Truly Ergonomic Unboxing

[iMav]

Emailed them and got tracking info as well.  Due to be delivered on Monday (19 Dec 2011).

[Gerk]

What model and switches did everyone get?  I've got a 109 with reds on the way.

[aogail]

Long time lurker here. It's been nearly ten months since my preorder, but I just received my TE keyboard today! I am liking the feel so far. The non-alphanumeric key arrangement is going to take some getting used to, particularly backspace and enter, and shift. Like the OP, I think I will be swapping ctrl and shift. Muscle memory is strong.

Edit: To answer Gerk, I got a 104 with blues.

For shipping speed comparison, I am near Portland, Oregon.

[Input Nirvana]

Pics please

[aogail]

Pics please

I am at work with only my crappy phone camera, so here's one picture for now:

[ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 35095[/ATTACH]

[sordna]

Hehe, nice. I wonder if the middle column keycaps could be replaced by the closest rectangular keycap size (ie Left Shift, Backspace, CapsLock, Tab keycaps of a normal keyboard). Rectangular keycaps would be able to be flipped to choose if you want an angle for thumb use or index finger use.

[Gerk]

That's a good idea. I have spare keycaps of various sizes so I'll give that a try once I have mine and see how it works out.

[Architect]

Got mine - two blank 109 keyboards. Totally worth the wait. What a kick! I'm coming from two Kinesis so I'm having to adjust to the new keyboard.

So far my response it positive, its a very solid and substantial keyboard. Wonderful size, I really appreciate the keyboard cover. I'll see how it is when I get adjusted but I'm thinking this may be my ideal keyboard.

[sordna]

Hey, long time no see! You know what would be really great, is if you could somehow take a picture that shows the hands over the keyboard in normal typing position (elbows at 90° angle) because some folks (myself included) think the separation and/or angle of the 2 keyboard sections is not generous enough.

[Architect]

Hey, long time no see! You know what would be really great, is if you could somehow take a picture that shows the hands over the keyboard in normal typing position (elbows at 90° angle) because some folks (myself included) think the separation and/or angle of the 2 keyboard sections is not generous enough.

I'll try to do that. I'm over six feet tall (long arms and lean) and the separation is just fine. My arms are presently comfortably typing with the arms almost at a 90 degree angle, probably an 80 degree angle. Its funny, I thought about the same thing, but the actual keyboard with your hands has the hands comfortably sitting at a greater angle then seems like would be the case by the visual pictures.

The trouble adjusting so far is the placement of the shift versus command keys (for me), and the vertical placement of the keys, even though the Kinesis has vertical placement. As I'm speaking however I'm adjusting however. Pretty neat!

EDIT: by the way, I AM glad that I ordered two keyboards at the sale price of $100 each, and I stayed with them. I'm falling in love with these as I'm getting used to them.

[Input Nirvana]

I am at work with only my crappy phone camera, so here's one picture for now:

(Attachment Link) 35095[/ATTACH]

Kudos for jumping right into work with a new keyboard

[Input Nirvana]

Kudos for jumping right into work with a new keyboard

How are you using the center vertical row as far as thumb on the bottom key only, fingers on the rest, or thumb on the bottom AND the next key above the bottom key (with fingers on the rest?

[hoggy]

It would be good to see both a TE and a Kinesis in the same photo so we can get a good comparison.

Have you found any negative aspects of the TE?

Got mine - two blank 109 keyboards. Totally worth the wait. What a kick! I'm coming from two Kinesis so I'm having to adjust to the new keyboard.

So far my response it positive, its a very solid and substantial keyboard. Wonderful size, I really appreciate the keyboard cover. I'll see how it is when I get adjusted but I'm thinking this may be my ideal keyboard.

[Input Nirvana]

It would be good to see both a TE and a Kinesis in the same photo so we can get a good comparison.

Especially since TE makes the comparison on their website, I'd like some real-world comparisons.

[aogail]

How are you using the center vertical row as far as thumb on the bottom key only, fingers on the rest, or thumb on the bottom AND the next key above the bottom key (with fingers on the rest?

