I don't like where the page nav and arrow keys are. I think I would be accidently pressing them quite often.
I'm a palm rester, though. It's not that I think I am going to hit them with a finger but with my palm.
Poll results are tabulated by Nigerians.
There's a survey on the site so we can give feedback, but they don't have the courage or decency to invite feedback about features we don't like.
.
Why the obsession with Nigerians?? Something to do with District 9?
I just happen to live in North Vancouver, BC, Canada.
Yep, we have a silicon valley. 2+ universities reknowned for engineering and compsci; about 2-3 dozen little software companies (including HQs for EA and Radical games); and hordes and hordes of genius cyborgs imported (sometimes illegally) from various parts of Asia and India. Seems Canada is perceived as a sunny magical land of wealth, prosperity, and happiness to the rest of the world - though why they'd pick Vancouver is beyond me. Plus our wimpy dollar and easily bribed political leaders make business in Canada a very attractive option for US investors. Same reason we have "Hollywood North", also located in/around Vancouver.
I see photoshop.
Look at the edges of the shadow. The Nigerians are getting good at PhotoShop.
Also, the fact that they poured text all over it to cover it up makes me a touch suspicious. I think what is really going on here is that they don't have a production quality prototype, and they are hoping to pre-order and get a batch built in order to finance the next production run.I think this is higly likely.
Much Maligned Nigerians Preying On Illegal Aliens
I thought it was interesting that a movie with an anti-discrimination theme portrayed Nigerians as all being criminals and low-lifes..
But the problem for me is that yours and most other "ergonomic" boards make you angle your left fingers to the left when moving to strike keys above/below the home row.
Try doing the "ISO shuffle" / comfort layout:Show Image(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=3701&d=1249982099)
I.e. use a European/ISO keyboard with the extra key between left shift and Z, then shift ZXCVB to the left via software. Any other moves are optional. The way the QWERTY row is only 1/4 key width to the left of the ASDF row means the change of the top row I've put in that picture doesn't work so well.
On a U.S./ANSI board you could just change the bottom row to be XCVBZ.
Try doing the "ISO shuffle" / comfort layout:Show Image(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=3701&d=1249982099)
Interesting, that's the first I've heard of that layout.
Show Image(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/1/16/STPeakPerform.jpg)
even Data lost on the first round.
That's exactly what I thought when I first saw it. Those keys could be moved down a little to separate them from the main typing keys.
But the more I think about it, the more I suspect it wouldn't be a problem. You never hit space when you aim for C or V on a standard keyboard, do you? Maybe with practice, those keys would be in the ideal place - very easy to reach. I really want to try one of these out.
$40 for shipping? what the?... is it being shipped from the moon?
From Nigeria? Y'know, past all those Somalian pirates?
For USD$208 - equivalent to about ₦31,500 (Nigerian Nairas) - I could buy a Deck Legend, or a Logitech G19, or all sorts of stuff from eBay or GH. Or just buy all the switches and an MCU and build my own in any (ergonomic/custom) form fact I like, lol.
After reading comments on GH though over the past few months, I've come to the conclusion that there will never be a keyboard to please everyone. Probably never even one to please the majority.Hole in one!
After reading comments on GH though over the past few months, I've come to the conclusion that there will never be a keyboard to please everyone..If there was, there would be no need for geekhack. Just a static link to where you could buy this holy grail of keyboards. :)
If there was, there would be no need for geekhack. Just a static link to where you could buy this holy grail of keyboards. :)
$40 for shipping? what the?... is it being shipped from the moon?
Programmability
For those who require special functionality, all keys are reprogrammable. This means that you have the option to simply plug-in the keyboard and use it with the language of your preference without the need to install any software, or have the option to change any required keys for the letters or symbols of your preference using simple software, including both spacebars where each spacebar can have its own functionality.
Additionally, the combination of the Super key and the F1-F12 keys can send special functions like volume up or volume down, or can be set to launch specific applications of your preference. The software also allows choosing from available layouts and templates, then changing required functionality and saving them for later use.
Macros will be available by using a combination of software and hardware, and you will be able to change these as many times as required without the need to reboot the computer.
