Truly Ergenomic

[Keymonger]

Dude, January is 2 months away...

The point is that it said December 2010. Now it's January. When December rolls by, then what? February 2011. They'll just keep on delaying and then one day, BAM! Canceled.

They've been updating the site quite a bit, by the way. It has a lot of stuff now, lol.

[Lanx]

The point is that it said December 2010. Now it's January. When December rolls by, then what? February 2011. They'll just keep on delaying and then one day, BAM! Canceled.

They've been updating the site quite a bit, by the way. It has a lot of stuff now, lol.

I hope if it is cancelled it's with refunds, can a company keep the monies off of pre-orders if the company folds or chapter 11? idk.

[muchadoaboutnothing]

I hope if it is cancelled it's with refunds, can a company keep the monies off of pre-orders if the company folds or chapter 11? idk.

Depends on the type of company. A corporation is legally an individual and thus absorbs most legal obligations when it fails (the debtors get the assets of the corporations). However, in cases where it can be proven the management did not act in a fashion that can be reasonably justified (e.x. cooking the books, something insanely against market trends/your own staff recommendations/sane thought), there is some legal right. The downside is that you get taxed twice on everything- corporate taxes on everything, then you get taxed again.

In most other scenarios, any and all partners or the sole proprietor faces unlimited liability for any or all debts.

As far as recovery of money goes, a chargeback would work in many instances if you paid via credit card. When Sunrocket VoIP collapsed, most people with pending time were able to chargeback and get a full refund on their credit cards.

This is under US law, but the chargeback thing applies to anyone from the US charged. As far as the liability of companies, I can't speak for Canadian law.

[CorreCorre]

January 2011?  I read early 2011. Which could be any date in 2011 ('early' is a pretty vague indication, right?)

When are pre-orders expected to be deliver

Pre-order delivery is estimated for Early 2011, subject to change due to number of pre-orders which allow us to cost-effectively manufacture a precise quantity of each keyboard model reducing overall production and inventory costs and guaranteeing the manufacturing of required models.

Can anybody translate what he is trying to say? I graduated in economics, but I don't get it. Anyone?

[Lanx]

Can anybody translate what he is trying to say? I graduated in economics, but I don't get it. Anyone?

probably marketing speak for "we're actually waiting for more orders so we'll keep pushing it out and not give a definitive date. We're doing this because we need these orders as proof to our "backers" that we have enough interest and these "backers" will continue to inject us with capital. It is not necessarily the fact that we cannot produce these units at reasonable cost, we probably can but an objective we have to meet is to garner enough interest to make this a feasable item to market."

[muchadoaboutnothing]

Can anybody translate what he is trying to say? I graduated in economics, but I don't get it. Anyone?

Pre-order delivery is estimated for Early 2011, subject to change due to number of pre-orders which allow us to cost-effectively manufacture a precise quantity of each keyboard model reducing overall production and inventory costs and guaranteeing the manufacturing of required models.

Dissect it down to:

subject to change due to number of pre-orders which allow us to cost-effectively manufacture a precise quantity of each keyboard model

There are setup costs involved. Just like getting one set of doubleshots from Signature Plastics costs $800, there are non-negligible setup costs to get one keyboard made. If they can't get enough orders before Jan 2011 for there to be enough orders to make distribute the fixed costs enough (where no or a small quantity of profit is made per keyboard), they'll delay production of the model.

reducing overall production and inventory costs

By getting preorders you guarantee the sale of a keyboard for every preorder. If you don't, you risk stocking an unpopular/unsellable model, and even if you can sell it you have to have somewhere to store them.

guaranteeing the manufacturing of required models.

Make sure you get enough orders for each model that you can actually afford to have the MX Brown, MX Blue, etc. model made at a feasible cost; otherwise, if a switch proves unpopular, cancel it and refund the preorders.

[Sam]

The point is that it said December 2010. Now it's January. When December rolls by, then what? February 2011. They'll just keep on delaying and then one day, BAM! Canceled.

They've been updating the site quite a bit, by the way. It has a lot of stuff now, lol.

