[Update] Improved TKL?

[Dihedral]

Update: I'm building this board as the Dihedral 79. Main post here.


Update: I have designed this new layout that I feel is potentially a good board for Full Size fans and TKL fans alike. I call it MTK (Merged Ten Key) but better names are appreciated


Not particularly ergonomics related, but I have been wondering how to better improve the TKL Layout. It seems like the sweet spot for me, with all the keys I need without seeming bulky, however it frustrates me how many  pointless keys are on this board. Several I have never used. For me they are, in order of pointlessness:

1. Scroll Lock (pointless LED too)
2. End
3. Home
4. Pause
5. Page Up     
6. Page Down
7. Half the F keys (besides Alt-F4 and to some extent F11, I probably do not use these enough to justify not having them in an FN Layer)

Maybe this is just me (I suspect a fair few of you use Pg Up and Down) but for a supposedly compact keyboard this seems strangely wasteful.

So, to improve the TKL keyboard, what do you feel should be done? What keys should be removed, and which new ones added?

- Dihedral

[Oobly]

Scroll lock is the only key on a TKL I don't use.

I'd replace it with a NumLock button, but instead of enabling a numpad, it makes the board return numpad keycodes for the normal number row so you can write Alt codes easily.

That's it.

I like my 60% boards for the compactness (and usually only use 60% and smaller nowadays), but you can't beat a TKL for functionality and ease of access to useful keys. Everything is where my fingers expect it to be after many years of using the standard layout, particularly for text editing.

[jacobolus]

Improved TKL:

[JaccoW]

Improved TKL:

Show Image

I'm not sure how I feel about this...

[AKmalamute]

I like things about that suggested TKL, but for starters ... the backspace & space have been reversed.

Actually I don't like having backspace or return next to the space. Control I'd rather was up where the ESC was ... and I'd probably move the tilde to past the -/+ to make room for a "conventional" ESC location.

I think I can get behind the rest of it.

On my 7-bit phantom, I've got the left thumb hitting a tab, then 2.5x worth of space bars although with a bit of training I bet I could get used to using one key or the other. Also I've got mouse-keys on the third layer but could, again, adapt to at least scrolley wheels  on the primary layer.

[JaccoW]

To be honest Dihedral, it sounds like you just need a Leopold FC660 layout.
Do you use Insert a lot? Since it isn't mentioned in your OP. I hate that key, then again I write reports and stuff in which the Home-cluster is quite useful.

[jacobolus]

I like things about that suggested TKL, but for starters ... the backspace & space have been reversed.

Sure, put space on whichever thumb you currently use for for the spacebar.

As for the rest, I was trying to change as little as possible relative to current standard keyboards, while still making a large improvement. Thus I was mostly attacking the low hanging fruit: on a standard TKL (like Model M SSK) layout, the worst key positions are escape, backspace, control, right shift, backslash. So I tried to move all of those, as well as making the board better centered on the table, and bringing the arrows and nav keys in closer.

Thumb ctrl keys are way better than ctrl in the outside corners, but if you prefer to put tab or whatever on those thumb keys, and use a pinky for ctrl, that’s also just fine, I'm sure. Or you could use those thumb keys for shift, and put ctrl where the shift keys are in my diagram.

(Or you could use just one thumb key for ctrl, and use the other one for some kind of fn layer, etc. etc.)

[Dihedral]

To be honest Dihedral, it sounds like you just need a Leopold FC660 layout.
Do you use Insert a lot? Since it isn't mentioned in your OP. I hate that key, then again I write reports and stuff in which the Home-cluster is quite useful.

I have really considered that, but just cannot bring myself to like the look of it (sorry 660 fans!).

[Findecanor]

HHKB with split Space Bar, arrow keys, navigation cluster and function keys.
Eject is for Mac users. If you use PC, swap Meta and Alt keys and make Eject into an Insert key.
"Erase Eaze" is the another name used for second Backspace, used on NMB keyboards and also named in the USB HID spec for the code assigned to it.

