Author Topic: Truly Ergenomic  (Read 56694 times)

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Offline Konrad

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« Reply #50 on: Wed, 06 October 2010, 00:30:15 »
It occurs to me that you people with the left-hand issues might in fact all be right-handed?

Offline Lanx

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« Reply #51 on: Wed, 06 October 2010, 00:30:43 »
Quote from: Konrad;230313

Show Image


even Data lost on the first round.

Offline Rajagra

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« Reply #52 on: Wed, 06 October 2010, 00:42:04 »
Quote from: Lanx;230323
even Data lost on the first round.


Nobody out-types webwit!

Offline CaptainKirk

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« Reply #53 on: Wed, 06 October 2010, 04:13:20 »
Quote from: Rajagra;151765
That's exactly what I thought when I first saw it. Those keys could be moved down a little to separate them from the main typing keys.

But the more I think about it, the more I suspect it wouldn't be a problem. You never hit space when you aim for C or V on a standard keyboard, do you? Maybe with practice, those keys would be in the ideal place - very easy to reach.  I really want to try one of these out.


You don't hit space when you type C, but the issue here is that your palm may bump into the down arrow when you type an 8 and the same issue with 2 key. In fact if you rest your palms on the table or the palm rest, I don't see how you could NOT have that problem.

I use a Kinesis Freestyle, for many moons now, and I still on occasion bump the left Ctrl key when I type a P. I am hoping to get an Advantage when I have some money. :)

Anyhow I think the arrows/page keys are for sure problematic--to get to the 2 your finger and hand must arch above PgDwn,PgUp,X,S,W. Seems like quite a stretch to me--and I have big hands. :)

Offline Lanx

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« Reply #54 on: Wed, 06 October 2010, 07:39:17 »
i agree, here's a pic i took of my normal hand resting position on my modified ergo 4k (since they seem to compare this keyboard to the ergo 4k a lot)





you'd be resting your lower pinky side on button basically, it's too long, I'm 5'10 and i think i have med hands (i can fit med glove sometimes i like large) but i don't think i could read that far, and this is in the negative slope position they are proposing.

Offline Keymonger

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« Reply #55 on: Wed, 06 October 2010, 14:57:32 »
The design is very interesting. It's beyond me why keyboards are still asymmetrical. I'm in no hurry to get a new keyboard, so I'll patiently observe how this new keyboard will be received by the connoisseurs. If it's any good, I still may not get one because I don't dig black keyboards at all... white with blank keys would be godly.

Offline Konrad

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« Reply #56 on: Wed, 06 October 2010, 16:09:08 »
There's no way I'd be able to type on a non-standard crazy ergoboard with blank caps, lol.
 
I'm still struggling to convert my brain/fingers to colemak, I'm consistently ~60wpm now, not too bad but more to go.

Offline JBert

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« Reply #57 on: Thu, 07 October 2010, 14:05:44 »
Who's gone be a guinea pig?
IBM Model F XT + Soarer's USB Converter || Cherry G80-3000/Clears

The storage list:
IBM Model F AT || Cherry G80-3000/Blues || Compaq MX11800 (Cherry brown, bizarre layout) || IBM KB-8923 (model M-style RD) || G81-3010 Hxx || BTC 5100C || G81-3000 Sxx || Atari keyboard (?)


Currently ignored by: nobody?

Disclaimer: we don\'t help you save money on [strike]keyboards[/strike] hardware, rather we make you feel less bad about your expense.
[/SIZE]

Offline Konrad

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« Reply #58 on: Thu, 07 October 2010, 19:56:25 »
Not me, I avoid buying vapour.  And US$169 (plus $39 S/H) for a gimmick board, holy **** nope.  There are less expensive options for ergonomics and for cherries.
 
I nominate Ripster.  It's about time he paid Nigeria for his plaintain recipe.

Offline Lanx

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« Reply #59 on: Thu, 07 October 2010, 21:09:56 »
$40 for shipping? what the?... is it being shipped from the moon?

