[GB] F104+SSK+122+62+77+50+Ergo orders now open! Kishsaver+Industrial Model F

[digi]

Yo again, not criticizing for how long it's taking. That is totally understandable. I'm criticizing for the lack of clear status information.

I hear ya brosef

[Pete]

The whole process seems pretty interesting. There are so many obsolete/discontinued objects I would love to reverse engineer and bring back into production.

It would be great to see even more videos and/or photos of the process... Did the the factory engineers think you were crazy, Ellipse?

As much as I want this done quickly, it makes sense that it takes a long time, considering the obstacles, as well as time/care in each keyboard. (I'm actually glad I didn't find out about this until recently, or else I'd be impatiently waiting for 2 years.)

It is an amazing and ambitious project! I too am glad I only found out about this relatively recently

The more I read about the process of getting this keyboard manufactured, the more interesting I am finding it. I'm glad someone has the determination and fortitude to get this done.

[Pete]

If anyone creates a book about the new popularity of custom manufactured and community-driven mechanical keyboards, this keyboard had better be one of the main entries.  I would be great to see technical details, lots of pics and diagrams, etc.

[Ellipse]

This is without a doubt, THE most challenging group buy EVER on Geekhack. It's the first time a keyboard has been reverse-engineered that isn't the typical MX custom board. This isn't a keycap set or another aluminum slab & pcb board

well said digi.  The factory is doing the assembly and quality control; I am just doing the last pass of testing and putting orders together before I ship each keyboard.

Justins7 what were you thinking of bringing back?  I don't know what the factory engineers think of me

hashbaz I am positing that the lack of status and timeline information is due to the unexpected complications of re-making parts from the 1980s.  They have been fixing the prototypes for the past couple months and say they expect to be finished next week.  They will update me when they have corrected any remaining issues with the keys/key molds (seems like that's the last major thing we are waiting on before they mail the key samples).  They have been unable to meet a timeframe for retooling and re-making parts as I mentioned. 

Thanks Pete; I hope you join in!

Here are some photos from the factory's recent efforts on the keys.  They even rejected the test PBT color formulation as not matching closely enough to the original samples, even before I said anything!

As a note the space bar and other keys will not all be pebble as they will be the standard two color keys for those who ordered it that way - that is just the test output of the key molds.

[hashbaz]

hashbaz I am positing that the lack of status and timeline information is due to the unexpected complications of re-making parts from the 1980s.  They have been fixing the prototypes for the past couple months and say they expect to be finished next week.  They will update me when they have corrected any remaining issues with the keys/key molds (seems like that's the last major thing we are waiting on before they mail the key samples).  They have been unable to meet a timeframe for retooling and re-making parts as I mentioned. 

Again, I am _not_ complaining about the delays. I am complaining that there is no current big-picture summary in the OP that we can look at to understand what the current status of the buy is. That is lack of communication on your part, and is what I've been trying to get you to do better at for a long time.

Your patience and dedication and technical prowess are fantastic -- I just wish you would keep the OP up to date. <3

[a_ak57]

Man, wish I hadn't actually finally paid attention to this.  I'm a sucker for getting (recreated) pieces of history and I've always wanted to try a Model F, but I've already spent so much money on keyboards/caps this year so it's hard to swallow spending essentially another $400 on something I wouldn't even end up using much if it doesn't override my topre love.  In any case this is a super cool project.

[Ellipse]

The factory needs another week getting the key sample colors right.  They expect to be done by end of next week.  Then they can DHL all the final first run parts to me and we can hopefully start production soon after my testing.

[duface]

The factory needs another week getting the key sample colors right.  They expect to be done by end of next week.  Then they can DHL all the final first run parts to me and we can hopefully start production soon after my testing.

Great news! Are you getting a full set of first run parts? I'd love to see a keyboard put together with the all first run keys, case, etc.

Sent from my ONEPLUS A3000 using Tapatalk

[Ellipse]

Yes I expect to put together brand new prototypes of all 4 models (compact and original case F62/F77) - the original prototypes have been working well for over a year so we are in good shape.

