[IC] Mercury Rocketeer

[zslane]

Many of you are already familiar with the Hermes Rocketeer set proposal, but it has reached a critical impasse and I need the interested segment of the community to weigh in on this. The question before you is this: which SA style do you feel would be the preferred choice given all the issues currently facing SA production? Below are images of the three options we have.

First up is fully sculpted, double-shot ABS:


Next up is fully sculpted, dye-sub PBT:


And last up is uniform R3, dye-sub PBT:


The pros and cons of each are as follows:

Fully sculptured, double-shot ABS
Pros:

• Slightly more saturated colors
• Clearest, most durable legends
• Sculptured row profiles help emulate stepped rows of the original Hermes Rocket typewriter

Cons:

• More expensive due to the custom legend plates needed for the novelty legends
• Production would be on hold indefinitely due to current backlog at Signature Plastics

Fully sculptured, dye-sub PBT
Pros:

• Novelty legends incur no additional production cost (or time)
• Sculptured row profiles help emulate stepped rows of the original Hermes Rocket typewriter
• Use of dye-sub process avoids extreme scheduling constraints

Cons:

• Slightly less saturated colors (compared to ABS colors)
• Production date can not currently be determined due to lack of dye-sub assembly boards for the SA family at Signature Plastics(*)

Uniform R3, dye-sub PBT
Pros:

• Novelty legends incur no additional production cost (or time)
• Use of dye-sub process avoids extreme scheduling constraints
• Uniform R3 would reduce the size and cost of some kits due to intrinsic row flexibility
• Use of uniform R3 profile allows production to occur immediately

Cons:

• Slightly less saturated colors (compared to ABS colors)
• Uniform R3 profile can not compensate for lack of stepped rows in keyboard plates

(*) SP claims to be "working on" assembly boards for R1 and R2 row profiles for dye-sub SA setups, but have given no estimates of when they will be completed. There's no telling which will come first, full sculptured dye-sub SA or a cleared double-shot SA backlog.

So, given the pros and cons listed above, where do interested folks stand on the question? Is uniform R3 dye-sub PBT SA acceptable? Or are fully sculptured rows worth waiting for, even though we have no way of knowing if the wait will be three months or three years? And how important are double-shot legends? I, for one, do not see a clear advantage over dye-sub with this set given that the legends are black. But what say you?

[hansichen]

I think i would vote for uniform SA pbt. As abs would probably be a thing of summer 2018 or later maybe there could be a later run with sculpted profile in future, but for the moment i would go with R3 pbt.

Do you know more about the pricing, the last pbt group buy (metro) seemed much higher than the last abs oner (eg dasher). Is it just "normal" price increase or is pbt much more expensive?

[chuckdee]

Though I do like uniform better in many cases, this is not one of those cases.  You're trying to recreate a certain aesthetic that uniform can't duplicate, so something would be lost in the effort.  And Double-shot all the way.  It's a classic design, with a classic air, and one of the few that I'd base a build completely around.  My suggestion would be to stick with your vision, no matter what the queues look like.

[Jedi]

TBH I don't see an issue with the wait.  More time to go through a proper IC with feedback + hype can't be a bad thing.  So SP is backlogged, would it be better to have no backlog and struggle through MOQ?  I personally like the fully sculpted SA profile in doubleshot.  The backlog on SP can and should work in the keycap designer's favor, just a theory though, I guess.

Dasher and Dancer took forever it seemed, finally went to drop, made success, win win. 

[Vigrith]

You already know my opinion so I'll just say I'm extremely pleased to see this! I really do hope this comes to be sooner rather than later.

[jal]

Honestly like the fully sculpted a lot more with this set. And prefer nice to fast, generally speaking.

[Puddsy]

my preferred SA style is DCS

[Tally810]

I like sculpted either way.  I've never used pbt sa caps so that could be cool

Sent from my SM-G928V using Tapatalk

[zslane]

Thank for weighing in, everyone!

The clear message I'm getting is that sculptured is the way to go regardless of how long the wait might be. Fair enough. Sculptured it is then! 