Offline Konrad

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« Reply #60 on: Thu, 07 October 2010, 21:31:35 »
From Nigeria? Y'know, past all those Somalian pirates?
 
For USD$208 - equivalent to about ₦31,500 (Nigerian Nairas) - I could buy a Deck Legend, or a Logitech G19, or all sorts of stuff from eBay or GH. Or just buy all the switches and an MCU and build my own in any (ergonomic/custom) form fact I like, lol.

Offline WhiteRice

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« Reply #61 on: Thu, 07 October 2010, 21:34:23 »
Quote from: Lanx;231114
$40 for shipping? what the?... is it being shipped from the moon?

lol good one

Offline Sam

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« Reply #62 on: Thu, 07 October 2010, 22:16:12 »
Quote from: Konrad;231124
From Nigeria? Y'know, past all those Somalian pirates?
 
For USD$208 - equivalent to about ₦31,500 (Nigerian Nairas) - I could buy a Deck Legend, or a Logitech G19, or all sorts of stuff from eBay or GH. Or just buy all the switches and an MCU and build my own in any (ergonomic/custom) form fact I like, lol.


For me, I'd simply like to try that layout first to see what I think of it.  I wouldn't be so concerned about the money aspect, as my time necessary to build something to test it out is much more valuable than I'd spend on the keyboard, even after paying for some excessive shipping charge.  BTW, I think the price goes up to $199 + shipping next week.

Anyways, think I'll wait for another guinea pig to buy it and comment, then if they don't like it and want to sell it cheap, I'll pick it up for some testing.  I just don't have enough faith in this not being some vaporware.

After reading comments on GH though over the past few months, I've come to the conclusion that there will never be a keyboard to please everyone.  Probably never even one to please the majority.  There's simply too many differences of opinion.  So ultimately, I've got to simply try out various formats, various keys, and decide for myself what works best, then make my own custom board suiting perfectly to me, even if nobody else likes it.  Trying though to decide what is the perfect format is the hard part as there's so many variables involved.

Offline Konrad

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« Reply #63 on: Thu, 07 October 2010, 22:46:58 »
Quote from: Sam
After reading comments on GH though over the past few months, I've come to the conclusion that there will never be a keyboard to please everyone. Probably never even one to please the majority.
Hole in one!
 
The keyboard/mouse are the interface between the Machine and the Human.  The Human - being an organic thing - is flawed, variable, irregular.  Each Human requires a unique interface and calibration to achieve optimum data throughput.
 
It's obvious, natural, and intuitive that an obvious, natural, and intuitive interface would serve best.  But most people just don't think about keyboards, some learn to type and they all just use what they're given.  GHers of course are keyboard nerds, so all the newest bestest (and retro-est) keyboard trends will appear here first, lol.

Offline iMav

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« Reply #64 on: Thu, 07 October 2010, 23:21:26 »
Quote from: Sam;231151
After reading comments on GH though over the past few months, I've come to the conclusion that there will never be a keyboard to please everyone..
If there was, there would be no need for geekhack.  Just a static link to where you could buy this holy grail of keyboards.  :)

Offline Sam

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« Reply #65 on: Thu, 07 October 2010, 23:39:36 »
Quote from: iMav;231183
If there was, there would be no need for geekhack.  Just a static link to where you could buy this holy grail of keyboards.  :)


Very true!

Offline Rajagra

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« Reply #66 on: Fri, 08 October 2010, 00:06:11 »
Quote from: Lanx;231114
$40 for shipping? what the?... is it being shipped from the moon?


That's international shipping. To the U.S. it's $19 USD, to Canada it's $19 CAD.

Offline Konrad

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« Reply #67 on: Fri, 08 October 2010, 00:23:42 »
Prices shown on their page - $169 ($199 after 12Oct2010), "Shipping and Handling is $39.00 USD".
 
