Author Topic: Children giving out free lemonade is destroying America  (Read 58589 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline microsoft windows

  • Blue Troll of Death
  • * Exalted Elder
  • Posts: 3621
  • President of geekhack.org
    • Get Internet Explorer 6
Children giving out free lemonade is destroying America
« Reply #50 on: Wed, 07 July 2010, 10:35:02 »
I don't think government-run health care for the US is a good idea. Our government can't even switch over TV without the program going broke. Or look at Amtrak. Or the postal service.

While it would be nice if everybody could have free healthcare, it's just not plausible here in the US. These  supplies and services will cost the same no matter what. If the government made the same service cheaper, chances are it's subsidizing it. And our government in the US is already in big trouble financially.

The quality of health care in the US is among the best in the world. I believe keeping that 1/6 of the national economy private is the best option for us. Even if the government had the money to subsidize health care, they should still keep it a private industry and encourage innovation in technologies by rewarding corporations who develop new and better methods of treating people.
CLICK HERE!     OFFICIAL PRESIDENT OF GEEKHACK.ORG    MAKE AMERICA GREAT AGAIN MERRY CHRISTMAS

Offline ch_123

  • * Exalted Elder
  • Posts: 5860
Children giving out free lemonade is destroying America
« Reply #51 on: Wed, 07 July 2010, 10:49:22 »
Public and private healthcare are not mutually exclusive. In Ireland, England, and I'd assume most other places with social healthcare, both systems exist side by side.

Obviously a public healthcare system isn't going to be perfect - you may not get the best possible care, and you have to wait quite a long time depending on what you need done, but it means that people on the lower end of the income bracket aren't going to... well, die, if they need to be hospitalized. This benefits not only the people who need social healthcare, but arguably society as whole because there are less sick people around the place, and less loss of productivity due to sickness.

If people want to get the best healthcare, it's available, they just have to pay for it out of their own pocket.

Some would say that the private system is evil, sucks in all the best doctors, and creates a two-tiered health system. But they're just communists.
« Last Edit: Wed, 07 July 2010, 10:52:21 by ch_123 »

Offline microsoft windows

  • Blue Troll of Death
  • * Exalted Elder
  • Posts: 3621
  • President of geekhack.org
    • Get Internet Explorer 6
Children giving out free lemonade is destroying America
« Reply #52 on: Wed, 07 July 2010, 10:53:27 »
I think Sweden's done the best job with socialist health care. But it's small and not too populated. And its economy is small. And its taxes are high.

Many European countries are in deep financial trouble because of all these government programs, low retirement age, and high pensions. I won't be surprised if socialized health care will be a thing of the past in 50 years, after many European nations, such as Greece, Spain, Portugal, and possibly Britain go insolvent.
CLICK HERE!     OFFICIAL PRESIDENT OF GEEKHACK.ORG    MAKE AMERICA GREAT AGAIN MERRY CHRISTMAS

Offline Rajagra

  • Posts: 1930
Children giving out free lemonade is destroying America
« Reply #53 on: Wed, 07 July 2010, 10:55:33 »
As people grow up, they slowly realise that their parents aren't flawless, can't fix every problem, and are actually no good at some things. By the time you are an adult, you should understand that your parents are imperfect and love them despite their limitations. Soon you will surpass their abilities.

The same is true of love for your country. As a child you think yours is the best in the world, does everything the 'right' way, and anyone unfortunate enough to be born in a different country deserves pity.

By the time you are an adult, you should have realised this isn't true. No matter how good your country is, there are other places that do certain things better, and the people are better off in many ways.

I know this is an especially hard concept for some Americans to grasp. But just because you feel lucky and proud to be American, that doesn't mean your way is the right way or the best way.

If you use 'Americanness' to measure how good something is, you are condemning yourself to making poor choices. Learn to think objectively and you will be much better off.

Offline ch_123

  • * Exalted Elder
  • Posts: 5860
Children giving out free lemonade is destroying America
« Reply #54 on: Wed, 07 July 2010, 10:56:18 »
Show proof that healthcare is a serious contributory factor in the economic decline of these countries.

Offline microsoft windows

  • Blue Troll of Death
  • * Exalted Elder
  • Posts: 3621
  • President of geekhack.org
    • Get Internet Explorer 6
Children giving out free lemonade is destroying America
« Reply #55 on: Wed, 07 July 2010, 10:56:57 »
America just happens to be good at more things than most other countries.
CLICK HERE!     OFFICIAL PRESIDENT OF GEEKHACK.ORG    MAKE AMERICA GREAT AGAIN MERRY CHRISTMAS

Offline wellington1869

  • Posts: 2885
Children giving out free lemonade is destroying America
« Reply #56 on: Wed, 07 July 2010, 11:00:56 »
Quote from: microsoft windows;200281
I don't think government-run health care for the US is a good idea.

i think its a terrific idea, as good an idea as the EPA, the FDA, the FAA, the SEC, our military services, and like them, something that neither private companies nor the states could ever be trusted to do.

Quote

Or look at Amtrak.

yes, lets look at amtrak.

