Scratch Build mini

[chimera15]

With the demise of the mini-guru going retail, and it seeming like the kbc board will have some funky layout that I'm not so happy about, I decided I'd finally try to build a board from scratch.  I bought a teensy++ a long time ago to try to make a keyboard out of an typewriter, but that project failed since it was impossible to mount the switches.   Anyway, I really want to try to make a board that I could resell, perhaps as just a kit, and as a hobby.  I don't want to put a lot of time into constructing them however, as I was a sculptor for a number of years and I know how time consuming it can be to try to make stuff.  The ideal will to be available to anyone who wants it in a kit form with instructions.  

  I asked Lowpoly if he would sell his keyboard like this as well, so hopefully he'll agree to that, in addition to this.  

My board will will have this layout, since I came up with it I really want to try to build it:



The first task I'm going to set for myself is to play around with the teensy++, and see if I can get it to recognize key presses, then work out a matrix for it.  If anyone knows of simple instructions to program the teensy++ I could use some links.

[chimera15]

Like 63 keys it looks like, so that won't kill my wallet for mx blues hopefully, assuming I can get by the programming/pcb/plate making.

[chimera15]

I bought a new scorpius m10 to harvest the switches from.  $60 for 105 blue mx's, I think is the best deal I've found, and it may provide other valuable parts for this as well, for instance a plate.





Looking at the comparison, the plate won't match on the bottom, so going to have to somehow fabricate a new plate, which is probably going to be the hardest part.

[chimera15]

Anyone know of a way to make a die/press just the size of one hole in a metal plate?  Is there something ready made like that that doesn't cost $500 or something?  How are plates like that made? They're stamped out with a die?

[chimera15]

Hmm, I wonder.....


http://www.mcnichols.com/ecommerce/eos/stocklist?navCode=cc:square

That might actually work, except for the right hand shift/del/return which would not fit a grid pattern.... hmm

It looks like those plates are all over $100 which doesn't bode well. I don't know what size they are.


http://www.ehow.com/how_5759768_punch-square-holes-steel-strips.html

If I could get a die, maybe I could use my truck and a jack to apply the force required. lol

[Hydron]

You could always get holes laser cut or done with a CNC punch machine. Per unit cost isn't too bad, but setup could be expensive though. We get front/rear panels of equipment enclosures done like that for work.

[chimera15]

Where?

[TheSoulhunter]

- Dremel + some patience
- Drill + small files + even more patience
- A friend with access to a waterjet or similar

[lowpoly]

If you just want to modify an existing plate a Dremel may do.

If you want to punch a lot of holes into sheet metal yourself you might consider a spindle press:

example on ebay Germany

No idea what they go for used. You have to make a two part tool for this. A stamp (?) the size of the hole and slightly larger hole below this. I think the tool needs to be hardened.

Or have it done at emachineshop.com, their software is made for 2D construction. And you have full choice of materials.

[chimera15]

In the Tube Amp world you use Greenlee punches.

Unfortunately the non-round ones are limited in styles.

Show Image

Plus, once again, we are talking .01" precision here or the keys start looking odd.  Hard to do that with a punch.

I'd just go with straight PCB mount if I were you.  That looks pretty simple since you're just drilling a line of straight holes.  Set up a jig on a drill press and you're good to go.

Yup, without a plate though, even if you drill the holes correctly, they'll still be out of place, especially if I end up using alps switches.  I really like the idea of being able to use either switch.  I used this method in sections of my minitouch pcb, and it was really tough to make them look even.  With cherrys of course you have those extra registration marks, so it might be a little more possible, but still really tough.

[chimera15]

Total props and credit to DMW who helped me through the build and upload of firmware onto my teensy yesterday.  I've never been able to build an open source project before, and never woulda been able to do it without his help. He's like a total genius. lol

[chimera15]

Finished wiring the test board which I was able to cobble together from a bunch of spare alps switches.  This will test to see if I can actually type with the teensy programing.    Now I just have to define the keyset.  I'll probably add more keys under the board to take the place of the missing keys in this layout.  Most of it's correct except for the 4th and 5th row.   Credit again to DMW who's walking me through creating the matrix.  The great thing about using the teensy is that it has so many wiring points that you can use separate pins for each column to define the matrix, so you don't have to do any funky double keys and such.  I was able to take a single length of wire and heat up the insulation and then solder the raw wire directly to the switch in a straight shot.  Makes for a neat looking and fast way to solder a matrix.  It should make for a simple pcb as well.


I have a blank pcb coming from ebay.  A seller was able to cut a custom 10.5 x 4 inch pcb for me.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=320551777584&ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT




Assuming I can get this going, all I need is a plate made for cherry mx's and I'll have a working keyboard.  Then all I need is a case, and some caps.

[didjamatic]

WOW.  That is seriously awesome.  Keep posting updates!

[chimera15]

If you just want to modify an existing plate a Dremel may do.

If you want to punch a lot of holes into sheet metal yourself you might consider a spindle press:

example on ebay Germany

No idea what they go for used. You have to make a two part tool for this. A stamp (?) the size of the hole and slightly larger hole below this. I think the tool needs to be hardened.

Or have it done at [URL=http://www.emachineshop.com]emachineshop.com, their software is made for 2D construction. And you have full choice of materials.

[/URL]

Would this work?

Pretty cheap?  What die would work with it?

http://cgi.ebay.com/Wilesco-M93-Friction-Driven-Spindle-Press-Accessory-/370296912943?cmd=ViewItem&pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item56376a7c2f

hmm, looks like there isn't enough room to run a plate through it though....?

[didjamatic]

You'd need dies and a steel frame rather than wood, but you can get tremendous force out of a simple bottle jack press.
DIY...


Harbor Freight 6 ton press $64

[lowpoly]

[/URL]

Would this work?

Pretty cheap?  What die would work with it?

http://cgi.ebay.com/Wilesco-M93-Friction-Driven-Spindle-Press-Accessory-/370296912943?cmd=ViewItem&pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item56376a7c2f

hmm, looks like there isn't enough room to run a plate through it though....?

Wilesco is a german toy steam engine company.