I am doing thumb on bottom only. It feels more natural to shift my finger over & down than to shift my thumb up. Here are a few photos to illustrate. From left to right: resting position, finger to backspace, and thumb to backspace.

[ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 35134[/ATTACH] [ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 35135[/ATTACH] [ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 35136[/ATTACH]

[Input Nirvana]

Wow, that is a GREAT illustration. It definitely seems that trying to use the thumb for the backspace key is counter-intuitive and un-ergonomic. Of course hand size/shape may be a little different for some people.

Typing on the vertical matrix with the uneven rows/column...how's that working? Like it? What have you been typing with previously? Any RSI?

[Jim66]

So you guys that have bought them are comfortable with the separation/angle between the two halves?

[Gerk]

I think only two people here have received them so far, mine is due in today

[iMav]

Got mine

Pics??

Who's going to start a TE thread in the pictures forum?

[xsar]

would have gotten mine today frem FedEx, but wasn't at home... what a bummer. will get it on tuesday, hopefully.
=> Switzerland, for reference of mailing speed

[Gerk]

That's pretty fast delivery to Switzerland!  I'm in Canada (same as TE) and just supposed to get it today.

[Gerk]

Mine has arrived!  Took a few pics and have tested some things out.  I will start a new thread with the details so as not to hijack this one ...

[aogail]

Typing on the vertical matrix with the uneven rows/column...how's that working? Like it? What have you been typing with previously? Any RSI?

I like it. The only letter key I am having trouble adjusting to is C. On a staggered keyboard I hit C with my left index finger, so I am having to retrain myself there. Otherwise, the straight columns and uneven rows feel really natural. It feels better to me than my MS natural.

Previously, most of my typing was on either an MS natural (at work) or a DS International SMK-88 (at home). I don't have any RSI but I feel more comfortable on a separated keyboard.

[Gerk]

I have had RSI issues in the recent past, but so far nothing with this board (but also a couple of hours isn't really much time to tell in that regard).  This board feels as comfortable to me as my ergo 4k split board did in that regard though.  If it was tented just a tiny bit I would be even happier, but I think I will be happy with it the way it is.  It feels more "split" that it looks if that makes any sense.  

The only key for me that's messing me up touch typing is the p key (I had always hit it with the 3rd finger instead of pinky).  I can still do this but it feels awkward so it's a good time to re-learn this muscle memory.  That and the different location for the  single and double quotes are the things that are throwing me off ... I haven't done any programming with this board yet though, so I'll see how well I adjust to the different positions for the slashes and pipe/question mark.

Remapping the command (ctrl) and shift did wonders to bring me up to speed quickly.

[boli]

Hey guys, first post on GH (been a lurker for a while though)

I received the TrulyErgonomic keyboard I pre-ordered as well (in Switzerland)! Who'd have thought it wasn't vapor ware after all. It's the 105 model with cherry browns.

First impressions:

• good build quality
• comfortable/natural basic (grid) layout (I'm using a Kinesis usually, though, so beware)
• good switches (I saw too late they offered reds as well, but browns will do)
• some changes will take some getting used to, like the moved Shift keys for example
• no manual or software was included in the shipment, so I dunno how to remap keys just yet asked via email, we'll see

All in all I'm positively surprised so far, too bad I can't remap stuff just yet.

Update: I've been using a Kinesis keyboard with Colemak layout for the last couple of years. I've done quite a bit of remapping to end up with my current layout. Unfortunatly I can't show you because it won't let me post a URL. >.<

[Lanx]

took me a long time to train myself from using index finger for "c", but it'll still work fine for regular staggered keyboards too though.

[Input Nirvana]

Hey guys, first post on GH (been a lurker for a while though)

I received the TrulyErgonomic keyboard I pre-ordered as well (in Switzerland)! Who'd have thought it wasn't vapor ware after all.

Update: I've been using a Kinesis keyboard with Colemak layout for the last couple of years. I've done quite a bit of remapping to end up with my current layout. Unfortunatly I can't show you because it won't let me post a URL. >.<

Have you, or can you post the layout on the Colemak forum, and copy/paste the url even if it isn't a link?