"In the late 1960s, the end of passenger rail in the United States seemed near. First had come the requests for termination of services; now came the bankruptcy filings. The legendary Pullman Company became insolvent in 1969, followed by the dominant railroad in the Northeastern United States, the Penn Central, in 1970. It now seemed that passenger rail's financial problems might bring down the railroad industry as a whole."

whats this? private companies failed? Naaaah.

"In 1970, Congress passed and President Richard Nixon signed into law, the Rail Passenger Service Act. Proponents of the bill, led by the National Association of Railroad Passengers (NARP), sought government funding to assure the continuation of passenger trains. They conceived the National Railroad Passenger Corporation (NRPC), a hybrid public-private entity that would receive taxpayer funding and assume operation of intercity passenger trains. The original working brand name for NRPC was Railpax, but shortly before the company started operating it was changed to Amtrak."

Whats this? Amtrak was signed into law by NIXON?!
naaaah.

"Following the bankruptcy of several northeastern railroads in the early 1970s, including Penn Central which owned and operated the Northeast Corridor, Congress passed the Railroad Revitalization and Regulatory Reform Act of
1976"

whats this? private companies continued failing? naaaaah.


"The Nixon administration secretly agreed with some railroads that Amtrak would be shut down after two years.

whats this, and Nixon had designed amtrak to fail? Naaaaah.

"After Fortune magazine exposed the manufactured mismanagement in 1974, Louis W. Menk, chairman of the Burlington Northern Railroad remarked that the story was undermining the scheme to dismantle Amtrak.[9] Though for its entire existence the company has been subjected to political cross-winds and insufficient capital resources"

naaaah.

and despite this, "Amtrak's ridership has maintained consistent growth."
naaaah.

oh, and hows it doing now?
"Amtrak set its sixth straight year of record ridership, with 28.7 million passengers for the 12 months ended September 30, 2008"

naaaaah. I dont believe it.

Quote

Or the postal service.

you really hate paying 40 cents for door to door delivery huh? wow.

You also seem to think the guv'ment is or should be a profit making entity. Um, its not, and it shouldnt be.  Didnt you pay any attention in your high school civics classes?


Quote

The quality of health care in the US is among the best in the world.

for those who can afford it. Um, thats the problem, in case you werent paying attention. Its a, um, huge problem.

Quote

 Even if the government had the money to subsidize health care

again you dont understand either the problem or the solution. The problem IS healthcare costs; the solution isnt "subsidy" but reducing those costs by introducing efficiencies that private companies have refused to introduce themselves, such as creating a single pool of insurance customers who can share the costs and expense much more efficiently. Obama's proposal is  still a free market system, by the way. You should really read it some time and get less of your information from glenn beck and rush limbaugh.

while you're at it, try reading a history book now and then.  Its your responsiblity to be informed of all sides of the debate as a citizen; to not be informed is pretty unpatriotic actually. Are you a commie or something?  You clearly want our government to fail and seem to relish in its difficulties. How much  more unpatriotic can you get?
« Last Edit: Wed, 07 July 2010, 11:21:00 by wellington1869 »

"Blah blah blah grade school blah blah blah IBM PS/2s blah blah blah I like Model Ms." -- Kishy

using: ms 7000/Das 3

Offline hyperlinked

  • Posts: 924
Children giving out free lemonade is destroying America
« Reply #57 on: Wed, 07 July 2010, 11:01:20 »
Quote from: wellington1869;200274
yes, because developed nations keep complex healthcare stats as part of national security policy.

What I mean is that it doesn't really tell the whole story. ch_123 brought up the issue of causation. That is the part that is really hard to nail down.

Is the life expectancy of the average American lower because of violence and a societal tendency toward risk taking behaviors that lead to a lot of young males meeting premature ends? Does pro-life fanaticism lead to the birth of many infants who might have been aborted as unviable infants in some other countries? Is our ownership of such advanced technologies leading us to overvalue the idea of spending lots of money to extend a life by a week rather than allowing nature to take its course? Is infant morality high because of poor obstetric care or is it high because your typical American is very busy and lives isolated from that village that it supposedly takes to raise the child?

I could go on and on, but you get the picture.

My feelings weren't hurt. My healthcare background was. There is nothing straightforward about healthcare numbers. The stats you're citing paint a troubling picture, but don't explain the situation we're in. It says something is wrong, but doesn't say what's wrong.

We could find that even the most extensive healthcare reform will move the numbers very little or even move the numbers the wrong direction. How could this be possible? It's possible because cultural factors matter and American attitudes of invincibility could indeed be a factor in bad health outcomes. What if having improved access to healthcare actually caused fewer people to exercise and watch their diet because now they have access to pills they didn't before?