You should be able to drive it from your steampunk 'board. :-)

To punch holes with a spindle press you also need the custom made tool I already mentioned. A 'male' tool which is just a block with a cross section the same size as the hole. And a 'female' part like 3x3" and 2" high with a hole in the middle. I'm just estimating, size depends on the press, IIRC.

My father had to file such a thing as a toolmaker apprentice. To add difficulty, they took the first part away after it was finished. So, with the second part he couldn't try. His was the only one that fit.

[Findecanor]

Looking at the comparison, the plate won't match on the bottom, so going to have to somehow fabricate a new plate, which is probably going to be the hardest part.

How about cutting the plate apart and welding some of it together again?

On the other hand, would it be really wrong to have empty space in-between two switches in a rectangular hole on a plate?

[dfj]

My father had to file such a thing as a toolmaker apprentice. To add difficulty, they took the first part away after it was finished. So, with the second part he couldn't try. His was the only one that fit.

I wish they made our current batch of apprentices do this. During my last journey to a college-level machine-room (last year) I could not help but notice that a fresh hole in a plate-glass window bore an uncanny resemblance to a chuck-key for one of the many lathes installed across the area. Apparently, they did 2 days of flat filing and 3 days of listening to the instructor read them a photocopy of some safety regulations. After that, they were off to play with the machines. yay.

Just out of curiousity, how close do you expect one might one want the male and female die to fit: loose, sliding, tight, friction, press, interference (heh)? I Think 'friction' is about a half thou on a part close to an inch or 0.010-0.015mm on an ~20mm hole?

dfj

[lowpoly]

Should be loose to sliding, depending on the play of the spindle press. But it has been 25 years since I worked with one.

[chimera15]

DMW is a total God.  His driver is 100% working with my teensy++ 1.0.  I'm typing this on my test board.  I now have a fully programmable keyboard thanks to him!! lol   Totally wicked awesomeness.
I forgot I still need to test the function keys and see if I have that correct.  But it's working perfectly on the top layer currently.


Hopefully I'll get the scorpius m10 and I can pull the switches later today.  Now I really need to see about getting a plate made, or making one.


I contacted Signature Plastics about caps on Friday night, so hopefully they'll answer me today as well.

Thinking forward about possibly packaging this board in a kit for people. Using DMW's humblehacker driver offers a lot of options for the configuration of this board, using the teensy as the final chip.  It might even allow for instance people to request certain layouts they want within the structure of the final parts.  For instance if you don't want to compile the driver yourself you could request that I program the chip to have the control in place of the capslock.  For others who are familiar or want to compile or maybe he'll have a pre-compiled version now, they would be able to change the layout themselves if they don't like it.  His driver is really the bomb. lol

This test board even as it stands is probably the sickest board I own. The matrix is so simple to rewire for the hardware I can pop in any switch.  It's pretty awesome.

Tested up to 111 wpm now. lol

[lowpoly]

If you want to punch a lot of holes into sheet metal yourself you might consider a spindle press:

example on ebay Germany

It went for EUR 1,50. Listed as "almost new". Buying an old press is probably the cheapest option.

Teensy is great. I have some here and look forward to put one into my Apple M0110 for a start.

Also, with the hand-wired approach you can use diodes instead of wire for the rows (or columns). Instant 6KRO.

[chimera15]

It went for EUR 1,50. Listed as "almost new". Buying an old press is probably the cheapest option.

Teensy is great. I have some here and look forward to put one into my Apple M0110 for a start.

Also, with the hand-wired approach you can use diodes instead of wire for the rows (or columns). Instant 6KRO.

You bought that spindle press??? lol nice deal wow. Wish I could find a deal like that.  The problem using that method though is it looks like the dies could cost almost as much or more than the press from what I could find?

[chimera15]

I built a little box for it out of foam core, so I could play around with typing on it.  I really like the flat padded thumbrest, it's really comfortable. I might try to include something like that in a final case design.

[lowpoly]

You bought that spindle press??? lol nice deal wow. Wish I could find a deal like that.  The problem using that method though is it looks like the dies could cost almost as much or more than the press from what I could find?

No, I didn't buy it, just watched the auction to see what they can go for.

You can do the dies yourself, you'd just need the material and some files.

[chimera15]

Hmm, what material? Something hard huh? I just talked with Mchnichols:

http://www.mcnichols.com/ecommerce/eos/stocklist?navCode=cc:square&navCode=avc:aluminum

Even though they sell huge plates of pre punched materials like this, for around $100, they said it would be in the thousands of dollars to make a custom plate 11x4".

It looks like I'm going to have to come up with a home made solution of some sort.

It's interesting that they didn't have the tooling to do rectangular holes at all.  I hadn't noticed before, but alps are rectangular, and cherrys are square.  It could make cherry tooling much easier to find/make than alps.  Ideally I'd love to make plates for each switch type, but it looks like it's going to be really difficult one way or the other to make a plate for a reasonable amount.  I don't see a bloody metal plate being the the most expensive part of this board as a realistic thing.

I'm going to work up a drawing once I get the new scorpius and can tear it completely apart and really study the plate with calipers.

[dmw]

I don't see a bloody metal plate being the the most expensive part of this board as a realistic thing..

This was my experience as well when I was researching how to build a plate for my keyboard.  One possibility is to find a place like Tech Shop near you.  They have all the equipment.  You can learn and do it yourself!  I've been wanting to try this place for a while.

[chimera15]

This was my experience as well when I was researching how to build a plate for my keyboard.  One possibility is to find a place like Tech Shop near you.  They have all the equipment.  You can learn and do it yourself!  I've been wanting to try this place for a while.

My mother just sent me this link.  

http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/archive/index.php/t-92.html

I haven't finished reading through it.  I'm going to go to lowes and see if they have anything at all, they should have some sheet metal at least I can practice different things with.

Interesting there actually is one of those tech shops in north carolina.  Might take a few hours to get to it, but if it saves me $ it might be worth it.

[lowpoly]

Hmm, what material? Something hard huh? I just talked with Mchnichols:

http://www.mcnichols.com/ecommerce/eos/stocklist?navCode=cc:square&navCode=avc:aluminum

Even though they sell huge plates of pre punched materials like this, for around $100, they said it would be in the thousands of dollars to make a custom plate 11x4".

The custom plate would be so expensive because they probably need a tool to punch all the holes at once. Which would be kind of complex.

