Author Topic: [SOLVED] Leopold FC660C switch housing wobbles. What to do?  (Read 5466 times)

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Offline ileben

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[SOLVED] Leopold FC660C switch housing wobbles. What to do?
« on: Tue, 14 April 2015, 09:02:23 »
I bought a new Leopold FC660C today. After unpacking I noticed that the 'B' key had a weird rattle unlike other keys. I removed the key cap and found out that the switch housing (the black plastic around the plunger) had a loose fit on the plate. If I touch it, I can feel it wobbling, while the housing on other switches stays firmly put. You can see how the switch is attached to the board in this video
around the 7:50 mark. It looks like a quality control issue where some switches have a larger clip-to-base distance or the plate does not have exactly the same thickness everywhere, so some switches get a loose fit (I can notice a very tiny inconsistency on some other keys as well).

Now, I don't wanna return it, as I think another board could have the same problem on another key (also, I'm on a trip in Japan and I don't see myself communicating this to the people in the store as they seem to barely understand a couple of english words). I'm looking for some ideas to fix this myself.

What I'm thinking is just using super glue with a small brush and just put a tiny bit where the housing clip meets the plate, or maybe on the four corners of the housing. Of course this might cause problems if I ever want to remove the housing, but as the video points out, detaching it doesn't really look viable anyway.

Do you guys have any other ideas and do you see any potential problems with my solution?

Thanks.

P.S. Being able to actually put my hands on any keyboard in the store here in Japan was pretty fricken awesome. Our stores in Australia keep everything in the boxes or behind a glass. Throughout this trip I've bought a Filco MJ2, this Leo FC660C and a Realforce 87u 55g uniform. Thank god my trip is ending in a few days, my wallet is weeping :)
« Last Edit: Sat, 01 August 2015, 02:15:58 by ileben »
RF 87 55g (silenced) | FC660C (silenced) | Unicomp Ultra Classic | Filco MJ2 Brown | Matias Mini Quiet Pro

Offline ileben

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Re: Leopold FC660C switch housing wobbles. What to do?
« Reply #1 on: Wed, 15 April 2015, 04:48:10 »
No opinions on this? There seems to be a lot of people here who have tried this keyboard at some point, but all I could find is claims of it's great build quality. Has anyone ever had any problems or inconsistency with the switches on it?
RF 87 55g (silenced) | FC660C (silenced) | Unicomp Ultra Classic | Filco MJ2 Brown | Matias Mini Quiet Pro

Offline SpAmRaY

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Re: Leopold FC660C switch housing wobbles. What to do?
« Reply #2 on: Wed, 15 April 2015, 07:19:52 »
I've seen people suggest putting lube around the opening in the plate to help stabilize the housing. Yours sounds like it could be a defect however.

Offline spiceBar

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Re: Leopold FC660C switch housing wobbles. What to do?
« Reply #3 on: Wed, 15 April 2015, 09:00:58 »
No opinions on this? There seems to be a lot of people here who have tried this keyboard at some point, but all I could find is claims of it's great build quality. Has anyone ever had any problems or inconsistency with the switches on it?

I would strongly advise against under SuperGlue. It will most probably attack the plastic housing.

The first thing you can try is to tighten the screws that hold the PCB and the metal plate together.

If they are loose, it will be obvious. If they are not, trying to tighten them more must be done with care, because you can easily break or damage the head of the screw, which would be a major problem when/if you need to remove that screw late. These screws are really easy to damage, and then it's almost impossible to remove them.

If there is no loose screw, you will need to completely disassemble the keyboard and to put thick grease between the switch housing and the metal plate, like this:

97361-0



In the picture above you can see that I have applied grease on the metal plate, around the hole of the large key.


However, disassembling the keyboard is a pain. It's not really difficult, you just need to be careful, but there are 25 screws to remove, so it's no fun.