I personally won't be surprised if these numbers don't change much for decades even if the most radical healthcare reform is enacted, but that doesn't mean I'm against healthcare reform. I'm a hell yeah in support of it. Now, I'd expect that these numbers will inch along the right direction, but it's a risky bet to take so I just don't see the argument being won with the numbers you're using because they leave so much unexplained.
« Last Edit: Wed, 07 July 2010, 11:22:47 by hyperlinked »
-

Topre: Realforce 103U Cherry: Filco Majestouch 104 (Brown), Ione Scorpius M10 (Blue)
Buckling Spring: IBM Model M1391401 ALPS: Apple Extended Keyboard II (Cream), ABS M1 (Fukka/Black), MicroConnectors Flavored USB (Black)
Domes: Matias Optimizer, Kensington ComfortType, Microsoft Internet Keyboard
Scissors: Apple Full Sized Aluminum
Pointy Stuff: Razer Imperator, Razer Copperhead, DT225 Trackball, Apple Magic Mouse, Logitech MX1000, Apple Mighty Mouse
Systems: MacPro, MacBook Pro, ASUS eeePC netbook, Dell D600 laptop, a small cluster of Linux Web servers
Displays: Apple Cinema Display 30", Apple Cinema Display 23"
Ergo Devices: Zody Chair, Nightingale CXO, Somaform, Theraball, 3M AKT180LE Keyboard Tray

Offline microsoft windows

  • Blue Troll of Death
  • * Exalted Elder
  • Posts: 3621
  • President of geekhack.org
    • Get Internet Explorer 6
Children giving out free lemonade is destroying America
« Reply #58 on: Wed, 07 July 2010, 11:03:48 »
Funny how you're against the us pro-lifer's, but not against the folks who have kids in their teens.
CLICK HERE!     OFFICIAL PRESIDENT OF GEEKHACK.ORG    MAKE AMERICA GREAT AGAIN MERRY CHRISTMAS

Offline ch_123

  • * Exalted Elder
  • Posts: 5860
Children giving out free lemonade is destroying America
« Reply #59 on: Wed, 07 July 2010, 11:09:17 »
What's your solution to that? Shoot them?

Offline wellington1869

  • Posts: 2885
Children giving out free lemonade is destroying America
« Reply #60 on: Wed, 07 July 2010, 11:18:07 »
Quote from: microsoft windows;200305
Funny how you're against the us pro-lifer's, but not against the folks who have kids in their teens.


funny how pro-lifers are usually for the death penalty.

"Blah blah blah grade school blah blah blah IBM PS/2s blah blah blah I like Model Ms." -- Kishy

using: ms 7000/Das 3

Offline ch_123

  • * Exalted Elder
  • Posts: 5860
Children giving out free lemonade is destroying America
« Reply #61 on: Wed, 07 July 2010, 11:19:33 »
Makes sense

"Hurr durr Jesus blah blah blah America herp-de-derp"

Offline microsoft windows

  • Blue Troll of Death
  • * Exalted Elder
  • Posts: 3621
  • President of geekhack.org
    • Get Internet Explorer 6
Children giving out free lemonade is destroying America
« Reply #62 on: Wed, 07 July 2010, 11:21:20 »
Outlaw abortion and discourage teen sex.
CLICK HERE!     OFFICIAL PRESIDENT OF GEEKHACK.ORG    MAKE AMERICA GREAT AGAIN MERRY CHRISTMAS

Offline wellington1869

  • Posts: 2885
Children giving out free lemonade is destroying America
« Reply #63 on: Wed, 07 July 2010, 11:22:25 »
Quote from: ch_123;200312
Makes sense

"Hurr durr Jesus blah blah blah America herp-de-derp"


lol

"big guv'ment!  big guv'ment! BIG GUV'MENT!!!!  
big guv'ment. Herp-de-derp."

Sadly this is the level of the political discourse even among our public intellectuals and mainstream news outlets today. Its bloody pathetic. It brings out and empowers people like MW (tea party!!!!)  who wouldnt crack open a history book to save their life. Or even be familiar with any notion of cause and effect in their diagnoses and prescriptions.

I'll say this for democracy; for all its virtues, it honestly does appeal to the lowest common denominator.  Which puts a great burden on the nation, because if we cant keep lifting that lowest denominator, the entire ship goes down with them.
« Last Edit: Wed, 07 July 2010, 11:25:51 by wellington1869 »

"Blah blah blah grade school blah blah blah IBM PS/2s blah blah blah I like Model Ms." -- Kishy

using: ms 7000/Das 3

Offline kishy

  • Posts: 1576
  • Location: Windsor, ON Canada
  • Eye Bee M
    • http://kishy.ca/
Children giving out free lemonade is destroying America
« Reply #64 on: Wed, 07 July 2010, 11:26:40 »
MW, you're hung up on the idea that healthcare is being made cheaper. That is the case, but you're hung up on it in the wrong way.

The reason it is cheaper to the end user is that everyone puts into the system, unlike what you folks currently have (everyone has their own individual system that they put into and despite putting into it for years still pay huge out of pocket expenses).

Everyone equally puts into the system, the system equally puts out when you seek service. Because the government isn't and should not be a profit-seeking entity, there is nothing to gain by denying you, so you always get your service (and because it's all handled by the same people - ensuring you are a citizen, ensuring you pay your taxes, ensuring you have your coverage) there is no "LOL LET'S SEE YOUR BANK STATEMENT BEFORE WE CUT OUT THAT INGROWN TOENAIL", etc.