They will be sending the final finished/approved parts from the OP as well including the powdercoated die cast zinc cases made from brand new molds.  The original style cases are made of very high quality zinc and are thus even heavier than the original 4704s! 

[Elrick]

The original style cases are made of very high quality zinc and are thus even heavier than the original 4704s!

I love that particular word here on Geekhack;

"HEAVIER"

Gawd praise that magic word and all those who follow the IBM Model-F phenomenon  .

Although expecting extreme bollocking by the Post Office so have indeed prepared the wallet orifice for some serious damage here.  Not worried really because it's a once in a lifetime receival of something that will never occur again.

Much like a heavy night out in Pattaya, won't be able to sit down for a month when that happens  .

[digi]

The original style cases are made of very high quality zinc and are thus even heavier than the original 4704s!

I love that particular word here on Geekhack;

"HEAVIER"

Gawd praise that magic word and all those who follow the IBM Model-F phenomenon  .

Although expecting extreme bollocking by the Post Office so have indeed prepared the wallet orifice for some serious damage here.  Not worried really because it's a once in a lifetime receival of something that will never occur again.

Much like a heavy night out in Pattaya, won't be able to sit down for a month when that happens  .

LOLL YES!!!!!

[a_ak57]

Well, against my better judgment I'm in for an industrial grey kishsaver.  Figure even if it doesn't dethrone topre I can always make back most of the cost via selling.

[digi]

There are a lot off group buys you can pass on, this isn't one of them.

Don't be left in the dust like Hoff or Halv..

[Elrick]

Well, against my better judgment I'm in for an industrial grey kishsaver.  Figure even if it doesn't dethrone topre I can always make back most of the cost via selling.

Hey there, I'm a Thorpie fanatic and have bought just about every version of Realforce Keyboards here (they are the ONLY justified manufacturer) and I think this Model-F by Ellipse, shall be something truly inspiring.

You can always buy another Thorpie keyboard at any time in the future even that abysmal joke, the HHKB - BUT the Model-F keyboard is a piece of heavenly 'Angel Dust' that shall always be treasured and worshiped by all those who collect and use keyboards across the Globe.

Don't be one of those SAD bastards who thought that it will come around again, because it won't.  You may like to hang around on Flebay and wait for some deranged individual to sell their Ellipse keyboard but it will go for over $1000+.

[esquilax]

Is it just me, or does only running two group buys and closing shop seem like a huge waste?

So much work is going into proving out the accuracy of the different components of the keyboard. Things like the tooling and the formulas for the paint and the specs for the springs embody all that work. The actual manufacturing process is comparatively simple. It seems like those toolings and specifications at least must be worth something to some buyer, or maybe there could be a drop later or something...

[tron]

Is it just me, or does only running two group buys and closing shop seem like a huge waste?

So much work is going into proving out the accuracy of the different components of the keyboard. Things like the tooling and the formulas for the paint and the specs for the springs embody all that work. The actual manufacturing process is comparatively simple. It seems like those toolings and specifications at least must be worth something to some buyer, or maybe there could be a drop later or something...

I agree. I think another group buy in ~ 2 years would be able to generate enough interest to justify another large scale production run. With so much time and money going into the molds and tooling, it's hard to believe they would be discarded after this group buy ends. 

[Kavik]

Is it just me, or does only running two group buys and closing shop seem like a huge waste?

So much work is going into proving out the accuracy of the different components of the keyboard. Things like the tooling and the formulas for the paint and the specs for the springs embody all that work. The actual manufacturing process is comparatively simple. It seems like those toolings and specifications at least must be worth something to some buyer, or maybe there could be a drop later or something...

I agree. I think another group buy in ~ 2 years would be able to generate enough interest to justify another large scale production run. With so much time and money going into the molds and tooling, it's hard to believe they would be discarded after this group buy ends.