If there was, there would be no need for geekhack. Just a static link to where you could buy this holy grail of keyboards. :)
Though I never bothered with ergonomic keyboards, I've noticed I tend to kinda type spastically over the keyboard kinda moving around a lot not really staying in place per se; guess that's why I found the kinesis interesting since your forced yourself to stay separated.
I wanted to order it too but I guess it's too late now for the discount. Although the page hasn't changed, it still says before the 12th... but it's the 12th today. What am I going to do!?!?
I'm always automatically skeptical about limited-time-offer sales pressure. The harder the advertiser/salesman tries to push a product in my face, the more suspicious I become.
"Buy it now because it'll go up in price soon!", "but for a limited time - today only - it's on sale at a special discount", "buy it now, before they're all gone!", etc.
If demand for the product is higher than supply, it's selling like crazy, and it's an unbelievably fantastic bargain at this price ... why don't they increase the supply or bump the price (profit) up a notch? It's not like manufacturers and vendors are all magnanimous or running a charity. And it's not like they'll say "ah, well we finally sold all 10,000 units, sorry people there's no more because we're moving on to another product".
I know advertisers are trying to hit you where you're psychologically weak, hype up your interest in the product ... but do they really have to make it so obvious? Does this **** actually work often enough on consumer sheep that they don't even have to think of new tactics?
I know advertisers are trying to hit you where you're psychologically weak, hype up your interest in the product ... but do they really have to make it so obvious? Does this **** actually work often enough on consumer sheep that they don't even have to think of new tactics?
That WebWit. What a joker! (http://www.overclock.net/10998611-post8948.html)
That WebWit. What a joker! (http://www.overclock.net/10998611-post8948.html)
To be honest, I like the general form factor of all three sub-healthy keyboards (especially the top one). I've tried and personally never liked split ergos before, so all the other keyboards in that pic would displease me.Show Image(http://www.trulyergonomic.com/images/TrulyErgonomic_com-Healthiest.jpg)
Yeah, the obviously fabricated reviews were the straw that broke the camel's back for me, and the reason I decided not to order.
During such period, we have manufactured mockups and prototypes as well as fully working prototypes, and during such period as well have had real people test such prototypes making sure we are able to bring you a truly ergonomic keyboard. These individuals are the ones that provided the above reviews and testimonials towards our design.
It says on the same page:
Maybe it's the language barrier? It's a Canadian company after all.xD
Maybe it's the language barrier? It's a Canadian company after all.
There's plenty of sites from prominent Asian companies which just look utterly horrible and amateurish in English, often little more than a "contact us" page. This site might just be one of that sort. I wonder if they're aware of this geekhack thread.
I like my thumb backspace so I'll be looking for the 109A layout.
It's not the fact that there ARE reviews, it's the wording. It's clearly the same guy making them all up. The writing style is quite frankly baffling. Capitalization is wrong, grammar is sometimes wrong, misspellings ("I am amaze with the simplicity of its unique design."). The writing style is consistently bad for every review.
Plus, science. All of the female named reviewers reviews judged together:Show Image(http://imgur.com/jwpdA.png)
I think the advantage of the TEK is that they've removed a lot of the stupid and unhealthy aspects of conventional boards, while keeping it looking, well, still much like a conventional keyboard.
what would you say qualifies as this?
as an example i played around with my modded board and i put a enter key in between my ergo split and it rarely gets used, in fact i'm trying to tell my brain to hit it right now but i still default to using the right pinky.
what would you say qualifies as this?
The TrulyErgonomic has done something that is mind-crushingly obvious. They've given each hand five columns of four keys with the columns aligned pointing at the elbow. Nearly all commonly used characters are in this area. (Only exceptions are / ? and - but they are put very close by.)
Bingo. The problem of ulnar deviation (http://www.kinesis-ergo.com/ulnar_deviation-c.htm) is solved. Achieves the same result as the Kinesis without having an oversized board. I would argue the TEK does this in a better way than the Kinesis. Having the forearms angled inwards is a more natural, relaxed position for me.
I would imagine if they're successful at all they'll be copied by other board makers.I don't think so. It seems people are so terrified of anything that deviates from the old typewriter design, they are reluctant to use it. Only the 'nerds' are interested in a board like this, I'm afraid.
Nigerians are carving Raj's right now.
Show Image(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=8232&d=1268095198)
but there's no such thing as a right handed nostromo =/yet...