[Input Nirvana]

I thought this might be helpful for anyone with a Kinesis/Colemak and TE situation happening, so I'm re-posting Boli's info here, he sent it to me at my request:

http://homepage.mac.com/boli/ars/80329_kinesis_colemak_small.png

[ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 35225[/ATTACH]

List of changes (hope I didn't forget anything):[LIST=|INDENT=1]

• Number row is shifted one to left, so numbers are in the same relative position as on staggered keyboards (not by finger layout though), and -= are on the right-most (no need to change muscle memory)
• Replaced Delete key with a second Enter key in the left thumb cluster (don't need Delete much, and Enter key for left hand is godly when mousing with right hand)
• Replaced Home with Ctrl in left thumb cluster
• Replaced End with Delete in left thumb cluster
• All arrow keys are moved to the left side (very useful when right hand is on the mouse)
• Brackets [] moved to bottom right
• Begin/End keys put to to right side, next to the brackets
• Tilde/Tick key moved to Caps Lock
• Original Kinesis-Mac layout

Kinesis Mac layout (default):
[ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 35227[/ATTACH]

[boli]

Cheers input nirvana. I sent you a link to the original Kinesis layout as well, for comparison.

Obviously I'd like to make a few remappings on the TE as well, like swapping the arrow key cluster with the home/end/pageup/pagedown cluster, shifting the numbers row etc.

After using the TE a bit more I'm getting used to the Shift key location - it's very comfortable, just unfamiliar as of now, so I'm not sure if I will remap the Shift keys.

Having been spoilt with a Kinesis I'm not quite used to the backspace location just yet. I might put backspace on the left space key, similar to the Kinesis. The Enter key works quite well already (using the thumb).

The '", \| and /? keys are in weird locations as well, but I guess with the choices available '" might be in the best place already, assuming it's more frequent than the other two.

[Rajagra]

Just got mine. First impressions:
Seems solid and well built. The palm rest is screwed on rather than clip-on. I have yet to undo it.
Keys work as you'd expect from Cherry browns. The space bars do not bind or wobble (being small, they shouldn't!)
Rollover seems good; six keys plus four modifiers (Shift, Ctrl, Alt, Meta.)
Not all standard keys are available, and some key functions are not obvious.

There seem to be no keys for Pause, Right Meta (Windows), Menu, Numeric Enter (but see below.)
In addition, if I switch to 105 key mode, Numeric Minus is lost (returns zero key.)

Fn + {`~} key performs Scroll Lock.
Fn + F5 performs Ins. (Wasn't clear to me what the icon was.)
Fn + 5 performs Right Meta(Win) Pause (brings up Windows System info.)
Fn + 6 performs Right Ctrl Pause (i.e. Break.)

The left space, when reconfigured via DIP switch for the alternate function, returns BIOS code 92 (0x5C) Win code 234 (0xEA) in Aqua's KeyTest.

Fn + Esc does ... who knows what? Frankly, I'm scared to try it in case I reprogram something and can't recover. There are no instructions or software in the box.
Edit> It sends BIOS Key Code 119 (0x77) Window Key Code 255 (0xFF). Doesn't seem to have any other effect.

[ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 35234[/ATTACH]

[Rajagra]

I just needed a break! (But yes, I did misinterpret that post. My bad.)

[Gerk]

Just got mine. First impressions:
Seems solid and well built. The palm rest is screwed on rather than clip-on. I have yet to undo it.
Keys work as you'd expect from Cherry browns. The space bars do not bind or wobble (being small, they shouldn't!)
Rollover seems good; six keys plus four modifiers (Shift, Ctrl, Alt, Meta.)
Not all standard keys are available, and some key functions are not obvious.

There seem to be no keys for Pause, Right Meta (Windows), Menu, Numeric Enter (but see below.)
In addition, if I switch to 105 key mode, Numeric Minus is lost (returns zero key.)