I know absolutely nothing about manufacturing, but I think Ellipse once said that some of the tooling/molds wear out with use. However, I can't imagine that they would wear out with such a small production run, and information like the measurements and paint mixture recipes would certainly be reusable. That said, I bet it would cost a bit to store the tooling and molds until another run if there isn't enough demand to keep these keyboards in constant production. I'm completely ignorant of the industry and process, so maybe that doesn't make sense.

[Elrick]

I know absolutely nothing about manufacturing, but I think Ellipse once said that some of the tooling/molds wear out with use. However, I can't imagine that they would wear out with such a small production run, and information like the measurements and paint mixture recipes would certainly be reusable. That said, I bet it would cost a bit to store the tooling and molds until another run if there isn't enough demand to keep these keyboards in constant production. I'm completely ignorant of the industry and process, so maybe that doesn't make sense.

In China they can manufacture ANYTHING at this point in time.  Making this Keyboard is difficult due to past tolerances achieved with the technology that was available back then.  BUT making a keyboard now that feels like the previous Model-F is not an easy task.

Ellipse still sticks to his guns regarding tight tolerances which the Chinese tend to ignore so most of the time is wasted in achieving his dimensions and of course trying it out.  That is what it's like when creating anything, you make an experiment in trying it out,  if it fails you make another until the PERFECT specimen is achieved and applied.  When the keyboard is put together, the most difficult keyboard to build compared to all the lazy/easy PCB tech, separate switches, currently used everywhere.

Unlike here in the West where most molds are stored, in China all molds are recycled again to make new molds for future projects.  In China space is valuable and suddenly to start storing multiple molds on the side line not making any money for the owner of the factory, doesn't compute.  They will re-use the molds either by breaking them apart and welding other pieces together or simply melting them all down for a completely new pour, for another design.

That is why in China you can't find any OLD molds anywhere because the metal in them is so valuable for recycling.  So all those here who think there will be another Model-F manufacture 2 or 5 years from now, can keep on dreaming about that because by the time you save up or hold onto that fantasy of yours, all you would of achieved is in joining the long que of absolute LOSERS, as they all start crying in unison that NO one told me about this.

But rest assured, that someone did tell you here on Geekhack, so you can go quietly to your graves missing out on owning this once in a Life-time keyboard, due to your own ignorance and stupidity.

[digi]

I know absolutely nothing about manufacturing, but I think Ellipse once said that some of the tooling/molds wear out with use. However, I can't imagine that they would wear out with such a small production run, and information like the measurements and paint mixture recipes would certainly be reusable. That said, I bet it would cost a bit to store the tooling and molds until another run if there isn't enough demand to keep these keyboards in constant production. I'm completely ignorant of the industry and process, so maybe that doesn't make sense.

In China they can manufacture ANYTHING at this point in time.  Making this Keyboard is difficult due to past tolerances achieved with the technology that was available back then.  BUT making a keyboard now that feels like the previous Model-F is not an easy task.

Ellipse still sticks to his guns regarding tight tolerances which the Chinese tend to ignore so most of the time is wasted in achieving his dimensions and of course trying it out.  That is what it's like when creating anything, you make an experiment in trying it out,  if it fails you make another until the PERFECT specimen is achieved and applied.  When the keyboard is put together, the most difficult keyboard to build compared to all the lazy/easy PCB tech, separate switches, currently used everywhere.

Unlike here in the West where most molds are stored, in China all molds are recycled again to make new molds for future projects.  In China space is valuable and suddenly to start storing multiple molds on the side line not making any money for the owner of the factory, doesn't compute.  They will re-use the molds either by breaking them apart and welding other pieces together or simply melting them all down for a completely new pour, for another design.

That is why in China you can't find any OLD molds anywhere because the metal in them is so valuable for recycling.  So all those here who think there will be another Model-F manufacture 2 or 5 years from now, can keep on dreaming about that because by the time you save up or hold onto that fantasy of yours, all you would of achieved is in joining the long que of absolute LOSERS, as they all start crying in unison that NO one told me about this.

