The lowly spacebar - time for a new profile?

[Wilkie]

How much R&D has gone into spacebar design?  With the preference of some to flip spacebars, it seems the answer is "not enough."  Now this could be said of all keycaps, but focusing on just the spacebar would be much simpler and possibly of great benefit given frequency of use.

I wonder if it would be feasible to 3D print spacebars with new profiles, send to testers, refine the design, repeat...  Maybe people could make videos showing where they strike their current spacebars, and this could be used in the development?  Or, some other approach that could lead us to a better spacebar (for OEM, Cherry)?

You might ask, to what end?  Are new injection molds feasible?  I don't know.  If not, custom resin spacebars?

[mobbo]

This is something I'm very interested in :3

I've asked around and although some artisans have made some unique spacebars (KK, Binge, probably others), I think the feasibility issue is the biggest barrier. I don't know however, if they sculpted on top of an existing spacebar or if they cast the entire shape from scratch. I guess I've only really thought about artisan spacebars, rather than the ergonomics of standard spacebar design. 

I know everyone uses it differently as well. I pretty much only hit it with my left thumb. I'm not the biggest fan of flipping, but I agree that there is something to be said about this trend. I think I would prefer a slightly higher profile spacebar to what I'm used to. 

Hopefully this is an issue that has been discussed before and someone can offer more insight than I can.

[rowdy]

Space bar flipping started because some people with little girly hands somehow hurt their delicate fingers/thumbs on the "sharp edges" of the space bars.

I tried flipping a space bar, and it just looked and felt weird, so I put it back the way it was meant to go.

Maybe space bars should be made out of softer materials for people with softer hands?

[ccarlitos2]

Can confirm. Have wimpy golfer hands. Hands meant to hold sticks not sharp edges. I am a dirty flipper

[romevi]

Space bar flipping started because some people with little girly hands somehow hurt their delicate fingers/thumbs on the "sharp edges" of the space bars.

I tried flipping a space bar, and it just looked and felt weird, so I put it back the way it was meant to go.

Maybe space bars should be made out of softer materials for people with softer hands?

I tried doing it because it was all the rage a while back, but flipped them back because it felt dumb. Then I tried it recently again with a couple of my boards, gave it a week, and now I can't go back.

[rowdy]

Space bar flipping started because some people with little girly hands somehow hurt their delicate fingers/thumbs on the "sharp edges" of the space bars.

I tried flipping a space bar, and it just looked and felt weird, so I put it back the way it was meant to go.

Maybe space bars should be made out of softer materials for people with softer hands?

I tried doing it because it was all the rage a while back, but flipped them back because it felt dumb. Then I tried it recently again with a couple of my boards, gave it a week, and now I can't go back.

You have been lost to the dark side.

[starscream]

I think a spacebar that was intended to be "flippped", and was also slightly taller than a standard spacebar would be perfect (sorry if that description doesn't make sense)

would also like to mention that I'm 6'4 and my hands are far from being tiny or girly

[starscream]

I think a spacebar that was intended to be "flippped", and was also slightly taller than a standard spacebar would be perfect (sorry if that description doesn't make sense)

would also like to mention that I'm 6'4 and my hands are far from being tiny or girly

Maybe this pic will help describe what I mean

[rowdy]

I think a spacebar that was intended to be "flippped", and was also slightly taller than a standard spacebar would be perfect (sorry if that description doesn't make sense)

would also like to mention that I'm 6'4 and my hands are far from being tiny or girly

Show Image

Maybe this pic will help describe what I mean

OEM profile?

The only space bar I'd flip is DSA :p

[whentheclouds]

Space bar flipping started because some people with little girly hands somehow hurt their delicate fingers/thumbs on the "sharp edges" of the space bars.

and ergos are made by poosies who get wrist injuries from typing on freakin keyboards. what's your point?

starscream, your version seems too bulky no?

[nickw]

I tried the flipped bar about 20 years ago.  The logic is sound, depending how you position your hands.  If, like me, you rest your palms on the edge of your desk with your forearms at a slight upward angle(straight wrists) then you end up pushing the spacebar with the side of your thumbs, and you end up pressing right on the edge.  Flipping it prevents that.  Unfortunately on most boards I've used it puts the front edge of the spacebar really low, where you can't really have full contact with it anyway.
If you have a keyboard with little to no bezel on the front edge, flipping is fine, but otherwise it kind of goes from one extreme to the other.  I think the ideal would be to have a slight angle, say half way between what you get with a normal, and flipped bar.