Fn + {`~} key performs Scroll Lock.
Fn + F5 performs Ins. (Wasn't clear to me what the icon was.)
Fn + 5 performs Right Meta(Win) Pause (brings up Windows System info.)
Fn + 6 performs Right Ctrl Pause (i.e. Break.)

The left space, when reconfigured via DIP switch for the alternate function, returns BIOS code 92 (0x5C) Win code 234 (0xEA) in Aqua's KeyTest.

Fn + Esc does ... who knows what? Frankly, I'm scared to try it in case I reprogram something and can't recover. There are no instructions or software in the box.
Edit> It sends BIOS Key Code 119 (0x77) Window Key Code 255 (0xFF). Doesn't seem to have any other effect.

(Attachment Link) 35234[/ATTACH]

Interesting, so you're getting a keycode for the left space bar.  Must be something OSX is doing to block things on my side then, I get nothing still ... have to test this thing on Linux, grrr.

I am guessing that Fn+esc might to be launch the (not yet available) configuration software for the board.  It kinda looks like the TE logo, but who knows for sure

[hoggy]

Nice to see you back Raj!

[boli]

Interesting, so you're getting a keycode for the left space bar.  Must be something OSX is doing to block things on my side then, I get nothing still ... have to test this thing on Linux, grrr.

I am guessing that Fn+esc might to be launch the (not yet available) configuration software for the board.  It kinda looks like the TE logo, but who knows for sure

I can confirm no keycode in Mac OS X when the left spacebar is changed to "alternate" with one of the dip switches. :-/

About the remapping, the last dip switch changes between protected and reprogrammable firmware. If it's even possible to remap on the keyboard itself, without any software (like the Kinesis), I guess that switch would have to be on "programmable". I'm too scared of messing things up to try.

Speaking of dip switches, the one that switches between Ctrl (default) and Command (for mac users) switches both left and right Ctrl to Command, the left Alt stays Alt, the right AltGr becomes Ctrl.

Update: Below is a comparison picture with the Kinesis.

(Apologies for the dirty Kinesis board, it's gathering dust because I'm using another one with red switches instead of brown. I haven't relabeled the other one, which is why I put the old one in the pic)

[Gerk]

I think that the programmable DIP is referring to being able to flash the firmware, not being able to re-program keys within it ... my Realforce board has a similar DIP switch and that's what it is for on that board, but I don't know that for sure.  Let's hope the TE folks give us a manual sooner than later.

Any remapping I've done so far on OSX has all been software with KeyRemap4MacBook and now also using the PCKeyboardHack (I think that's what it's called).

I'm really hoping we can easily reprogram keys with their software if/when it arrives.  I really really want to remap a few things that are not going to be easy to do with the utilities I'm using right now (like shift over the whole number row on to the left).  I think I can even swap around the keycaps to match which I want to do there ...

[sordna]

Update: Below is a comparison picture with the Kinesis.

(Apologies for the dirty Kinesis board, it's gathering dust because I'm using another one with red switches instead of brown. I haven't relabeled the other one, which is why I put the old one in the pic)

Nice photo! Looks like the TE with wrist rest is the same depth as the Kinesis, can you confirm?

...
Hm, Kinesis with reds, that means you got the Advantage LF in Switzerland? Where did you buy it from?

[boli]

I think that the programmable DIP is referring to being able to flash the firmware, not being able to re-program keys within it ...
[snip]
I really really want to remap a few things that are not going to be easy to do with the utilities I'm using right now (like shift over the whole number row on to the left).  I think I can even swap around the keycaps to match which I want to do there ...

Cheers for the info about the DIP switch, I guess that would make sense.

Your remapping plans sound quite similar to mine. The shifted number row thing should come standard on keyboards with grid layout IMHO, it's just way easier to transition to when coming from a regular keyboard. It took me personal experience to get it though, before when I saw it on some Maltron keyboards I thought it was a negative point, now I think it's a plus.

Good point with the key caps, with your 109 model you can even swap the -_ and =+ keys easily, which is awesome. Certain other changes might be more problematic because of the different key cap heights.

Nice photo! Looks like the TE with wrist rest is the same depth as the Kinesis, can you confirm?