[Dihedral]

Improved TKL:

Show Image

Sorry, but I just can't like the look of it. It looks like keys have been splattered over a table.

[Dihedral]

Update in OP

[FrostyToast]

Hold on. This just sounds like you want a lightsaver with an 1800 layout and no f row.
They have that in the forum of the Red Scarf II and the Lightsaver Mini.

[Hypersphere]

My favorite form factors are 60% and TKL. My favorite layout is Mac/HHKB. I have tried various in-between keyboards (~65% to 75%), but none of them worked for me. I remap my TKL keyboards to something as close as I can get to a Mac/HHKB layout. This remapping gives me the option to use it like a 60% or to take advantage of the dedicated F-keys and nav keys, but when I use a remapped TKL, it mainly reminds me of the fact that I really don't need the F-keys or nav keys. Therefore, although I like the solid sound and feel of my RF 87ub 55g, I prefer the form factor and intrinsic layout of my HHKB Pro 2.  Accordingly, for me, the improved TKL is a 60% keyboard that can be remapped to a Mac/HHKB layout.

Recently, I bought two KBP V60 keyboards, one with Matias Click and the other with Matias Quiet switches. I've remapped both of them to a Mac/HHKB layout, and I love the Matias switches. They are my current favorites, and I use the V60 Matias Click at home and the V60 Matias Quiet at work.

[FrostyToast]

Here is a picture of the layouts of a 22mini

[FrostyToast]

.

[Dihedral]

Here is a picture of the layouts of a 22mini

Show Image

Nice! I do like the slim look you get from ditching the F Keys. However, I would prefer to keep the arrows away from the main body of the keyboard for gaming/navigation purposes.

[berserkfan]

(Attachment Link)

HHKB with split Space Bar, arrow keys, navigation cluster and function keys.
Eject is for Mac users. If you use PC, swap Meta and Alt keys and make Eject into an Insert key.
"Erase Eaze" is the another name used for second Backspace, used on NMB keyboards and also named in the USB HID spec for the code assigned to it.

I very much like Findecanor's effort. I am still not going for the TKL layout, but at least his is a big improvement without idiosyncratic swapping around of keys.

That said, I am tremendously surprised that most of you programmers haven't figured out what to do with useless keys. Surely you can program scripts to run macros on them! I use scroll lock all the time (for non scroll lock purposes!)

[Dihedral]

(Attachment Link)

HHKB with split Space Bar, arrow keys, navigation cluster and function keys.
Eject is for Mac users. If you use PC, swap Meta and Alt keys and make Eject into an Insert key.
"Erase Eaze" is the another name used for second Backspace, used on NMB keyboards and also named in the USB HID spec for the code assigned to it.

I very much like Findecanor's effort. I am still not going for the TKL layout, but at least his is a big improvement without idiosyncratic swapping around of keys.

That said, I am tremendously surprised that most of you programmers haven't figured out what to do with useless keys. Surely you can program scripts to run macros on them! I use scroll lock all the time (for non scroll lock purposes!)

I also very much like it. It influenced the v2 of my TKL as shown in the updated version (here)

[berserkfan]

Seeing the latest version of your stuff, I can't help but ask if you want to consider merging your design with the 7bit Phantom with all keys activated. Since you're looking for TKL format anyway, if you accept the Phantom PCB then there is no need to do all that work making new plates, PCB, etc. IIRC the only thing that will be lacking is the 7bit doesn't have a space for your Del key in the center.

Back in the days when I wanted the 7bit layout, I considered many such layouts.

[Melvang]

(Attachment Link)

HHKB with split Space Bar, arrow keys, navigation cluster and function keys.
Eject is for Mac users. If you use PC, swap Meta and Alt keys and make Eject into an Insert key.
"Erase Eaze" is the another name used for second Backspace, used on NMB keyboards and also named in the USB HID spec for the code assigned to it.

I very much like Findecanor's effort. I am still not going for the TKL layout, but at least his is a big improvement without idiosyncratic swapping around of keys.

