read this **** just to use our image editor" terms and conditions people have legitimate gripes with anyway.  If you're getting into a GB where you're spending hundreds of dollars and something like order cancellation is important to you and you can't be assed to read a few paragraphs, that's entirely on you.

I will say though that the fake countdown is pretty odd and I'm not sure why it's ever been a thing.

[futurecrime]

I got into this sometime in the middle of last year, and I definitely thought when I ordered I'd managed to get in just before the deadline. I was naive, but I do think it's very misleading and I probably would have waited to order if I'd have known it just reset every month.  I love what Ellipse is doing here, I think it's genuinely amazing, but I'd take my money back now if I could and wait until boards start shipping to buy one. But whatcha gonna do eh?

[InvidiousIgnoramus]

This discussion is irrelevant anyway considering Ellipse didn't write the 1000 page "we know they won't read this **** just to use our image editor" terms and conditions people have legitimate gripes with anyway.  If you're getting into a GB where you're spending hundreds of dollars and something like order cancellation is important to you and you can't be assed to read a few paragraphs, that's entirely on you.

I will say though that the fake countdown is pretty odd and I'm not sure why it's ever been a thing.

I didn't even notice the countdown thing when i ordered mine last year. Personally I'd assume he set it up when he initially thought everything was just about done and then forgot about it or something. It doesn't seem to serve any actual purpose.

[raymogi]

I've been looking for a few dates for the current production run, but haven't found anything.
When do orders for this run close?
Also, If I just ordered an F62, would I probably be receiving it this year, or later?

This is a "when it's done" project. Your mileage may vary with that concept, I know mine certainly has. I placed my order well over a year ago, and long ago started to ignore any provided dates or deadlines.

Optimistically, I would guess the first boards will be shipped not sooner than 6 months from now. Pessimistically, Q1 2019. Maybe.

Ha, yes. I was 28 when I rushed to get into the 'early bird' allotment. Next month I'm 31 and it's still open  )

Personally, while this project is very ambitious and commendable, I would save your money for a 2nd round (unless you've got cash to burn).

Same here.

Early bird order back when my son was about to be born. 27 months later and my daughter is about to be born

[hansichen]

I will say though that the fake countdown is pretty odd and I'm not sure why it's ever been a thing.

The fake countdown (which was already a thing when I joined the community 1,5 years ago) and the fake delivery dates are very sketchy. He still doesn't know where to produce all the part but every month he says that he "hopes to deliver" by some point in time. I personally don't think that it'll be this year. People who read on dt or geekhack may know about that but people who see links on the internet, on reddit or in some articles won't know about that. Imo Ellipse is just lying to potential customers to make them join.
Maybe some people are still confident cause they don't wanna think about a new Ivan or other disasters that can happen, but in the end this "group buy" is very sketchy.

[Giorgio]

PayPal isn't available anymore.

[supamesican]

I did, in fact, ask for a refund.  I was told that it's a made-to-order product, so no refunds.

However, I'm quite sure that under US law the seller does have to actually deliver at some point or give money back.  I am being patient, for now.  I haven't contacted any lawyer yet.  But Ellipse needs to be aware that this can't go on indefinitely.

Welcome to crowed funding. With the precidents kickstarter and indie gogo have put forth legally I doubt anyone would have luck.

That said meh we get status updates regularly and it looks good to me. I'll wait patiently.

[Khers]

.

[SixtyLife]

I've been looking for a few dates for the current production run, but haven't found anything.
When do orders for this run close?
Also, If I just ordered an F62, would I probably be receiving it this year, or later?

This is a "when it's done" project. Your mileage may vary with that concept, I know mine certainly has. I placed my order well over a year ago, and long ago started to ignore any provided dates or deadlines.

Optimistically, I would guess the first boards will be shipped not sooner than 6 months from now. Pessimistically, Q1 2019. Maybe.

Ha, yes. I was 28 when I rushed to get into the 'early bird' allotment. Next month I'm 31 and it's still open  )

Personally, while this project is very ambitious and commendable, I would save your money for a 2nd round (unless you've got cash to burn).

Same here.

Early bird order back when my son was about to be born. 27 months later and my daughter is about to be born

Similar story here, I bought an F62 as a dissertation gift for myself that would get delivered soon after my defence according to the initial estimate. Here we are, two years after receiving my PhD, still no keyboard. Hey, at least the "early" bird round is still open. Good thing I got my order in early so I secured a slot.

Congrats on PhD!