You can read my guide for information on how to disassemble it. The guide has been written for people who want to silence the keyboard, and it has a lot of picture that may help you:
  https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=49046.0

« Last Edit: Wed, 15 April 2015, 09:03:10 by spiceBar »

Offline ileben

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Re: Leopold FC660C switch housing wobbles. What to do?
« Reply #4 on: Thu, 16 April 2015, 09:13:16 »
Thanks for all the suggestions. spiceBar, your guide looks like it will be very helpful. I will try these ideas when I get back home (in a few days) and report back on how it went.

I will definitely disassemble the case and make sure that the screws are tight. I am a bit hesitant about actually removing the switch housing from the plate (as you did with the large stabilized key), because the video I linked mentions that the plastic is brittle and might crack. Since the switch already has some play, I imagine if the little clip breaks it would not stick in the plate hole at all (would just fall out once I flip the plate). Did the stabilized key have the same little clips as seen on the 1x switch in the video, and how did you remove it without cracking?

Another idea I got was to use a tiny bit of hot glue. After a bit of research I've seen it mentioned several times in relation to key switches etc. Any opinion on that?
RF 87 55g (silenced) | FC660C (silenced) | Unicomp Ultra Classic | Filco MJ2 Brown | Matias Mini Quiet Pro

Offline spiceBar

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Re: Leopold FC660C switch housing wobbles. What to do?
« Reply #5 on: Thu, 16 April 2015, 18:12:18 »
Thanks for all the suggestions. spiceBar, your guide looks like it will be very helpful. I will try these ideas when I get back home (in a few days) and report back on how it went.

I will definitely disassemble the case and make sure that the screws are tight. I am a bit hesitant about actually removing the switch housing from the plate (as you did with the large stabilized key), because the video I linked mentions that the plastic is brittle and might crack. Since the switch already has some play, I imagine if the little clip breaks it would not stick in the plate hole at all (would just fall out once I flip the plate). Did the stabilized key have the same little clips as seen on the 1x switch in the video, and how did you remove it without cracking?

Another idea I got was to use a tiny bit of hot glue. After a bit of research I've seen it mentioned several times in relation to key switches etc. Any opinion on that?

There is no clip on the switch housing and the plastic is not brittle at all. You can't break anything by removing a housing from the plate.

The housings are just inserted into the plate, and they stay there because the hole has just the right size. It's easy to push a housing and get it out of the plate. There is no risk of breaking anything.

If one housing moves, it will easily fall from the plate. The thick grease will act as glue, and when you flip the plate it will hold the housing in position while you reassemble the keyboard.

I think you are confusing the housings and the sliders. There is a clip on the sliders, but it's irrelevant to your case.

Hot glue means hot, and I have no idea how this will affect the housing. I guess it could work if you are very careful. It's also less work than what I suggest. But this is a fix that could be hard to undo if things go wrong.

Offline NorrisB

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Re: Leopold FC660C switch housing wobbles. What to do?
« Reply #6 on: Thu, 16 April 2015, 19:56:51 »
The McRip Effect

Offline ileben

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Re: Leopold FC660C switch housing wobbles. What to do?
« Reply #7 on: Thu, 16 April 2015, 19:57:38 »
There is no clip on the switch housing and the plastic is not brittle at all. You can't break anything by removing a housing from the plate.

I'm talking about the "little clip" that the guy in the video is pointing at with his screwdriver at 7:50. It's definitely there, I can see it on my keyboard as well, and it prevent the housing from being just pushed out of the hole. Either there's a difference between stabilized and non-stabilized keys, or you worked with a different revision without a clip.
RF 87 55g (silenced) | FC660C (silenced) | Unicomp Ultra Classic | Filco MJ2 Brown | Matias Mini Quiet Pro

Offline spiceBar

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Re: Leopold FC660C switch housing wobbles. What to do?
« Reply #8 on: Thu, 16 April 2015, 20:45:38 »
There is no clip on the switch housing and the plastic is not brittle at all. You can't break anything by removing a housing from the plate.

I'm talking about the "little clip" that the guy in the video is pointing at with his screwdriver at 7:50. It's definitely there, I can see it on my keyboard as well, and it prevent the housing from being just pushed out of the hole. Either there's a difference between stabilized and non-stabilized keys, or you worked with a different revision without a clip.

Oh I see. Yes, you are correct. Sorry.

