Author Topic: Backspace on top of the enter key ala HHKB style, Is it ergonomic?  (Read 9585 times)

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Offline ideus

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Backspace on top of the enter key ala HHKB style, Is it ergonomic?
« on: Mon, 01 February 2016, 11:40:02 »
Are you using the HHKB layout? What has been your experience with the backspace on top of the enter key? and if you have had used a top row 1u backspace, how does it compare with the HHKB location of the back space.

Offline jwaz

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Re: Backspace on top of the enter key ala HHKB style, Is it ergonomic?
« Reply #1 on: Mon, 01 February 2016, 11:49:05 »
The Sun Type-3 layout with the backspace above enter and the control as caps is about as ergonomic as you're going to get in a standard staggered keyboard IMO.

I really hate the 1u backspace, it's prevalent on a lot of my old Alps stuff and is always a pain. I don't really see them as comparable, at least location wise.
« Last Edit: Mon, 01 February 2016, 16:47:48 by jwaz »

Offline dgneo

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Re: Backspace on top of the enter key ala HHKB style, Is it ergonomic?
« Reply #2 on: Mon, 01 February 2016, 12:12:28 »
Are you using the HHKB layout? What has been your experience with the backspace on top of the enter key? and if you have had used a top row 1u backspace, how does it compare with the HHKB location of the back space.

I've pretty large hands (10in pinky to thumb), and it's infinitely easier using the HHKB layout, as everything is that much closer. I definitely can feel a bigger strain reaching for the R1 Backspace as opposed to the R2.

Not only that, but the R3 Control location on the HHKB is much easier to reach, compared to the standard location.

Offline Bromono

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Re: Backspace on top of the enter key ala HHKB style, Is it ergonomic?
« Reply #3 on: Mon, 01 February 2016, 12:13:58 »
Replace caps lock with backspace :)

I liked it a lot so far. Take a bit to get used to though.

Offline ideus

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Re: Backspace on top of the enter key ala HHKB style, Is it ergonomic?
« Reply #4 on: Mon, 01 February 2016, 12:15:16 »
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Offline TalkingTree

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Re: Backspace on top of the enter key ala HHKB style, Is it ergonomic?
« Reply #5 on: Mon, 01 February 2016, 12:23:41 »
It's much much better. That made me switch from ISO to ANSI Enter because of that. It's far better approachable with the pinky and it takes only a few hours of practice to get used.
R1 2u backspace is stressful to use because it makes me stretch my right hand. 1u backspace (as last key in the row) is simply a pain in the neck to use.
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Offline thekkyon

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Re: Backspace on top of the enter key ala HHKB style, Is it ergonomic?
« Reply #6 on: Fri, 05 February 2016, 05:25:45 »
Are you using the HHKB layout? What has been your experience with the backspace on top of the enter key? and if you have had used a top row 1u backspace, how does it compare with the HHKB location of the back space.

I've pretty large hands (10in pinky to thumb), and it's infinitely easier using the HHKB layout, as everything is that much closer. I definitely can feel a bigger strain reaching for the R1 Backspace as opposed to the R2.

Not only that, but the R3 Control location on the HHKB is much easier to reach, compared to the standard location.

I have almost as big hand and was wondering what using FN + Arrow cluster on HHKB was like? Considering getting HHKB but FN location seems awkward to me.

Offline dgneo

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Re: Backspace on top of the enter key ala HHKB style, Is it ergonomic?
« Reply #7 on: Fri, 05 February 2016, 05:39:04 »
Are you using the HHKB layout? What has been your experience with the backspace on top of the enter key? and if you have had used a top row 1u backspace, how does it compare with the HHKB location of the back space.

I've pretty large hands (10in pinky to thumb), and it's infinitely easier using the HHKB layout, as everything is that much closer. I definitely can feel a bigger strain reaching for the R1 Backspace as opposed to the R2.

Not only that, but the R3 Control location on the HHKB is much easier to reach, compared to the standard location.

I have almost as big hand and was wondering what using FN + Arrow cluster on HHKB was like? Considering getting HHKB but FN location seems awkward to me.

I love it personally. I use my pinky for FN, and index + middle for the arrow cluster. Because the FN is on the same row as the down arrow, it's very comfortable to use in my opinion.

In contrast, I have the same arrow key setup on my 60% board that doesn't have the split shift like the HHKB, and it's much more of a pain to use the arrow keys when the FN isn't on the same row as the down arrow. More stretching of the hand involved.

Offline Fullcream

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Re: Backspace on top of the enter key ala HHKB style, Is it ergonomic?
« Reply #8 on: Fri, 05 February 2016, 05:47:27 »
Yes. Feels more ergonomic to me and it surprisingly took a very short time to get used to. I'm not a programmer so I remapped backslash to backspace so it can be the same for whatever I'm typing with.
Also I don't think I ever accidentally pressed enter instead of backspace which I've read that some people were worried about.