Another note about this 'Truly Ergonomic Keyboard', surely if it was 'truly ergonomic' it would support more adjustment than it does currently? I would be put off by the fact that if the angle that the columns of keys are in is not to your suiting then you are effectively in a 'non-truly ergonomic' situation.
but there's no such thing as a right handed nostromo =/
Nice.Marketing research revealed that "Yet Another Ergonomic Keyboard" would not reach the desired target audience, so they thought they could get away with "truly".
Another note about this 'Truly Ergonomic Keyboard', surely if it was 'truly ergonomic' it would support more adjustment than it does currently? I would be put off by the fact that if the angle that the columns of keys are in is not to your suiting then you are effectively in a 'non-truly ergonomic' situation.
Well naturally one does note that the term 'ergonomically' is not well defined in any useful way.
Sure it is. It is based in greek and stands for human engineering. Human engineering being "an applied science that coordinates the design of devices, systems, and physical working conditions with the capacities and requirements of the worker"
So yeah.
Looks like the pre-order price reduction has ended... it's listed for $200 now. I hope this means it's coming along nicely and that I'll get the board in December with no delays.
Looks like the pre-order price reduction has ended... it's listed for $200 now. I hope this means it's coming along nicely and that I'll get the board in December with no delays.
To be fair, this is far and away too much effort for a scam compared to the norm.
i wonder there is no adress for the company @ webside
only "City of Vancouver in British Columbia, Canada"
but no postal adress or telephonenumber
there is no possibility to pick up a keyboard in vancouver?
hmm, hmm. pre-order with feeling blue? no
Registrant Name: Truly Ergonomic
Registrant Company: Truly Ergonomic Ltd.
Registrant Email Address: TrulyErgonomic@shaw.ca
Registrant Address: 9100 West 3rd Avenue
Registrant City: Vancouver
Registrant State/Region/Province: BC
Registrant Postal Code: V6J 1L3
Registrant Country: CA
Registrant Tel No: +1.6045556677
Registrant Fax No: +1.6045556677
Did they really just use a 555 phone #? Oh yes they did! The address is real enough though.
I wonder how it's programmable though. Do you use something like a tool to configure and then 'flash' the 'firmware'? I don't know of any keyboards that are fully programmable.Looks like the website has been updated:
(Programmable keys, etc etc...)
(...)
The software to do the above will be provided by us and will change the firmware of the keyboard. Hence, you can disconnect the keyboard and connect it to another computer preserving its functionality. If you are using a computer non-compatible with the software, you can use another compatible computer to reprogram your keyboard and then connect into your computer. The software also allows choosing from available layouts and templates, then changing required functionality and saving them for later use.
Haha, Discovery...
KEYBOARD CLAIMS TO REVOLUTIONIZE TYPING (http://news.discovery.com/tech/keyboard-claims-to-revolutionize-typing.html#mkcpgn=rssnws1)
Haha, Discovery...
KEYBOARD CLAIMS TO REVOLUTIONIZE TYPING (http://news.discovery.com/tech/keyboard-claims-to-revolutionize-typing.html#mkcpgn=rssnws1)
Whew! One paragraph down, and I already need a break.
Those arrow keys didn't just throw themselves into an inverted T pattern.
Dude, January is 2 months away...
The point is that it said December 2010. Now it's January. When December rolls by, then what? February 2011. They'll just keep on delaying and then one day, BAM! Canceled.
They've been updating the site quite a bit, by the way. It has a lot of stuff now, lol.
I hope if it is cancelled it's with refunds, can a company keep the monies off of pre-orders if the company folds or chapter 11? idk.
When are pre-orders expected to be deliver
Pre-order delivery is estimated for Early 2011, subject to change due to number of pre-orders which allow us to cost-effectively manufacture a precise quantity of each keyboard model reducing overall production and inventory costs and guaranteeing the manufacturing of required models.
Can anybody translate what he is trying to say? I graduated in economics, but I don't get it. Anyone?
Can anybody translate what he is trying to say? I graduated in economics, but I don't get it. Anyone?