However I don't think this will be a problem. Even if the clips are rendered useless after popping the housing out of the plate, it does not matter because the small amount of thick grease you are going to apply will keep the housing in place for the few minutes when the plate and the PCB are apart. Once the keyboard is reassembled, it makes no difference.

Offline ileben

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[SOLVED] Re: Leopold FC660C switch housing wobbles. What to do?
« Reply #9 on: Sat, 01 August 2015, 02:15:07 »
I finally got around to this now and I solved my issue using thick grease as suggested by spiceBar, while also doing a full silent mod at the same time, as described here. First let me say this: the biggest concern I had with regard to doing it was actually moot. I have to say this loud: YOU DON'T NEED TO BREAK THE SWITCH HOUSING TO GET IT OUT OF THE PLATE. Okay, now that I've got this out of the way. Let's me give you some details on my process.

The hardest part of the whole process was actually opening the case. I used a screwdriver and a thin plastic knife-like tool (similar to what you can see in the video linked in OP). However, instead of starting at the front of the case, I started at the back of the case, and I unflipped the two stands, so that I could use them to pull the bottom part of the case out, as there is no other other good edge/lip to grab onto.

Once I got the plate separated from the rest, I poked around the switch housings. My initial theory proved correct, the switch that was making the loudest noise had the most play against the board. In fact, I then realised that the majority of switches had some degree of play (even the ones that felt stable with the board assembled), there were only about 10 that felt completely solid. After seeing this, I now completely understand why the designers of HHKB decided to merge the housings with the plate. They were clearly unhappy with the amount of tolerance on the Topre switches, and since the switches are not soldered, the soldering could not be an avenue for improvement, so they just went ahead and merged the switches. I can imagine a tiny stem and solder would work just as well, though.

I proceeded to take the loudest switch out first, thinking, if I break something might as well break this one. However, it turned out I was able to take the housing out without breaking the plastic around the clip, and quite easily too. I am not sure exactly how the person in the video was doing it, so it was either my process, or some potential difference in material (his keyboard doesn't look like the new dye-sub version). I rested my left thumb on the top of the switch, pushing down gently, while using the tip of a flat screwdriver to push horizontally into the clip, as pictured below.



The first switched popped out quite easily, so I proceeded to remove more of them. While doing this my OCD kicked in and my tolerance was getting lower and lower, so I ended up removing every switch that had the smallest resemblance of play. There was only about 10 switches left on the plate by the end  :p

I applied EK blue high viscosity grease around the hole of every switch I removed. After replacing the switches, most of them lost all play they had before, and the ones that still had play stopped producing any noise while doing so. I was really happy with how well this worked.

107067-1

As an extra tip I will provide some info on the silent mod portion of my work. I mostly followed spiceBar's method, while combining in the ideas from intelli78. To crush the landing pads, I used iron and placed the pads in between two sheets of paper on a hard surface (my kitchen bench). I played around with the number of pads I could smash at the same time, but found out I couldn't do it any more efficiently one by one than I could in larger batches. So I settled on doing 6 of them at a time, with heat set between medium and high, pushing down for 30 seconds with my whole weight + arm strength 3 times (flipping the pads to the other side in between). Here's a picture of the result. Not sure if I could have done anything different to get them even thinner.



When putting the pad onto the switch, I had to stretch the hole to fit around the thicker stem, which caused the sides of the pad to flip downwards. The stretching introduced an extra complication: you can see a little build up of material right around the stem when pushed all the way down. If I tried to flatten that material any more than you can see on the picture, the rest of the pad would swap the orientation and flip upwards, thus rendering the switch unusable. Obviously, I could've used glue to make sure the pad stays flat against the switch, but the whole idea of this mod is to be non-destructive, so you can revert it or change/improve it later if you want. So I settled on leaving the pads more or less the way you see on the picture. Luckily, if you look closely at the switch housing, you can see the slider hole does not transition sharply from the flat housing, but has a little bevel/curve where this extra material can fit, before the rest of the pad hits the top of the housing, so I don't think this issue has any additional impact on the feel of the key.