...
Hm, Kinesis with reds, that means you got the Advantage LF in Switzerland? Where did you buy it from?

The TE with wrist rest is even roughly one inch deeper than the Kinesis.

I ordered the Advantage LF directly from Kinesis in September 2011, after Input Nirvana mentioned it in the Colemak forums. I think your posts (among others) helped convince me to get one as well.

BTW now I can post links, so maybe you wanna check out this Non-staggered keys AKA matrix or grid layout, especially the Kinesis thread in the Colemak forums, to get some keyboarding background on me. Summary: I like keyboards with grid layout, and have tried out a few. The noteworthy ones are the TypeMatrix, the TrulyErgonomic and the Kinesis.

[Input Nirvana]

Input Nirvanas Positive Assessment:

In retrospect, it speaks volumes that this guy actually delivered the keyboard, and it seems decent. The bottom line, he's just not on par with other manufacturers/designers. In my view, he's just like a group buy guy doing this entirely himself. Nothing more. If we keep that in perspective, it really changes the outlook and expectation level. There are several GH projects that can be just as interesting, functional, cost effective, and available. They will take a while, and have hoops to jump through just like the TE fiasco. Just a different way of achieving the result. Mini-Guru has been an example of the process a single person goes through to do something of this type, and there are/are about to be others. Not to mention the projects I'm not aware of since I rarely follow the typical 'flatboard'. It also highlights that ultimately anyone can make any keyboard. Longevity, profitability and other aspects may not be the goal though.

I don't think tech support or similar follow up aspects are much of a question with the TE. We know it's a single person doing this. With this knowledge, you will see all actions following (at the most) what a single person can do in 24 hour periods. Who knows if there will ever be more TE, or any further development. It appears his only crime is the zero communication game, in an effort to maintain the 'big company facade'.

Truly Ergonomic is one guy, who is equivalent to one 'interest check' thread with a couple hundred posts in the group buy section of GH. Nothing more, and maybe just a little less.

An interesting observation:
If he had come out from behind the curtain a couple years ago, it's doubtful people would have given money and been so patient or been so hopeful. This says a lot about how we view "companies" and the implied trust we give them. Perception vs. reality. A guy with a uniform, gun and badge tells you to jump up and down, you do it without question. Some random guy in sweats issues the same command, and you keep walking.

[wrtcedar]

Thanks for the TE/Kinesis comparison picture boli. Having used both now, do you have a take on how the hand and wrist positioning compares for the two keyboards? I'm particularly interested in ulnar deviation. I have RSI that's aggravated if I can't limit that.

[cjay]

How do you know it’s only one guy? Interesting observation about the implied trust, indeed.

[boli]

Thanks for the TE/Kinesis comparison picture boli. Having used both now, do you have a take on how the hand and wrist positioning compares for the two keyboards? I'm particularly interested in ulnar deviation. I have RSI that's aggravated if I can't limit that.

Surprisingly, ulnar deviation is only a tiny bit more pronounced with the TE compared to the Kinesis, and quite a bit better than with a normal keyboard. The two and a half keys of extra separation and slight outward angle help more than I thought it would. I do have relatively narrow shoulders though, so YMMV.

With the TE being flat the hands are also rather flat, whereas with the Kinesis there is a slight angle: the outer edges of the hand are a little bit lower than the inner edges.

IMO the Kinesis is a better keyboard in general, but so far the TE seems to be a very good alternative if one can't or won't spend as much. In fact it's the best alternative I know, but please note that any keyboard with staggered rows is not even considered by me. Which means my selection and personal experience is limited to the Kinesis, the TE and the TypeMatrix. I'd love to try a Maltron, but given it's more expensive than a Kinesis and can't be remapped in firmware a test purchase (as for this TE) is out of the question.

I do know one person who switched from a Kinesis to a Maltron despite that, and is very happy with the Maltron. Also a work buddy just received his TE keyboard and I'm looking forward to hearing his verdict, because he types Dvorak on a TypeMatrix normally.