Oh, and as for abortion: provide one state-funded abortion (or multiple simultaneous, whatever the case may be, so long as it is one 'session', not a separate pregnancy - accomodating twins, etc here), permit people to have more but require them to pay beyond the first one.
« Last Edit: Wed, 07 July 2010, 11:29:30 by kishy »
Enthusiast of springs which buckle noisily: my keyboards
Want to learn about the Kishsaver?
kishy.ca

Offline Rajagra

  • Posts: 1930
Children giving out free lemonade is destroying America
« Reply #65 on: Wed, 07 July 2010, 11:27:45 »
Quote from: microsoft windows;200314
Outlaw abortion and discourage teen sex.


Neither of those will happen while middle-aged men run the country. :rofl:

Offline wellington1869

  • Posts: 2885
Children giving out free lemonade is destroying America
« Reply #66 on: Wed, 07 July 2010, 11:30:43 »
Quote from: microsoft windows;200314
Outlaw abortion and discourage teen sex.


I get it now -- you're not a commie, you're al queda!

"Blah blah blah grade school blah blah blah IBM PS/2s blah blah blah I like Model Ms." -- Kishy

using: ms 7000/Das 3

Offline JaccoW

  • Fire Typer!!
  • * Elevated Elder
  • Posts: 2003
  • Keyboard is Lava!
Children giving out free lemonade is destroying America
« Reply #67 on: Wed, 07 July 2010, 12:06:41 »
Quote from: microsoft windows;200314
Outlaw abortion and discourage teen sex.

Since when does outlawing help? It will just go/stay underground. Or people will DIY.

Discourage sex? How? Why!? Just properly educate them on safe sex.
As long as there are still people that think 'coitus interruptus' is a safe contraceptive there is a lot to do.
« Last Edit: Wed, 07 July 2010, 12:36:25 by JaccoW »
|||Daily driver: Duck Orion TKL
|||My other keyboards :
More
|||The Original|Home|Work|Numpad|Play|Endgame|Keycaps
x
|Déck Legend Frost|Keycool 87 LE|Leopold FC660M|FC 210TP|Raptor K1 Gaming|Duck Orion TKL|My keycaps & sets
|Pics|Pics|Pics|Pics|Pics|Pics

|||Want to know what Keycap stores there are? Check out my Keyboard Pearltree and my (FS/FT/WTB) thread

Offline Mental Hobbit

  • Posts: 461
Children giving out free lemonade is destroying America
« Reply #68 on: Wed, 07 July 2010, 12:07:26 »
Quote from: microsoft windows;200314
discourage teen sex.


Yeah. And finally make a law against crime.
Typing on blues.

Offline wellington1869

  • Posts: 2885
Children giving out free lemonade is destroying America
« Reply #69 on: Wed, 07 July 2010, 12:09:38 »
we can be like saudi arabia where you can get flogged for kissing in public! :)  Yay! MW for president!

"Blah blah blah grade school blah blah blah IBM PS/2s blah blah blah I like Model Ms." -- Kishy

using: ms 7000/Das 3

Offline microsoft windows

  • Blue Troll of Death
  • * Exalted Elder
  • Posts: 3621
  • President of geekhack.org
    • Get Internet Explorer 6
Children giving out free lemonade is destroying America
« Reply #70 on: Wed, 07 July 2010, 12:10:33 »
I don't have to work hard to troll this thread...
CLICK HERE!     OFFICIAL PRESIDENT OF GEEKHACK.ORG    MAKE AMERICA GREAT AGAIN MERRY CHRISTMAS

Offline wellington1869

  • Posts: 2885
Children giving out free lemonade is destroying America
« Reply #71 on: Wed, 07 July 2010, 12:14:51 »
Quote from: microsoft windows;200347
I don't have to work hard to troll this thread...


how soon before a troll (rand paul maybe?) is elected president?

I expect palin (another troll, albeit good looking) and the repubs are going to pull out all the stops in the next election; if you think we've seen crazy so far, its nothing compared to whats coming. They've got all these candidates willing to say anything (including the threat of violence agianst the state) to rile up their violent base.  All it takes is for everyone else to stay home (like happened in massachusetts and scott brown).

the tea partiers (and the repubs right now) are basically political trolls; they misdirect, derail, relish in confrontation for its own sake, and generally keep govt from doing its job in any way they can. Trolls, in other words.

"Blah blah blah grade school blah blah blah IBM PS/2s blah blah blah I like Model Ms." -- Kishy

using: ms 7000/Das 3

Offline gr1m

  • Posts: 439
Children giving out free lemonade is destroying America
« Reply #72 on: Wed, 07 July 2010, 12:15:52 »
You've reached such a legendary troll status that all you need to do these days is wake up in the morning to troll threads.

Offline microsoft windows

  • Blue Troll of Death
  • * Exalted Elder
  • Posts: 3621
  • President of geekhack.org
    • Get Internet Explorer 6
Children giving out free lemonade is destroying America
« Reply #73 on: Wed, 07 July 2010, 12:22:54 »
Hey. I got nothing better to do here at work.