Pre-order delivery is estimated for Early 2011, subject to change due to number of pre-orders which allow us to cost-effectively manufacture a precise quantity of each keyboard model reducing overall production and inventory costs and guaranteeing the manufacturing of required models.
subject to change due to number of pre-orders which allow us to cost-effectively manufacture a precise quantity of each keyboard model
reducing overall production and inventory costs
guaranteeing the manufacturing of required models.
The point is that it said December 2010. Now it's January. When December rolls by, then what? February 2011. They'll just keep on delaying and then one day, BAM! Canceled.
They've been updating the site quite a bit, by the way. It has a lot of stuff now, lol.
I hate ergonomic boards. They seem harder to use than regular KBs.
Maybe that's because nobody's made a well-designed ergonomic board yet, at least none that you've tried. I'm in the same position as you. All ergonomic boards I've tried have been horrible and worse than regular boards. I doubt the Truly Ergonomic will be good enough for me to switch, but I do want one to test out their concept. I've also never tried a DataHand, which I think might be to my liking, but they're no longer available new. I'd also love to try the Kinesis and uTron, but I have serious doubts about both of them also (non-separable halves for the Kinesis, and small non-standard keycaps for the uTron).
I do really believe that a properly designed ergonomic board would be a big improvement over a standard keyboard if I can ever find one (or make my own), and if I spend the time to overcome the years of familiarity with the standard layout.
Yep, no design is better than the standard.
And it is an outrage that if people want something different, they'll have to break the bank just to overcome the obvious flaws of regular keyboards.
Or make their own creation!
their site at one point said delivery in Q2, 2010.
+1!
i'm using model f parts to make mine :)
Pre-order delivery is estimated for Early 2011, subject to change due to number of pre-orders which allow us to cost-effectively manufacture a precise quantity of each keyboard model reducing overall production and inventory costs and guaranteeing the manufacturing of required models
They're slowly adding updates to the website. Pic of keycaps:Show Image(http://www.trulyergonomic.com/images/TrulyErgonomic_com-Keycaps.jpg)
but using ring for "x" is kinda impossible. actually to me it's almost like that bar trick where if you put your middle finger underneath your hand you can't move your ring finger. (at least x is rarely used).
i've been testing this column staggering and while it "feels" more comfortable it also is quite different to use.
I'm not sure what you mean. If you are trying to replicate the Truly Ergonomic layout by relabelling a conventional one, you can't. The staggering on a normal keyboard is not symmetrical. E.g. from J to U is 3/16" inwards, but F to T is 9/16" inwards.
Normal keyboards make no sense. Not only is the stagger different for each hand, the path each finger has to travel is not even a straight line.
Nevertheless, since learning to touch type, I find the ,./ keys easy to hit with the correct fingers, and I expect the same to be true of the ZXC keys on a correctly laid out board (like yours or the Truly Ergo) after some practice.
this might also be the issue for ppl who have switched over to the kinesis/maltron since they use the same type of column staggering as well. (at least i kept on thinking this when i was prototyping)
kinesis looks like straight down (curved) columns.
It does. Aside from a bit of a stagger down on the primary pinky column. Perhaps I'm misunderstanding you, but when you said they have staggered columns, I pictured something like the TrulyErogomic keyboard (columns staggered up and down from each other).
I think the terminology is getting a bit confusing. The TE board is actually not staggered (left-to-right) like a normal keyboard is. So rather than referring to the staggering, I think we should be referring to non-staggering.Show Image(http://www.trulyergonomic.com/images/Symmetrical_Ergonomic_Keyboard_symmetric.jpg)
kinesis looks like straight down (curved) columns.
Shift is used to "shift" up to the next set of symbols, while Caps Lock is only used for inversing Alphabetic Symbols.
Shift, at least in Linux is very different handling that say Caps Lock.
Shift is used to "shift" up to the next set of symbols, while Caps Lock is only used for inversing Alphabetic Symbols.
But when you use a conventional keyboard day after day, you have a high risk of getting CTS or RSI as anyone can develop these conditions through repetitive typing and the use of conventional keyboards.
MAKE YOURSELF SAFE with a Truly Ergonomic Keyboard!
Welcome to geekhack, and...
There is now compelling evidence that you don't know what you're talking about :)
I'm quite sure these things are not imaginary or fabricated.