I used intelli78's idea of using a strip of 3 landing pads on the large stabilized keys. I first applied it as-is, then inserted the slider into the housing to see where it collides, and then trimmed the landing pads accordingly.

107073-4

The final result: the mod is as awesome as anyone else would tell you ;D The keyboard is now very silent and feels super solid. I wish I could more accurately recall the feel of stock silent Realforce when I tried it in Japan, but that memory is now too distant to make a fair comparison. One thing is certain though: after silencing all the extra rattle, I now clearly feel that a 45g topre doesn't quite have the tactility that I would like, and I just keep thinking about how much I want to silence my RF 55g. However, I have different plans for that - buying the silent version and transplanting the plate when I go to Japan again (soon).
RF 87 55g (silenced) | FC660C (silenced) | Unicomp Ultra Classic | Filco MJ2 Brown | Matias Mini Quiet Pro

Offline frekedech

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Re: [SOLVED] Leopold FC660C switch housing wobbles. What to do?
« Reply #10 on: Fri, 04 December 2015, 06:48:23 »
It's great someone has posted about the fix and indeed I have the same problem with the same "B" switch getting wobbly after about a month of usage.

Glad that this is a known issue (at least by OP) and anyone with the same issue please feel free to chime in to share. =)
Bitten by keycaps bug!

Offline Matsilainen

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Re: [SOLVED] Leopold FC660C switch housing wobbles. What to do?
« Reply #11 on: Tue, 08 December 2015, 07:00:06 »
After unpacking I noticed that the 'B' key had a weird rattle unlike other keys. … Now, I don't wanna return it, as I think another board could have the same problem on another key…

Ileben, I have an almost brand-new FC660C (Dye-Sub) with the same issue you described. My faulty key is the “E”. It makes a different sound than all the other alphas, and has started to bother me a little bit after I noticed it some days ago. Granted, it’s not a “biggie,” but when paying this much for a keyboard, I would expect to get one that is consistent, and free from any defects.

I purchased mine from the U.S. and would easily be able to get in touch with the vendor about the issue. However, I haven’t done so yet. My thoughts:
  • Like you mentioned, the vendor could exchange the keyboard, but then I might receive another one with a similar (or different) issue
  • I have considered doing a silencing mod at some point, which would (in addition to voiding the warranty) open the possibility of relocating the slightly wobbly switch to a less-used location on the keyboard

How difficult is it to swap switches? Your photos seem to illustrate that it’s a definite possibility, if I decide to open up this thing anyway.

Would appreciate any other input from anyone, as well. Thanks for a very informative thread, ileben!

Offline ileben

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Re: [SOLVED] Leopold FC660C switch housing wobbles. What to do?
« Reply #12 on: Tue, 08 December 2015, 07:25:29 »
How difficult is it to swap switches? Your photos seem to illustrate that it’s a definite possibility, if I decide to open up this thing anyway.

There is no need to swap switches, you can just do the same fix that I did. I don't know how easy or hard it is to buy a single replacement topre switch, but I think it's less hassle to just order the high-viscosity grease from EliteKeyboards and fix it.

You don't need to do the whole silent mod with the landing pads if you dont want to spend the time (it would take you a couple extra hours). You can fix the loud rattle just by putting thick grease under the switch housing as shown in my photos. I would highly suggest you to put the same thick grease on the ends of all the stabilizer wires while you're in there. It will improve the sound of stabilized keys dramatically.
RF 87 55g (silenced) | FC660C (silenced) | Unicomp Ultra Classic | Filco MJ2 Brown | Matias Mini Quiet Pro

Offline Matsilainen

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Re: [SOLVED] Leopold FC660C switch housing wobbles. What to do?
« Reply #13 on: Tue, 08 December 2015, 07:42:37 »
Thanks for your response and tips, ileben. Really glad I found this thread.

I’ll get some high viscosity lube, it seems that is the way to go with Topre switches. If hypersphere comes out with more silencing rings for sale on eBay, I might get those, too. I do like the thock on this FC660C, but wouldn’t mind trying a mod to find out what it would be like silenced.

Thanks again.