Samwisekoi Design Concept: Expanded Layout 60% Keyboard (65%?)

[samwisekoi]

This topic is closed, replaced by an Interest Check here:  https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=67815.msg1598464#msg1598464

I don't have a name for this yet, as it is just a design concept. Based on my experience with the JD45, I think a 60% keyboard with full programmability, mostly ANSI layout, and a very flexible bottom row would be interesting.  For sure have ANSI and Winkeyless support AND a JIS/split-spacebar many-keys bottom row.

This would be a samwisekoi design, so all through-hole components and a Teensy for easy installation and programmability.

I'll use the JD45 circuitry, so that means full backlighting.  For this board, I am only including MX switch support, but as far as I can tell, that is pretty much what anyone actually builds with.  I have also left ISO Enter key support off, as it add huge complexity.  I may add some additional switch positions to enable no-stabilizer deployment.


65% keyboard concept by samwisekoi 2015.

I can make the PCB the same dimensions as a Poker, and use the same mounting points, so cases would be easy to find.

Anyhow, is anyone besides me interested in this?

TL;DR Anyone interested in a quick-turn run of flexible 60% keyboard PCBs?

Thanks for reading this!

 - Ron | samwisekoi
Sig auto-typed by my GH36 LH keypad.

p.s. Below are some shots from my PCB design program.  The first is the overall PCB layout.  The second is the three official bottom row layouts that all get crammed into the bottom row of the PCB.

[dorkvader]

I'd be down. Might want to include support for split rightshift for people liking to put a fn key on both sides there.

also known as people who cling to their precious HHKBs like gollum does the One Ring.

[nubbinator]

I'd be in, but I'd really like Alps support since its not too tough to add and swill's plate tool will have Alps support. 

[jdcarpe]

I'm in as long as there is support for 1.75-1 at the right shift.

Hahaha, nice DV

[byker]

I'd be down. Might want to include support for split rightshift for people liking to put a fn key on both sides there.

also known as people who cling to their precious HHKBs like gollum does the One Ring.

I would agree with this! I am interested but don't have the funds after buying several keyboards recently.

[samwisekoi]

Like this?


60% hh7 concept layout by samwisekoi 2015

The split shift was easy.  Drop a couple keys from the Winkeyless bottom row and you're golden.

Nubs, it is HUGELY difficult to have both a flexible bottom row AND Alps-compatibility.  Cherry placed the pins to enable this easily by providing horizontal and vertical separation.  Alps pins have almost no vertical separation, so they run into each other when there are multiple positions for a single switch.  On the JD45, some of the switches have four possible positions, and I had to restrict Alps-compatibility as a result.

In this example, I had to drop some Alps pins.  And then I had to make sure there was at least ONE valid Alps bottom row.


MX-Alps pin interference on the JD45

I've committed to Alps-compatibility on the GH-122, but not for this one.

 - Ron | samwisekoi
Sig auto-typed by my GH36 LH keypad.

[jdcarpe]

You don't have to support that 6u spacebar layout of the HHKB. 6u spacebars options are not great, so I prefer the symmetric 7u layout anyway.

[Joey Quinn]

I'd love one of these if it uses an SMT controller, I'm not a huge fan of teensys. If thats possible.

I'd be in, but I'd really like Alps support since its not too tough to add and swill's plate tool will have Alps support. 

+1

[HoffmanMyster]

I plan to support this project.    

I very much like the inclusion of the split right shift.  There are plenty of other buttons in the bottom row to use for fn, but the fn position + arrow keys on the HHKB is so natural that I prefer that position for fn + arrows.

[0100010]

That looks an awful lot like what we wanted to build for a custom 60%-ish Model F ( http://deskthority.net/workshop-f7/ibm-model-f-62-and-f-107-mod-ideas-t9324.html ) :



EDIT : Meaning I like it! 

[AKmalamute]

Having never worked with PCB writing software I don't know how complicated this would be, but: what about two versions? 65-x as you have it here, and 65-a for ALPS support (only).

how many would want an alps-only board? I'd only want one of these, but support for existing cases sounds like a great idea, and if there were two runs, I'd rather have the ALPS one.

As to controllers, I don't trust I could solder on a TQFP package myself. the 323 SMDs make my eyes cross as it is and I only have one pin at a time to worry about. So I'd go in for a board whatever controller was chosen and yes, it would be 'cleaner' to have the 32u4 by itself but I'd want that done by the time it got to me.