I hate to break it to you, but if you read this thread, there's a link to an even earlier thread:
http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?t=8245#5
In reading that, it mentions their site at one point said delivery in Q2, 2010.  This delaying production seems to be their M.O. since day one.  I'd really like to see this keyboard be made because I'd like to test out this concept.  Unfortunately the company has done nothing to give me the slightest bit of confidence in their ability to make a product.  On the other hand, I do sympathize with anyone trying to make a startup work.  I know all about trying to manufacturer electronics as that is what I do professionally.  Designing something is less than half the battle.  Producing and marketing it is a lot more work and costs a lot more than your typical person realizes.  When the typical person has a great idea, they think only about that idea and designing it to the sample stage.  They give very little thought to all that's involved in getting it to market.  So my hope is that this is the case here and they had/have good intentions but simply underestimated the costs/difficulties in production and marketing, but will be able to overcome that given enough time.

[Keymonger]

I'm aware of it having been delayed before, but some things seem to have changed. The design wasn't definitive back then, and now they have gotten coverage from some websites like Discovery... it might be delayed some more, but I'd like to think things have been moving forward.

[vorter]

I hate ergonomic boards. They seem harder to use than regular KBs.

[Sam]

I hate ergonomic boards. They seem harder to use than regular KBs.

Maybe that's because nobody's made a well-designed ergonomic board yet, at least none that you've tried.  I'm in the same position as you.  All ergonomic boards I've tried have been horrible and worse than regular boards.  I doubt the Truly Ergonomic will be good enough for me to switch, but I do want one to test out their concept.  I've also never tried a DataHand, which I think might be to my liking, but they're no longer available new.  I'd also love to try the Kinesis and uTron, but I have serious doubts about both of them also (non-separable halves for the Kinesis, and small non-standard keycaps for the uTron).

I do really believe that a properly designed ergonomic board would be a big improvement over a standard keyboard if I can ever find one (or make my own), and if I spend the time to overcome the years of familiarity with the standard layout.

[vorter]

Maybe that's because nobody's made a well-designed ergonomic board yet, at least none that you've tried.  I'm in the same position as you.  All ergonomic boards I've tried have been horrible and worse than regular boards.  I doubt the Truly Ergonomic will be good enough for me to switch, but I do want one to test out their concept.  I've also never tried a DataHand, which I think might be to my liking, but they're no longer available new.  I'd also love to try the Kinesis and uTron, but I have serious doubts about both of them also (non-separable halves for the Kinesis, and small non-standard keycaps for the uTron).

I do really believe that a properly designed ergonomic board would be a big improvement over a standard keyboard if I can ever find one (or make my own), and if I spend the time to overcome the years of familiarity with the standard layout.

Yep, no design is better than the standard.

[Keymonger]

Yep, no design is better than the standard.

The standard keyboard layout, is the same layout of old 19th century typewriters. For Pete's sake, it's not even symmetrical. Regular keyboards have a beyond terrible design. The space bar is especially awful; it makes the bottom row virtually obsolete by taking up all the space. I don't type with 10 fingers. I type with 9. I always hit the space bar with my left thumb, so my right thumb just... sits there. In the mean time, hitting backspace and enter requires me to move from the home row. Why can't I choose to use my right thumb for enter and backspace? The only reason why we're stuck with such designs is because people are used to it. That's it. People are terrified of new things, especially when it comes to computers. Fear of a slightly different key arrangement, fear of a different layout.

If you think keyboards are good as they are, good for you. I believe there should be options for all. But for folks like me, there are hardly any options. The DataHand looks interesting, but it's like, what, $1,300? Kinesis Advantage, $300? uTRON, $500? Those are the only three keyboards that I know of that are mechanical and don't follow the idiotic staggered typewriter layout. Regular keyboards meanwhile cost $15, or $80 or so with mechanical switches. It's incredible that despite the omnipresence of computers, it is so arduous to find a keyboard designed as a primary computer interface. I recognize the keyboard as the primary interface, and there are no excuses for current designs to be so flawed. And it is an outrage that if people want something different, they'll have to break the bank just to overcome the obvious flaws of regular keyboards.

[Lanx]

And it is an outrage that if people want something different, they'll have to break the bank just to overcome the obvious flaws of regular keyboards.

Or make their own creation!

[msiegel]

Or make their own creation!

+1!

i'm using model f parts to make mine

[Rajagra]

their site at one point said delivery in Q2, 2010.

They weren't taking orders back then. Delays in availability aren't unusual even for the biggest companies. In fact it often seems to be the norm.

The latest change may not even affect orders already placed. I'm still hoping to get mine in December. They are no longer offering the discount for pre-ordering, so it doesn't look like they're desperate.

[Lanx]

I think i'll be finishing up my new ergo4k V2 before anyone receives their TE board. Which is saying something since mainly one of the reasons why i want to make a new V2 board is cuz of the talk about the staggering in this thread too!