Offline ideus

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Re: Backspace on top of the enter key ala HHKB style, Is it ergonomic?
« Reply #9 on: Fri, 05 February 2016, 16:18:15 »
I recently learned that Sun keyboards, that have a very similar layout to the HHKB, changed over time to standard ANSI.


Offline Niomosy

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Re: Backspace on top of the enter key ala HHKB style, Is it ergonomic?
« Reply #10 on: Fri, 05 February 2016, 23:37:17 »
I've been dealing with Solaris and Sun systems / keyboards for about 22 years now.  I've used that layout on Sun Type 4 and 5 boards and never cared for it.  In fact, I've got that type of layout on the Type 5 in my closet.  The \| key is too far out of reach for me as a UNIX admin. 

As a UNIX admin that games, I prefer ANSI.

Offline ideus

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Re: Backspace on top of the enter key ala HHKB style, Is it ergonomic?
« Reply #11 on: Sat, 06 February 2016, 10:11:33 »
I've been dealing with Solaris and Sun systems / keyboards for about 22 years now.  I've used that layout on Sun Type 4 and 5 boards and never cared for it.  In fact, I've got that type of layout on the Type 5 in my closet.  The \| key is too far out of reach for me as a UNIX admin. 

As a UNIX admin that games, I prefer ANSI.

It seems that the HHKB layout is just the 60% section of a full size UNIX keyboard, that was kept pretty much unaltered; thus, the urban legend around a specially designed HHKB seems to be just an elaborated effort to overhype its "design" and a to create a cult status for what it is basically just an embellished rubber dome keyboard with empty spaces on its bottom corners.

Offline davkol

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Re: Backspace on top of the enter key ala HHKB style, Is it ergonomic?
« Reply #12 on: Sat, 06 February 2016, 13:44:22 »
HHKB is a combination of Sun Type 3 and Apple M0110 keyboard layout.

Offline ideus

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Re: Backspace on top of the enter key ala HHKB style, Is it ergonomic?
« Reply #13 on: Sat, 06 February 2016, 13:49:55 »



Another iteration

« Last Edit: Sat, 06 February 2016, 13:52:18 by ideus »

Offline iLLucionist

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Re: Backspace on top of the enter key ala HHKB style, Is it ergonomic?
« Reply #14 on: Sat, 06 February 2016, 19:02:18 »
I love it. Though I must admit that it was difficult to retrain where the "\" (backslash) is. It is my leader key in vim and it was so hardwired in my muscle memory that it took me a month before I did it effortless. But the backspace above enter... really like it.
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Offline Niomosy

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Re: Backspace on top of the enter key ala HHKB style, Is it ergonomic?
« Reply #15 on: Mon, 08 February 2016, 12:28:27 »
I've always wondered something.  Why the heavy preference for the Fn key on the right-hand side.  I've always felt laptop makers got the layout right by putting it on the left side. 

Offline iLLucionist

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Re: Backspace on top of the enter key ala HHKB style, Is it ergonomic?
« Reply #16 on: Mon, 08 February 2016, 14:19:42 »
I've been dealing with Solaris and Sun systems / keyboards for about 22 years now.  I've used that layout on Sun Type 4 and 5 boards and never cared for it.  In fact, I've got that type of layout on the Type 5 in my closet.  The \| key is too far out of reach for me as a UNIX admin. 

As a UNIX admin that games, I prefer ANSI.

It seems that the HHKB layout is just the 60% section of a full size UNIX keyboard, that was kept pretty much unaltered; thus, the urban legend around a specially designed HHKB seems to be just an elaborated effort to overhype its "design" and a to create a cult status for what it is basically just an embellished rubber dome keyboard with empty spaces on its bottom corners.

Cool info, didn't knew that!
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Offline iLLucionist

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Re: Backspace on top of the enter key ala HHKB style, Is it ergonomic?
« Reply #17 on: Mon, 08 February 2016, 14:20:14 »
Show Image

Show Image


Another iteration

Show Image


I has that Apple keyboard! Do you know what switch it has? Is it Alps? Feels more like BS.
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Offline ddot

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Re: Backspace on top of the enter key ala HHKB style, Is it ergonomic?
« Reply #18 on: Mon, 08 February 2016, 14:47:48 »
Question for those who remap the backspace to above the enter on a standard ANSI keyboard.  Where do you map the now homeless backslash key?

Offline ideus

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Re: Backspace on top of the enter key ala HHKB style, Is it ergonomic?
« Reply #19 on: Mon, 08 February 2016, 14:50:24 »
Show Image

Show Image


Another iteration

Show Image


I has that Apple keyboard! Do you know what switch it has? Is it Alps? Feels more like BS.

I think it has simplified ALPS with weird salmon color stems.

Offline flabbergast

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Re: Backspace on top of the enter key ala HHKB style, Is it ergonomic?
« Reply #20 on: Mon, 08 February 2016, 14:59:00 »
I has that Apple keyboard! Do you know what switch it has? Is it Alps? Feels more like BS.
I think it has simplified ALPS with weird salmon color stems.
Precursor to ALPS: https://deskthority.net/wiki/Apple_M0110

Offline flabbergast

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Re: Backspace on top of the enter key ala HHKB style, Is it ergonomic?
« Reply #21 on: Mon, 08 February 2016, 15:01:51 »
The author/designer of the HHKB keyboard has been interviewed recently: https://www.massdrop.com/article/eiiti-wada-interview?mode=guest_open - you can read about how the layout came about.

