Razer to release their own keyswitch

[nubbinator]

Of course, this could just be nonsense as well.

If you have a switch whose actuation point is 1.6mm +/- 0.5mm, you can claim anything within the 1.4mm to 1.8mm range as the actuation point and know that enough switches will fall into that range that it's not a lie.  I almost guarantee that it's just the companies fudging within spec to make it sound unique.  It happens all the time.

[bueller]

Of course, this could just be nonsense as well.

If you have a switch whose actuation point is 1.6mm +/- 0.5mm, you can claim anything within the 1.4mm to 1.8mm range as the actuation point and know that enough switches will fall into that range that it's not a lie.  I almost guarantee that it's just the companies fudging within spec to make it sound unique.  It happens all the time.

Yeah I had to have a good laugh when the "reviewer" said he could easily pick the difference in actuation point.

[Grendel]

This is just ridiculous. The debounce routine has probably more impact on the latency than a .3mm difference in travel. And knowing about Razers shoddy firmware design I doubt that these boards have ANY advantage over any board in the same price range or even cheaper boards. Razer is only good in one department and that is marketing. Pity the fool who falls for it.

[BlueBär]

Yeah I had to have a good laugh when the "reviewer" said he could easily pick the difference in actuation point.

Even in a direct comparison I don't think you can feel 0,3mm

Isn’t it possible that Razer contracted Kailh to make a different switch for them, with different characteristics than previous Kailh switches, and potentially with tighter tolerances & better Q/A?

I don’t see how anyone can know that the switch is garbage without trying it or taking it apart and looking at the insides.

Yes that possible, but it's not what happened. If you compare the specs it's just a differently coloured Kailh Blue, same point of actuation, same actuation force, etc. There is nothing new here.
I'm not saying they will feel bad - because they will feel like MX Blues. However it is still a knock off that gets marketed as a new innovation and improvement, while likely using cheaper plastic. The boards also get sold at the same price as before, meaning the customer doesn't gain anything from the cheaper switches either.
As somebody else said earlier in this thread, they're just maximizing profit.

It's possible, but honestly I can't see Kailh spending money to tighten up the tolerances on their equipment just for Razer. Can almost guarantee these are straight off the standard production line with a different stem and possibly a different spring.

They have the same actuation forces, so not even a different spring...

[Grendel]

What I'm missing in the Razor hype is the contact type of the "new" switches. "Gold cross-point" surely would have been worth mentioning, so would have been "gold contact" (what serious marketeer would pass an opportunity to associate their product w/ gold ?) I did not see it on Razer's or Kailh's site...

[inteli722]

What I'm missing in the Razor hype is the contact type of the "new" switches. "Gold cross-point" surely would have been worth mentioning, so would have been "gold contact" (what serious marketeer would pass an opportunity to associate their product w/ gold ?) I did not see it on Razer's or Kailh's site...

That's because Kailh doesn't use gold contacts. That's a Cherry thing, as it raises costs.

[hashbaz]

Isn’t it possible that Razer contracted Kailh to make a different switch for them, with different characteristics than previous Kailh switches, and potentially with tighter tolerances & better Q/A?

I don’t see how anyone can know that the switch is garbage without trying it or taking it apart and looking at the insides.

Yes, sure, it’s a “knock off”, but MX switches are 30 years old now, so making a solid-quality imitation doesn’t necessarily take the best engineering and manufacturing geniuses of the world. I can definitely imagine a switch with some slight changes to the slider which would be an improvement over the existing Cherry MX switches (which I personally don’t like, but whatever).

This is the story I am getting out of the marketing material plus the video review posted a few pages back.  But BlueBär's rebuttal above is also pretty convincing.

Speaking of that video review, Linus said that hysteresis was reduced in the Razer greens vs. MX blues.  Is that a known property of Kailh switches?  Or more creative use of margin of error?

[wetto]

To me, Razer is just like McDonald’s. They don’t have the best product, any decent restaurant will be able to provide better hamburgers than they do, but they still sell the most since they have a strong marketing and logistics department. You can find them just about anywhere and everyone talks about them, plus no matter how bad their product actually is, their marketing makes it look good.