[boli]

Woot just received an email from TE with a link to a Installation & Quick Start Guide and PDF manual. Haven't read it before posting this, so I hope it's worth it.

Update (after reading it):
The quick start guide is nice, and the PDF manual is very well done.

The manual does contain a bummer regarding their remapping software: it's not done yet, for the moment we'll have to use 3rd party software. At least they list a few good choices for 3rd party software (at least on the Mac side, dunno about Windows/Linux), but it's still a bit disappointing.

[Input Nirvana]

How do you know it’s only one guy? Interesting observation about the implied trust, indeed.

A European stalker in Canada has had him under surveillance since last spring. A total and complete fluke and kinda weird

I want to add, in addition to my overall (new) positive outlook on the TE, that I'm believing there may be some software/firmware improvements and that owners shouldn't have any meltdowns. It's a new product and buyers knew that. Of course the future....?

ALSO:
This is an extremely valuable template of info for those of with thoughts of bringing a keyboard to market! Watch, observe, and correct the TE steps. It's not often to see the 'birth' of a new product such as this, and so every action should be noted and either accepted and copied, or rejected and flushed. TE has taken a very specific path with many pros and cons. It's just one of many ways to achieve the goal. The delays were the unfortunate brutal blows to the process. The mere fact peeps are having these threads about the TE are now a testament. The fact there are keyboards around the globe offer him the ability to jump start and skip several steps ahead in the next 6-12 months. An important and crucial time if he has the plan and resources. And, no where on the intertoobs is there a TE info/support system like there is on GH. Take note.

I'm in a unique position that if the situation were to present itself, and if there is enough legitimacy to the existing program, I would be recruited to the TE project to establish, market, and create a line of TE products, support, vendor alignments, and vertical integrate with a series of business partners. Hell, I'd do it for $1 and stock options.

[Gerk]

Woot just received an email from TE with a link to a Installation & Quick Start Guide and PDF manual. Haven't read it before posting this, so I hope it's worth it.

Update (after reading it):
The quick start guide is nice, and the PDF manual is very well done.

The manual does contain a bummer regarding their remapping software: it's not done yet, for the moment we'll have to use 3rd party software. At least they list a few good choices for 3rd party software (at least on the Mac side, dunno about Windows/Linux), but it's still a bit disappointing.

Agreed on the bummer about the remapping software.  I think there are some issues with the quickstart guide though, at least in terms of keycodes and the like.  I've been hammering away for the last couple of days trying to get mine sorted out and had to jump through a lot of hoops to do so.  Given the information in the quickstart guide it should be much simpler.  I'm going to try and start fresh with what is in that guide and report back on how it all works out.  I suspect there is some mis-information ... specifically when it comes to the use of keyboard layout v.s language in OSX but I can't say for sure until I try the steps as outlined in the guide.  When I tried to use the JIS layout on my model 109 it did things that, according to the new manual, are not supposed to happen.

[Gerk]

A European stalker in Canada has had him under surveillance since last spring. A total and complete fluke and kinda weird

I want to add, in addition to my overall (new) positive outlook on the TE, that I'm believing there may be some software/firmware improvements and that owners shouldn't have any meltdowns. It's a new product and buyers knew that. Of course the future....?

ALSO:
This is an extremely valuable template of info for those of with thoughts of bringing a keyboard to market! Watch, observe, and correct the TE steps. It's not often to see the 'birth' of a new product such as this, and so every action should be noted and either accepted and copied, or rejected and flushed. TE has taken a very specific path with many pros and cons. It's just one of many ways to achieve the goal. The delays were the unfortunate brutal blows to the process. The mere fact peeps are having these threads about the TE are now a testament. The fact there are keyboards around the globe offer him the ability to jump start and skip several steps ahead in the next 6-12 months. An important and crucial time if he has the plan and resources. And, no where on the intertoobs is there a TE info/support system like there is on GH. Take note.

I'm in a unique position that if the situation were to present itself, and if there is enough legitimacy to the existing program, I would be recruited to the TE project to establish, market, and create a line of TE products, support, vendor alignments, and vertical integrate with a series of business partners. Hell, I'd do it for $1 and stock options.