For a DIY solution using a spindle press it could look like this for ex.:



Has to be made from a steel that can be hardened.

[chimera15]

So I went to Lowe's.  I found a sheet of aluminum there the same thickness as the steel plate from an alps board for $10. Pretty expensive for a raw sheet of metal. Now all I have to do is to figure out how to punch holes in it, and round the edges.   The steel plates were either too thick, or too thin.  I think the aluminum sheet should be super relatively easy to punch holes in than steel.  

The custom plate would be so expensive because they probably need a tool to punch all the holes at once. Which would be kind of complex.

For a DIY solution using a spindle press it could look like this for ex.:

Show Image

Has to be made from a steel that can be hardened.

So basically you're saying I need two square hardened steel cubes, that I can't get in the first place. lol   I actually have a lot of chisels from stone sculpting that could probably be diamond sharpened into the square shape, but no idea where I'd get the part with the hole in it.

So assuming I do each hole by hand, and can actually line them up precisely, it's 63 or 64 holes.  That means if each one takes me a minute to line up and punch it'll take me an hour to do each metal plate, that's pretty sucky.

What acid eats aluminum? lol


http://www.scifun.org/CHEMWEEK/Aluminum/ALUMINUM.html

"Therefore, aluminum will dissolve in hydrochloric acid  and sodium hydroxide solutions."

roflol That might be a way, but the holes might not be precise enough....

Hydrocloric acid is fairly common isn't it?  

 Oh right it's in our stomachs.  


"With major production starting in the Industrial Revolution, hydrochloric acid is used in the chemical industry as a chemical reagent in the large-scale production of vinyl chloride for PVC plastic, and MDI/TDI for polyurethane. It has numerous smaller-scale applications, including household cleaning, production of gelatin and other food additives, descaling, and leather processing. About 20 million metric tons of hydrochloric acid are produced annually."



Oh darn it's a controlled substance since people use it to produce Meth and junk...darnit.


Durham, NC is 3 hours away from me, that actually might be an option.  Do they have day memberships? lol


http://www.icctool.com/webdoc20.html

http://cgi.ebay.com/SQUARE-STAR-DECORATIVE-JEWELRY-STAMP-PRESS-DIE-SET-TOOL-/360258218813?cmd=ViewItem&pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item53e1102b3d

[chimera15]

This is what Scott from Techshop wrote me back when I explained what I was looking for:

Sounds like a real possibility:

Hi Phil,

Sounds like a good job for the ShopBot computer controlled router or the CNC milling machine.  Either might work depending on the thickness and material of the metal plate.  Aluminum would be better to work with.

We would make it for you or teach you to use the machines and while I cannot guarantee anything without seeing actual drawings, I can't imagine it would ever cost thousands.  Hundreds maybe yes, but thousands sounds too high to me for one keyboard sized plate.

Let me know how you want to proceed.

Thanks,

Scott

[dmw]

A machine shop I talked to a few years ago quoted me $250 for a backplate for my HumbleHacker keyboard.  I opted instead to have the case done in plastic by Shapeways for about the same amount.  It's working pretty well. I plan to hand cut a steel bottom plate, to add weight and a bit more rigidity.

[chimera15]

Yeah it's pretty insane for just a metal plate. It really doubly makes me wonder how ione can do it for $60, they must be taking a loss selling at that price, no matter how you look at it.

[itlnstln]

Consider that they have their own machinery and buy steel in bulk (probably lower-grade steel at that).  Efficiencies in scale can dramatically affect price.

[chimera15]

I asked Scott, but I don't know if he's going to be willing to help me since I haven't bought a membership yet.  lol  Anyone know how to produce a drawing for a cnc machine to operate on?  I might as well just make a drawing that will work directly with cnc if I need to, instead of wasting my time getting everything right in a raster program or something.

[chimera15]

This is interesting:

http://www.omwcorp.com/partdesign.html

I like that one part that has cut away corners.  I wonder if that would work with alps or cherries, I think it would?  That would possibly save a lot of money according to that article.  How important are square corners for holding switches, I think not very?

[lowpoly]

So basically you're saying I need two square hardened steel cubes, that I can't get in the first place. lol   I actually have a lot of chisels from stone sculpting that could probably be diamond sharpened into the square shape, but no idea where I'd get the part with the hole in it.

I said it would be the cheapest method, not the fastest. :-)

Punching the holes is much quicker, couple of seconds. You also need some time to draw or print the holes on the metal sheet. And find some kind of alignment for each row. After that it's just move, aim/test, punch.

The material for the tools - most metal shops should have that.

But it doesn't look like it's the best solution here. Did you try emachineshop? The software can give you an immediate quote, I think.

[lowpoly]

I'm not an expert here but I would think you need sharpened edges for a clean punch.  Even a Greenlee isn't cheap and they make thousands of the suckers.

When I used a spindle press back then, the tools were not sharpened. But the parts were probably a bit smaller.

[TheSoulhunter]

I'm still for the drill + dremel + files solution!
I think it's doable in like 3-5 hours...

[itlnstln]

I think it's doable in like 3-5 hours...

Ouch.  The only things I like to do for that amount of time is disc golf and sex.

[chimera15]

Just got the scorpius.  Proceeding to disassemble.  It's all coming together today. lol

Melissa from Signature plastics wrote me.  I wrote back and showed her my preliminary layout and asked if it'd be possible to do for under $100.  She hasn't written me back yet. roflol

Are there other cap makers like Signature Plastics if they tell me to go pack it, or just ignore me? lol

[TheSoulhunter]

Ouch.  The only things I like to do for that amount of time is disc golf and sex.

Well, I do stuff like this 7h per day, 5-6 days per week, for a living!

The drill, mill, file thing...
Not the disc golf and sex, unfortunately

[itlnstln]

It's one thing when you're getting paid for it.

[chimera15]

Still no word from SP.

Bag o blue cherries:



This may be why ione and scorpius m10's get such bad reputations, the pcb wire is missing, and solder is used to fill the gap, just waiting to fail:



On a brand new board.