[Sam]

+1!

i'm using model f parts to make mine

+2.  But for me it'll be beam springs if possible, if and when I get around to it.

[CorreCorre]

Pre-order delivery is estimated for Early 2011, subject to change due to number of pre-orders which allow us to cost-effectively manufacture a precise quantity of each keyboard model reducing overall production and inventory costs and guaranteeing the manufacturing of required models

Thanks forumers for interpreting this paragraph. I now read it as follows:

"We have so many pre-orders that we can mass produce. This will be cheaper, but it will take longer".

What this probably means in reality is this:

"We have very few pre-orders. Probably the whole project will be cancelled, but I give it one last shot."


Anyway, does he really believe in it? Come on man, take a mortgage, ask your granddaddy and neighbours to invest, put your savings in it and PRODUCE !!

[zefrer]

The delivery estimate is dependant on when you order. Pre-orders before November 5th are supposedly due to be delivered by Xmas.

Oh and it is probably a good idea to get used to a new layout first before you decide it's no good/too hard. I mean, how long did it take you to get used to the standard layout? What makes you think switching to a new layout is going to be easy and how is that a fault of the layout itself? Does it being hard to learn have anything to do with how good it is?

[Keymonger]

They're slowly adding updates to the website. Pic of keycaps:

[rantenki]

They're slowly adding updates to the website. Pic of keycaps:

Show Image

Looks like a higher profile DCS. Probably not signature then

[Lanx]

i've been testing this column staggering and while it "feels" more comfortable it also is quite different to use.

For me i've come to realize that my left side is completely borked.

i use my index for "c" (when it should be middle)
and i use middle for "x" when it should be middle.

i'm kinda getting used to rewiring my muscle memory to use middle for "c" but using ring for "x" is kinda impossible. actually to me it's almost like that bar trick where if you put your middle finger underneath your hand you can't move your ring finger. (at least x is rarely used).

[Keymonger]

but using ring for "x" is kinda impossible. actually to me it's almost like that bar trick where if you put your middle finger underneath your hand you can't move your ring finger. (at least x is rarely used).

Pro tip: move your hand to accommodate your ring finger. :wink:

[Lanx]

move it how?

[Rajagra]

i've been testing this column staggering and while it "feels" more comfortable it also is quite different to use.

I'm not sure what you mean. If you are trying to replicate the Truly Ergonomic layout by relabelling a conventional one, you can't. The staggering on a normal keyboard is not symmetrical. E.g. from J to U is 3/16" inwards, but F to T is 9/16" inwards.

Normal keyboards make no sense. Not only is the stagger different for each hand, the path each finger has to travel is not even a straight line.

[JBert]

He did create a non-angled keyboard by modding a numpad section as can be seen in his MS Ergo 4K v2 mod thread.

[Lanx]

I'm not sure what you mean. If you are trying to replicate the Truly Ergonomic layout by relabelling a conventional one, you can't. The staggering on a normal keyboard is not symmetrical. E.g. from J to U is 3/16" inwards, but F to T is 9/16" inwards.

Normal keyboards make no sense. Not only is the stagger different for each hand, the path each finger has to travel is not even a straight line.

like heck i can't!
http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:12439

[Rajagra]

In that case it sounds like the bad habits learned from normal keyboards are causing problems.

It's ironic that the right hand side (which is less bad than the left side on a conventional board) doesn't have letters below the middle, ring, and little fingers, so you don't really reap the rewards of the "correctness".

Nevertheless, since learning to touch type, I find the ,./ keys easy to hit with the correct fingers, and I expect the same to be true of the ZXC keys on a correctly laid out board (like yours or the Truly Ergo) after some practice.

[Lanx]

this might also be the issue for ppl who have switched over to the kinesis/maltron since they use the same type of column staggering as well. (at least i kept on thinking this when i was prototyping)

[Rajagra]

When I use my Typematrix board, which has strictly vertical columns, I'm mostly OK. The notable exceptions are the 1 key and the B key. I think because they normally require a little hand movement not just finger movement.

Incidentally the Typematrix has big Shift keys spanning the home row, much like the Truly. The one on the left is a joy to use. The one on the right less so because there is a key (') that you have to hop over to reach the right Shift. The Truly doesn't have that problem.

[Lanx]

hmmm vertical shift looks cool, i think i might incorporate that, still time to remod!

[HaaTa]

Nevertheless, since learning to touch type, I find the ,./ keys easy to hit with the correct fingers, and I expect the same to be true of the ZXC keys on a correctly laid out board (like yours or the Truly Ergo) after some practice.