[TheNamesTy45]

I love this. I'm so in with this being fully sculptured.

[Niomosy]

I'm probably in on this set regardless.  PBT sculptured dyesub probably ties with ABS sculptured as I'm definitely curious about sculptured dyesub SA.  Even R3 PBT dyesub is fine as it would be my first R3 SA set of any kind along with my first PBT dyesub SA set.

[ChitownM2]

I'd probably say go option 3. To me it sounds like a choice between getting a set done now or possibly never doing it. By the time options 1 or 2 become viable you might have other projects that interest you now or who knows what else. Besides, option 3 doesn't prevent you from doing option 1 or 2 in a year from now if the interest from the creator and the demand are still there.

[B1G_B1RD]

I think i would also prefer fully sculpted.

[ghostdeini]

I'm leaning most towards Option 1. Go big or go home!

Also, if the wait is outrageously long (like notably longer than normal)... would you ever consider trying to get a quote from Maxkeys, just to see what the competition might offer?

[zslane]

At this time, there are simply too many obstacles to getting a set like Rocketeer produced by MaxKeys and run through MassDrop. It is hard to imagine circumstances in which going with MaxKeys would be preferable over SP.

[Niomosy]

I'm leaning most towards Option 1. Go big or go home!

Also, if the wait is outrageously long (like notably longer than normal)... would you ever consider trying to get a quote from Maxkeys, just to see what the competition might offer?

The wait right now is currently through 2017 while SP handles outstanding orders for doubleshot SA sets.  We're still waiting to see when they'll begin taking doubleshot SA orders again.  That means an early 2018 production slot in a best case scenario where this is one of the first doubleshot SA sets to get put through after the ordering freeze. 

[zslane]

Right.

Bear in mind that there's a lot more to this package than just the keycaps. I want to put together a (MassDrop) group buy that involves the keycaps, a (60%) keyboard, a custom aluminum case (hopefully designed by Rama), and a color-matched cable. Each of these components could be ordered separately, of course, but I really want buyers to have the opportunity to get an entire keyboard (+cable) in one beautiful, deluxe package if they want. Pulling all this together will take quite a bit of time, and so I don't foresee this being a 2017 thing in any case.

[zslane]

BTW, here are the kits as I envision them at this time. The row profiles would be 1-2-3-4-3. Note that for the blanks, I am thinking that each row might be its own kit. But, of course, nothing is set in stone just yet.

[Niomosy]

Right.

Bear in mind that there's a lot more to this package than just the keycaps. I want to put together a (MassDrop) group buy that involves the keycaps, a (60%) keyboard, a custom aluminum case (hopefully designed by Rama), and a color-matched cable. Each of these components could be ordered separately, of course, but I really want buyers to have the opportunity to get an entire keyboard (+cable) in one beautiful, deluxe package if they want. Pulling all this together will take quite a bit of time, and so I don't foresee this being a 2017 thing in any case.

I think if you keep to that bundling of product, the current doubleshot SA timeline isn't such a huge deal.   I may be mistaken but the bundle might swing voting more toward doubleshot given the retro vibe of this set.

[zslane]

We now have a Chinese clone to compete with... they even took (part of) the name. 

[ChitownM2]

Shady as hell.

[Puddsy]

Shady as hell.

welcome to mechanical keyboards

[breusch91]

I'd love to try fully sculpted dye sub pbt.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[nubbinator]

I really like this idea (aside from the profile).  It's similar to the Underwood Universal idea I had in terms of colors, but I think the colors you have work better...assuming SP can match them.

[zslane]

Well, my renders are based on the SP colors in their ABS chip set. Of course they are RGB approximations, but I feel confident that the real VCO and VAF would be a sufficiently close/good match.

[Trente]

Really love this color way, perosonally I would like some uniform format like SA R3 or DSA, since I have had wired keyboard with werid layout so the compatibility matters to me. But normal SA works out well either! 

[kconfire]

sculpted dye-sub PBT!!!