But rest assured, that someone did tell you here on Geekhack, so you can go quietly to your graves missing out on owning this once in a Life-time keyboard, due to your own ignorance and stupidity.

10/10

[3K]

I know absolutely nothing about manufacturing, but I think Ellipse once said that some of the tooling/molds wear out with use. However, I can't imagine that they would wear out with such a small production run, and information like the measurements and paint mixture recipes would certainly be reusable. That said, I bet it would cost a bit to store the tooling and molds until another run if there isn't enough demand to keep these keyboards in constant production. I'm completely ignorant of the industry and process, so maybe that doesn't make sense.

In China they can manufacture ANYTHING at this point in time.  Making this Keyboard is difficult due to past tolerances achieved with the technology that was available back then.  BUT making a keyboard now that feels like the previous Model-F is not an easy task.

Ellipse still sticks to his guns regarding tight tolerances which the Chinese tend to ignore so most of the time is wasted in achieving his dimensions and of course trying it out.  That is what it's like when creating anything, you make an experiment in trying it out,  if it fails you make another until the PERFECT specimen is achieved and applied.  When the keyboard is put together, the most difficult keyboard to build compared to all the lazy/easy PCB tech, separate switches, currently used everywhere.

Unlike here in the West where most molds are stored, in China all molds are recycled again to make new molds for future projects.  In China space is valuable and suddenly to start storing multiple molds on the side line not making any money for the owner of the factory, doesn't compute.  They will re-use the molds either by breaking them apart and welding other pieces together or simply melting them all down for a completely new pour, for another design.

That is why in China you can't find any OLD molds anywhere because the metal in them is so valuable for recycling.  So all those here who think there will be another Model-F manufacture 2 or 5 years from now, can keep on dreaming about that because by the time you save up or hold onto that fantasy of yours, all you would of achieved is in joining the long que of absolute LOSERS, as they all start crying in unison that NO one told me about this.

But rest assured, that someone did tell you here on Geekhack, so you can go quietly to your graves missing out on owning this once in a Life-time keyboard, due to your own ignorance and stupidity.

That's new to me, really interesting.
Makes me imaging quite some scenarios...

Hey, when will the next production round start?

Hello, yes sorry, but never. We needed molds to build pink toy phallus.

[gaunt]

I read through most of this thread and a bunch of blog posts but I didn't see it mentioned anywhere: is the early bird round over? I ordered a few days ago (still waiting on the payment details) and I'm curious if I'm part of round 1 or 2.

EDIT: Thought of something else as well. I ordered the F77 with printed caps and the arrow/insert etc cluster on the right. Will an Esc key be included? I'd like to exchange Scroll Lock (never found a use for this key) with Esc.

[Ellipse]

Yes I am still taking early bird orders gaunt, and yes you'll get the full key cap set (103 key).

[gaunt]

Yes I am still taking early bird orders gaunt, and yes you'll get the full key cap set (103 key).

That's great news

[supamesican]

I just realized I forgot to order an extra set of stabilizers, so my first aid kit will be complete. I got the hhkb layout so would I need the horizontal ones or the vertical ones? I think it should be horizontal but I want to be sure.

[Ellipse]

Yep horizontal ones are the only ones used on an F62/F77 unless you use the international/ISO enter.

[gaunt]

One last thing, and I hope it's alright to post this in the thread instead of via PMs. I see in most of your samples, the regular F77 has a dark beige case, while the F62 has a white case. However, you also display a F77 with a white case (third keyboard image here: https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/questions/question/please-post-photos-of-the-various-keys-options/). Is this a non-standard colour option that will cost an extra 100$, or cheaper/free since it's already used as standard for the F62? I think I'd prefer a white case for my F77, though it's not a huge deal.

[Ellipse]

Yes gaunt regarding the original style die cast cases:

The black, off-white/beige, and Industrial Gray colors are all at no extra charge.

The extra charge colors ($75 extra) are True Red, Silver Gray, and someone just ordered a new color, International Orange (Aerospace Version) which should look great - it is the color used for some NASA space suits. 

