Author Topic: Children giving out free lemonade is destroying America  (Read 58503 times)

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Offline muchadoaboutnothing

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Children giving out free lemonade is destroying America
« on: Tue, 06 July 2010, 07:57:30 »
There is no 'free lemonade'

Quote from: The article
Last week, I was in a car with my brother and his fiancee, driving through their upscale neighborhood on a hot summer day. At the corner, we all noticed three little girls sitting at a homemade lemonade stand.

[...]

"Oh, no," they replied in unison, "they're all free!"

[...]


"No!" I exclaimed from the back seat. "That's not the spirit of giving. You can only really give when you give something you own. They're giving away their parents' things -- the lemonade, cups, candy. It's not theirs to give."


I pushed the button to roll down the window and stuck my head out to set them straight.

"You must charge something for the lemonade," I explained. "That's the whole point of a lemonade stand. You figure out your costs -- how much the lemonade costs, and the cups -- and then you charge a little more than what it costs you, so you can make money. Then you can buy more stuff, and make more lemonade, and sell it and make more money."

I was confident I had explained it clearly. Until my brother, breaking the tension, ordered a raspberry lemonade. As they handed it to him, he again asked: "So how much is it?"

And the girls once again replied: "It's free!" And the nanny looked on contentedly.

No wonder America is getting it all wrong when it comes to government, and taxes, and policy. We all act as if the "lemonade" or benefits we're "giving away" is free.


I mean, I'll take the underlining point that "free healthcare" and other benefits have costs, but picking on children for giving away free lemonade? Really now?

Offline Mental Hobbit

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Children giving out free lemonade is destroying America
« Reply #1 on: Tue, 06 July 2010, 08:09:52 »
Rampant communism! :madgrin:
Wonder how much the author was charged for the ride by his brother?
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Offline ch_123

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Children giving out free lemonade is destroying America
« Reply #2 on: Tue, 06 July 2010, 10:13:04 »
Is this some sort of poorly constructed argument against Obama's health care?

Offline muchadoaboutnothing

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Children giving out free lemonade is destroying America
« Reply #3 on: Tue, 06 July 2010, 10:17:26 »
Quote from: ch_123;199952
Is this some sort of poorly constructed argument against Obama's health care?


Seems to be a poorly constructed argument against people believing that you can get something for nothing and ignoring the fact that making all of these "free" services has a substantial cost. More importantly, this culture of "free" is resulting in us making a massive deficit.

In short, he's arguing against the concept that you can get something for nothing, and all of the ridiculous bloated spending that we're doing right now is just adding to a massive debt (the deficit) for future generations. You can't print money to get rid of it (inflation) and you can't just build it up forever (eventually other countries are going to be fed up).

However, the intro is really poor and is him essentially picking on children for choosing to have fun and give away lemonade instead of charging for it, billing it as the decay of America's future generations into thinking they can give or get anything without any cost.

Offline Rajagra

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Children giving out free lemonade is destroying America
« Reply #4 on: Tue, 06 July 2010, 10:25:04 »
Quote from: ch_123;199952
Is this some sort of poorly constructed argument against Obama's health care?

Lol, it was. Weak.

Maybe they were making money on a sponsorship deal? :smile:

Actually the first thing I thought of when I read the subject was they were doing it for the skillup points. In World of Warcraft you can learn trades, and some cost you a lot to learn, so some people give their services away for free in return for the materials. This way they learn skills at no cost - and no profit - but they progress faster. You could make a similar argument for doing the same thing in real life.
« Last Edit: Tue, 06 July 2010, 10:28:55 by Rajagra »

Offline itlnstln

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Children giving out free lemonade is destroying America
« Reply #5 on: Tue, 06 July 2010, 10:28:04 »
It's all cost-shifting.  You move the money you were paying for a privatized service to taxes for the socialized service.  With the socialized service, you tend to pay less with fewer/lower cost increases and the service becomes universal in many cases.  The bottom line, though, is that it's cost-shifting.