Also, just like Razer, they focus on giving “cool” little extras to children instead of a decent meal/keyboard and that's most likely the main reason why they prefer them.

[Candyflip]

To me, Razer is just like McDonald’s. They don’t have the best product, any decent restaurant will be able to provide better hamburgers than they do, but they still sell the most since they have a strong marketing and logistics department. You can find them just about anywhere and everyone talks about them, plus no matter how bad their product actually is, their marketing makes it look good.

Also, just like Razer, they focus on giving “cool” little extras to children instead of a decent meal/keyboard and that's most likely the main reason why they prefer them.

McDonald's ain't that expensive though...

[davkol]

To me, Razer is just like McDonald’s. They don’t have the best product, any decent restaurant will be able to provide better hamburgers than they do, but they still sell the most since they have a strong marketing and logistics department. You can find them just about anywhere and everyone talks about them, plus no matter how bad their product actually is, their marketing makes it look good.

Also, just like Razer, they focus on giving “cool” little extras to children instead of a decent meal/keyboard and that's most likely the main reason why they prefer them.

McDonald's ain't that expensive though...

Very expensive for fast food almost everywhere outside the US.

[zeroni13]

To me, Razer is just like McDonald’s. They don’t have the best product, any decent restaurant will be able to provide better hamburgers than they do, but they still sell the most since they have a strong marketing and logistics department. You can find them just about anywhere and everyone talks about them, plus no matter how bad their product actually is, their marketing makes it look good.

Also, just like Razer, they focus on giving “cool” little extras to children instead of a decent meal/keyboard and that's most likely the main reason why they prefer them.

I like that analogy! Maybe McDonald's should have little Razer keyboard in their Happy Meals!

[jacobolus]

To me, Razer is just like McDonald’s. They don’t have the best product, any decent restaurant will be able to provide better hamburgers than they do, but they still sell the most since they have a strong marketing and logistics department.

McDonalds provides great value from a simple calorie/$ perspective. If you’re poor, and don’t easily the time or means to buy proper groceries and cook your own meals, then there aren’t really any substantially cheaper options than McDonalds. Futhermore, as you point out, McDonalds is ubiquitous; their big advantage is logistics, just keeping such a big operation running smoothly; in competition with other fast food restaurants, they’ve squeezed all the slack out of food production.

Of course, the food isn’t very tasty, or very healthy. But what do you expect for the price?

Anyway, I don’t think there’s a super strong analog to McDonalds in the keyboard world, as the biggest cheap rubber dome vendors (most similar from a product perspective) don’t have nearly the same kind of marketing muscle or brand recognition that McDonalds has.

[Charizard^]

To me, Razer is just like McDonald’s. They don’t have the best product, any decent restaurant will be able to provide better hamburgers than they do, but they still sell the most since they have a strong marketing and logistics department.

McDonalds provides great value from a simple calorie/$ perspective. If you’re poor, and don’t easily the time or means to buy proper groceries and cook your own meals, then there aren’t really any substantially cheaper options than McDonalds. Futhermore, as you point out, McDonalds is ubiquitous; their big advantage is logistics, just keeping such a big operation running smoothly; in competition with other fast food restaurants, they’ve squeezed all the slack out of food production.

Of course, the food isn’t very tasty, or very healthy. But what do you expect for the price?

Anyway, I don’t think there’s a super strong analog to McDonalds in the keyboard world, as the biggest cheap rubber dome vendors (most similar from a product perspective) don’t have nearly the same kind of marketing muscle or brand recognition that McDonalds has.

It really depends were you buy McDonalds, as davkol pointed out. Also, even in the US, groceries can still be a cheaper option. 

[Melvang]

There are always better options price wise than McDonalds.  You just need to be smarter about the groceries that you buy.

[jacobolus]

There are always better options price wise than McDonalds.

This is getting further off topic, but..