If you order, then PayPal does indeed charge $169+$39=$208.
 
lol, there's little substantial difference between US and CDN funds at this time, conversion rates hover around par. $208 USD = $211 CDN.

Offline Rajagra

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« Reply #68 on: Fri, 08 October 2010, 00:28:29 »
The box on that page has tabs at the top to select location. Defaults to international. Not a great design, took me a while to see it.

[strike]Right now I'm trying to work out where the Windows keys are[/strike]. And Scroll Lock and Break. The model numbers (104/5 etc.) suggest they work as full MF keyboards so they should be there somewhere. They use a layer-shift key for multimedia functions etc, so there's no excuse for missing anything out.

ZOMG!

Quote
Programmability

For those who require special functionality, all keys are reprogrammable. This means that you have the option to simply plug-in the keyboard and use it with the language of your preference without the need to install any software, or have the option to change any required keys for the letters or symbols of your preference using simple software, including both spacebars where each spacebar can have its own functionality.

Additionally, the combination of the Super key  and the F1-F12 keys can send special functions like volume up or volume down, or can be set to launch specific applications of your preference. The software also allows choosing from available layouts and templates, then changing required functionality and saving them for later use.

Macros will be available by using a combination of software and hardware, and you will be able to change these as many times as required without the need to reboot the computer.


I think this just made my mind up. Now I just need to decide whether to get one of the exotic layouts with extra keys.
« Last Edit: Fri, 08 October 2010, 00:44:55 by Rajagra »

Offline Keymonger

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« Reply #69 on: Fri, 08 October 2010, 08:50:12 »
Ummm, holy cow. If this programmable key thing is the real deal, I'll get it. But I'm concerned it's vapor-ware too... I mean you never know... plus it's a lot of money for something no one has tried.
« Last Edit: Fri, 08 October 2010, 09:24:28 by Keymonger »

Offline jpc

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« Reply #70 on: Fri, 08 October 2010, 09:07:29 »
Quote from: iMav;231183
If there was, there would be no need for geekhack.  Just a static link to where you could buy this holy grail of keyboards.  :)



This is close right?

RSI prevention recipe:[/B] Kinesis Contoured, Colemak layout, touch typing, Contour Design Rollermouse,  Logitech TrackMan Wheel, Logitech m570 trackball, "workrave" break timer software, "awesome" window manager, tenkeyless boards, cherry browns, Wang 724 with "ghetto green" ALPS, standing desk and/or comfy adjustable chairs, stress reduction, computer time reduction.

Fun non-ergonomic things: bolt modded Model M Space Saving Keyboards with new springs, Kensington Expert Mouse v7, Unicomp Endurapro, Northgates

Offline itlnstln

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« Reply #71 on: Fri, 08 October 2010, 09:11:29 »
I just checked out this thread after ignoring for awhile, and I must say that I am pretty excited about this.  I originally came to GH looking for an ergonomic mechanical 'board, and this one looks awesome.  It's pretty much everything I want in a keyboard.  Split layout, Cherry browns, compact, embedded numpad, and a built-in (but removable) wrist rest.  If this isn't vaporware, it'll be awesome.


Offline Rajagra

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« Reply #72 on: Mon, 11 October 2010, 17:39:31 »
Well I've taken the plunge and pre-ordered the English International - Model 105 Option B. As tempted as I was by the 109 models with their extra keys, I like the 'purity' of the US/ISO equivalents with their neat stack of Alt/Ctrl/Shift keys. In any case the key between the space bars is a duplicate Del key, and I expect to reprogram that as my AutoHotkey modifier. (Although this layout is so good I may no longer need my AHK script!)

They have improved the layout since when I first checked them out. The shift keys are on the home row, just one key stretch away from the pinkie. Brilliant!


Offline zefrer

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« Reply #73 on: Mon, 11 October 2010, 18:01:32 »
Also want to see how it works on linux, but yeah I'd be interested if it actually ships.