Offline Rajagra

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Children giving out free lemonade is destroying America
« Reply #6 on: Tue, 06 July 2010, 10:41:46 »
The fact is, everyone has a risk of illness, this makes the problem highly appropriate to be covered by insurance of some sort. The most efficient and cost-effective way of providing this 'insurance' is to make it compulsory and have it handled by a large, benevolent, non-profit organisation. In civilized countries the compulsory premiums come from tax, the government is the large non-profit organisation. It works.

Yes, there are arguments that government can be inefficient compared to the private sector. But the bottom line is that the U.S. has the most expensive healthcare in the world and its performance is way down the league table.

If Americans don't want a better, cheaper health care system, then more fool them.

That's as stupid as the Iraqis complaining that they didn't want democracy after Saddam Hussein fell. (And it is remarkably dumb to say what you want, when what you want is for nobody to listen to what you want.)

Offline ch_123

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Children giving out free lemonade is destroying America
« Reply #7 on: Tue, 06 July 2010, 10:53:26 »
The dynamics of American politics are hilarious. Rich people don't want to pay more taxes, and corporations want to continue screwing people over for insurance, so they convince the numb-skull'd 'small town American' that BIG GOVERNMENT is trying to screw them over by paying more taxes, knowing that such people lack the capability to realize that they would be saving more money in the long run under socialized health care.

And they say the Middle East is run by mad men...

« Last Edit: Tue, 06 July 2010, 10:57:52 by ch_123 »

Offline audioave10

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Children giving out free lemonade is destroying America
« Reply #8 on: Tue, 06 July 2010, 11:20:42 »
^^^ That's what is killing the country...not the children.
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Offline microsoft windows

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Children giving out free lemonade is destroying America
« Reply #9 on: Tue, 06 July 2010, 11:21:14 »
First off, we aren't convinced by corporations that we don't want the government to get too big. There are lots of things that work better privately. Our government's already in lots of debt and we don't want it to take over things it simply can't afford. And we aren't "numb-skulled" idiots. You're the idiot here thinking you know so much about the politics of a country all the way across the ocean where you don't even live.

Socialized health care doesn't save money. It's not like it makes any of the services more efficient or cheaper. It'll just be people who earn more money paying for others' health care. We're plenty capable of seeing the dangers of big government. Look at your continent, Europe. How are all those socialist governments doing? Many of them are in big financial trouble (Greece, Spain, Portugal, Britain, etc...).


If you're so smart, how about you tell us how socialized health care saves money in the long run. You won't give us real evidence, because you can't. It doesn't save money. Government health care is actually more expensive.

And maybe if any of your relatives got off their ass and actually served in the Middle East, you'd agree with me that there are real mad men out there.
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Offline ch_123

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Children giving out free lemonade is destroying America
« Reply #10 on: Tue, 06 July 2010, 11:38:39 »
Quote from: microsoft windows;199969
First off, we aren't convinced by corporations that we don't want the government to get too big. There are lots of things that work better privately. Our government's already in lots of debt and we don't want it to take over things it simply can't afford. And we aren't "numb-skulled" idiots. You're the idiot here thinking you know so much about the politics of a country all the way across the ocean where you don't even live.


The facts are that there are huge scores of Americans who have no health insurance and not enough money to pay for healthcare. Obviously the private system isn't working out quite well.

As for the government not being able to afford it? Simple, it raises taxes. People pay more to the government, but don't have to pay an even greater amount to private insurers. I'm pretty sure that works out well for everyone in the long run.

Quote
Socialized health care doesn't save money. It's not like it makes any of the services more efficient or cheaper. It'll just be people who earn more money paying for others' health care.


It does if the costs are spread across all American taxpayers. But God forbid that the rich would have to pay for poor people to access basic health care, especially not in one of the most Christian countries in the world.

Quote
How are all those socialist governments doing? Many of them are in big financial trouble (Greece, Spain, Portugal, Britain, etc...).


Pretty good considering how American corporations drove the world economy. You know, those ones that those evil BIG GOVERNMENT bastards shouldn't be regulating?

Post hoc ergo propter hoc, much?

Quote
And maybe if any of your relatives got off their ass and actually served in the Middle East, you'd agree with me that there are real mad men out there.