What option is (1) ubiquitous, (2) already prepared/nearly instant, (3) substantially cheaper than McDonalds?

I think McDonalds food is pretty gross, and personally I mostly cook food at home. But for someone who is e.g. a single parent working 2 jobs and living month-to-month, I can definitely understand the attraction. McDonalds food (and similar fast food like pizza, burritos, &c.; and also instant [like microwaveable] packaged processed food, say instant noodles, packaged mac&cheese, hot pockets, etc.) is cheap and calorie-dense. It’s not great nutrition, but it’ll keep your family nominally alive.

Lots of people have poor access to fresh ingredients, inadequate kitchens, little extra time for grocery shopping, and little extra energy at the end of difficult stressful jobs for cooking.

[Charizard^]

I actually really want McDonalds now....

[rowdy]

I actually really want McDonalds now....

Make sure you wash your hands afterwards, before you touch your keyboard again

[bazh]

Yeah, McDonald, their hamburger is 3 times more expensive compared to our street foods )

[ideus]

Yeah, McDonald, their hamburger is 3 times more expensive compared to our street foods )

Pictures??, nah just joking, we may be accused to be out of focus in the thread.

[RESPRiT]

There are always better options price wise than McDonalds.

This is getting further off topic, but..

What option is (1) ubiquitous, (2) already prepared/nearly instant, (3) substantially cheaper than McDonalds?

I think McDonalds food is pretty gross, and personally I mostly cook food at home. But for someone who is e.g. a single parent working 2 jobs and living month-to-month, I can definitely understand the attraction. McDonalds food (and similar fast food like pizza, burritos, &c.; and also instant [like microwaveable] packaged processed food, say instant noodles, packaged mac&cheese, hot pockets, etc.) is cheap and calorie-dense. It’s not great nutrition, but it’ll keep your family nominally alive.

Lots of people have poor access to fresh ingredients, inadequate kitchens, little extra time for grocery shopping, and little extra energy at the end of difficult stressful jobs for cooking.

Well, like other people have said, in places outside of the US, street food is much cheaper. Although your argument is totally valid and often brought up in the US when people talk about the idea of taxing fast food and stuff.

[Melvang]

Even with as much pop as I drink I would not be opposed to a tax of fast food or pop so long as the money brought in went somewhere worth while.  Like maybe local farmers markets or education on the benefits of cooking at home vs McFatburgers.

[berserkfan]

Razer is only good in one department and that is marketing. Pity the fool who falls for it.

Unfortunately, that's the department Deck is totally incompetent in.

We need Deck to have tons of fanboys to send in 1,000,000 complaints about their stupid font. Then Deck will figure that it is worth the money to make a nicer font for their PBT keycaps.

[RESPRiT]

Razer is only good in one department and that is marketing. Pity the fool who falls for it.

Unfortunately, that's the department Deck is totally incompetent in.

We need Deck to have tons of fanboys to send in 1,000,000 complaints about their stupid font. Then Deck will figure that it is worth the money to make a nicer font for their PBT keycaps.

That font is seriously holding them back. They've had this awesome competitive advantage with backlit PBT caps for a while, but no one wants them because they look ridiculous..

[tribade]

Razer is only good in one department and that is marketing. Pity the fool who falls for it.

Unfortunately, that's the department Deck is totally incompetent in.

We need Deck to have tons of fanboys to send in 1,000,000 complaints about their stupid font. Then Deck will figure that it is worth the money to make a nicer font for their PBT keycaps.

That font is seriously holding them back. They've had this awesome competitive advantage with backlit PBT caps for a while, but no one wants them because they look ridiculous..

I agree.  It's really a shame, too since they seem to have great quality boards.  I would never get one though because of that awful font, unless I already had a replacement set of caps ready.  I wonder why they're so attached to it.

[davkol]

The font is at least sort of original, unlike the ridiculous monstrosities on most other gamerzzz equipment, Razer included.

[nubbinator]

I agree.  It's really a shame, too since they seem to have great quality boards.  I would never get one though because of that awful font, unless I already had a replacement set of caps ready.  I wonder why they're so attached to it.