It's a real shame I can't use this plate.  The plate is perfect except for the right shift, which is in precisely the wrong place for me to put a shrunken right shift and another arrow key.  If it wasn't for that one bad section I could cut down the plate and use it as is.  The only difference in the layout would be that the capslock would become burried, and I'd go with the control in the proper place, alt in the lower left, and the 2 function keys, and then I'd move the \| key up above the enter and keep the enter key non l shaped.



All in all as I've desoldered probably 20 alps boards, this was much easier.  No bent pins to worry about, and there was a lot of gap between the board and the pin of the cherry, so the instant the desolderer hit the pin it was pretty free.  That's why they used so much solder, because there's such a huge gap for the pins.

[TheSoulhunter]

True, and my view on it is probably very biased for mentioned reason...
Just wanted to point out that he could be already done, considering how long it seems to take finding a different method! :/

[chimera15]

True, and my view on it is probably very biased for mentioned reason...
Just wanted to point out that he could be already done, considering how long it seems to take finding a different method! :/

I want to be able to produce these en masse, so that anyone interested can buy them in kit form. The idea is to keep my workload down because I'm also trying to finish college.  I also want to circumvent the process of trying to get a loan/backer that apparently Lowpoly had a problem with.  I'm not making dozens of these by myself with my own man hours.  I did that as a sculptor and it was total crap.  I'm trying to find the cheapest and most cost effective production methods possible so that you all could potentially buy one, or put one together yourself using my methods if you want to collect the parts yourself for much less than a hhkb.   That will take a lot of man hours up front, for hopefully lots of savings later on for everyone.  I'm doing this during my short summer vacation and trying to make as much headway as possible.

[chimera15]

This looks interesting....smallish holes, but potential.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Roper-Whitney-5-Jr-Hand-Punch-Kit-/120463931715?cmd=ViewItem&pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1c0c35b943

I could potentially punch 4 small holes, then just cut the pieces that would be left in between.....that might work if the cnc thing turns out to be too expensive.

[chimera15]

Melissa wrote me back!

Phil-

A blank set of keys is definitely cheaper than a printed set. For one complete set of blanks, the price would be $95 - not including shipping. A fully printed set (not including any of the front print I see below) would be around $190. My only concern would be the 'J shaped' enter key - I need to check with production to see if we can make one the size you have listed below. However if you are open to modification, I can send you a list of the sizes we have.

Let me know if you have any questions or if you need any other information.

Thanks!

 

Melissa
Signature Plastics LLC



It's looking right now like it's possible, but the overall cost of the board is looking like it's going to be close to $400 if I can't get the cost of the caps down, which is far over what I was hoping for.  

There's the possibility I could use the letter/number set from the scorpius, and just get the special keys from SP. I'm asking that question right now.  That would significantly help the cost.

[itlnstln]

Damn, $95 for a set of blanks.  That's dumb.  I mean, Unicomp sells them for $20 (which you might even be able to argue is high itself).  They can't just throw a few caps in bag and send them your way for around $20?

[lowpoly]

This looks interesting....smallish holes, but potential.

Check with seller how far away from the edge you can punch.

[chimera15]

Check with seller how far away from the edge you can punch.

It said 3 and some inches in another auction, which would be fine considering the board will only be about 4 inches wide.

[chimera15]

Damn, $95 for a set of blanks.  That's dumb.  I mean, Unicomp sells them for $20 (which you might even be able to argue is high itself).  They can't just throw a few caps in bag and send them your way for around $20?

Yeah I know, but the problem is because it's relatively custom, and has a lot of odd shapes.  If anyone knows anyone selling cherry caps cheaper that would fit this layout let me know.

[itlnstln]

You can grab a set of Filco caps (blank or w/legends) for about $30 + shipping from Elitekeyboards.  It won't help you for the custom stuff, but at least it'll give you a bunch to work with.

[chimera15]

You can grab a set of Filco caps (blank or w/legends) for about $30 + shipping from Elitekeyboards.  It won't help you for the custom stuff, but at least it'll give you a bunch to work with.

I have a bunch to work with from the scorpius..but  I'd rather not make this board contingent on the availability of m10's alone, or Filcos for that matter.   Not to mention I'd rather have blank caps than black on white. So Majestouch sells blank black cherry caps for a tenkeyless for $30?  Hmm.

[Findecanor]

It's a real shame I can't use this plate.  The plate is perfect except for the right shift, which is in precisely the wrong place for me to put a shrunken right shift and another arrow key.  If it wasn't for that one bad section I could cut down the plate and use it as is.

Show Image

I still think that you could cut that board apart and weld parts of it together. It would be a little bit fiddly work to get the parts aligned perfectly straight, but I think it would still be much, much easier than to drill and dremel a plate from scratch.
For the right shift and cursor keys, could you use /-*-8-9-6-3-, on the numpad? For the left Ctrl/Alt/Fn/Fn, could you use Right Ctrl-Left-Down-Right ?

[chimera15]

I'm kind of wanting to learn how to do a cnc drawing/production piece right now, since I've never done it and it'll be useful to me in the future.  I also think I should be able to punch the holes for the pcb with a cnc as well. Hopefully it won't be too costly, and it'll be exactly correct.

[chimera15]

Look at this.  Melissa wrote me back.  Only 5 sets, the price drops by 70%??  Wow. 5 sets would only be $150...wth??  Only 1.5x the cost of 1 set for 5!??  Funky pricing...

It also appears the bottom keys are the major cost.

"I don't yet have the list of the enter keys, I will send that tomorrow when I get back in the office, but volume pricing for the blank set would be as follows:

1 set             $95 / set

5 sets           $30 / set

10 sets          $23 / set

15 sets          $20 / set

20 sets          $19 / set

 

If you were to only order the bottom row of keys (we actually call this Row4) - I am assuming 9-single sized keys and 4 larger sized keys including the space bar, volume pricing for that would be:

1 set             $85 / set

5 sets           $20 / set

10 sets          $12 / set

15 sets          $10 / set

20 sets          $8 / set

 

I know one set seems like alot, but when you spread that setup time over a larger quantity of keys, the unit price goes down.

Again, we are talking blank keys - no printing whatsoever, and this does not include freight/shipping.

 

Let me know if you have any questions - I will get that list of enter keys over to you tomorrow.

Thanks!"

If I buy enough to actually build kits/boards to sell, and assuming that the pcb/plate/case don't get too pricey that means it drops the price to HHKB prices by that fact alone.... This might actually be feasible.