My Grandfather, and some other relatives of mine fought in the US military in WW2. On the other side of my family, other relatives of mine died in the trenches of France when the US was still sitting on its backside in 1916.

Y'know, back in the days when the US fought wars that counted for something, not just killing Muslims for the lulz.

Nice attempt at a troll, but pulled on the wrong person.
« Last Edit: Tue, 06 July 2010, 11:40:41 by ch_123 »

Offline itlnstln

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Children giving out free lemonade is destroying America
« Reply #11 on: Tue, 06 July 2010, 11:41:38 »
Quote from: ch_123;199965


Jesus Christ that lady has some big balls.


Offline Rajagra

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Children giving out free lemonade is destroying America
« Reply #12 on: Tue, 06 July 2010, 11:59:24 »
Quote from: itlnstln;199979
Jesus Christ that lady has some big balls.


Not so much a camel hoof, more a camel head.

P.S. What exactly do Americans pay taxes for? Either you accept taxation is necessary for the public good, or you shouldn't have it at all.

Once you concede taxation is acceptable, what could possibly be a more worthy candidate for spending it on than health? It's a no-brainer, right up there with having police, armed forces, etc. In fact it's a higher priority than those.

Offline ch_123

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Children giving out free lemonade is destroying America
« Reply #13 on: Tue, 06 July 2010, 12:02:32 »
Certainly more important than sending people out to Iraq for... wait, what's the trendy excuse for that one these days? I lost track after the 45-minutes one.

Offline gr1m

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Children giving out free lemonade is destroying America
« Reply #14 on: Tue, 06 July 2010, 12:34:12 »
My mom has heart problems and my dad has mild cancer. They don't pay a dime for treatment. As far as I know, the fees involved to get it treated in the US would have been astronomical, correct? I'd say socialized healthcare is the bomb. Then again, what do I know.

Offline wellington1869

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Children giving out free lemonade is destroying America
« Reply #15 on: Tue, 06 July 2010, 12:37:24 »
Quote from: gr1m;199993
My mom has heart problems and my dad has mild cancer. They don't pay a dime for treatment. As far as I know, the fees involved to get it treated in the US would have been astronomical, correct?

correct. They'd probably have to sell the house, keep the kids out of college, and get on welfare, to afford treatment. "Its the american way!!!"
Quote

I'd say socialized healthcare is the bomb.

me too
Quote

Then again, what do I know.

you know how little they're paying thanks to taxes taking care of needs we all have in common and paying for those needs more efficiently as a result.

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Offline ch_123

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Children giving out free lemonade is destroying America
« Reply #16 on: Tue, 06 July 2010, 12:45:55 »
Quote from: gr1m;199993
My mom has heart problems and my dad has mild cancer. They don't pay a dime for treatment. As far as I know, the fees involved to get it treated in the US would have been astronomical, correct? I'd say socialized healthcare is the bomb. Then again, what do I know.


Freeloaders. They should be off fighting in Iraq to earn their keep in society.

Offline hyperlinked

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Children giving out free lemonade is destroying America
« Reply #17 on: Tue, 06 July 2010, 12:49:49 »
I certainly have a healthy distrust of big government. I also have healthy distrust of big industry and I don't see how the two are diametrically in opposition to each other.

Both are out of my control and both rule my life in ways that I sometimes am not happy about. The difference is that I at least get a vote in the government.

The thing that amuses me about in the American healthcare debate is how massive healthcare insurance corporations are not seen by those on the right as being NOT a form of (private) government. I'm baffled at how out of control corporate governance whose budget has been growing at 20%+ every year can be seen as superior to civil governance. I personally have issues with both, but as I said, I at least get a vote in one of my two less than perfect options.
« Last Edit: Tue, 06 July 2010, 13:02:51 by hyperlinked »
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Offline wellington1869

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Children giving out free lemonade is destroying America
« Reply #18 on: Tue, 06 July 2010, 13:27:50 »
Quote from: ripster;200004
People who don't like Big Government support Tax Breaks for Big Oil/Big Money(Wall Street)/Big Spenders(me).

This I don't get.