[hansichen]

There was a post at the what's new section at pmk that sculpted pbt SA won't happen before late 2018, so if we are going for that it will be a good ammount of wait time

[Niomosy]

I think PBT was a secondary option as an alternative to the doubleshot SA backlog.  I don't currently see anything on the PMK site noting 2018 for PBT sculptured right now but hopefully that's not the case as I'd like to see SP expand their PBT color options so we've got more colorway possibilities there.

[cmc]

Given the time to pull all the other components together, waiting on SP seems fine.  Also, although I'll probably get the whole kit when it's available, I would love to have the option to put these keys on a larger (at least TKL) keyboard.

[hansichen]

I think PBT was a secondary option as an alternative to the doubleshot SA backlog.  I don't currently see anything on the PMK site noting 2018 for PBT sculptured right now but hopefully that's not the case as I'd like to see SP expand their PBT color options so we've got more colorway possibilities there.

They deleted it some days ago, no idea how long it has been there as their communication is quite messy I hoped for an earlier date too but it seemed like they have problems with tooling and that this is their expected time until they have all the new stuff. But as it's deleted now maybe there will be some other timelines in future.

[zslane]

Given the time to pull all the other components together, waiting on SP seems fine.  Also, although I'll probably get the whole kit when it's available, I would love to have the option to put these keys on a larger (at least TKL) keyboard.

I know it may disappoint some folks, but the concept behind the set precludes direct support for keyboards with more than 62 keys. Indirect support comes in the form of the SPECIALTY and BLANKS kits. If you can make a larger keyboard work with those, more power to you! 

[zslane]

...it seemed like they have problems with tooling...

I believe it has more to do with the fact that there is only one person at SP responsible for creating new dye-sub setup boards, and he has many other higher priority tasks on his plate. Sure, it would be nice if they could hire someone new and train them to do his job, but you have to realize where SP is located; finding new employees is extremely challenging.

[hoq]

Hi, zslane,

The render picture you put up above was a concept rendor several weeks ago, not the final design. The finall design is attached.


As I PMed you, I'm sorry that for some reason I did copy the idea of Hermes typewriter, and NOW I stopped and cancelled the groupbuy.
SA Vintage Typewriter/ Forgive Her will not happen anymore, I'm so sorry for your inconvinient.

I do not want to annoy you, and I  don't want to break the rules here,
I will pay close attention don't let this happen again.

[Niomosy]

...it seemed like they have problems with tooling...

I believe it has more to do with the fact that there is only one person at SP responsible for creating new dye-sub setup boards, and he has many other higher priority tasks on his plate. Sure, it would be nice if they could hire someone new and train them to do his job, but you have to realize where SP is located; finding new employees is extremely challenging.

I should be able to make a larger board work with the extra kits.  Might pick up a 75% board at some point so this would be pretty nice there as I just need the 60% and a handful of extra caps.

[zslane]

Hi, zslane,

The render picture you put up above was a concept rendor several weeks ago, not the final design. The finall design is attached.

Show Image

As I PMed you, I'm sorry that for some reason I did copy the idea of Hermes typewriter, and NOW I stopped and cancelled the groupbuy.
SA Vintage Typewriter/ Forgive Her will not happen anymore, I'm so sorry for your inconvinient.

I do not want to annoy you, and I  don't want to break the rules here,
I will pay close attention don't let this happen again.

Much appreciated hoq!

[Kavik]

That enter key legend looks rather phallic. 

[SuperVan]

Hi, zslane,

The render picture you put up above was a concept rendor several weeks ago, not the final design. The finall design is attached.

Show Image

As I PMed you, I'm sorry that for some reason I did copy the idea of Hermes typewriter, and NOW I stopped and cancelled the groupbuy.
SA Vintage Typewriter/ Forgive Her will not happen anymore, I'm so sorry for your inconvinient.

I do not want to annoy you, and I  don't want to break the rules here,
I will pay close attention don't let this happen again.

