[Q] Is GH60 PCB's dimension exactly the same as PokerX's?

[GON]

Hi guys

I'd like to ask you a question.

That is....

Is GH60 PCB's dimension exactly the same as PokerX's?

I took a closer look at its mini USB connector and thought this connector is positioned a bit more inner than original PokerX's.
This is crucial, because if I make a really fitting tight housing for PokerX, the housing may not fit a GH60 PCB.

When it come to designing a housing, 1mm is not just 1mm. That can make a great difference hence sometimes results in compatibility issues.


P.S. I'm not sure whether what I though is right. I'd like to check it with a GH60 PCB at hand. But I don't think of anyone in Korea who might have it.
If someone can get me a .DWG file that shows the exact out-line and usb connector position, that will be enough for my work.

I don't mean my GON NS 38GT fits a GH60 PCB. I'm sure they are not compatible each other.

[komar007]

No, it's not. There are small differences here and there.
It's exactly 285mm x 94.6mm.
We haven't decided on the exact position of mounting holes yet though.

[WhiteFireDragon]

GON, the outer parameters are similar enough so that it can fit the plate and case. However, USB and standoff locations are still different for now. We're still working on these exact locations.

I distributed most of the GH60 prototype, and most are in the US. No one in Korea has one.

[GON]

No, it's not. There are small differences here and there.
It's exactly 285mm x 94.6mm.
We haven't decided on the exact position of mounting holes yet though.

Thanks, komar007.
If it is the exact measurement, I think PCB size itself has no problem.
The GH60 PCB is as the same size as the PokerX's or slightly smaller.

[Aranair]

thread-hijack: so waiting for one of this

[GON]

GON, the outer parameters are similar enough so that it can fit the plate and case. However, USB and standoff locations are still different for now. We're still working on these exact locations.

I distributed most of the GH60 prototype, and most are in the US. No one in Korea has one.

If GH60 PCBs has not enter into mass production, could you put its USB and tact switch at the same position as PokerX?
I think there must be a standard to solve subtle compatibility problems.
It would be good, I think, to have the original PokerX as the standard.

I will make a new GON NS housing that fits a PokerX PCB.

[elton5354]

That will be smart since over 700 GH60 PCBs will need a housing. You have a big market here!

How's the price though? Any estimates?

[GON]

That will be smart since over 700 GH60 PCBs will need a housing. You have a big market here!

How's the price though? Any estimates?

Pricing will be the same as GON NS38GT's--$150.

To make the usb position the same as PokerX's, this would be need.
I bought some of this connector for sampling, and came to know it has very good quality totally different from cheap low quality ones.

http://www.digikey.kr/product-detail/ko/UX60-MB-5S8/H2960CT-ND/597539

You will need a through hole fixing type to make the position the same as PokerX's.
I will apply this connector to my PCB that I'm designing these days.

I promise I too will make a 60% PCB that almost exactly matches the PokerX.

[WhiteFireDragon]

Yes, PCB is based off the poker PCB and case. However, when komar originally did the PCB's, he used standoff positions from the plastic case, which I found to be slightly off and does not perfectly line up with the PCB. Their plastic mold to make cases are off. This is where the discrepancy is. I took all my measurements using the PCB instead of the case, which should be more accurate for locations. Final GH60 PCB should have correct locations when we're done working this out, same with Poker PCB.

[GON]

Yes, PCB is based off the poker PCB and case. However, when komar originally did the PCB's, he used standoff positions from the plastic case, which I found to be slightly off and does not perfectly line up with the PCB. Their plastic mold to make cases are off. This is where the discrepancy is. I took all my measurements using the PCB instead of the case, which should be more accurate for locations. Final GH60 PCB should have correct locations when we're done working this out, same with Poker PCB.

To do so, the usb connector should be changed to ones as I linked above.
If you use SMD fixing type, the four smd lead will not allow you to have the same connector position as PokerX's.
(The USB connector should come out a little to be in the same position as PokerX's)

When 38GT PCBs were made in OTD, they measured the original housing too. This caused some problem...
I'd like you not to make the same mistake.

To be honest, I don't think this is developers' fault(OTD, GH...).
Rather, that is the fault of PokerX's developers.

The position of USB is not exactly middle of the two switches(ESC and 1).... very strange. No reason can be found to do so...
Not only the USB connector, the DIP switch is not posed in the middle of the two switches.
I don't think they had any "WORKMANSHIP of Perfection".

If I had designed PokerX, I would never have left them such a way.... awkward...


Then... is it OK that I believe what you told(you will fix the positions), and design a new housing for PokerX(in fact for GH60)?

[WhiteFireDragon]

THIS is the USB connector that we must use because the soldering is done at the factory. It must be SMD for reflowing, not through-hole like the ones found on KMACs or pokers.