Oh, and what's that stupid thing that looks like a 4-legged maggot that's your avatar?
CLICK HERE!     OFFICIAL PRESIDENT OF GEEKHACK.ORG    MAKE AMERICA GREAT AGAIN MERRY CHRISTMAS

Offline wellington1869

  • Posts: 2885
Children giving out free lemonade is destroying America
« Reply #74 on: Wed, 07 July 2010, 12:28:28 »
well i've got a 2pm meeting to rescue me.  i hope they have donuts.

"Blah blah blah grade school blah blah blah IBM PS/2s blah blah blah I like Model Ms." -- Kishy

using: ms 7000/Das 3

Offline kishy

  • Posts: 1576
  • Location: Windsor, ON Canada
  • Eye Bee M
    • http://kishy.ca/
Children giving out free lemonade is destroying America
« Reply #75 on: Wed, 07 July 2010, 12:30:02 »
It's a llama onto which he has placed the Trollface (or Coolface if you're a...well whatever)
Enthusiast of springs which buckle noisily: my keyboards
Want to learn about the Kishsaver?
kishy.ca

Offline microsoft windows

  • Blue Troll of Death
  • * Exalted Elder
  • Posts: 3621
  • President of geekhack.org
    • Get Internet Explorer 6
Children giving out free lemonade is destroying America
« Reply #76 on: Wed, 07 July 2010, 12:31:58 »
It looks more like a four-legged version of the kind of maggot you find in week-old road kill.
CLICK HERE!     OFFICIAL PRESIDENT OF GEEKHACK.ORG    MAKE AMERICA GREAT AGAIN MERRY CHRISTMAS

Offline maclover

  • Posts: 11
Children giving out free lemonade is destroying America
« Reply #77 on: Wed, 07 July 2010, 12:40:12 »
Quote from: wellington1869;200149
whats the source on that? Health care is designed to pay for itself (unlike our wars) via savings and efficiencies compared to our current health care distribution system; so that graph is false.

the wars were supposed to pay for themselves too using oil among other things

Offline wellington1869

  • Posts: 2885
Children giving out free lemonade is destroying America
« Reply #78 on: Wed, 07 July 2010, 12:46:48 »
Quote from: maclover;200364
the wars were supposed to pay for themselves too using oil among other things


i dont think anyone except cheney believed that.

"Blah blah blah grade school blah blah blah IBM PS/2s blah blah blah I like Model Ms." -- Kishy

using: ms 7000/Das 3

Offline Phaedrus2129

  • Posts: 1131
Children giving out free lemonade is destroying America
« Reply #79 on: Wed, 07 July 2010, 13:01:29 »
Ugh, the stupidity...


"Socialized medicine is evil, these countries have socialized medicine are in financial trouble, ergo socialized medicine causes you to go bankrupt."

"We MUST have socialized medicine, the US doesn't have it and they have problems, ergo not having socialized medicine causes problems."

And neither side looks at the surrounding facts in ANY way.

Europe's financial troubles are, on the whole, caused by misappropriation of funds and poor investments, not their social programs.

America's health problems are caused by overeating and other vices, not by poor medical care. The greater cost is due in large part to greater use of medical services (we visit hospitals more, meaning we pay more) and due to general corruption and inefficiency and price gouging on the part of HMO's; you know, our last attempt at taking a step toward socialized medicine, that basically ****ed our whole medical industry.


Socialized medicine is an all-in proposition. Every time we take a half step it gets worse. I wouldn't mind properly-done socialized medicine, a la Denmark's system (hell, Denmark is nice enough I'd move there myself if it weren't that 90% of the property is only ownable by born citizens). Any bill that makes it through our legislature is going to be so hacked together and full of compromises that it just won't work. It will make things worse. Hell, it's already affecting my family adversely. Due to some retarded bylaw or something, my mom has to--has to--get her medicine delivered by mail, rather than simply taking her prescription to Carr's Drugs. This has led to delays, her not getting medicine on time, the company in charge of shipping the drugs screwing up and sending $1400 worth of insulin to the house the day after we went on vacation even though we paid them extra to get it to us the day before we left, so it ended up rotting on the porch. And I no longer have an excuse to chat up the cute cashier. So thanks Obama, you've caused nothing but inconvenience for me so far.



There is nothing inherently wrong with socialized medicine. Socialized medicine in America, however, is a guaranteed fail.
Daily Driver: Noppoo Choc Mini
Currently own: IBM Model M 1391401 1988,  XArmor U9 prototype
Previously owned: Ricercar SPOS, IBM M13 92G7461 1994, XArmor U9BL, XArmor U9W prototype, Cherry G80-8200LPDUS, Cherry G84-4100, Compaq MX-11800, Chicony KB-5181 (SMK Monterey), Reveal KB-7061, Cirque Wave Keyboard (ergonomic rubber domes), NMB RT101 (rubber dome), Dell AT101W

Offline hyperlinked

  • Posts: 924
Children giving out free lemonade is destroying America
« Reply #80 on: Wed, 07 July 2010, 13:10:54 »
Quote from: Phaedrus2129;200369
There is nothing inherently wrong with socialized medicine. Socialized medicine in America, however, is a guaranteed fail.