How about you actually read Sarno's books? :) I think he knows what he's talking about, having successfully treated over ten thousand patients at the Rusk Institute by educating them on his beliefs of a psychological and emotional basis to their pain and symptoms.
or is he saying ergonomics is bs?
cuz that'd be like saying the NES controller was the best controller ever made with all it's rectangleness.
Fair enough. I have, however, known more than enough people (am related to some, in fact) who have developed pain in joints that were used for the same repetitive motions as part of their jobs/careers, for years.The books explain it all.
There may be psychological "RSI" diseases...but there are real ones too. It's impossible to disprove something that is true.
so give a tl:dr versionIt's quite involved.
whats considered poor ergonomics?It's subjective. The point is that you should not think of typing ergonomics as a matter of health, only comfort and efficiency.
if something that is ergonomic becomes poor ergonomic then i'd believe it is no longer ergonomic.Yeah...
sort of like treating this as a phantom limb? where ppl think that they still have a arm(even tho it got amputated) and wake up hurting cuz of it?
if something that is ergonomic becomes poor ergonomic then i'd believe it is no longer ergonomic.
It's subjective. The point is that you should not think of typing ergonomics as a matter of health, only comfort and efficiency.
am i the only one getting confused here? ergonomics and comfort and efficiency go hand in hand or one can mean the other.
if i'm comfortable at my desk then i'm sure as hell healthy as well.
i think we need a better tl:dr cuz it sounds like you got a messed up version of someone elses tl:dr and your giving us an even worse version of an already tl:dr.
I am not against the keyboard itself, only the scarce tactics they use to raise interest. The more such "typing causes injury" claims float around, the more people will develop wrist pain as a TMS symptom; fear is a major ingredient.
I'll rehash: What's considered an "unergonomic" keyboard or posture won't cause you injury or chronic pain. I am not offering any tl;dr version of dr. Sarno's works, only part of his conclusion, used against the FUD I quoted from the Truly Ergonomic site.
Having not read the books or the article I can only reply anecdotally.Correction: You think their pain is caused by poor ergonomics. In TMS theory, in short, their pain is caused by their subconcious mind finding wrist pain a good hiding place from unacceptable emotions. dr. Sarno's books go into greater detail as to how the limbic and autonomous nervous systems could be capable of producing such a change. It's not "all in your head"; it's a physical change with a psychological origin. Wrist pain is a good hiding place probably because they type a lot, have heard scary stories about "RSI" and fear it. Plenty of people who have believed their pain was caused by poor ergonomics can, after being cured by dr. Sarno's works, once again type on any keyboard in any unergonomic posture they want without any pain.
I'm a professional software designer, and I've seen many co-workers get chronic pain (and some injuries) from poor ergonomics in the work environment.
Since many of them don't think about ergonomics enough to do anything about it, it's hard to believe that their issues are entirely psychosomatic.So because they don't care about ergonomics much, that must be the cause of their pain?
Yeah, ergonomics exist and are good for comfort and efficiency, but are not mandatory for avoiding chronic pain like some people claim.
In TMS theory, in short, their pain is caused by their subconcious mind finding wrist pain a good hiding place from unacceptable emotions. dr. Sarno's books go into greater detail as to how the limbic and autonomous nervous systems could be capable of producing such a change.
I can't believe you're saying that *all* ergonomics is imaginary. You're seriously saying that if I do repetitive work in an unhealthy posture while stressing the wrong muscles in the wrong way for hours and hours a day that it's going to have no effect? Really?It's going to cause temporary discomfort/strain that will heal fairly quickly, not a pain syndrome.
It's going to cause temporary discomfort/strain that will heal fairly quickly, not a pain syndrome.
Running or weight lifting for hours and hours - far more stressful and repetitive than typing can ever be - doesn't cause injury, so why should typing? And what does "wrong muscles" mean?
Books are dangerous. Think of the children!
Running or weight lifting for hours and hours - far more stressful and repetitive than typing can ever be - doesn't cause injury, so why should typing? And what does "wrong muscles" mean?
Unfortunately the pain is there for a reason, your body does not like something that you are doing (pinching nerves, wearing out cartilage, etc.).TMS theory says otherwise:
The RSI occurs, once all the "safety" in your body wears out, and even a small amount of movement will cause agony (grinding of bones, cutting off of nerves). Something like this takes years of proper recovery to heal (often impossible to bring back to 100%).