[bocahgundul]

You can use a g20 spacebar from PMK store bro! 

its a really low profile btw perfect for small thumb 

[iLLucionist]

Spacebar? I just hit the switch with my bare thumb. I don't need no spacebar!

But seriously.. I also flip the spacebar whenever possible, it feels more natural because my thumb hits the spacebar exactly at the ledge and not on top like my fingers on the home row.

[nickw]

I think it's mostly just a matter of the sharp edge being kinda crap to type on.  No, it's not the end of the world or anything, but if you don't care about your keys being nice to type on, you may be on the wrong forum.

Currently my space key is not a "bar", but a 1u SA row 2 key. The angle is pretty ideal for me and it's comfortable to type on.  I think it would translate well to a conventional space bar.  if it was flat or convex like a conventional bar, it would be better.  As it is , the bottom edge does dig in slightly, because I use the side of my thumb,  Ideally, as 1u key, cylindrical at this same height and angle would be best, but that's definitely more of a niche thing than your average space bar on 99.8% of keyboards.

[iLLucionist]

I think it's mostly just a matter of the sharp edge being kinda crap to type on.  No, it's not the end of the world or anything, but if you don't care about your keys being nice to type on, you may be on the wrong forum.

Currently my space key is not a "bar", but a 1u SA row 2 key. The angle is pretty ideal for me and it's comfortable to type on.  I think it would translate well to a conventional space bar.  if it was flat or convex like a conventional bar, it would be better.  As it is , the bottom edge does dig in slightly, because I use the side of my thumb,  Ideally, as 1u key, cylindrical at this same height and angle would be best, but that's definitely more of a niche thing than your average space bar on 99.8% of keyboards.

Pic?

[jacobolus]

Spacebar should be taller, wider, not as long, and should be relatively flat to the key plane with no sharp corners. If you take e.g. Cherry profile keycaps, then a spacebar as tall as the number row is great.

Something like the black outline in this picture or maybe even slightly taller (compared to purple = standard DCS profile rows {1, 2, 3, 4, 4}, green = row-shifted DCS using rows {5, 1, 2, 4, flipped 1} instead):


For a standard row-staggered-grid style keyboard the 2.5 x 1.5 units of the Matias ErgoPro is a good size in the other two dimensions.


Given only existing keycap shapes, the best available is a flipped 2x1 backspace (number row) from a Cherry or DCS type profile. (The rightmost green keycap in the diagram above.) Or alternately, using an SA profile spacebar on an otherwise Cherry profile (or similar) keyboard. If you just flip the standard DCS/Cherry profile spacebar shape, you benefit from moving the key top away from the bottom letter row, but you now have a tilt which is in the wrong direction, when what you want is something flat.

[jacobolus]

Space bar flipping started because some people with little girly hands somehow hurt their delicate fingers/thumbs on the "sharp edges" of the space bars.

It’s more about poor desk setups, keyboard tilt angles, and typing style than girly hands.

If you’re tempted to flip the spacebar, that means you should either tilt the keyboard up more at the back, or raise your chair relative to your desk.

With that said though, the standard spacebar keycap shape is stupid.

[nickw]

If you’re tempted to flip the spacebar, that means you should either tilt the keyboard up more at the back, or raise your chair relative to your desk.

this will depend on hand size.   i am comfortable typing with. my forearms at a slightly upward angle,  palms resting on the edge of my desk. if I raise my chair,  i need a palm rest to keep my wrists straight,  and it also puts my fingers too much over the board putting a bit of extra strain on the tendons on my hands.

I don't really like flipped space bars,  but a 10 degree angle would work well for me.

[xondat]

I'm not a ****boy so I just raise my knuckles a bit and it feels nice on my thumb.

[romevi]

I'm not a ****boy so I just raise my knuckles a bit and it feels nice on my thumb.

For me it all depends on the height of the space bar, the angle of the board, and the wrist rest using. I don't rest my wrists on the actual wrist rest, but they do determine how high my hands rise. It never bothered me before, but having the space bar flipped after a couple of weeks has lent to some more comfort, or at least a placebo of comfort. And this is coming from someone who loves to slam his keys, especially the space bar.