It's "branding" and "brand recognition".

[Hyde]

I agree.  It's really a shame, too since they seem to have great quality boards.  I would never get one though because of that awful font, unless I already had a replacement set of caps ready.  I wonder why they're so attached to it.

It's "branding" and "brand recognition".

It's widely recognized as crayon scribble and they seriously lost a lot of sales because of that.

I haven't met one person so far that prefer the current font over regular font.  Like literally, no one.

Like if they used the Helvetica font they have on their Asian edition I would've bought one already.  Too bad it's ABS then there's no point to get a Deck anymore.

[nubbinator]

It's "branding" and "brand recognition".

It's widely recognized as crayon scribble and they seriously lost a lot of sales because of that.

I haven't met one person so far that prefer the current font over regular font.  Like literally, no one.

Like if they used the Helvetica font they have on their Asian edition I would've bought one already.  Too bad it's ABS then there's no point to get a Deck anymore.

I'm not disagreeing with you in the least.  I'm just telling you what I'm sure  their marketing department is saying.  I seem to remember a rep of theirs saying something similar in here when people were pleading with them to change the god awful font.

[False_Dmitry_II]

Eh, I don't mind it. I just had to look it up though. If I had the money and preferred cherry, and really wanted backlit for some reason, that's what I'd go for. Most of the vintage stuff I use has PBT keys, and I far prefer it. Though I haven't used POM yet.

[boardcolletor]

I kinda want to buy some orange ones to switch into my QFR to try.  Will they sell the parts individually?

I really doubt it. As has already been said you're best bet will probably be getting used/defective boards on ebay.

Actually the best place for cheapo used Razer boards and PCBs is Taobao. I think they were going for 40RMB (USD8). That's one full PCB of blue switches. Presumably, when the kailh orange switches start failing, you should also be able to get a full PCB worth at 40RMB.

Suggest you pick up a board when buying something else. That way shipping is combined at your proxy shipper. It's much more worth it that way. I personally had a bad experience combining shipping with Taobaofocus, but many geekhackers are raving about these guys.

Pabbos  is also a professional Taobao agent in China.

[RESPRiT]

Ay, there are lots of Taobao agents. Qtan here does proxying if you'd like.

[Hyde]

It's "branding" and "brand recognition".

It's widely recognized as crayon scribble and they seriously lost a lot of sales because of that.

I haven't met one person so far that prefer the current font over regular font.  Like literally, no one.

Like if they used the Helvetica font they have on their Asian edition I would've bought one already.  Too bad it's ABS then there's no point to get a Deck anymore.

I'm not disagreeing with you in the least.  I'm just telling you what I'm sure  their marketing department is saying.  I seem to remember a rep of theirs saying something similar in here when people were pleading with them to change the god awful font.

LOL sorry I guess Deck font made me angry and I sounded like I was arguing but I actually wasn't.

Just wanted to rant on their fonts. 

Thanks for the info though, I guess in this case they'll never change their font.  They better hope Vortex won't release their double shot keycap soon, otherwise it will be the end of Deck.

[Findecanor]

I got to try a BW 2014 with these switches at a trade show today, briefly, but I knew what to feel for. From my very subjective test, I think that it indeed does have shorter travel before actuation than MX blue and less hysteresis, at the expense of more resistance on the rebound right before it tops up. The difference to modern Cherry MX Blue is very subtle, though. I find there to be more difference between modern and vintage Cherry MX blue.

One interesting detail, however is that an unpressed key has less play side to side than Cherry MX, which means that the key don't rattle as much. I didn't find it to be sturdier when pressed, though.

I knew Razer was going to be there. I kick myself for forgetting to bring my Ducky keychain with a modern MX blue on it, which I was supposed to, or I would have been able to do a much better comparison.