Offline Arc'xer

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« Reply #74 on: Mon, 11 October 2010, 19:21:52 »
Ran into a post on some site somebody wanting this keyboard but with topre switches. That'll actually be an interesting combination, albeit expensive(maybe not  μTron cost but still).

Though I never bothered with ergonomic keyboards, I've noticed I tend to kinda type spastically over the keyboard kinda moving around a lot not really staying in place per se; guess that's why I found the kinesis interesting since your forced yourself to stay separated.

Offline zefrer

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« Reply #75 on: Tue, 12 October 2010, 07:41:51 »
Quote from: Arc'xer;232686

Though I never bothered with ergonomic keyboards, I've noticed I tend to kinda type spastically over the keyboard kinda moving around a lot not really staying in place per se; guess that's why I found the kinesis interesting since your forced yourself to stay separated.


That's how I got into ergonomic keyboards - tried one for a week, comfort when typing was great, typing skill kept improving because of the hand separation. Been using ergonomic keyboards ever since. FYI you are still better off moving your hands, ie not resting your palms on the keyboard/wrist pad but hovering just above so your hands can move slightly over their own area, while not moving across to the other hands' area obviously.

Offline Keymonger

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« Reply #76 on: Tue, 12 October 2010, 13:51:21 »
I wanted to order it too but I guess it's too late now for the discount. Although the page hasn't changed, it still says before the 12th... but it's the 12th today. What am I going to do!?!?

Offline rantenki

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« Reply #77 on: Tue, 12 October 2010, 15:54:05 »
Quote from: Keymonger;232972
I wanted to order it too but I guess it's too late now for the discount. Although the page hasn't changed, it still says before the 12th... but it's the 12th today. What am I going to do!?!?


Buy it FAST. I think they meant before/during.

Also, before the 12th, that page said before the 7th, then before the 30th (of sept). I think they are going to hold out until their production run is full.

Offline Konrad

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« Reply #78 on: Tue, 12 October 2010, 17:16:28 »
I'm always automatically skeptical about limited-time-offer sales pressure. The harder the advertiser/salesman tries to push a product in my face, the more suspicious I become.
 
"Buy it now because it'll go up in price soon!", "but for a limited time - today only - it's on sale at a special discount", "buy it now, before they're all gone!", etc.
 
If demand for the product is higher than supply, it's selling like crazy, and it's an unbelievably fantastic bargain at this price ... why don't they increase the supply or bump the price (profit) up a notch? It's not like manufacturers and vendors are all magnanimous or running a charity. And it's not like they'll say "ah, well we finally sold all 10,000 units, sorry people there's no more because we're moving on to another product".
 
I know advertisers are trying to hit you where you're psychologically weak, hype up your interest in the product ... but do they really have to make it so obvious? Does this **** actually work often enough on consumer sheep that they don't even have to think of new tactics?

Offline Keymonger

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« Reply #79 on: Tue, 12 October 2010, 18:16:02 »
Quote from: Konrad;233016
I'm always automatically skeptical about limited-time-offer sales pressure. The harder the advertiser/salesman tries to push a product in my face, the more suspicious I become.
 
"Buy it now because it'll go up in price soon!", "but for a limited time - today only - it's on sale at a special discount", "buy it now, before they're all gone!", etc.
 
If demand for the product is higher than supply, it's selling like crazy, and it's an unbelievably fantastic bargain at this price ... why don't they increase the supply or bump the price (profit) up a notch? It's not like manufacturers and vendors are all magnanimous or running a charity. And it's not like they'll say "ah, well we finally sold all 10,000 units, sorry people there's no more because we're moving on to another product".
 
I know advertisers are trying to hit you where you're psychologically weak, hype up your interest in the product ... but do they really have to make it so obvious? Does this **** actually work often enough on consumer sheep that they don't even have to think of new tactics?

Well in this case I think it has something to do with the fact that you're dealing with a new company that's selling stuff, it's easier if you know upfront people wanna buy your stuff.