Or use a teensy, or a teensy 3.1 to further distinguish it from existing projects like the GH60.

[Oobly]

Why don't you centre the split spacebar in the middle of the hand positions, centre of the letter "B", below the gap between "G" and "H"?

I have found that most people who use their left thumb for space hit under the "V" (from the outer edge of V to the centre of B) and most who use right thumb under the "N" (from the middle of B to the outer edge of N). With the split where you have it, only right thumb spacers will find the placement usable.

Having it centred on the board width only helps if the hand positions are also centred there, but they aren't.

[samwisekoi]

Having never worked with PCB writing software I don't know how complicated this would be, but: what about two versions? 65-x as you have it here, and 65-a for ALPS support (only).

how many would want an alps-only board? I'd only want one of these, but support for existing cases sounds like a great idea, and if there were two runs, I'd rather have the ALPS one.

As to controllers, I don't trust I could solder on a TQFP package myself. the 323 SMDs make my eyes cross as it is and I only have one pin at a time to worry about. So I'd go in for a board whatever controller was chosen and yes, it would be 'cleaner' to have the 32u4 by itself but I'd want that done by the time it got to me.

Or use a teensy, or a teensy 3.1 to further distinguish it from existing projects like the GH60.

OK, I've spent some time working on the fabled Alps version, and I'll offer this compromise:  Alps support YES, but only for a single configuration.  ANSI or Winkeyless plus an optional split Backspace key.  Since I assume Alps-compatible keycaps are hard to find, someone please tell me if ANSI or Winkeyless is the better choice.

For those wanting SMD components, I also can't personally solder them any more.  However, given the density of the PCB, they might have to be on a daughter-board anyhow.  So just think of the Teensy as an SMD daughter-board!

And for software compatibility reasons, I'm sticking with the Teensy 2.0 until I need additional pins -- which will happen with the GH-122/154.

Why don't you centre the split spacebar in the middle of the hand positions, centre of the letter "B", below the gap between "G" and "H"?

I have found that most people who use their left thumb for space hit under the "V" (from the outer edge of V to the centre of B) and most who use right thumb under the "N" (from the middle of B to the outer edge of N). With the split where you have it, only right thumb spacers will find the placement usable.

Having it centred on the board width only helps if the hand positions are also centred there, but they aren't.

Yes, I agree.  There were layout reasons to have all four* space bar positions close to each other, but let me see if I can make a 1.75x position work under the VB - just as on the JD45.

 - Ron | samwisekoi
Sig auto-typed by my GH36 LH keypad.

*This layout supports 6.0, 6.25, 7.0, and split 1.75 unit spacebars.

[ideus]

Is this the same project?

[jdcarpe]

Is this the same project?

That's a non-staggered matrix layout, so nah.

[samwisekoi]

More about Alps...

Here is an example of the problem.  This is the Caps Lock position.  Using Cherry MX switches, I can easily provide both centered and offset locations.  However, if I add the  Alps pins, the center position shorts pin 1 and pin 2.  (The Alps pins for the center position are highlighted in GRAY.)


MX/Alps conflict for 2-position Caps Lock switch.  Samwisekoi 2015.

So for Caps Lock, I am only going to be able to provide the offset position for the Alps switch.  Thus the legend showing A/MX on the left and MX on the right.

Again, I don't know where people find Alps keycaps, but doing some research, I found the Dell AT101, which appears to have an offset Caps Lock key and an ANSI bottom row.  Absent any further input from someone who might actually build a 60% Alps keyboard, I am going to use the Dell AT101 as my guide for Alps-compatibility.

FYI,

 - Ron | samwisekoi
Sig auto-typed by my GH36 LH keypad.

[AKmalamute]

For my own self I had been planning on these ALPS mount rubberdome keycaps, which have short spacebars (split keyboard) and I *think* 1.5x modifiers -- but another up and coming source that hasn't arrived, is Tai Hao is talking about migrating into the ALPS world -- that would be ansi 1.25 like their MX line for sure.

Alternately, again for my own self, I'd be happy to have the bottom row and stabilized keys in MX (not planning on using an plate on this one ... probably) and ALPS everywhere else.

It sounds like the compromises you've come up with are the best choice for the intention. I was hoping four or more people would pipe up to say they wanted an alps-only board, but barring that, there's almost certainly interest in having a dual-compatibility board as you're working on.