The operative word is "system" and the problems and advantages of each country's systems whether it's that country's healthcare system, taxation system, or political system has many moving parts and works (assuming that it does work) because the system works in concert between the different interest groups and within the cultural norms of that society. That's what it'd be really risky to go cold turkey and have socialized medicine in the US.

I'm not against socialized medicine. I just don't think it'd have a snowball's chance in hell of working in the current American zeitgeist. Twenty years later? Maybe.
-

Topre: Realforce 103U Cherry: Filco Majestouch 104 (Brown), Ione Scorpius M10 (Blue)
Buckling Spring: IBM Model M1391401 ALPS: Apple Extended Keyboard II (Cream), ABS M1 (Fukka/Black), MicroConnectors Flavored USB (Black)
Domes: Matias Optimizer, Kensington ComfortType, Microsoft Internet Keyboard
Scissors: Apple Full Sized Aluminum
Pointy Stuff: Razer Imperator, Razer Copperhead, DT225 Trackball, Apple Magic Mouse, Logitech MX1000, Apple Mighty Mouse
Systems: MacPro, MacBook Pro, ASUS eeePC netbook, Dell D600 laptop, a small cluster of Linux Web servers
Displays: Apple Cinema Display 30", Apple Cinema Display 23"
Ergo Devices: Zody Chair, Nightingale CXO, Somaform, Theraball, 3M AKT180LE Keyboard Tray

Offline gr1m

  • Posts: 439
Children giving out free lemonade is destroying America
« Reply #81 on: Wed, 07 July 2010, 13:15:20 »
It's a bunchie, not a llama. It's my custom edition. Orange + coolface. There are lots of variations.

Offline kishy

  • Posts: 1576
  • Location: Windsor, ON Canada
  • Eye Bee M
    • http://kishy.ca/
Children giving out free lemonade is destroying America
« Reply #82 on: Wed, 07 July 2010, 13:29:52 »
Quote from: gr1m;200371
It's a bunchie, not a llama. It's my custom edition. Orange + coolface. There are lots of variations.


Yes, it's bunchie.

But bunchie is a llama.
Enthusiast of springs which buckle noisily: my keyboards
Want to learn about the Kishsaver?
kishy.ca

Offline ch_123

  • * Exalted Elder
  • Posts: 5860
Children giving out free lemonade is destroying America
« Reply #83 on: Wed, 07 July 2010, 13:37:16 »
Quote from: Phaedrus2129;200369
America's health problems are caused by overeating and other vices, not by poor medical care. The greater cost is due in large part to greater use of medical services (we visit hospitals more, meaning we pay more) and due to general corruption and inefficiency and price gouging on the part of HMO's; you know, our last attempt at taking a step toward socialized medicine, that basically ****ed our whole medical industry.


There's a difference between health and healthcare. A person who lives and eats healthily is still susceptible to unforseen illnesses or acidental injury... And dealing with those problems can be extraordinarily expensive, irrespective of which country you are in, and how efficient the health system is.

Quote
I don't have to work hard to troll this thread...


"I was just trolling" is the oldest, and indeed most transparent excuse for being an idiot on the internet.
« Last Edit: Wed, 07 July 2010, 13:42:39 by ch_123 »

Offline maclover

  • Posts: 11
Children giving out free lemonade is destroying America
« Reply #84 on: Thu, 08 July 2010, 13:54:30 »
Hopefully if Obama gets reelected he can push for a public option in a couple of years and America can spend more of it's money on apple products and less on health care.

Offline kishy

  • Posts: 1576
  • Location: Windsor, ON Canada
  • Eye Bee M
    • http://kishy.ca/
Children giving out free lemonade is destroying America
« Reply #85 on: Thu, 08 July 2010, 18:25:40 »
Quote from: maclover;200759
Hopefully if Obama gets reelected he can push for a public option in a couple of years and America can spend more of it's money on apple products and less on health care.


This reads a lot differently after I re-read it and saw you said "reelected" rather than "rejected".
Enthusiast of springs which buckle noisily: my keyboards
Want to learn about the Kishsaver?
kishy.ca

Offline gr1m

  • Posts: 439
Children giving out free lemonade is destroying America
« Reply #86 on: Thu, 08 July 2010, 18:51:04 »
Quote from: kishy;200373
Yes, it's bunchie.

But bunchie is a llama.


No.

Offline kishy

  • Posts: 1576
  • Location: Windsor, ON Canada
  • Eye Bee M
    • http://kishy.ca/
Children giving out free lemonade is destroying America
« Reply #87 on: Thu, 08 July 2010, 19:01:52 »
Quote from: gr1m;200839
No.


The internet says bunchie is a llama.

Bunchie looks like a llama.

Bunchie is a llama.
Enthusiast of springs which buckle noisily: my keyboards
Want to learn about the Kishsaver?
kishy.ca

Offline gr1m

  • Posts: 439
Children giving out free lemonade is destroying America
« Reply #88 on: Thu, 08 July 2010, 19:09:04 »
Underlining and italics won't make me agree with you. Where does it state on the internet that bunchies are llamas?