Offline Konrad

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« Reply #80 on: Wed, 13 October 2010, 02:07:49 »
You could be right, Keymonger.
 
But I'm still skeptical. Why else list the price per unit as $169.99 now and $199.99 in a couple weeks? That's obvious pressure tactics.
 
If they were really feeling out the market they'd do much better issuing limited-time rebates and coupons, same overall effect really (if less obvious), plus they'd also be able to track where their buyers/market is coming from a little more accurately.

Offline Parak

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« Reply #81 on: Wed, 13 October 2010, 02:13:08 »
The reviews section makes me giggle.

Offline Rajagra

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« Reply #82 on: Wed, 13 October 2010, 04:18:06 »
Now it says the 15th. I suspect it may never go up to the list price, but I wanted to make sure I got December delivery (which is also dependent on order date.) Of course demand may be low enough that that may not be an issue.

I hope they are successful with this. But if by any chance there's only one production run I want to be one of the people to get one. I was very tempted to order 2 or 3, but can't really afford to right now.

Offline zefrer

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« Reply #83 on: Wed, 13 October 2010, 08:58:29 »
Seeing as there's only two companies making mechanical ergonomic keyboards (currently making, that I know of), I too hope they ship, it is good and they keep producing.

Offline CaptainKirk

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« Reply #84 on: Wed, 13 October 2010, 09:01:33 »
Quote from: Konrad;233016

I know advertisers are trying to hit you where you're psychologically weak, hype up your interest in the product ... but do they really have to make it so obvious? Does this **** actually work often enough on consumer sheep that they don't even have to think of new tactics?


Ummm, yes. We are geeks, don't forget. The professional marketers, it seems, DO realize that the general public are sheep, not geeks.

Offline Sam

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« Reply #85 on: Wed, 13 October 2010, 18:36:14 »
One thing to keep in mind is that tooling costs for designing a new keyboard can be very expensive.  Many people look at a cheap plastic case and the other components and don't realize just how expensive it can be per keyboard if you're only making a limited number.  If you're selling hundreds of thousands or millions of keyboards, the tooling costs are very small per unit.  For the type of quantities for a keyboard like this, a very large percent of the manufacturing cost per unit is in the initial tooling setup.

Offline Rajagra

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« Reply #86 on: Wed, 13 October 2010, 19:45:05 »
Quote from: ripster;233512
That WebWit.  What a joker!


He's just pissed that they used a photo of him without permission.


Offline rantenki

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« Reply #87 on: Wed, 13 October 2010, 22:40:42 »
Quote from: ripster;233512
That WebWit.  What a joker!


Yeah, the obviously fabricated reviews were the straw that broke the camel's back for me, and the reason I decided not to order.

Well, that and the CNC machine in the basement (currently building a new keyboard housing).

Offline Konrad

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« Reply #88 on: Thu, 14 October 2010, 05:07:36 »
Quote from: ripster
Show Image
To be honest, I like the general form factor of all three sub-healthy keyboards (especially the top one).  I've tried and personally never liked split ergos before, so all the other keyboards in that pic would displease me.
 
I know a few people who swear by their ergos.  They type fast.  They're happy.  Just not for me.

Offline Keymonger

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« Reply #89 on: Thu, 14 October 2010, 06:11:51 »
Quote from: rantenki;233615
Yeah, the obviously fabricated reviews were the straw that broke the camel's back for me, and the reason I decided not to order.

It says on the same page:
Quote
During such period, we have manufactured mockups and prototypes as well as fully working prototypes, and during such period as well have had real people test such prototypes making sure we are able to bring you a truly ergonomic keyboard. These individuals are the ones that provided the above reviews and testimonials towards our design.


But anyways. I just caved in and bought the blank Model 105B.

Offline hoggy

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« Reply #90 on: Thu, 14 October 2010, 15:03:53 »
I'm tempted, but I don't really want to run the risk in case it all folds...