The thing I'm worried about right now is the case, but I need to design the plate and pcb first and get those taken care of.

[chimera15]

I finished an illustrator file with exact measurements.  All I need is to know what enter key size they have.  Was really tough to get all the measurements correct.  This is a jpg version of the vector file:



I realize I need to come up with a better name for these drawings if I'm going to show them to people.  I can't just keep calling it a scratch built mini, and I need to put information on the drawing for what it is.  



Any suggestions? I was thinking about "GeekHack Hacking Keyboard"?  So GHH, since DMW and a lot of other people have contributed to this board so far. Would that be acceptable, or should I think of something that doesn't associate with this forum...? lol  Let's make a keyboard company like the KBT guys. lol

edit: I realize looking at that I made a 3mm mistake on the left spacebar stabilizer hole.  Well it's still a wip.

[chimera15]

Fixed the stabilizer hole.

[lowpoly]

Nice, you could convert that to iges and import into the emachineshop software. I'll stop mentioning emachineshop now. :-)

Here's a CNC punch:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IAHU0a03OPM

So your plate might be possible without special tools.

[chimera15]

Nice, you could convert that to iges and import into the emachineshop software. I'll stop mentioning emachineshop now. :-)

Here's a CNC punch:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IAHU0a03OPM

So your plate might be possible without special tools.

Really interesting. That does look like what I need.  My next step is to design the pcb wiring.  Then I'll probably try to put them all together and design a case in a 3d program, so I can figure out where the holes will go for screws as well.

[chimera15]

Surprisingling or rather not based on what DMW was telling me, SP doesn't sell the little stabilizer plastic pieces for Cherry caps.  They expect you to use more than 1 switch to stabilize a large cap, which seems unreasonable on a production board.  Anyone know where I can get those little plastic parts and maybe even the wires?  I can cannibalize the scorpius for the first board, but if I actually manage to produce more than a handful of these it'll become necessary to find a place that sells them.  If I can't find a place I may have to redesign the board for extra switches.

[chimera15]

I realized I put too many keys in the drawing. lol  It's got an extra set of keys. roflol

[chimera15]

That's better:

SP is telling me they don't have the right size enter key really, so might have to chance the layout some...

[dmw]

Yeah, it really sucks to have to be limited to only those keys that they already have tooling for.  I'm typing full-time now on my HH1, and I'd really like to have the double-height enter keys that I had originally intended before finding out it would cost me >$1500.

As for the stabilizer bars - the double keyswitch method works well in practice.  I have no problem with mine.  And there's another benefit: your PCB could have mounts for three adjacent switches, and the end-user could decide on the arrangement of the caps.  For example:  1 long + 1 short, 1 short + 1 long, or 3 short.

[dmw]

Really interesting. That does look like what I need.  My next step is to design the pcb wiring.  Then I'll probably try to put them all together and design a case in a 3d program, so I can figure out where the holes will go for screws as well.

I did my case in Google Sketchup, which I found really easy to work with.  The only difficult part was getting an output file that Shapeways would accept.  I had to do a lot of conversions.

Before going to Shapeways, I considered having some plexiglas custom-cut, and just sandwiching the keyboard between two pieces.

[chimera15]

Worked all day on these.  This is my wiring solution, such as it is.  I noticed DMW used a much more logical method, but not 100% sure it would work in my case since I'm using cherry's + alps and he just used alps, so there isn't quite as much room.  It's pretty cluttered and high tolerance.  Not sure how much luck I'd have at making some kind of pattern like this by hand.  I think I may have to research photo-etching to do this.  

This was the best I could come up with for the traces.





The major concern I have is that some traces are going to be running an extremely long distance with this configuration.  I'm wondering if the resistance will be too high at the end of the run to recognize the activation of the switch...

The second of course is that the traces may come into contact with the solder points as I have to have them running close to the holes/contacts and under the switches.

This was like doing a puzzle on steroids. Or maybe a maze. lol, and this was simple as far as matrix goes.  I don't know how they ever figure it out for a normal chip.

Last step in illustrator is to do a cap layout which I need for Signature Plastics.  So far they've been pretty good.  An order of 5 sets of caps is pretty realistic, but they need to know the exact measurements of the odd shaped keys.

I realize I need to offset one of the alps pin holes still.   Alps will be mounted upside down.  I also need to do a plate alternative for them.  For now I'm going to concentrate on making a cherry board though.

[dmw]

Nice start!  Here are a few of my thoughts:

• you could greatly simplify this if you route all your columns on one side of the board, and all your rows on the other.  Even with mounts for both Alps and Cherry switches, you should have plenty of room for the traces.
• you'll have much better results if you use PCB drawing software rather than Illustrator for this kind of work.  Besides, you'll need to if you want to send these off to be made.
• Maybe it might be better to ditch the teensy++ and just go with the straight components.  Trying to layer a teensy over the keyboard really complicates things.  Look at the AT90USB chip on the teensy, it's ... well it's teensy.  You could put it down in the blank area where the spacebar goes.

I've only used ExpressPCBs software (which is extremely easy to use), though I've dabbled with a few others.  If you want to give it a try, I'll be happy to lend you a hand.  There's also kicad.  I'm going to do the next version of my board using that, so I'm not tied to only one board vendor.

[ricercar]

This is great work. Helpful and clearly documented. I'm taking notes for my own point-to-point construction.

[chimera15]

Nice start!  Here are a few of my thoughts:

• you could greatly simplify this if you route all your columns on one side of the board, and all your rows on the other.  Even with mounts for both Alps and Cherry switches, you should have plenty of room for the traces.
• you'll have much better results if you use PCB drawing software rather than Illustrator for this kind of work.  Besides, you'll need to if you want to send these off to be made.
• Maybe it might be better to ditch the teensy++ and just go with the straight components.  Trying to layer a teensy over the keyboard really complicates things.  Look at the AT90USB chip on the teensy, it's ... well it's teensy.  You could put it down in the blank area where the spacebar goes.

I've only used ExpressPCBs software (which is extremely easy to use), though I've dabbled with a few others.  If you want to give it a try, I'll be happy to lend you a hand.  There's also kicad.  I'm going to do the next version of my board using that, so I'm not tied to only one board vendor.