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Offline itlnstln

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Children giving out free lemonade is destroying America
« Reply #19 on: Tue, 06 July 2010, 13:28:06 »
Quote from: ripster;200004
People who don't like Big Government support Tax Breaks for Big Oil/Big Money(Wall Street)/Big Spenders(me).

This I don't get.


Well said. Texans have it all backwards.  I apologize to BP for the action our govt. has taken against you.  Enron, I apologize to you, too, for whatever-the-hell reason.


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Offline Mental Hobbit

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Children giving out free lemonade is destroying America
« Reply #20 on: Tue, 06 July 2010, 13:28:52 »
Quote from: microsoft windows;199969

If you're so smart, how about you tell us how socialized health care saves money in the long run.


In most countries it does so by simply taking profit out of the equation.
Not going to happen in the US of course, that's why health reform in it's current state makes little sense.
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Offline kishy

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Children giving out free lemonade is destroying America
« Reply #21 on: Tue, 06 July 2010, 13:30:36 »
Quote from: itlnstln;199957
It's all cost-shifting.  You move the money you were paying for a privatized service to taxes for the socialized service.  With the socialized service, you tend to pay less with fewer/lower cost increases and the service becomes universal in many cases.  The bottom line, though, is that it's cost-shifting.


This. THIS!!!

Quote from: ch_123;199965


Reminds me of:

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Offline ricercar

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Children giving out free lemonade is destroying America
« Reply #22 on: Tue, 06 July 2010, 14:27:49 »
Quote from: audioave10;199968
^^^ That's what is killing the country...not the children.


Obese adults produce obese children?
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Offline ch_123

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Children giving out free lemonade is destroying America
« Reply #23 on: Tue, 06 July 2010, 14:56:02 »
More like stupid parents produce stupid children.

Offline EverythingIBM

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Children giving out free lemonade is destroying America
« Reply #24 on: Tue, 06 July 2010, 15:19:39 »
Quote from: ch_123;200038
More like stupid parents produce stupid children.


Well usually it has to do with how the parents feed their children. If they're sucking on pork ribs all day downing it with pop, the children will probably eat the same thing and become obese.

It could also be genetically influenced, but it's used far too much as an excuse today. You don't become overweight from genetics, it just influences your build.

Everyone is getting so fat today -- even the cars are:

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Offline ch_123

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Children giving out free lemonade is destroying America
« Reply #25 on: Tue, 06 July 2010, 15:31:53 »
I was moreso talking about people with stupid political agendas spreading them on to their children, but I guess it applies to dietary concerns too.

Offline Oqsy

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Children giving out free lemonade is destroying America
« Reply #26 on: Tue, 06 July 2010, 18:08:30 »
You hippies need haircuts and real jobs.  I agree with the title sentence of this thread.  So long, commies.
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Offline Computer-Lab in Basement

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Children giving out free lemonade is destroying America
« Reply #27 on: Tue, 06 July 2010, 18:27:12 »
Quote from: ch_123;199976
The facts are that there are huge scores of Americans who have no health insurance and not enough money to pay for healthcare. Obviously the private system isn't working out quite well.


Obviously you don't have all of your facts straight either.  Alot of the people in America that have no healthcare CHOOSE not to have it, people like contracters in their mid twenties that are in good enough health that they can get away with not having healthcare.  My brother is a perfect example.  He couldn't handle going to college and working as a sub-contracter, so he dropped out of school (which left him without healthcare).  So as of right now, he is CHOOSING not to have healthcare by CHOOSING to work instaed of go to school.  Ok, enough said.
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Offline ch_123

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Children giving out free lemonade is destroying America
« Reply #28 on: Tue, 06 July 2010, 18:35:28 »
Quote from: Computer-Lab in Basement;200087
Obviously you don't have all of your facts straight either.  Alot of the people in America that have no healthcare CHOOSE not to have it, people like contracters in their mid twenties that are in good enough health that they can get away with not having healthcare.  My brother is a perfect example.  He couldn't handle going to college and working as a sub-contracter, so he dropped out of school (which left him without healthcare).  So as of right now, he is CHOOSING not to have healthcare by CHOOSING to work instaed of go to school.  Ok, enough said.