[Bucake]

[hate] pretty much everything i see razer say (about their products) just looks like a gimmick to me.
i'm probably just a hater, but i don't think i'll ever see them make anything which is truly better or different.

the only thing i was ever interested in was their deathadder 2013 (mouse), but i just didn't like how they're just trying to force customers into being exclusive (razer synapse 2.0). i realise that every company would like you to be exclusive to them, but i prefer businesses trying to get customers to be it, just by making awesome products.

i see nothing but 'clever advertisement' when i look at razer, really.

anyway.. [/hate]

[BlueBär]

I got to try a BW 2014 with these switches at a trade show today, briefly, but I knew what to feel for. From my very subjective test, I think that it indeed does have shorter travel before actuation than MX blue and less hysteresis, at the expense of more resistance on the rebound right before it tops up. The difference to modern Cherry MX Blue is very subtle, though. I find there to be more difference between modern and vintage Cherry MX blue.

If there is actually shorter travel before actuation I guess the difference is more than the advertised 0,3mm. I still doubt that you can feel that much. Less hysteresis might be interesting, would like to see how they did that.

[Techno Trousers]

I'd like to see some double blind comparisons by touch typists between these and Cherry switches. That's the only way to know for sure if this is is anything more than marketing speak.

[Grendel]

I would be very surprised if there was more than marketing speak behind these switches. That would be a first for Razer...

[RESPRiT]

Even if the switches are different to any degree, it's not like switches are "better" than each other anyways. To say that their switches are better for gamers is obviously bull because that's completely subjective to the person.

[jacobolus]

I'd like to see some double blind comparisons by touch typists between these and Cherry switches. That's the only way to know for sure if this is is anything more than marketing speak.

I’d like to see (a) some blind comparisons, and (b) some quality third-party measurements.

[False_Dmitry_II]

Even if the switches are different to any degree, it's not like switches are "better" than each other anyways. To say that their switches are better for gamers is obviously bull because that's completely subjective to the person.

If their version really doesn't have hysteresis I consider that to be an objective indicator, and can be used on those grounds alone to claim to be better than MX blues, especially for gaming. Even if nothing else is different.

BTW, some of their marketing is about having their own QC people in kailh's factories to make sure the stuff they stick the razor name on is "good enough" for them. If this is true, quality could also be actually better, at least over regular kailh switches. For all we know they could even be using a better grade of plastic for the sliders. We'd need to do a bunch of tests with these vs kailh vs cherry to know for certain.

[Findecanor]

If their version really doesn't have hysteresis I consider that to be an objective indicator, and can be used on those grounds alone to claim to be better than MX blues, especially for gaming.

They do have hysteresis, there is no doubt about it. It works the same way as Cherry MX Blue, and that means hysteresis.
Also, I did feel that it did have hysteresis, but I think that the hysteresis is smaller.

[BlueBär]

They do have hysteresis, there is no doubt about it. It works the same way as Cherry MX Blue, and that means hysteresis.
Also, I did feel that it did have hysteresis, but I think that the hysteresis is smaller.

I think a disassembled switch might give us some answers if there is actually less hysteresis and if so, how they accomplished it.

[Razor Lotus]

what's hysteresis?

I did a google search and it means that not dependent on it's past. Means that the switches don.. wear out?

[HPE1000]

what's hysteresis?

I did a google search and it means that not dependent on it's past. Means that the switches don.. wear out?

It means the reset point is higher than the actuation point. I'm 99% sure about that.

[Findecanor]

Hysteresis means that the reset point is higher up than the actuation point.

[Jixr]

i played with them the other day as well, to me, i could barely feel the actuation difference, if at all.

thing that I found surprising was ( to me ) they sounded quieter than mx blues.

nothing special though.

[dustinhxc]

Uhhhhh I need these orange switches in my boards... Sexy... 

[squarebox]

Oranges feels a tad stiffer than browns imo.

[nubbinator]

Uhhhhh I need these orange switches in my boards... Sexy... 

There are some orange stems on Taobao that are to be sold when their GH60 orders sell.

[rowdy]

Oranges feels a tad stiffer than browns imo.

This talk of orange stems is so weird.

Need to get some with transparent keycaps, eh?