I don't think I have the budget to send them out to be done for the price you quoted.  Unless they have a deal like Signature plastics where they actually sell more for less...

I think I'm going to have to do it myself.  I don't think its going to be impossible.

I didn't see any other way to do the layout without extending the size of the pcb... If I put the chip directly on the board then it becomes something that I definitely can't do on my own, and I'm not sure that putting the chip near the spacebar is possible without making the traces very small, which they are on the chip already.   It would surely increase the price.  I'm hoping there's an easy way to do photo etching.  I think I read about a simple method once to do it.  Maybe it was on Mythbusters even, when they did that thumb print episode...

[chimera15]

Yeah from my old model making days:

http://www.starshipmodeler.com/tech/fh_pe.htm

http://www.fullnet.com/~tomg/gooteepc.htm

Ok, need a laser printer sounds like.

[chimera15]

Laserjets are laser printers right?  I think this one would work?

http://cgi.ebay.com/HP-4000N-LASERJET-PRINTER-/140422615209?cmd=ViewItem&pt=COMP_Printers&hash=item20b1d710a9

Cheaper one:

http://cgi.ebay.com/HP-2100-LASERJET-PRINTER-/140422614651?cmd=ViewItem&pt=COMP_Printers&hash=item20b1d70e7b


Yup looks like :

"- Print the pattern, using the darkest laser printer settings (On my LaserJet 4, I use: Dithering: NONE, Intensity: DARKEST, "Raster Graphics", "Print Truetype as Graphics", and RET (Resolution Enhancement Technology): OFF). If you have a "Manual Feed" tray, such that the paper doesn't have to bend as many times, or as much, USE IT. [But I still sometimes have to "help" the paper to keep moving, as it exits the printer. (Maybe my rollers are dusty?)] "

[lowpoly]

IIRC, these guys have been recommended here before:

http://batchpcb.com

[dmw]

Wow.  BatchPCB looks great.  My board, if done by them, would cost ~$165!  That's about half of what I paid ExpressPCB.  They said in their FAQ that costs could go as low as 5 cents per square inch on large runs.  That would bring my board down to $3.30!  Though I don't think I'll ever order enough volume to get that kind of discount, it gives me a better idea of the possible price range.

[dmw]

I don't think I have the budget to send them out to be done for the price you quoted.  Unless they have a deal like Signature plastics where they actually sell more for less...

I think I'm going to have to do it myself.  I don't think its going to be impossible.

Definitely not impossible.  But you are still better off using some kind of PCB software, so if you ever do decide to do a production run, you'll be all set.  Plus, the software helps you get your design right. The right tool for the job and all that...

I didn't see any other way to do the layout without extending the size of the pcb...

Did you try putting the column traces on the same side as the teensy board?  I think you'll find that the row traces are much simpler this way.  If you want to try redoing your layout in kicad or one of the other free PCB CAD tools, I'll be happy to help with your layout.

If I put the chip directly on the board then it becomes something that I definitely can't do on my own, and I'm not sure that putting the chip near the spacebar is possible without making the traces very small, which they are on the chip already.

Those tiny chips can be soldered by hand, but you're right, it is much more difficult.  I'm not sure why putting the chip near the spacebar would affect the size of the traces.  The traces would have to start small anyway since the leads on the chip are tiny.  Traces that small can be a problem however when etching your own board.  You especially want to avoid sharp corners.  So maybe it is better to stick with the Teensy, at least for the first version.

It would surely increase the price.

Board prices seem to be measured in square inches, not in number of components.

[chimera15]

It's a real problem.  Your post made me consider why what you said wouldn't work.  It brought up another problem with a two sided design...  The switches have to be mounted on the other side from the chip the way I have it currently designed.  As well as what you suggested.  Right now the chip is blocking those switch positions, which I hadn't considered.   I think I may have to extend the pcb or figure out what you're talking about.  One way or another what you're suggesting will cause me to have to put jumps for leads into the pcb, from the backside to the front and such, and I didn't want to do that if I didn't have to.

I may be able to put a little module on top of the keyboard or something.  If I keep the teensy++ board that means though that the connection will now be parallel to the board unless I desolder the port and mount it somehow in the case, which kind of sucks.

The other way might just to make solder attachments that I could just wire up and bring the chip back over to the other side and mount in the case....

[dmw]

Ah, I didn't realize that you were attempting to design a single-sided board.  I assumed both of the designs you posted were to be etched, but the side with the teensy, those traces are just wires, right?  It's making more sense to me now.

Making a double-sided board by hand would be a chore, I believe.  You would have to have both sides lined up really well, so when you drill your holes you hit the right point on both sides.  I've never done this mind you.  I'm just speculating.

If you want to stick to a single sided board, you could shorten those crazy row traces by adding short jumper wires to your design.   Something like this:



The jumper wires are in red.  I don't know if you had diodes in your design, but I've left them out of this simple mock-up.

[chimera15]

My board is double sided, just I don't want to use through the board traces, or jumpers wires.  That's the problem.  Every one of those jumps will take time to solder in, that's 16x5 =80 jumps, which will be time consuming and ridiculous to do. I'd rather just be able to do the process and dunk it in the acid, then wire the chip and switches, and the 21 through the board jumps already on the board.

[dmw]

Ah, sorry, I get it now.  I didn't realize that your overriding constraint was minimizing soldering by minimizing through-holes and jumpers.  With that in mind, your board designs make a lot more sense to me now.

Are you planning on hand-building a lot of these?

[dmw]

Just a thought, but maybe, since the teensy board is only 0.7 inches wide, you could mount it sideways at a board edge using 90 degree angle pin headers.  One edge would be a regular short 90 degree header, and the other edge would be a long one.  I found some long ones online that might fit the bill.



Might work?

[chimera15]

Just a thought, but maybe, since the teensy board is only 0.7 inches wide, you could mount it sideways at a board edge using 90 degree angle pin headers.  One edge would be a regular short 90 degree header, and the other edge would be a long one.  I found some long ones online that might fit the bill.

Show Image

Might work?

Yeah, the big problem though is that if I mount it any other way than it is right now in the design, the connector will be difficult to access.  I think I'm going to have to create through the board holes and use wires so I can mount it in the case.  The really big problem of doing it that way is that it doesn't even have a hole to put a screw in it to keep it tied down.  What a mess.