You sound like you lifted that from one of the satirical chatshow radio channels in Grand Theft Auto...

Yep, no poverty... people choose to be poor!

The fact that people have to chose not to have healthcare because they can't afford it is kinda the point, innit?
« Last Edit: Tue, 06 July 2010, 18:40:17 by ch_123 »

Offline quadibloc

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Children giving out free lemonade is destroying America
« Reply #29 on: Tue, 06 July 2010, 18:44:36 »
It's bad enough that people have to purchase private health insurance out of their own pockets, because that means a problem for poor people. However, there are county hospitals and the like, so to a limited extent, America has socialized medicine, I've been told.

But what I find is worse is the half-hearted efforts that have been made to get the benefits of socialism from capitalism. Someone decided it was unfair that HIV-positive people couldn't afford health insurance. So they passed a law forbidding health insurers to discriminate, based on this actual risk factor.

The trouble is, though, you don't have to buy health insurance from insurance company X the way you have to pay your taxes. So a private insurer simply cannot get into the redistribution business.

Result? The only health insurance there is are large averaged-out institutional employment plans. (The government came up with COBRA to let people keep their large-corporation coverage after they leave work, attempting to fix the problem their regulations created with more regulation.)

Self-employed artists and musicians, though, just can't get health insurance. Period.

People desperately want to stay alive, and keep their loved ones alive. Not ensuring that money is simply out of the equation when it comes to health care will lead to normal, honest people being driven to the breaking point and committing crimes. It's a headache that isn't needed.

At the same time, though, it is in another way a good thing that at least one country doesn't have socialized medicine - doctors can point to it to show what a doctor is worth. With the pressure that already exists in Canada to cut what doctors can bill to Medicare, once the U.S. adopts socialized medicine, it may not be long before doctors in the whole developed world get paid about as much as schoolteachers.

Offline ch_123

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« Reply #30 on: Tue, 06 July 2010, 19:04:04 »
Quote
With the pressure that already exists in Canada to cut what doctors can bill to Medicare, once the U.S. adopts socialized medicine, it may not be long before doctors in the whole developed world get paid about as much as schoolteachers.


Given the amount of **** doctors who are only in it for the money, is that such a bad thing? =P

Offline kishy

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Children giving out free lemonade is destroying America
« Reply #31 on: Tue, 06 July 2010, 19:09:51 »
Quote from: ch_123;200089
You sound like you lifted that from one of the satirical chatshow radio channels in Grand Theft Auto...

Yep, no poverty... people choose to be poor!

The fact that people have to chose not to have healthcare because they can't afford it is kinda the point, innit?


THIS!!!

Quote from: ch_123;200095
Given the amount of **** doctors who are only in it for the money, is that such a bad thing? =P


AND THIS TOO!!!

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Offline ch_123

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Children giving out free lemonade is destroying America
« Reply #32 on: Tue, 06 July 2010, 19:21:04 »
Another perspective on Quadibloc's statement -

If American teachers were paid as well as American doctors, I'd say an awful lot of America's problems would be solved...

Offline Rajagra

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Children giving out free lemonade is destroying America
« Reply #33 on: Tue, 06 July 2010, 20:24:05 »
Quote from: Computer-Lab in Basement;200087
So as of right now, he is CHOOSING not to have healthcare by CHOOSING to work


I didn't realise that making an active contribution to society by working was considered to be a selfish and irresponsible act in the U.S. Thank you for clarifying that. :usa2:

Offline maclover

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Children giving out free lemonade is destroying America
« Reply #34 on: Tue, 06 July 2010, 21:16:50 »

Offline maclover

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Children giving out free lemonade is destroying America
« Reply #35 on: Tue, 06 July 2010, 21:20:30 »
our deficit

Offline kishy

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Children giving out free lemonade is destroying America
« Reply #36 on: Tue, 06 July 2010, 22:24:05 »
Surely a huge deficit but better societal conditions outweighs a low or nill deficit with ****ty (aka how it is and has been for years) conditions?
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Offline wellington1869

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Children giving out free lemonade is destroying America
« Reply #37 on: Tue, 06 July 2010, 23:12:17 »
Quote from: maclover;200125
our deficit
Show Image


whats the source on that? Health care is designed to pay for itself (unlike our wars) via savings and efficiencies compared to our current health care distribution system; so that graph is false.