Interesting, I also found myself using the correct fingers on the uTron as opposed to "standard" keyboards where I'd use alternate fingers due to the proximity of the keys.

[Zalusithix]

this might also be the issue for ppl who have switched over to the kinesis/maltron since they use the same type of column staggering as well. (at least i kept on thinking this when i was prototyping)

Neither the Kinesis nor the Maltron have column staggering. Well, the Kinesis does stagger the pinky column down a hair, but it's nothing like the variable staggering on the TE keyboard. Rather, they use angle and depth changes along the column to closer mimic the fingers' natural arcs.

[Lanx]

kinesis looks like straight down (curved) columns.

[Zalusithix]

kinesis looks like straight down (curved) columns.

It does. Aside from a bit of a stagger down on the primary pinky column. Perhaps I'm misunderstanding you, but when you said they have staggered columns, I pictured something like the TrulyErogomic keyboard (columns staggered up and down from each other).

[Lanx]

It does. Aside from a bit of a stagger down on the primary pinky column. Perhaps I'm misunderstanding you, but when you said they have staggered columns, I pictured something like the TrulyErogomic keyboard (columns staggered up and down from each other).

yea i keep forgetting the TE has that slight up and down column stagger, i really should just say columns. (i don't care for that slight up and down column stagger, doesn't seem to do anything except make an impossible mod lol)

[Sam]

I think the terminology is getting a bit confusing.  The TE board is actually not staggered (left-to-right) like a normal keyboard is.  So rather than referring to the staggering, I think we should be referring to non-staggering.

[Zalusithix]

I think the terminology is getting a bit confusing.  The TE board is actually not staggered (left-to-right) like a normal keyboard is.  So rather than referring to the staggering, I think we should be referring to non-staggering.

Show Image

That's not quite distinct enough though as staggering can refer to either row staggering or column staggering. The TE keyboard *is* staggered, but just not in the form that normal keyboards are. A truly non-staggered layout is effectively a matrix.

[hoggy]

kinesis looks like straight down (curved) columns.

...and the maltron...

[Lanx]

hmmm lets call the TE vertical column stagger while the kinesis/maltron has a curved 5x4 matrix?

[cbf123]

But the TE isn't actually staggered.  Each key is directly above the key below it.  It just looks staggered because the two grids of keys are at an angle relative to each other.

I think they missed an ergonomics opportunity though.  When I straighten out my fingers they sort of naturally spread out.  This makes me think that keys in the upper rows should be slightly wider than keys in the lower rows.  This would lead to a sort of fan-shaped spread of keys for each hand.  Probably too expensive to make nonstandard sizes of keys...

[Lanx]

TE is staggered like middle finger area is highest then sorta pyramids down, at least that's what the render shows.

[HaaTa]

Hmm, what's the classification of this then:

[Lanx]

i would classify that as centered staggered.
since the staggering, staggers towards the center of the keyboard.

[JBert]

I'd call it symmetric diagonal staggering.

[Keymonger]

By the way I just noticed something. Why is it that Shift+Shift doesn't do a function similar to Caps Lock? A seperate Caps Lock seems unnecessary therefore... also, why is it that Caps Lock doesn't do anything on the number row, even though Shift does work as a modifier there?

[HaaTa]

Shift, at least in Linux is very different handling that say Caps Lock.

Shift is used to "shift" up to the next set of symbols, while Caps Lock is only used for inversing Alphabetic Symbols.

NumLock is very similar.

[woody]

Shift is used to "shift" up to the next set of symbols, while Caps Lock is only used for inversing Alphabetic Symbols.

This. And I have used keyboard where Lock changes numbers' row - you definitely don't want that.

[HaaTa]

Eww.
I guess they were using "Shift-Lock" rather than CapsLock.

For an interesting tidbit of info, a "-Latch" (e.g. Shift-Latch) is the usual term for "Sticky Keys". This is useful when you want to let go of the shift key and still want the next key you press shifted (but not the others afterwards).

[Keymonger]

Shift, at least in Linux is very different handling that say Caps Lock.

Shift is used to "shift" up to the next set of symbols, while Caps Lock is only used for inversing Alphabetic Symbols.

Well, yeah. But what I'm saying is, why is Shift+Shift not a lock? You could have Shift Lock behave like a Caps Lock. I'm saying you could have Caps Lock enabled just by pressing both Shift keys at the same time. Shift+Shift doesn't do anything and that seems like a waste.