Yes, komar and I noticed the the USB is not perfectly centered between the Esc and "1" switches. This will be adjusted before the final PCBs are ordered. Seeing how you guys on kbmania and OTD are perfectionists, I'm surprised you guys did not catch this off-center USB location when making your cases.

[GON]

THIS is the USB connector that we must use because the soldering is done at the factory. It must be SMD for reflowing, not through-hole like the ones found on KMACs or pokers.

Yes, komar and I noticed the the USB is not perfectly centered between the Esc and "1" switches. This will be adjusted before the final PCBs are ordered. Seeing how you guys on kbmania and OTD are perfectionists, I'm surprised you guys did not catch this off-center USB location when making your cases.

Well, I should correct that housing designers know the USB port's off-centeredness so they gave it some more space to the left and right of the USB connector-out hole, so Duck's housing and Plana's Housing all match original PokerXs, 38GTs and their own PCBs(Duck's). As for me, I have designed housings for PokerXs and 38GTs separately. I don't want to give redundant space...

KMAC series and Trik are also SMT soldered. The sellers or GB leaders all soldered the USB ports by themselves.

So... the conclusion is... GH60s will be slightly different from original PokerXs.
And GH60 need a dedicated housing if perfectly fitting ones wanted.



P.S. Would you ask the SMT factory whether the linked USB connectors cannot be SMT soldered?
I think it could be possible, because that type should also be soldered from the bottom of the PCB(where other parts are all soldered).
The connector's fixing leads are for through-holes(but can be soldered from the bottom), and leads for IO are SMD leads.
When I hand solder it, I don't flip the PCB, but solder at the same side.
If the connector's IO leads are for through hole, that will need a wave soldering, but the linked connectors' are not.
Asking would not cost money.

[GON]

I think it would be great if GH60s, original PokerXs and other PCBs to be developed later could share the same housing.

[komar007]

GON, could you tell me the coordinates of the USB connector which are perfect for your case?
I mean the horizontal position of the center and vertical position of the top edge with respect to the top-left mounting hole.
Please don't use positions referenced to the pcb edges, since they will be different, because the Poker PCB is weird. It's not centered in the case, even though the switches are. Our board will be centered.

[GON]

komar, as you told me, the dimension of PokerX is really weired--No Perfectionism can be Found.
What about setting a new standard, giving up making 100% same copy(I mean its physical dimension) of PokerX?

Even if you locate your USB in the middle of the ESC and 1, that can still fit the original PokerX's plastic housing with only a small bit of filing off the housing(USB Port hole, less than 0.9mm). And centering(between center-stemmed CapsL and A) the tact s/w of the GH60 will make no compatibility issues with DIP S/W hole of PokerX.
(As far as I know, most of the AL housings already have enough space for it. No mod is needed. I myself checked Duck's AL Poker housing(made in 2012), and Plana's AL Poker housing. I couldn't check AL housings made in China, sorry.)

Simple and precise positioning of the parts(usb and tact switch(Dip s/w for original Pokers) make it easy to design housings for it.
How simple it is if the USB positioned in the right middle of the two switches.

And plz seriously consider using DIP fixing type usb connectors(/w SMD IO lead) linked above.
This is especially important when designing acrylic housings for that PCB, if you use full SMD type usb connectors and so have to move the connector a bit(about 2mm) inwards, this 2mm makes real difference when designing housings, especially acrylic ones.
Acrylics are relatively cheap and easy enough for a private to design and make. I'm telling you this, because I really want to help GH members' joyful hobby life. If we make PCBs for members, it would be better to make it easy for them to design acrylic housing if possible.
(With usb positioned inwards, it's too hard to design beautiful usb connector-out.)

If you agree, I will send you exact physical dimension in CAD file.
(This is the dimension of the 38GT PCB that exactly centers. I will give you the out-line and the position of the USB connector and DIP s/w.)

Please give me your opinion.

[WhiteFireDragon]

The thing about making a new standard on USB and mounting positions, is that we won't be able to use old poker and pure cases. And if we design cases specifically for GH60 and future Korean 60% PCBs, then all existing pokers, pures, and future KBT keyboards will not be compatible with our cases. There are currently a lot of these pokers and pures out right now that could benefit from the cross-compatibility. I doubt KBT will change their standards on these positions. Some acrylic cases are already made in anticipation for GH60, and if we slightly shift USB location now, it may not be compatible with these old cases without mods.

I'm not sure what will be the best choice in this case.


As for your comment on USB connectors types, the one I linked has 2 pins to mount into the PCB. It shouldn't move during the soldering process at the factor. You mentioned that LZ and kmac guys solder the through-hole USB connector by hand, but I don't think we're looking forward to doing 700+, especially since it can be done at the fab.

I'll send you a PM, I don't fully understand every line you said. Language barrier :/

[WhiteFireDragon]

Here's the picture of the USB connecator I mentioned, it has two pins that lock in position on the PCB




Also, the USB connector that you linked must be available in China. They source the parts for the pick-and-place machine.