[dmw]

You could use this:



Or alternately, don't expose a plug at all. Just add a place in the case to secure the cable before it exits.  Wrap it around a screw post or something.

Another option would be to mount a mini-B plug directly to the main board, and run wires from the teensy to it.  Just 4 more wires and a plug to solder.  Not too bad.

[dmw]

You know, with those three methods of running a cable, there's no need to have the teensy rigidly attached to the main board.  You could use solid wire ribbon cable and attach the teensy directly to the edge of the main board, then fold it over so it lays flush with the board.

[chimera15]

You know, with those three methods of running a cable, there's no need to have the teensy rigidly attached to the main board.  You could use solid wire ribbon cable and attach the teensy directly to the edge of the main board, then fold it over so it lays flush with the board.

Yup, that's what I was planning, one way or the other.

[chimera15]

So here's the new idea.  The chip is suspended below the circuit-board and tied to it by wires.  

[chimera15]

That step may actually be unnecessary though looking at the back side.   I could probably just simplify it by running the wires directly to the holes instead of using secondaries now.  I may be able to get away with a single side circuit board

[didjamatic]

Seriously awesome thread.

[chimera15]

Alright, the final idea, with the wire layout, and the chip directly hooked up to the trace side by wires.  Then the other side will be completely blank with the switches on that side and all the wiring and traces on the other.  



I'll have to come up with something in the case that will allow the wiring to be routed cleanly.  Also it occurred to me there should be a hole in the case that will allow the pushing of the programming button on the teensy so it can be programmed without breaking open the case.

[dmw]

Some questions and suggestions:

You'll want to go through and eliminate all the sharp bends in your traces.  They tend to get eaten during etching, leaving you with very thin corners.

The 4 traces running between the alps mounts on the top row look awfully tight. Do you have any actual measurements for the trace widths and the distance between them?  What about the pads?  How much copper are you leaving around the holes?

Just curious - how do you plan on drilling the 400+ holes?

[chimera15]

Some questions and suggestions:

You'll want to go through and eliminate all the sharp bends in your traces.  They tend to get eaten during etching, leaving you with very thin corners.

The 4 traces running between the alps mounts on the top row look awfully tight. Do you have any actual measurements for the trace widths and the distance between them?  What about the pads?  How much copper are you leaving around the holes?

Just curious - how do you plan on drilling the 400+ holes?

Yeah I know, it's screwed, and further screwed now by the fact that I measured the standard key which turned out to be 18mm, with a hole of 14mm for each switch it means there's 2mm on each side, which means my measurement of 4mm between each hole is wrong, which meant my whole board is off, and it must be a 5mm gap between each switch.  I measured that gap like 20 times.  I had to reset everything to 5mm between each switch hole.

Here's the cap layout:



I need to get some hard  data on the hole measurements now to sort out all the other problems now, but it's super tough since it's about radius's and angle from a centerpoint.  I should have started with this first.

[chimera15]

Yeah my bottom row looks offcenter right now as well...it may be if I shift it over that that right shift becomes normal size? hmm...

This is really odd...

It becomes really difficult when I start measuring in inches because it becomes about fractions of inches, and you have to start adding fractionally.

For instance, the center of the first key is at x=.47 inches, y=1.74 inches  The second key on the right is at x=1.22 inches  So what's that...75 right? but tons of math I have to punch into a calculator.  Well that was a handy check yeah, so 5 mm sounds right.  I need to do that check on the second and third row, thanks.  I wish you had it in mm. lol

How wide is a key Ripster?

I don't get it, this is really confusing me.  Everything looks right in the layout, but the keys look off because the middles don't line up right.

[chimera15]

This should make a little more sense I hope:


Alright, thanks to Ripster's measurements I should have it a lot closer if not perfect.

[chimera15]

Does anyone know above what measurement you should add stabilizers for a cherry key by chance?

[chimera15]

I was able to copy the cherry schematic into illustrator, then use it as an underlay to get the position of the drill points exact.  As well I was able to drill through my m10 board and experiment where an alps switch would sit perfectly. So I should be able to tell from that close enough where the alps holes will fit.  Surprisingly it looks like I had more room than I originally thought.  The big question will be if there will be enough room for good round soldering pads.   It may be that I just do the wiring that goes straight through the hole, then you would have to solder the switch to that point, which might be harder to solder.  I'll try to get some good pads there.

[chimera15]

Redid all the wiring.



I think that's it for illustrator.  I also added solder points around the drill holes, but they're pretty thin relatively. One solution to this might be to extend the trace around this point into directions that the wiring isn't conflicting.  This should provide a good anchor for the switch, and not get in the way of the traces.   I hope I can use the same cnc I use to do the plate to drill them.  The next step I think is to go 3d, then I have to break down and actually spend some money I guess. lol

The largest question with this layout of course won't be known till it's made, that if the resistance is too great in the 5th row and cause problems.  The longest trace to left control is equivalent of being at least several feet long.

[dmw]

Looking better!

Some considerations:

I notice that there are no diodes in your layout.  This would mean that you'd have to turn on ghost-key blocking in the firmware.  With a strict grid layout as you've done, you're likely going to run into problems with your modifier keys. For keyboards without diodes, some thought usually goes into how to arrange the matrix so that modifier keys don't cause ghost-key blocking.  Dave Dribin's site has a good description of the problem, and the solution with diodes.

If the trace length does turn out to be a problem, you could shorten them somewhat by running half the rows over the top of the column traces and the other half (or 2/5ths as the case may be) around the bottom of the column traces.  This can be accommodated by moving the through-holes for the columns up from the bottom slightly - maybe even between the keys.  This would also help you avoid the problem I mentioned before, with too many traces crunched between the holes for the Alps key mounts in the top row.

[chimera15]

Looking better!

Some considerations:

I notice that there are no diodes in your layout.  This would mean that you'd have to turn on ghost-key blocking in the firmware.  With a strict grid layout as you've done, you're likely going to run into problems with your modifier keys. For keyboards without diodes, some thought usually goes into how to arrange the matrix so that modifier keys don't cause ghost-key blocking.  Dave Dribin's site has a good description of the problem, and the solution with diodes.