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Offline mike

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Children giving out free lemonade is destroying America
« Reply #38 on: Wed, 07 July 2010, 06:56:10 »
Quote from: microsoft windows;199969
Socialized health care doesn't save money.


Doesn't it ? The US has the least socialised health care system in the developed world yet it has the highest health care costs. These things don't have simple answers, but those countries that have socialised health care pay less and get more or less the same quality.

Quote from: microsoft windows;199969
How are all those socialist governments doing? Many of them are in big financial trouble (Greece, Spain, Portugal, Britain, etc...).


I can't answer for the other countries, but the extent of Britain's problems is that we might lose a tripe-A credit rating if we don't do something about the government deficit. Losing that rating means we will have to pay more interest on government debt - not good, but it's hardly the skies falling, starvation in the street kind of trouble.

Quote from: microsoft windows;199969
If you're so smart, how about you tell us how socialized health care saves money in the long run. You won't give us real evidence, because you can't. It doesn't save money. Government health care is actually more expensive.


The numbers are easily available - just look for the percentage of GDP that each country spends on health care, or the cost per capita of health care. As of a few years ago, the US was spending $6719 per person on health care and the UK was spending $2815. Now that I've shown that socialised health care isn't necessarily more expensive, how about you demonstrate that it's always more expensive with some hard numbers?

Quote from: microsoft windows;199969
And maybe if any of your relatives got off their ass and actually served in the Middle East, you'd agree with me that there are real mad men out there.


I don't have any close relatives out in Iraq or Afghanistan at the moment, but I do have childhood friends who've been out there. And as you've decided to be offensive about it, I remember a couple of wars where my relatives were fighting and dying before yours were in uniform.
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Offline itlnstln

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Children giving out free lemonade is destroying America
« Reply #39 on: Wed, 07 July 2010, 07:01:34 »
Quote from: Trollosoft Windows
How are all those socialist governments doing? Many of them are in big financial trouble (Greece, Spain, Portugal, Britain, etc...).

This is a common argument here in Texas.  These countries are in trouble much more so for other reasons (investments, corruption, other economic maladies) than they are for their social programs.  Remember, it's cost shifting.  Social programs are offset by taxes.  Healthcare reform didn't cause the recession, banks and poor investment did.


Offline gr1m

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Children giving out free lemonade is destroying America
« Reply #40 on: Wed, 07 July 2010, 07:09:11 »
Every European country is in trouble because of Greece. Why Greece is in trouble, nothing to do with socialized healthcare.

Offline hyperlinked

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Children giving out free lemonade is destroying America
« Reply #41 on: Wed, 07 July 2010, 07:37:05 »
Quote from: itlnstln;200192
trollsoft windows

lol.
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Offline wellington1869

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Children giving out free lemonade is destroying America
« Reply #42 on: Wed, 07 July 2010, 08:31:00 »
how are those socialist countries doing?

US ranks near bottom of life expectancy, and US has highest health care costs.

Do we americans really love being last? Doesnt sound very patriotic to me. Do we love throwing away money? Doesnt sound very capitalist to me.

Seems to me the fastest way to be commie and unpatriotic is to deny americans healthcare.

US has second worst newborn death rate in developed world Oh yea, its all those socialist countries that are ahead of us.
But we did beat Latvia.
yay america.
« Last Edit: Wed, 07 July 2010, 08:33:08 by wellington1869 »

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Offline ch_123

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Children giving out free lemonade is destroying America
« Reply #43 on: Wed, 07 July 2010, 09:25:11 »
Quote from: itlnstln;200192
This is a common argument here in Texas.  These countries are in trouble much more so for other reasons (investments, corruption, other economic maladies) than they are for their social programs.  Remember, it's cost shifting.  Social programs are offset by taxes.  Healthcare reform didn't cause the recession, banks and poor investment did.