[GON]

The thing about making a new standard on USB and mounting positions, is that we won't be able to use old poker and pure cases. And if we design cases specifically for GH60 and future Korean 60% PCBs, then all existing pokers, pures, and future KBT keyboards will not be compatible with our cases. There are currently a lot of these pokers and pures out right now that could benefit from the cross-compatibility. I doubt KBT will change their standards on these positions. Some acrylic cases are already made in anticipation for GH60, and if we slightly shift USB location now, it may not be compatible with these old cases without mods.

I'm not sure what will be the best choice in this case.


As for your comment on USB connectors types, the one I linked has 2 pins to mount into the PCB. It shouldn't move during the soldering process at the factor. You mentioned that LZ and kmac guys solder the through-hole USB connector by hand, but I don't think we're looking forward to doing 700+, especially since it can be done at the fab.

I'll send you a PM, I don't fully understand every line you said. Language barrier :/

Just tell me what you don;t understand above. I will explain it again in another way.

Are you sure KBT will never change their weird USB position?

[GON]

The problem here is, I think, USB connector position of GH60 is not also exactly the same as that of PokerX.
If you make GH60 just as same as PokerX, 100% compatibility will be assured....
But now... it seems that the USB position is not the same nor easy for housing designing.

If you have exact position of USB and TACT SW of GH 60, would you send it to me?

I will now send komar007 my .DWG file that describes my PCB dimension.

[WhiteFireDragon]

I just looked at the DWG file you sent us. It basically just shows the USB and DIP switch locations are exactly centered between two switches. If I understand you correctly, this is how you want GH60 PCB to be?


You can find GH60 PCB and position of components HERE. You're right, currently it's not exactly like poker. But when the final PCB is done, I personally want it to have same positions like poker PCB (even if they're not symmetrical) for compatibility with cases. If we go with what you specified and come up with a new standard, that's not a bad choice but it's just harder for cases to fit perfectly. Although the USB might be able to move forward a tad to stick out a bit, maybe not as far as the ones seen on kmacs though.

[GON]

Yes the positions are where I want GH60 PCB to have its USB and Tact SW.

I think the same position as original PokerX is OK. I can make my cases that way, no problem.

But I wonder how you can put the USB connector exactly at the same position as PokerX USB connector's.
Do you have any solution with your 4-lead SMD connector? This seems to be hard to move outwards.
Because SMD connectors need more PCB width than through hole fixing types.

The width of projected part of the original PokerX would not be more than 9.5mm.
(I'm not sure because I don;t have PokerX at hand.)

Would you tell me your solution?

P.S. Could you give me a link for a Data Sheet for usb connectors you are gonna use for GH60s?

[komar007]

Yes the positions are where I want GH60 PCB to have its USB and Tact SW.

I think the same position as original PokerX is OK. I can make my cases that way, no problem.

But I wonder how you can put the USB connector exactly at the same position as PokerX USB connector's.
Do you have any solution with your 4-lead SMD connector? This seems to be hard to move outwards.
Because SMD connectors need more PCB width than through hole fixing types.

The width of projected part of the original PokerX would not be more than 9.5mm.
(I'm not sure because I don;t have PokerX at hand.)

Would you tell me your solution?

P.S. Could you give me a link for a Data Sheet for usb connectors you are gonna use for GH60s?

I'm considering moving the connector outwards a bit by extending the board in this place, like it's done in the poker.
Here is the datasheet of what I'm currently going to use:  MU24-05XXX-1(MINI USB 5P F SMT) MU24-05SN0-1.pdf (181.39 kB - downloaded 181 times.)

[GON]

I've check up the data sheet you attached.
I hope you could make it the same as PokerX's.

Would you show me the layout of the "USB area" when you have revised current artwork data?

[komar007]

I've sold my Poker. Could you tell me the exact distance between the top edge of the PCB and the top edge of the connector?

[GON]

I've sold my Poker. Could you tell me the exact distance between the top edge of the PCB and the top edge of the connector?

We've got a problem here...
I have no PokerX, either. 

[komar007]

Ok, we'll wait for someone else.

[WhiteFireDragon]

I'll give you those dimensions in the morning. They are from my poker and PURE. I just got a poker II also, so I'll verify that it's also the same.

I'm considering moving the connector outwards a bit by extending the board in this place, like it's done in the poker.

This will be a good idea. Acrylic and metal cases will be a lot thicker than stock plastic poker case, so it should stick out a tad for the USB cable to be plugged in easier, and for clearance. Here's a picture to show how far the PURE (bottom) and KMAC (top) USB connectors stick out. KMAC has a very far extension of the PCB since the metal cases are so thick, but I don't think we'll need it to "float" beyond the PCB like that.