Offline kishy

  • Posts: 1576
  • Location: Windsor, ON Canada
  • Eye Bee M
    • http://kishy.ca/
Children giving out free lemonade is destroying America
« Reply #89 on: Thu, 08 July 2010, 19:15:33 »
Quote from: gr1m;200846
Underlining and italics won't make me agree with you. Where does it state on the internet that bunchies are llamas?


The Google.
Enthusiast of springs which buckle noisily: my keyboards
Want to learn about the Kishsaver?
kishy.ca

Offline EverythingIBM

  • Posts: 1269
Children giving out free lemonade is destroying America
« Reply #90 on: Sat, 10 July 2010, 00:12:43 »
Quote from: microsoft windows;200314
Outlaw abortion and discourage teen sex.


Outlawing abortion reduces freedom.

Now, most people who think abortion should be legal obviously don't think it's a WISE decision or good. But it still should be an option nonetheless.

It's kind of like how seat belts were made mandatory, people should have a choice even if it's a wrong choice.
Keyboards: '86 M, M5-2, M13, SSK, F AT, F XT

Offline Oqsy

  • Posts: 861
Children giving out free lemonade is destroying America
« Reply #91 on: Sat, 10 July 2010, 03:43:24 »
The Leviathan must fall.
[sigpic]Currently in use: Rosewill RK9000 and CH DT225[/sigpic]
"Private misfortunes make for public welfare."

Offline ch_123

  • * Exalted Elder
  • Posts: 5860
Children giving out free lemonade is destroying America
« Reply #92 on: Sat, 10 July 2010, 05:24:14 »
Quote from: EverythingIBM;201197
Outlawing abortion reduces freedom.

Now, most people who think abortion should be legal obviously don't think it's a WISE decision or good. But it still should be an option nonetheless.

It's kind of like how seat belts were made mandatory, people should have a choice even if it's a wrong choice.


Seat belts are mandatory because if someone else is in the car with you when you crash, you can come lose from your seat and be thrown around the car and end up flying into the other person and killing or seriously injuring them. It's also possible that you could go crashing through your windscreen and fly into someone outside of your car, although the former is something that has definitely been a serious problem that has led to lots of deaths.

Your seatbelt analogy is very appropriate because it underscores the same problem with abortion. Is the developing foetus a human or a clump of cells? If it's the former, then it's infanticide, which would be a very bad thing for the state to condone. If its a clump of cells, then it's ok, but no one has really been able to nail down an objective argument for one over the other because at that point its really a matter of interpretation. Much like seatbelts, the deciding variable is not yourself, but those around you who affect.

Abortion is something that I refuse to have an opinion on because it's such a complicated issue, and people tend to get all caught up if you have an opinion different to theirs. That said, I do veer towards the pro-choice side for the simple reason that the vast majority of pro-life people are 'Christian Al-Qaeda' types.

Offline gr1m

  • Posts: 439
Children giving out free lemonade is destroying America
« Reply #93 on: Sat, 10 July 2010, 07:58:05 »
Outlawing abortion is wrong, but I get enraged every time some dumb ****s who don't take correct birth control measures abort instead of being punished for being dumbasses, and being forced to look after the child.

Offline quadibloc

  • Posts: 770
  • Location: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
  • Layout Fanatic
    • John Savard's Home Page
Children giving out free lemonade is destroying America
« Reply #94 on: Sat, 10 July 2010, 09:23:09 »
Quote from: gr1m;201263
Outlawing abortion is wrong, but I get enraged every time some dumb ****s who don't take correct birth control measures abort instead of being punished for being dumbasses, and being forced to look after the child.
That would indeed be a very bad reason for outlawing abortion. It wouldn't be good for the child.

And for a woman to give up a child for adoption is so painful (she fears what may happen to the child; emotionally, it is like losing a part of herself) that it seems a terrible punishment. Particularly that it is often the case that a young woman will end up having sex without proper contraceptive precautions not because she intended to, but because her boyfriend became too enthusiastic... and she felt that a "No" might simply turn an amicable encounter into a rape.

In an absolute sense, of course, an amicable encounter under such a threat might seem not far from a rape, but while the threat may only be a perception in the woman's mind, having that perception and acting on it is not necessarily imprudent for all that.

If one combines this on the one hand, though, with other biological facts - basically, that new human organisms are formed through the integration of sperm and egg (syngamy) that follows fertilization but well precedes implantation; by seven weeks, which is rather early for most forms of abortion, the unborn baby has a beating heart, and a (partly) functioning brain - then outlawing abortion (except in emergency medical circumstances) seems to be demanded in the name of equal rights, just like outlawing Negro slavery.

Fortunately, it seems to me that such things as the "morning-after pill" do interrupt a pregnancy at a point where, while the biological life of the human organism has begun, it requires a specific philosophical perspective to be confident that the life of the human person has also already begun.