Offline romevi

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Re: Backspace on top of the enter key ala HHKB style, Is it ergonomic?
« Reply #22 on: Mon, 08 February 2016, 15:03:51 »
I feel like I'm going to have the rudest awakening when I try a HHKB, but I pray it's all for the best. When I used to use Macs consistently the one thing I really liked over the standard Windows keyboard layout was Command right next to the space bar; it gave my left thumb something to actually do other than hover, doing practically nothing.

For now, I swapped the Control and Caps Lock on my keyboard for the first time in my life, this way to prepare me somewhat for the HHKB. I'm having a really hard time with it...

Offline Waateva

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Re: Backspace on top of the enter key ala HHKB style, Is it ergonomic?
« Reply #23 on: Mon, 08 February 2016, 15:05:15 »
I like Caps Lock backspace vs. HHKB backspace personally.
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Offline ideus

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Re: Backspace on top of the enter key ala HHKB style, Is it ergonomic?
« Reply #24 on: Mon, 08 February 2016, 15:07:36 »
The author/designer of the HHKB keyboard has been interviewed recently: https://www.massdrop.com/article/eiiti-wada-interview?mode=guest_open - you can read about how the layout came about.

I wrote him several months ago, he graciously answered some of my silly questions, that is great for a stranger nobody like me that sent a cold email out of nowhere. I know some of the background of the board, but the facts are undisputed and its layout was just taken out of old versions of the Sun UNIX systems keyboards, the rest are just urban legends for its adepts and cult makers. I respect others' preferences, of course.

Offline flabbergast

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Re: Backspace on top of the enter key ala HHKB style, Is it ergonomic?
« Reply #25 on: Mon, 08 February 2016, 15:14:40 »
Quote from: ideus
I wrote him several months ago, he graciously answered some of my silly questions, that is great for a stranger nobody like me that sent a cold email out of nowhere. I know some of the background of the board, but the facts are undisputed and its layout was just taken out of old versions of the Sun UNIX systems keyboards, the rest are just urban legends for its adepts and cult makers. I respect others' preferences, of course.
Pretty nice! But yea, he acknowledges that the Suns and Macintosh keyboard are HHKB's ancestors.
EDIT: Fixed formatting (sorry, ideus!)
« Last Edit: Mon, 08 February 2016, 15:21:22 by flabbergast »

Offline ideus

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Re: Backspace on top of the enter key ala HHKB style, Is it ergonomic?
« Reply #26 on: Mon, 08 February 2016, 15:18:42 »
I wrote him several months ago, he graciously answered some of my silly questions, that is great for a stranger nobody like me that sent a cold email out of nowhere. I know some of the background of the board, but the facts are undisputed and its layout was just taken out of old versions of the Sun UNIX systems keyboards, the rest are just urban legends for its adepts and cult makers. I respect others' preferences, of course.
Pretty nice! But yea, he acknowledges that the Suns and Macintosh keyboard are HHKB's ancestors.
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Offline iLLucionist

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Re: Backspace on top of the enter key ala HHKB style, Is it ergonomic?
« Reply #27 on: Tue, 09 February 2016, 04:42:19 »
I has that Apple keyboard! Do you know what switch it has? Is it Alps? Feels more like BS.
I think it has simplified ALPS with weird salmon color stems.
Precursor to ALPS: https://deskthority.net/wiki/Apple_M0110

Nice, thanks!
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Offline ideus

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Re: Backspace on top of the enter key ala HHKB style, Is it ergonomic?
« Reply #28 on: Tue, 09 February 2016, 07:11:14 »
I has that Apple keyboard! Do you know what switch it has? Is it Alps? Feels more like BS.
I think it has simplified ALPS with weird salmon color stems.
Precursor to ALPS: https://deskthority.net/wiki/Apple_M0110

Nice, thanks!

Very nice reference, thank you very much.

Offline Altis

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Re: Backspace on top of the enter key ala HHKB style, Is it ergonomic?
« Reply #29 on: Wed, 17 February 2016, 17:28:55 »
Are you using the HHKB layout? What has been your experience with the backspace on top of the enter key? and if you have had used a top row 1u backspace, how does it compare with the HHKB location of the back space.

I much prefer it directly above the Enter/Return key. I have it set that way on my KUL ES-87 as well via the dip switch.

It's funny how after two decades of lots of typing, I got used to the lower position in minutes and I struggle to go back to having it farther away. I suppose that does tell me which one feels more natural in the end.

I'm not super crazy about having Control in the traditional CapsLock position, though, mainly because I find it awkward to use Ctrl+ZXCV (pinky has to reach Ctrl while the longer fingers have to scrunch up).
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