This. What MW was saying is an obvious example of the causation/correlation fallacy. The other common variation on this one is "Country X (usually the UK) has socialized healthcare, and it sucks, therefore all socialized healthcare sucks". The reality is that even if there weren't plenty of examples of successful socialized healthcare systems, such as the Swedish one, and all socialized healthcare systems that currently existed sucked, it wouldn't be a valid argument against socialized healthcare unless it was qualified with some explanation as to why socialized healthcare can never work, or is so hard to get right that there's no point in trying.

Quote
I don't have any close relatives out in Iraq or Afghanistan at the moment, but I do have childhood friends who've been out there. And as you've decided to be offensive about it, I remember a couple of wars where my relatives were fighting and dying before yours were in uniform.

Of course, fighting in wars has no bearing on your ability to talk about healthcare. I just entertained MW's redneck rants to amuse myself.
« Last Edit: Wed, 07 July 2010, 09:38:32 by ch_123 »

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Children giving out free lemonade is destroying America
« Reply #44 on: Wed, 07 July 2010, 09:49:10 »
Quote from: wellington1869;200224
US ranks near bottom of life expectancy, and US has highest health care costs.
Take those stats with a grain of salt. How you end up first or last can change drastically depending on how you cut the stats.

While I roll my eyes everytime I hear some idiot parroting that we have the best healthcare system in the world. The opposite untruth is just as frustrating to me. As someone who's toured a lot of hospitals, there is no conceivable way that we're at the bottom of the rankings either.

I think we're severely underperforming and our system is majorly screwed up, but we're not THAT bad.
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Offline ch_123

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Children giving out free lemonade is destroying America
« Reply #45 on: Wed, 07 July 2010, 09:52:13 »
The concept of 'best' and 'worst' is quite subjective in terms of the parameters you use to quantify it. Thus the ease by which statistics can be twisted to say whatever you want to say.

Offline wellington1869

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Children giving out free lemonade is destroying America
« Reply #46 on: Wed, 07 July 2010, 10:10:58 »
Quote from: hyperlinked;200257
Take those stats with a grain of salt. How you end up first or last can change drastically depending on how you cut the stats.

While I roll my eyes everytime I hear some idiot parroting that we have the best healthcare system in the world. The opposite untruth is just as frustrating to me. As someone who's toured a lot of hospitals, there is no conceivable way that we're at the bottom of the rankings either.

I think we're severely underperforming and our system is majorly screwed up, but we're not THAT bad.


we're definitely at the bottom of the rankings among developed nations. There's been all kinds of stats from a variety of organizations and institutions that measure this sort of thing, and all have concluded the same thing in that regard. Also health care stats are relatively easy to measure, since nearly every developed nation keeps pretty good national stats.  Google this, it isnt an isolated or single biased organization that is producing these stats, its a wide variety of both national and international organizations that keep tabs on these things.

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Offline hyperlinked

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Children giving out free lemonade is destroying America
« Reply #47 on: Wed, 07 July 2010, 10:16:18 »
Quote from: wellington1869;200272
Also health care stats are relatively easy to measure

No.
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Offline wellington1869

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Children giving out free lemonade is destroying America
« Reply #48 on: Wed, 07 July 2010, 10:21:31 »
yes, because developed nations keep complex healthcare stats as part of national security policy.

Direct comparisons of health statistics across nations are complex. The Commonwealth Fund, in its annual survey, "Mirror, Mirror on the Wall", compares the performance of the health care systems in Australia, New Zealand, the United Kingdom, Germany, Canada and the U.S. Its 2007 study found that, although the U.S. system is the most expensive, it consistently underperforms compared to the other countries.


again, you can google this yourself; my point merely is that a variety of organizations, national and international, consistently conclude the same thing on this point.  This might hurt our feelings, but its true.

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Offline wellington1869

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Children giving out free lemonade is destroying America
« Reply #49 on: Wed, 07 July 2010, 10:24:44 »
and more to the point, in the long list of countries that beat us, an overwhelming majority of them have universal healthcare. Which was the point.

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