To get a color of your own costs about $400 to $500. 

No custom color offerings are currently available for the compact cases - just black and standard gray hard anodized.

[gaunt]

Yes gaunt regarding the original style die cast cases:

The black, off-white/beige, and Industrial Gray colors are all at no extra charge.

The extra charge colors ($75 extra) are True Red, Silver Gray, and someone just ordered a new color, International Orange (Aerospace Version) which should look great - it is the color used for some NASA space suits. 

To get a color of your own costs about $400 to $500. 

No custom color offerings are currently available for the compact cases - just black and standard gray hard anodized.

I think I'm having a 'D'oh!' moment. What I called dark beige (seen here https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/product/f77-model-f-keyboard/) is really 'industrial gray' while 'off-white/beige' is the normal white/cream colour, isn't it? If that's the case then everything is peachy, as that's what I already ordered

[Ellipse]

Yep that is right

[Ellipse]

We have a new premium color offering!  Anyone else interested in International Orange (Aerospace) for your original style powdercoated case?  Someone plans on ordering it for the final round (it would delay any early bird orders unless you'd want it as a spare case with separate shipping).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_orange

[pixelpusher]

We have a new premium color offering!  Anyone else interested in International Orange (Aerospace) for your original style powdercoated case?  Someone plans on ordering it for the final round (it would delay any early bird orders unless you'd want it as a spare case with separate shipping).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_orange

What is the cost to upgrade to this color?

[Ellipse]

$75, same as for the other premium color upgrades

[supamesican]

Yep horizontal ones are the only ones used on an F62/F77 unless you use the international/ISO enter.

Awesome, got them ordered.

[Kavik]

True red and international orange both look really awesome, but I think I'll like the more traditional industrial and black colors I ordered more in the long run. I hope enough people order them that I eventually get to see some cool pictures at least. 

[dante]

Ellipse, I was just at a vintage computer show this weekend and while I wasn't interested in this project before I may be now.

My biggest issue with buying in isn't the delays but the fact that nobody (as far as I know) has seen any of the prototypes.  I know you are quite proud to have been featured in at least a couple articles as well as passing on information such as "We are now up to $xxx,xxx in sales!" but someone credible really needs to see the prototypes at this point in time.

In fact for someone with the financial resources that you must possess - given that no fundraiser was used - I'm very surprised you haven't attended one of the keyboard shows to show off the prototypes.

[Ellipse]

dante I was trying to put together a meetup in Manhattan but there was little to no interest.  That offer is still open.  I should be getting the finalized first-run parts in a couple weeks if anyone's interested.

In the mean time I posted videos with teardowns and typing tests so you can see and hear the keyboards in operation (these were posted last year and earlier this year).  https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsi-1PcnCT3hw_RwcFzBnuw

If anyone knows of any upcoming Manhattan tech meetups where it would be appropriate, please let me know.  Maybe I can get out to the San Fran area in the coming months as well?

[iamtootallforthis]

dante I was trying to put together a meetup in Manhattan but there was little to no interest.  That offer is still open.  I should be getting the finalized first-run parts in a couple weeks if anyone's interested.

In the mean time I posted videos with teardowns and typing tests so you can see and hear the keyboards in operation (these were posted last year and earlier this year).  https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsi-1PcnCT3hw_RwcFzBnuw

If anyone knows of any upcoming Manhattan tech meetups where it would be appropriate, please let me know.  Maybe I can get out to the San Fran area in the coming months as well?

There is a keycon meetup in June in Philly. It would be great to see the boards there as there will be a lot of people attending. Details can be found here https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=87017.0

[Ellipse]

How many people usually attend those meetups?  If some of the attendees are part of the project then I'd think of going.

The factory is still finalizing the keys and putting on the powdercoating for the top inner assembly plates.  They are fine-tuning the key molds to make sure the keys are made to spec.