Yes, some keyboards that are "ergonomic" are a steaming pile of dog crap. But that doesn't mean all of the are.Never said that, I like good ergo boards :)
"Canadian High Tech" company (lol - what a oxymoron)
As a Canadian, I resent that. These guys are based in BC, which produces expert technology for getting high...
(On a more serious note, the city of Ottawa had a 6 Mbps digital network running over the cable TV system back in 1982. Network access was 8-10$/month. Ah, progress...)
I call bull****. DARPA net wasn't piped into private homes in 1982 unless your name was Mandelbroot, Sagan, or Feynman. Is that a 1992 typo, or was the content something other than "internet"?
Pre-orders made before December 12th have a delivery estimated for Q1 2011.Why am I not surprised?
Some people recommend experimenting to determine which keyboard puts the least amount of stress on painful nerves and muscles. But who has the money and time to test all of the keyboards out there, and design a better simpler solution? You guessed right, we do
[...] depending on the number of pre-orders which will allow us to cost-effectively manufacture a precise quantity of each keyboard model. This reduces our overall production and inventory costs and guarantees the manufacturing of required models. [...]
The latest from their website:
Why am I not surprised?
Pre-orders made after December 1st have a delivery date estimated for March 2011
When are pre-orders expected to be delivered?
Pre-orders made on or before November 30th, 2010 have a delivery date estimated for late January 2011.
Due to the number of pre-orders made on or before November 30th, 2010, pre-orders made on or after December 1st, 2010 have a delivery date estimated for March 2011. This is subject to change depending on the number of pre-orders which will allow us to cost-effectively manufacture a precise quantity of each keyboard model. This reduces our overall production and inventory costs and guarantees the manufacturing of required models.
they only accept paypal, at least pay will refund i guess, better use creditcard to pay through paypal just in case.
I assume paypal can only do a refund within 30days or 60 days?
Truly Ergenomic did a prom like 2 months ago for discount,
if any 1 put money at that time, then we hope them good luck.
I'm curious how many people here have pre-orders.
DIP or double DIP; the technical side of the Truly Ergonomic Keyboard
This information is for those who want to find out more about the technical and electronic side of the Truly Ergonomic Keyboard.
The Truly Ergonomic Keyboard is reprogrammable. Additionally, it has DIP switches to simplify changing the most common settings without the need to install any software. They will allow, amongst others, for changing key functionality between those required for different Operating Systems or able to reprogram the spacebars differently; possible, with the simple flip of a switch.
The Truly Ergonomic Keyboard PCB is designed using the MEGAWIN MG84FL54BD MCU. You can find more information about this MCU at the manufacturer's website; within, you will find links to its Technical Datasheet, and a Development Kit.
One of the DIP switches of the Truly Ergonomic Keyboard will be set as the Device Firmware Upgrade/Update (DFU); equivalent to the DFU-button in the MG84FL54B Development Kit:
DIP switch ON = firmware protected, does not allow to reprogram the firmware.
DIP switch OFF = allows firmware to be reprogrammed.
We will also have the MCU Hardware Lock disabled - not locked, which means that the firmware code is unlocked in hardware. And although we are not able to make any source code public, as it is the Intellectual Property of the corporation manufacturing our line of products, the above-mentioned Development Kit includes source code created by the MCU manufacturer for computer keyboards.
If the above information sounds too technical, we reiterate you only need additional software if you require reprogramming the keyboard’s behaviour. We ensure you can simply plug-in your Truly Ergonomic Keyboard without requiring to install any additional software to fully use and enjoy your Truly Ergonomic Keyboard.
Once I found out it would cost more for a case bottom than it would for a complete retail KB of the same size I stopped. You'll see that I'm not the only one since there's a 104key PCB project that fits a Filco case (see the Mods forum).Story of my life :)
104? You can get at least 116 keys onto it if you like =P Actually almost no-one seems to want a full size board. I think I scared my few potential customers away too, or they are just very busy at the moment.
You know, what would be really interesting is a split (2 freely movable halves) keyboard in symmetric stagger or matrix layout. Basically, a Kinesis, split in half, but instead of "bowls" for the keys, have a flat PCB on each side, in the same matrix layout.... and 2 or 4 extra keys added...