That said, I am tremendously surprised that most of you programmers haven't figured out what to do with useless keys. Surely you can program scripts to run macros on them! I use scroll lock all the time (for non scroll lock purposes!)

I also very much like it. It influenced the v2 of my TKL as shown in the updated version (here)

That exact layout is a bit of a unicorn at least for factory boards.  The only one that I know of that will get you close is the IBM 4704 terminal board in the 77 key variety.  There are only 3 known boards in the GH/DT community.  One owner at DT has a pair and might be selling one.  The problem is it will be VERY expensive.  I am not going to say the price (I was talking with him on a possible trade with some cash exchange for it but got shot down), but I will say it was more than the Sherline 2000 mill with DRO I was looking at. 

Outside of that, you are looking at a custom job.

[Dihedral]

(Attachment Link)

HHKB with split Space Bar, arrow keys, navigation cluster and function keys.
Eject is for Mac users. If you use PC, swap Meta and Alt keys and make Eject into an Insert key.
"Erase Eaze" is the another name used for second Backspace, used on NMB keyboards and also named in the USB HID spec for the code assigned to it.

I very much like Findecanor's effort. I am still not going for the TKL layout, but at least his is a big improvement without idiosyncratic swapping around of keys.

That said, I am tremendously surprised that most of you programmers haven't figured out what to do with useless keys. Surely you can program scripts to run macros on them! I use scroll lock all the time (for non scroll lock purposes!)

I also very much like it. It influenced the v2 of my TKL as shown in the updated version (here)

That exact layout is a bit of a unicorn at least for factory boards.  The only one that I know of that will get you close is the IBM 4704 terminal board in the 77 key variety.  There are only 3 known boards in the GH/DT community.  One owner at DT has a pair and might be selling one.  The problem is it will be VERY expensive.  I am not going to say the price (I was talking with him on a possible trade with some cash exchange for it but got shot down), but I will say it was more than the Sherline 2000 mill with DRO I was looking at. 

Outside of that, you are looking at a custom job.

Oh yeah, I don't expect to be able to find it. I will probably build it myself, if I get round to it. Having said that, that IBM board is super awesome. I want one really bad!

[Liar]

I also very much like it. It influenced the v2 of my TKL as shown in the updated version (here)

Amazingly designed

If it were a commercial product I would pruchase one

[Dihedral]

I also very much like it. It influenced the v2 of my TKL as shown in the updated version (here)

Amazingly designed

If it were a commercial product I would pruchase one

Thanks If there is interest, I might make a limited number for sale. But I'd like to make myself one first

[PieterGen]

How about a very small change? If you put the top row 0.25 to the left, the layout is more symmetric, yet still familiar.

[Melvang]

How about a very small change? If you put the top row 0.25 to the left, the layout is more symmetric, yet still familiar.

Show Image

Because now you have non standard caps aside from just the bottom row.  Tab and \ in those sizes might be tough to find.

[jacobolus]

How about a very small change?

Because now you have non standard caps aside from just the bottom row.

Keycaps is not the main reason to avoid this though. The main reason is that shifting away from the standard stagger imposes a big learning cost and big switching-back-and-forth cost for anyone with years of experience on other keyboards. Shifting the top row over by 3/16" yields almost no practical benefit (the keyboard is still terrible from an “ergonomics” perspective); the only real advantages are (subjective) aesthetic ones. Not worth it.

[Findecanor]

That said, I am tremendously surprised that most of you programmers haven't figured out what to do with useless keys.

I've got PrtScr, ScrLk and Pause mapped as media keys on my home computer. Pause is of course Play/Pause.

I think that it is better to reduce the number of columns than the number of rows.
The arrow keys were placed higher up in my layout for ergonomics: closer to home row means less hand movement.

[Dihedral]

How about a very small change?

Show Image

Because now you have non standard caps aside from just the bottom row.

Keycaps is not the main reason to avoid this though. The main reason is that shifting away from the standard stagger imposes a big learning cost and big switching-back-and-forth cost for anyone with years of experience on other keyboards. Shifting the top row over by 3/16" yields almost no practical benefit (the keyboard is still terrible from an “ergonomics” perspective); the only real advantages are (subjective) aesthetic ones. Not worth it.