You such a fkin copier! As a Chinese I feel shame for your lies. Back to Xianyu and QQ group, my original designer! You are not belong here.

通过我的 ONEPLUS A3010 上的 Tapatalk发言

[sklin]

Hi, zslane,

The render picture you put up above was a concept rendor several weeks ago, not the final design. The finall design is attached.

Show Image

As I PMed you, I'm sorry that for some reason I did copy the idea of Hermes typewriter, and NOW I stopped and cancelled the groupbuy.
SA Vintage Typewriter/ Forgive Her will not happen anymore, I'm so sorry for your inconvinient.

I do not want to annoy you, and I  don't want to break the rules here,
I will pay close attention don't let this happen again.

You such a fkin copier! As a Chinese I feel shame for your lies. Back to Xianyu and QQ group, my original designer! You are not belong here.

Show Image

通过我的 ONEPLUS A3010 上的 Tapatalk发言

hey, the announcement CLEARLY said that the GB is cancelled. Why are you calling him a lier? Are you blind or what? Is it wrong to express the wish to design a much better SA set??

[SuperVan]

Hi, zslane,

The render picture you put up above was a concept rendor several weeks ago, not the final design. The finall design is attached.

Show Image

As I PMed you, I'm sorry that for some reason I did copy the idea of Hermes typewriter, and NOW I stopped and cancelled the groupbuy.
SA Vintage Typewriter/ Forgive Her will not happen anymore, I'm so sorry for your inconvinient.

I do not want to annoy you, and I  don't want to break the rules here,
I will pay close attention don't let this happen again.

You such a fkin copier! As a Chinese I feel shame for your lies. Back to Xianyu and QQ group, my original designer! You are not belong here.

Show Image

通过我的 ONEPLUS A3010 上的 Tapatalk发言

hey, the announcement CLEARLY said that the GB is cancelled. Why are you calling him a lier? Are you blind or what? Is it wrong to express the wish to design a much better SA set??

He lied to Chinese buyers. It's not the first time he copy other designer's design. Look at my pics. Could you tell me it's original or not?

通过我的 ONEPLUS A3010 上的 Tapatalk发言

[hoq]

Hi Supervan, This planck key set did used the creamy orange color way, if a color way means copying, I believe SP will collapse  some day for that no designer can use the same color , I have explained once in some other thread. I don't want to talk it again with you such a immature coward.


From My iPhone 9.99

[SuperVan]

Hi Supervan, This planck key set did used the creamy orange color way, if a color way means copying, I believe SP will collapse  some day for that no designer can use the same color , I have explained once in some other thread. I don't want to talk it again with you such a immature coward.


From My iPhone 9.99

Why you think it's a good reason for copying? I don't agree with you. I think t0mb3ry also don't agree with you. As a designer you suck so bad. Shameless of you.

通过我的 ONEPLUS A3010 上的 Tapatalk发言

[tialdo]

Damn it! I have the same idea last year, too bad I can't make it happen! Here is my render in Nov, 2016 (Just sharing for fun!). Great work though!!.

[zslane]

That enter key legend looks rather phallic.

Yeah, you're not wrong about that. It is supposed to look like the carriage return arm on the Hermes Rocket, but most folks probably won't get that. I could just leave the Return key blank, I suppose.

[Puddsy]

Nothing we can do about copies.

If you don't like it, don't order it.

No sense in ****ting up the IC thread.

[zslane]

Damn it! I have the same idea last year, too bad I can't make it happen! Here is my render in Nov, 2016 (Just sharing for fun!). Great work though!!.

I'd really like to put the whole subject of copying keycap sets to rest here, if possible. The other GB has been shelved, and I'm not interested in hashing out that thorny issue in this thread. But I do want to make my position on the subject clear, so we can just move on.

I fully acknowledge that colorways can't be "owned", especially since very few of them are truly unique or original. Many folks will come up with the same (or very similar) color schemes independently. I absolutely do not claim any special ownership of the simple idea of a keycap set composed of green keys. In fact, if Rocketeer was just a set of green keys, I wouldn't even bother with it; there's nothing special about that.