Here are some photos of the machines that bend the PCBs (IBM used to bend the Model F PCBs).  The secret is to heat the PCBs gently and evenly first (see the first two photos of the heater) and then force a bend of the board to the radius I specified to the factory.  These machines and tooling were not cheap!

[iamtootallforthis]

I can't speak for anyone but myself, but getting to see the proto boards would certainly convince me to join as I've been waiting for reviews before ordering.

[smt]

I'll be going, and I've got a F77 order already placed (although it's very close to the end of the queue).

It would be great to experience the prototypes in person, two months from now.

[user 18]

I have also been waiting to hear from reviewers before ordering, unfortunately I won't be able to attend keycon myself.

[Ellipse]

Low stock notice on premium original style case colors:  If you are looking for a True Red Pantone 19-1664 or Silver Gray Pantone 14-5002 TPX Silver case please order one soon!  I am almost completely out of the custom original style powdercoated case colors - more will not be made in the final round so that will be it for the project.  First come, first served with the cases.  A custom color is $75 extra.  You can order a case separately if you'd like to add on to your order or just order the case for now and order your keyboard later.

Low stock notice on Compact Case early bird round keyboards: we are down to the last 4 compact F77 and the last 11 compact F62 keyboards.  Knowing rate they have been ordered, I recommend ordering one in the coming weeks if you want to be a part of the early bird round.

Also an interesting note and request:  The first few months' of orders had a greater proportion of black powdercoated case orders and F62 original case orders compared to all orders since then (more other colors and F77 orders proportionately).  This means for the early bird round I am unexpectedly likely to run out of Industrial Gray/Off-White Beige original case F77s before I run out of the others.  If anyone wants to change their case from another color to black or from F77 to F62 please let me know   This way we can keep the early round open a little longer "while supplies last."

HHKB style vs. regular style right shift:  the breakdown so far is 60% in favor of HHKB style split right shift on the F62s and 40% in favor of HHKB style split right shift on the F77s.

[NathanA]

Any chance you can post a side-by-side of Industrial Gray vs. Silver Gray?

Also, do you have any pictures of the anodized compact cases yet?  Really curious to see the black.

[Ellipse]

Yes here are photos of all the cases: https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/5m6010/photos_working_compact_case_f62f77_keyboard/

See photos 1, 4, 5, and 6 for the black and regular gray hard anodized cases - just the bottom pieces from the photos are hard anodized - the keyboards from the photos were not yet anodized.

[Pete]

... If you are looking for a True Red, Pantone 19-1664 or Silver Gray Pantone 14-5002 TPX Silver case ...

Maybe its the comma between True Red and Pantone 19-1664, but is that the same colour?

[Pete]

Here are some photos of the machines that bend the PCBs (IBM used to bend the Model F PCBs).  The secret is to heat the PCBs gently and evenly first (see the first two photos of the heater) and then force a bend of the board to the radius I specified to the factory. 
...

Wow, I never realized the PCBs had to be bent. I hope they get the bend to within the necessary tolerances without any issues.

(BTW: I have a KB on order.)

[Ellipse]

Pete - comma removed and yes I will not be accepting out of tolerance parts.

[Elrick]

Pete - comma removed and yes I will not be accepting out of tolerance parts.

There you go people, our Ellipse is a PERFECTIONIST.
 

[Ellipse]

The factory is still working on adjusting the key molds.  In the mean time, all the other first run parts appear to be finished!  I am expecting them to ship everything out except the keys in the coming days.

When these first-run parts arrive I will examine each part and if it is all good, production will start on the remaining parts!  (Top/bottom inner assemblies, springs, hard anodized compact cases, keys, boxes, and inner/outside foam).

The factory expects production and assembly to take 2-3 months, and then these will all ship from China to me for final testing and shipping (generally) in sequence of when you placed your order.

Here are the first run compact cases - please note that these colors are not accurate and are not representative of what anyone will get:


Here is the new batch of finished springs:

[3K]

The cases look really nice!
But am I wrong or were the cases supposed to be with a shiny finish? Like ... not dull, like the original case. Or will this finish be added in the later run?