[jdcarpe]

What about rotating the Alps by 180 degrees? Or does that make it too convoluted with all the matrix traces running everywhere? Maybe only in the positions where there is a conflict? Just thinking out loud. I really don't have any interest in making new keyboards with Alps switches anymore. At least not until someone makes some standard keycaps for them. We can always hope in Matias.

[nubbinator]

At least not until someone makes some standard keycaps for them. We can always hope in Matias.

Well, we're trying to get some done with SP and I think there was some talk of a Tai Hao set.  We may also see something from KBP for their V60 with Alps.  If that happens, we'll have some options.

I have zero faith in Mathias ever making something standard since they like to do a lot of bizarre stuff that's in line with a lot of Apple's weird design choices in the '90s.  I desperately wanted to get their 60%, then they made all these bizarre key size choices on the bottom row, said it would be either all ABS or split ABS and PBT, and just made weird choices.

Back onto the PCB, if it's too tough to add Alps compatibility, I won't complain if you make it MX only.  I'll still get it, I just have been dying for a 60% Alps for the longest time.

[jacobolus]

Top post picture again for context:


I gotta second Oobly’s recommendation to center the spacebars under the edge between G and H. It’s really silly to have tiny split spacebar not centered (makes one of them, in this case the left one, basically useless).

While you’re at it, I’d recommend making each one somewhere between 1.75 and 2.5u wide. Split 1.5u is just a bit too small to be comfortable to type on for many hand shapes. (Or alternately keep the 1.5u spacebars but add an extra 1u or 1.5u key between the two, and use it for some relatively uncommon function.)

You might want to think about which fingers you’re expecting people to use to press the other bottom row keys. If you want 3 keys on each side to be pressed with the thumb, you might as well make those Alt keys 1u wide, so the further keys are easier to press. Ctrl in the corners and caps lock wasting valuable space is basically the worst thing ever, but IBM turned it into a law apparently, so do what you have to do.

One last bit of advice: either make the keyboard Alps + MX compatible, or make it a flexible layout that supports multiple switch arrangements, but don’t try to do both.

[vivalarevolución]

There's a lot going on in that bottom row.  Probably would provide some great options for FN keys add such.  That's all I have to say about the idea.

[jdcarpe]

Top post picture again for context:

Show Image

I gotta second Oobly�s recommendation to center the spacebars under the edge between G and H. It�s really silly to have tiny split spacebar not centered (makes one of them, in this case the left one, basically useless).

While you�re at it, I�d recommend making each one somewhere between 1.75 and 2.5u wide. Split 1.5u is just a bit too small to be comfortable to type on for many hand shapes. (Or alternately keep the 1.5u spacebars but add an extra 1u or 1.5u key between the two, and use it for some relatively uncommon function.)

You might want to think about which fingers you�re expecting people to use to press the other bottom row keys. If you want 3 keys on each side to be pressed with the thumb, you might as well make those Alt keys 1u wide, so the further keys are easier to press. Ctrl in the corners and caps lock wasting valuable space is basically the worst thing ever, but IBM turned it into a law apparently, so do what you have to do.

One last bit of advice: either make the keyboard Alps + MX compatible, or make it a flexible layout that supports multiple switch arrangements, but don�t try to do both.

I must sit in a weird position or something, because when I press the spacebar, it's always directly below the 'N' key. My left thumb, which I never use to hit the spacebar, would hit it directly below the 'G' key. Although my index fingers rest on the 'F' and 'J' keys, my hands seem to be positioned in the "geographical" center of the 60% keyboard, not in the "hand position" center.

[samwisekoi]

Update:

#1 Alps support is now available for the entire board (including both Caps Lock positions), but only an ANSI bottom row.

#2 PCB-mount stabilizers are in place for a full ANSI build.

#3 The entire board can be built with zero stabilizers.

#4 Thinking ahead to the GH-122/154, I've come up with a bottom row that:

 - Supports normal ANSI, including PCB-mount stabs for 6.25 spacebar and Alps switches.
 - Supports normal Winkeyless with a 7.0 spacebar.
 - Supports an "HH7" layout with a 7.0 spacebar.
 - Supports a "JIS" layout with a 6.0 spacebar.
 - Supports a split spacebar with two 1.75 keys starting with the left edge of the V and extending to the center of the comma.
 - Is ready for expansion to a 70% form factor with an inverted-T in the lower RH corner.

#5 Has now been named the Samwisekoi Designs SD-60.

Attached is a snapshot of the bottom row before I sort out traces and passives.  All positions are labelled with location and widths supported.

 - Ron | samwisekoi
Sig auto-typed by my GH36 LH keypad.