[iLLucionist]

Does me remind of one interesting kb design of dell.. the Dell SK-8115. Although I will never publicly admit anything likable about the rubberdome dell kb's, this is kinda interesting now we're talking about spacebars:



(Image courtesy of benchmarkreviews.com)

[romevi]

Does me remind of one interesting kb design of dell.. the Dell SK-8115. Although I will never publicly admit anything likable about the rubberdome dell kb's, this is kinda interesting now we're talking about spacebars:

Show Image

(Image courtesy of benchmarkreviews.com)

Easy there. That keyboard is a fine rubberdome. As so is another one that Dell makes, but I forget the model number (check my sig). The space bar is fantastic, but hardly easily replicated for the mass amount of Cherry boards we have.

[jacobolus]

i am comfortable typing with. my forearms at a slightly upward angle,  palms resting on the edge of my desk. if I raise my chair,  i need a palm rest to keep my wrists straight,  and it also puts my fingers too much over the board putting a bit of extra strain on the tendons on my hands. I don't really like flipped space bars,  but a 10 degree angle would work well for me.

Type however is comfortable for you, stay safe out there, etc.

In my opinion, it’s usually better from a strain perspective to type without the palms, wrists, or arms resting on anything while actively typing. The main reason people I’ve seen when people feel like they need to have their palms on the table is when they are holding the keyboard far out in front of them, with their elbows quite a bit out in front of their bodies. Or sometimes the keyboard is close to the torso but they have their elbows sticking way out to the sides. In either case, the shoulder is stuck supporting the weight of the arm for a long period of time unless they compensate by resting the other end on some surface. It’s in my opinion usually more comfortable to type if the keyboard is brought in close to the torso, so that upper arms are hanging relatively straight down in a relaxed position. Then the shoulder and upper arm don’t need to do too much work holding the arms up.

Next, it’s important to keep the keyboard tilted so that it’s roughly parallel to the plane of the hands/forearms, so that when the wrists stay straight, the keys are all easy to reach. If you have a high desk relative to your torso, this means you need a steep keyboard tilt. If you can adjust your desk/chair so that the desk is lower relative to your torso, then you can keep the keyboard tilt roughly flat, or even slightly negatively sloped. In every case, the goal is to keep wrists in as neutral a position as possible.

Sometimes the extreme wrist pronation required for typing causes strain and discomfort that is partly alleviated by sticking the elbows out to the sides. People should do their best to reduce static strain to the extent possible. If sticking your elbows out and using a desk or palmrest gets you to a more comfortable and neutral position than the alternatives, do what you have to do I guess. This is why a split keyboard with adjustable split, turn, and tent angle is dramatically better than a single one-piece keyboard. It makes it much easier to get all of your joints and muscles into a relaxed neutral position.

[jacobolus]

Does me remind of one interesting kb design of dell.. the Dell SK-8115.

Show Image

Microsoft did a couple ergonomics studies a while back demonstrating the benefits of an extra-wide spacebar, and there are multiple companies making rubber dome boards like this. Unfortunately not too many discrete-switch keyboards have tried to follow.

[iLLucionist]

Does me remind of one interesting kb design of dell.. the Dell SK-8115. Although I will never publicly admit anything likable about the rubberdome dell kb's, this is kinda interesting now we're talking about spacebars:

Show Image

(Image courtesy of benchmarkreviews.com)

Easy there. That keyboard is a fine rubberdome. As so is another one that Dell makes, but I forget the model number (check my sig). The space bar is fantastic, but hardly easily replicated for the mass amount of Cherry boards we have.

This one felt pretty nice actually. I dislike 'm so much coz I was forced to use one for a year and I hadn't money to buy anything else.. those memories remain pretty vivid to me.

[Melvang]

Space bar flipping started because some people with little girly hands somehow hurt their delicate fingers/thumbs on the "sharp edges" of the space bars.

It’s more about poor desk setups, keyboard tilt angles, and typing style than girly hands.

If you’re tempted to flip the spacebar, that means you should either tilt the keyboard up more at the back, or raise your chair relative to your desk.

With that said though, the standard spacebar keycap shape is stupid.

I am with jacobolus here.  If the edge of the space bar is digging to much, you should probably look at you setup relating to ergonomics.  Though I think some people to just have girly hands.