Offline Oqsy

  • Posts: 861
Children giving out free lemonade is destroying America
« Reply #95 on: Sat, 10 July 2010, 13:50:23 »
Abortion for any reason other than medical necessity or rape is just a sad sick way to escape responsibility for an action that was your own doing.  Abortion is the ultimate parental cop-out.  You made a child, but you can't be bothered with giving birth and raising it, or putting it up for adoption , so you snuff the kid.  Its the same attitude that Casey Anthony had, only she made the mistake of deciding this after the child was a few years old, and she did the job herself instead of hiring a "doctor" to do it.  

I'm POSITIVE this will set off a ****storm of goofy justification replies and ad hom attacks, so I won't bother checking back as it might cause me to become less than civil in other threads with those of you I otherwise like and enjoy talking with.
[sigpic]Currently in use: Rosewill RK9000 and CH DT225[/sigpic]
"Private misfortunes make for public welfare."

Offline ch_123

  • * Exalted Elder
  • Posts: 5860
Children giving out free lemonade is destroying America
« Reply #96 on: Sat, 10 July 2010, 14:00:10 »
Quote from: Oqsy;201303
I'm POSITIVE this will set off a ****storm of goofy justification replies and ad hom attacks, so I won't bother checking back as it might cause me to become less than civil in other threads with those of you I otherwise like and enjoy talking with.


And the definition of a troll is...

Offline microsoft windows

  • Blue Troll of Death
  • * Exalted Elder
  • Posts: 3621
  • President of geekhack.org
    • Get Internet Explorer 6
Children giving out free lemonade is destroying America
« Reply #97 on: Sat, 10 July 2010, 14:06:18 »
You.
CLICK HERE!     OFFICIAL PRESIDENT OF GEEKHACK.ORG    MAKE AMERICA GREAT AGAIN MERRY CHRISTMAS

Offline kishy

  • Posts: 1576
  • Location: Windsor, ON Canada
  • Eye Bee M
    • http://kishy.ca/
Children giving out free lemonade is destroying America
« Reply #98 on: Sat, 10 July 2010, 14:15:37 »
Quote from: Oqsy;201303
Abortion for any reason other than medical necessity or rape is just a sad sick way to escape responsibility for an action that was your own doing.  Abortion is the ultimate parental cop-out.  You made a child, but you can't be bothered with giving birth and raising it, or putting it up for adoption , so you snuff the kid.  Its the same attitude that Casey Anthony had, only she made the mistake of deciding this after the child was a few years old, and she did the job herself instead of hiring a "doctor" to do it.  

I'm POSITIVE this will set off a ****storm of goofy justification replies and ad hom attacks, so I won't bother checking back as it might cause me to become less than civil in other threads with those of you I otherwise like and enjoy talking with.

This is why, in my suggestion, there would only be one state-provided abortion and the remainder would be on the dime of the person having the abortion (assuming the same person wasn't raped on numerous occasions, for which a provision would have to exist).

Abortions should be 100% legal for anyone to do. If you're going to outlaw abortions, you should outlaw body mods like piercings involving dermal punches because living human tissue dies in the process. And outlaw tanning, and outlaw smoking entirely, and drinking, and anything else that kills cells of any kind.

A baby (for lack of a better term - I'd say the offspring is not offspring yet, not a baby yet, etc) is not, in my opinion, a being with his/her own rights until the cord is cut. Until that time, he or she is a fixed part of the mother's body and it's the mother's decision entirely what happens.
Enthusiast of springs which buckle noisily: my keyboards
Want to learn about the Kishsaver?
kishy.ca

Offline microsoft windows

  • Blue Troll of Death
  • * Exalted Elder
  • Posts: 3621
  • President of geekhack.org
    • Get Internet Explorer 6
Children giving out free lemonade is destroying America
« Reply #99 on: Sat, 10 July 2010, 14:18:49 »
Quote from: Oqsy;201303
Abortion for any reason other than medical necessity or rape is just a sad sick way to escape responsibility for an action that was your own doing.  Abortion is the ultimate parental cop-out.  You made a child, but you can't be bothered with giving birth and raising it, or putting it up for adoption , so you snuff the kid.  Its the same attitude that Casey Anthony had, only she made the mistake of deciding this after the child was a few years old, and she did the job herself instead of hiring a "doctor" to do it.  

I'm POSITIVE this will set off a ****storm of goofy justification replies and ad hom attacks, so I won't bother checking back as it might cause me to become less than civil in other threads with those of you I otherwise like and enjoy talking with.


Finally. Someone stepped up to the plate and said what's right.

Sex is about reproduction. If you don't want to have a kid, don't have sex. Simple. Unless somebody raped you, there should be no excuse to have an abortion.

For those of you all who support abortion, I'd recommend doing some in-depth research on how in a late-term abortion, the doctor drills out the baby's brains, cuts up the baby, and then throws it all in a bag and throws it away. It's disgraceful and disgusting and should be outlawed.
CLICK HERE!     OFFICIAL PRESIDENT OF GEEKHACK.ORG    MAKE AMERICA GREAT AGAIN MERRY CHRISTMAS