That's quite a turn around for you Input Nirvana!

[Input Nirvana]

That's quite a turn around for you Input Nirvana!

I KNOW!

Say what you want about me, but you have to admit, I call it as I see it. I'm not married to an idea or emotion that is not valid.

I absolutely abhor and will never agree with the method that TE used this last year, in a professional sense, nor personally. I believe it's 'customer first'. Integrity is paramount. But, that being said, I think the next steps taken (if any) will define if there is a successful building and branching for the future. It's about the future, and now TE has an opportunity to capitalize on it. I see many great possibilities (of course I build companies for a living).

The keyboard has merit. No doubt. If fills a gap, a very large gap. But there's still room. It's not entirely about the keyboard, it's about the ergonomic functionality and showing the ability to create outside the box. I'm confident there are a mountain of struggles for TE, and I would LOVE to see it continue with customizable options and help people. The keyboard is a nobel effort, and this should be used as an example that non-conventional keyboards can be produced and brought to market even at a small level. The internet buzz TE created was the best action they've done, the keyboard is purely secondary. I'm impressed.

Regardless, I'm looking forward to see him handle the tech issues and hopefully build a user group that will insure the success.

[hemflit]

Not really sure how to answer that.  It feels solidly build, doesn't move around.  When the dipswitch is set, the left spacebar sends decimal 103, the right decimal 65.

Hey, thanks for your response (I missed it somehow till now :/ )

103 and 65 are very strange numbers to give. From what set of codes are they? (Or what are you using to get them, or what code do you get for the key 'A'?)

I'm looking at PS/2 and USB scan code tables, and some OS vkey tables, and those codes are nowhere used for anything like the spacebar.

Interesting, so you're getting a keycode for the left space bar.  Must be something OSX is doing to block things on my side then, I get nothing still

I can confirm no keycode in Mac OS X when the left spacebar is changed to "alternate" with one of the dip switches. :-/

Does it pop anything up in a layout-editing program like Ukelele? Maybe that could make it do something useful on OS X?

[Gerk]

Does it pop anything up in a layout-editing program like Ukelele? Maybe that could make it do something useful on OS X?

No, Ukelele is no help.  On a side note Ukelele is only going to be helpful to you if you are doing layout of standard keys (the interface only shows you a standard 104 key layout) so something like the left space bar wouldn't even show up in the GUI of Ukelele anyway.

[wrtcedar]

Surprisingly, ulnar deviation is only a tiny bit more pronounced with the TE compared to the Kinesis, and quite a bit better than with a normal keyboard. The two and a half keys of extra separation and slight outward angle help more than I thought it would. I do have relatively narrow shoulders though, so YMMV.

With the TE being flat the hands are also rather flat, whereas with the Kinesis there is a slight angle: the outer edges of the hand are a little bit lower than the inner edges.

That is surprising. I wouldn't have guessed that the TE would help that much from looking at it. But then I've never been able to figure out where the Kinesis stands there from looking at it either. Thanks for the comparison.

I do like both the pronounced split and the tenting that I have set up on my increasingly decrepit Goldtouch. Given that, perhaps I should see about trying the Kinesis first. I tend to keep computer equipment a long time (the Goldtouch is 13 years old), so I don't mind spending a bit more on something if it will serve me well. It sounds like it's time for a Kinesis road trip. They're just a few hours from where I live.

[boli]

Given that, perhaps I should see about trying the Kinesis first.

That's what I'd recommend if you can spare the extra coin, though trying out different keyboards can't hurt. If you do order a Kinesis be prepared to order a second one soon - one for work, one for home. Also you might want to consider ordering one with Cherry Red switches if you like them. It turns out I prefer those over the normal Cherry Browns, but that's subjective of course. You'll find all about this "Advantage LF" model somewhere in this forum (try sordna's signature).

Not sure if the TE can even be ordered at this time, and if it can at what price. If it's $250 like they said this summer it's a bit too close to the price of a Kinesis IMHO, especially given that firmware remapping isn't available yet.