If the trace length does turn out to be a problem, you could shorten them somewhat by running half the rows over the top of the column traces and the other half (or 2/5ths as the case may be) around the bottom of the column traces.  This can be accommodated by moving the through-holes for the columns up from the bottom slightly - maybe even between the keys.  This would also help you avoid the problem I mentioned before, with too many traces crunched between the holes for the Alps key mounts in the top row.

Hmm, I suppose I should test that on my test board...  I didn't notice it being like 2 key rollover or anything.  That may be something that can be done later, but I'm not sure there's enough room there as it stands to drill more holes.  If I can actually get a plate/board made maybe you can show me how to turn the anti-ghosting feature on on the teensy.

[dmw]

Ghost-key blocking is turned off on your test board.  So you won't see 2 key rollover, but you will see ghost characters.

It looks to me like there is room for diodes between the rows.  Especially if you reroute the last two row traces around the bottom instead of the top.

[dmw]

maybe you can show me how to turn the anti-ghosting feature on on the teensy.

Just edit Matrix.kspec and change:

Code: [Select]

BlockGhostKeys:no
to

Code: [Select]

BlockGhostKeys:yes

[chimera15]

Melissa from Signature Plastics and I finally got the layout worked out for the caps, so I'm going to order 5 sets.  She also redid the drawings in illustrator for the caps.  Pretty amazing:

[chimera15]

Now I just need a plate which is my next top priority for this board.  The blank pcb still hasn't come from the person I ordered it from....I may need to find a new source.

[morffius]

This is amazing! I just jumped on the bandwagon with a Filco black and am already interested in modding. This would be ultimate. I love the progress and the teamwork here and all over this forum so far.  You can count me in for this custom board!

[Swede]

Wow!!
This is just amazing! I'm all over this board xD To bad it's in us layout, but this board is so awesome I want it anyway!
Any chance you might try a Eu layout in a later revision, if this is succesful?

Might seeing this wrong but, looks like you have to make completely new layout for Eu. Because the layout is so slimmed, I can't see a place for another key, maybe you have to cut into the enterkey to prevent that... or loose the arrow keys :/
Can't wait to see this board finished, it will be epic

[chimera15]

Finally got the blank pcb for this.  Was like a month lead time...  If I sell these I'm going to have to order a huge quantity or find faster source.  Still waiting on the caps.  Going to build a 3d model next.  Taking a 3d modeling course, so hopefully can do it for one of my projects.

[Input Nirvana]

Thanks for showing the individual progressive steps and the thinking that goes into the decisions you make. That in itself is interesting and has transferable value. I've found it to be of great assistance with my silly stuff!

[chimera15]

Finished a cap render, well sort of finished, some places are still kind of rough I noticed after the render.

[rantenki]

Finally got the blank pcb for this.  Was like a month lead time...  If I sell these I'm going to have to order a huge quantity or find faster source.  Still waiting on the caps.  Going to build a 3d model next.  Taking a 3d modeling course, so hopefully can do it for one of my projects.

You may want to look at gold phoenix if you are doing multiple boards: http://www.goldphoenixpcb.biz/special_price.php as they are the company that actually manufactures boards for BatchPCB/Sparkfun (don't let them know I told you that)

Also, I don't know if you had a solution for the metal plate (so many posts), but you may want to look at http://bigbluesaw.com/ ,  who can waterjet cut steel/aluminum to very tight tolerances (not as much rounding in the corners).

[microsoft windows]

Finished a cap render, well sort of finished, some places are still kind of rough I noticed after the render.

Show Image

That might be something with anti-aliasing.

[chimera15]

Finally got the caps.  3 steps left to get a fully produced keyboard.  Plate, pcb, case.





I think the caps look pretty good.  They'll definitely work if I can get working plate dimensions.  At least now I have the end point of my design so I'm not up in the air if the final dimensions are correct or not.  Unfortunately I'm really busy with school right now.  I'm not sure when I'll have the time to find out a way to produce the plate.  I also need to get a laser printer to try to work on the pcb, but low on funds.

[dmw]

Exciting!  Doesn't it make you want to just drop everything to work on your keyboard?  I was in a pretty similar position as you when I started on my keyboard.  I was in school, and I found it difficult to study when I really wanted to work on the board.  

Looking forward to future updates - whenever you're able to get back to it.

[clee]

Damn, dude. My hat's off to you, this is truly awesome stuff.

I wonder if anybody even makes scooped aluminum keycaps. I'd like to try something like that.

[cirthix]

Just get a PCB made.  33 bucks (~50 shipped) will get you a 2layer board from 4pcb/advancedpcb if you're a student.  good quality, good turnaround, good prices.  I've used them for projects a few times and recommend them.

As for layout, get the altium designer trial edition.  fully featured for 30 days.

[WhiteRice]

Just get a PCB made.  33 bucks (~50 shipped) will get you a 2layer board from 4pcb/advancedpcb if you're a student.  good quality, good turnaround, good prices.  I've used them for projects a few times and recommend them.

As for layout, get the altium designer trial edition.  fully featured for 30 days.

This was exactly what I was looking for. Good to know if I ever make my own.

[didjamatic]

This looks great Chimera.

[chimera15]

Just get a PCB made.  33 bucks (~50 shipped) will get you a 2layer board from 4pcb/advancedpcb if you're a student.  good quality, good turnaround, good prices.  I've used them for projects a few times and recommend them.

As for layout, get the altium designer trial edition.  fully featured for 30 days.

Hmm I'll look them up.  This is my next project and I'm so close on it.  All I really need to have a functional keyboard is the plate and pcb.  The case may be a big hurdle, but the keyboard would be working  if I could just get the pcb and plate. I could make the case out of cardboard if I had to.

[chimera15]

Trying to work on this project again.  Still looking for an economical way to cut square holes in aluminum.  Found this page.  

http://makezine.com/extras/15.html

The greenlee die looks like the best method.  I need to find one for around or less than $100 though that's 14mm.   Might be tough.

Yup, no luck finding one that's 14mm...  I don't think the hole for cherry switches have a good inch comparison?  They're like .55 inches or so?

The other method is possibly the Whitney punch, but again 14mm may be a problem.  I may call Whitney to see if they have any suggestions.