This. If I'm going to build this keyboard I want to be able to just start using it. If I was going to go the ergo route I would go the whole way and get a split board.

[PieterGen]

Fair enough :-)  You've already done a great job with the spacebar and arrows/numpad. Good luck with the development/building/selling :-)

[Melvang]

instead of having a full PCB for testing and prototype, just get some enablers form techkeys.

[Dihedral]

instead of having a full PCB for testing and prototype, just get some enablers form techkeys.

So you just lay those guys out how you like, hook them up to a teensy and test?

[Melvang]

instead of having a full PCB for testing and prototype, just get some enablers form techkeys.

So you just lay those guys out how you like, hook them up to a teensy and test?

see https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=67848.0

[Dihedral]

instead of having a full PCB for testing and prototype, just get some enablers form techkeys.

So you just lay those guys out how you like, hook them up to a teensy and test?

see https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=67848.0

Or couldn't you just directly wire them? isn't that easier and cheaper?

[Melvang]

true but more difficult soldering plus with enablers there is the option of PCB mount stabs

[Dihedral]

true but more difficult soldering plus with enablers there is the option of PCB mount stabs

I'll look into it thanks for the info

[jacobolus]

Personally I think the enablers are a total waste of money that don’t save any effort. But YMMV.

[Dihedral]

Personally I think the enablers are a total waste of money that don’t save any effort. But YMMV.

Yeah, I still don't totally see the benefit.

[Liar]

Have you considered moving the integrated numpad to the left side of the keyboard?

I use a separate numpad currently and it sits on the left side, although the arrows and nav cluster are still on the right of my TKL

Edit: which hand is which

[blazarcher]

Have you considered moving the integrated numpad to the left side of the keyboard?

I use a separate numpad currently and it sits on the left side, although the arrows and nav cluster are still on the left of my TKL

This would be great for people who need space between the right side of their keyboard and the mouse, like me =)

[Dihedral]

Have you considered moving the integrated numpad to the left side of the keyboard?

I use a separate numpad currently and it sits on the left side, although the arrows and nav cluster are still on the left of my TKL

This would be great for people who need space between the right side of their keyboard and the mouse, like me =)

Maybe I could move the whole block across but it would be too big to have a nav cluster on one side and the numpad on the other. That's as long as a fullsize. If this were to go into commercial production then an option would be offered for a left side nav/num block.

[PieterGen]

Or....  put the numblock in the middle? That way you get more hand separation plus easier access to the mouse, for both righthanders and lefthanders.

I did maintain the standard stagger in this suggestion. For easier adoption.

[Dihedral]

Or....  put the numblock in the middle? That way you get more hand separation plus easier access to the mouse, for both righthanders and lefthanders.

I did maintain the standard stagger in this suggestion. For easier adoption.

Show Image

That is a really interesting idea. I'm not sure it would suit me (I use the arrow keys a lot and to have them in the middle would be a pain) but I'm sure some people would find that really useful.

[PieterGen]

I made some mistakes,  this one is better.

[Dihedral]

I made some mistakes,  this one is better.

Show Image

You're right, that's a better layout. You might be able to find a market for this actually. Maybe an IC?

[Liar]

I made some mistakes,  this one is better.

Show Image

I like this idea better than block on the left, well done

[neverused]

Interesting, you'll likely get symmetric stagger suggestions for this too

[Findecanor]

I did maintain the standard stagger in this suggestion. For easier adoption.

Show Image

Have you ever found any backwards Enter keys like those?

[Melvang]

I made some mistakes,  this one is better.

Show Image

This actually looks very inviting.

[Dihedral]

I made some mistakes,  this one is better.

Show Image

This actually looks very inviting.

I agree. My only issue would be the awkward positioning of the arrow keys.

[PieterGen]

Hi Dihedral - yes, the arrows may (or may not) be in a hard position? Got to try that out.  Anyway, feel free to steal any idea from me. Or not, the Improved TKL is your idea and project.