What makes the Hermes Rocketeer project special, at least to me, is that its concept is driven by the vintage Hermes Rocket typewriter. The color of the keycaps were specifically chosen to match, as closely as possible, the colors of that typewriter. And, in fact, the MassDrop group buy I am trying to put together is not just a green keycap set, but a complete bundle with 60% keyboard, keycaps (with themed novelty keys, BTW), custom aluminum case designed by other notable community designers, and color-matched cable. I am pretty sure that none of the other proposals for "lovely green keycaps" have made the same effort to deliver anything of this scope.

That's why I take no issue with anyone else putting together a green colorway. None of us can claim "ownership" to the idea of green keycaps, and seeing other people's colorways--even ones similar to my own--is interesting to me, not bothersome. In this particular case, however, I was disappointed that the proposed set was not only an exact color match (for the alphas), but the name and concept was appropriated as well. That's more than just a case of hitting on the same colors by accident.

As for your render, it offers green keycaps but not a full keyboard package tied to a particular concept, and so I wouldn't consider it a copy or even a competitor for the Rocketeer group buy.

(And just for the record, my first render/description for this was posted on Aug-23-2016: https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=25674.msg2246628#msg2246628)

[tialdo]

Damn it! I have the same idea last year, too bad I can't make it happen! Here is my render in Nov, 2016 (Just sharing for fun!). Great work though!!.

I'd really like to put the whole subject of copying keycap sets to rest here, if possible. The other GB has been shelved, and I'm not interested in hashing out that thorny issue in this thread. But I do want to make my position on the subject clear, so we can just move on.

I fully acknowledge that colorways can't be "owned", especially since very few of them are truly unique or original. Many folks will come up with the same (or very similar) color schemes independently. I absolutely do not claim any special ownership of the simple idea of a keycap set composed of green keys. In fact, if Rocketeer was just a set of green keys, I wouldn't even bother with it; there's nothing special about that.

What makes the Hermes Rocketeer project special, at least to me, is that its concept is driven by the vintage Hermes Rocket typewriter. The color of the keycaps were specifically chosen to match, as closely as possible, the colors of that typewriter. And, in fact, the MassDrop group buy I am trying to put together is not just a green keycap set, but a complete bundle with 60% keyboard, keycaps (with themed novelty keys, BTW), custom aluminum case designed by other notable community designers, and color-matched cable. I am pretty sure that none of the other proposals for "lovely green keycaps" have made the same effort to deliver anything of this scope.

That's why I take no issue with anyone else putting together a green colorway. None of us can claim "ownership" to the idea of green keycaps, and seeing other people's colorways--even ones similar to my own--is interesting to me, not bothersome. In this particular case, however, I was disappointed that the proposed set was not only an exact color match (for the alphas), but the name and concept was appropriated as well. That's more than just a case of hitting on the same colors by accident.

As for your render, it offers green keycaps but not a full keyboard package tied to a particular concept, and so I wouldn't consider it a copy or even a competitor for the Rocketeer group buy.

(And just for the record, my first render/description for this was posted on Aug-23-2016: https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=25674.msg2246628#msg2246628)

It would be awesome if your set become real, I'm very interest! (Waiting here for your dasher, teehee.)

[elfick]

If Matt3o's /dev/tty works out, are you going to consider MT3 for Hermes Rocketeer?

[zslane]

Well, that depends on how open folks are to dye-sub over double-shot. The consensus seems to be to wait for double-shot. But if there is a big shift in interest towards MT3 over SA, I'll certainly consider it. Especially since it appears that MassDrop has established a vendor relationship with the manufacturer in China.

However, there are two other open questions that need to be answered:

1. Are the necessary shades of green available?
2. Can they deliver keycaps in semi-gloss finish?

[Owl-]

Personally, prefer the dye sub option, I prefer the slightly softer tones.

MT3 is showing promise, so I think it's an option to have. Matt3o's teal variant set has a close tone to your green, so I believe it's possible to get the wanted shades.