Once they've proven themselves - that they ship and the reviews are good - I'm getting one - but not until then.
GH Ergonomic Guide (in progress)
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=54680.0

Offline CodeChef

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« Reply #91 on: Thu, 14 October 2010, 17:48:05 »
lmao, oh wow. Good for Sooty.
[sigpic][/sigpic]

Offline muchadoaboutnothing

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« Reply #92 on: Thu, 14 October 2010, 18:31:33 »
Quote from: Keymonger;233667
It says on the same page:


It's not the fact that there ARE reviews, it's the wording. It's clearly the same guy making them all up. The writing style is quite frankly baffling. Capitalization is wrong, grammar is sometimes wrong, misspellings ("I am amaze with the simplicity of its unique design."). The writing style is consistently bad for every review.

Plus, science. All of the female named reviewers reviews judged together:

Offline WhiteRice

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« Reply #93 on: Thu, 14 October 2010, 19:01:36 »
Quote from: ripster;233942
Maybe it's the language barrier?  It's a Canadian company after all.
xD

Offline rantenki

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« Reply #94 on: Thu, 14 October 2010, 21:39:30 »
Quote from: ripster;233942
Maybe it's the language barrier?  It's a Canadian company after all.

Totally valid actually; lots of _wealthy_ chinese immigrants around there. The WHOIS records show the headquarters being in a place that costs about 10,000 of those keyboards for the average house.

Sadly, I am not kidding!

Offline Konrad

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« Reply #95 on: Fri, 15 October 2010, 06:42:17 »
Oui, oui ... c'est un jeune clavier d'un ordinateur.
 
Bad language is a big danger sign when you're looking at an "anti-spyware" site that's trying to push a trojan spyware installer; the bigger hint is the lack of an online shopping cart, or a link that's always broken.  What kind of company wouldn't make damned sure they can actually get paid for their product?
 
There's plenty of sites from prominent Asian companies which just look utterly horrible and amateurish in English, often little more than a "contact us" page.  This site might just be one of that sort.  I wonder if they're aware of this geekhack thread.

Offline rantenki

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« Reply #96 on: Fri, 15 October 2010, 21:10:42 »
Quote from: Konrad;234129
There's plenty of sites from prominent Asian companies which just look utterly horrible and amateurish in English, often little more than a "contact us" page.  This site might just be one of that sort.  I wonder if they're aware of this geekhack thread.


I did mention it when I mailed them, but they responded with what looked like broilerplate.

Offline HaaTa

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« Reply #97 on: Fri, 15 October 2010, 21:58:15 »
I dunno, lots of the good ideas look like they came from the μTRON keyboard, but I dunno. At least the one's they're trying to sell you on at least: arrow keys, ergonomics, key alignment, closer to the mouse (actually I can put the trackball between the sides of the μTRON so it's already better :P).

Left:


Right:


On the plus side, it should be more available, about 1/4 the price (that's if you're in Japan), and comes in multiple switch types (no Topres, smaller keys, reduce key travel, or multiple thumbs switches though).

If it ends up being decent I'll order one myself. I'd preorder, but cash is tight atm.

I like my thumb backspace so I'll be looking for the 109A layout.

Kiibohd

ALWAYS looking for cool and interesting switches
I take requests for making keyboard converters (i.e. *old keyboard* to USB).

Offline Rajagra

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« Reply #98 on: Sat, 16 October 2010, 03:02:33 »
Quote from: HaaTa;234511
I like my thumb backspace so I'll be looking for the 109A layout.


Don't forget it's programmable "including both spacebars where each spacebar can have its own functionality." I think that's how they can offer so many layouts. :thumb:

Offline Keymonger

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« Reply #99 on: Sat, 16 October 2010, 07:57:41 »
I wonder how it's programmable though. Do you use something like a tool to configure and then 'flash' the 'firmware'? I don't know of any keyboards that are fully programmable.