[phosphoric]

I think a spacebar that was intended to be "flippped", and was also slightly taller than a standard spacebar would be perfect (sorry if that description doesn't make sense)

would also like to mention that I'm 6'4 and my hands are far from being tiny or girly

Show Image

Maybe this pic will help describe what I mean

OEM profile?

The only space bar I'd flip is DSA :p

in all honesty, i think dsa spacebars should be the default spacebar profile. it's so comfortable without looking silly - i put a dsa spacebar on my pok3r when i had cherry-profile caps everywhere else, and my thumbs found so much relief (despite whatever you say)

Space bar flipping started because some people with little girly hands somehow hurt their delicate fingers/thumbs on the "sharp edges" of the space bars.

I tried flipping a space bar, and it just looked and felt weird, so I put it back the way it was meant to go.

Maybe space bars should be made out of softer materials for people with softer hands?

I tried doing it because it was all the rage a while back, but flipped them back because it felt dumb. Then I tried it recently again with a couple of my boards, gave it a week, and now I can't go back.

when i first got into keyboards, i did the exact same thing. today the first modification i do to any of my keyboards is a spacebar flip - i don't even press any keys until the spacebar is flipped. the only issue i have with any of my keyboards is my alps keyboard; the stabilizer inserts can't be flipped, so my thumb is constantly crying when i use my lovely little alps64.

Does me remind of one interesting kb design of dell.. the Dell SK-8115. Although I will never publicly admit anything likable about the rubberdome dell kb's, this is kinda interesting now we're talking about spacebars:

Show Image

(Image courtesy of benchmarkreviews.com)

the other day, i saw an old keytronic dome board which had a spacebar whose angle resembled that of a flipped spacebar; the spacebars on some of these rubber domes are amazingly well-designed; almost like they're compensating shoddy switches with finger comfort....

[nickw]

I am with jacobolus here.  If the edge of the space bar is digging to much, you should probably look at you setup relating to ergonomics.  Though I think some people to just have girly hands.

the thing is,  that if everything else is set up the way you're comfortable,  making adjustments just to make that one key better will likely make other things worse.
You could make the same arguments for  keycap profiles.   don't be a wimp,  just adjust to oem.

[Melvang]

I am with jacobolus here.  If the edge of the space bar is digging to much, you should probably look at you setup relating to ergonomics.  Though I think some people to just have girly hands.

the thing is,  that if everything else is set up the way you're comfortable,  making adjustments just to make that one key better will likely make other things worse.
You could make the same arguments for  keycap profiles.   don't be a wimp,  just adjust to oem.

Just because it is comfy, does not mean that it is a position that is good for your wrist joints/carpal tunnel.  I am of the opinion that you are hitting the space bar from enough of an angle that you are hitting the edge sharp enough, then your wrists are bent, this is not good for carpal tunnel.

[jacobolus]

the thing is,  that if everything else is set up the way you're comfortable,  making adjustments just to make that one key better will likely make other things worse.

The point is, if you’re not comfortable without flipping the spacebar, there’s almost certainly something else set up wrongly. But hey, if you prefer it and your setup isn’t causing you discomfort or strain, go for it. The standard keyboard design is so irrevocably broken that any minor change you make is unlikely to make it worse. Be careful out there though. RSI is no joke.

You could make the same arguments for  keycap profiles.   don't be a wimp,  just adjust to oem.

“OEM” profile isn’t the worst ever, but it could really use more step between rows. It’s basically a bastardized version of Alps standard cylindrical profile from the late 1980s, but whoever was doing the copying didn’t really get it. (Where, similarly, the Alps/cherry/DCS/etc. profiles from the late 80s are bastardized versions of the Honeywell/IBM profiles from the 70s, made by people who also didn’t quite get it, but at least did a slightly better job copying.)

Topre caps have a pretty good shape, and space invader caps are even better. I think space invaders have pretty much the best cylindrical keycap profile around, though there might be some other okay ones floating around on obscure 80s keyboards. I also quite like the profile from the Apple Extended Keyboard.

DSA and SA, when used switches with straight stems, are just bad. Worse than “OEM”.

Better keycaps for standard keyboards could definitely be designed, but paying for injection molding tooling is damn expensive, and not many of the people selling keycaps understand or care what the design criteria should be. Cf. https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=62444

I think this “wimp” criticism is ridiculous though.

[nickw]

I am of the opinion that you are hitting the space bar from enough of an angle that you are hitting the edge sharp enough, then your wrists are bent

"sharp enough"?  The angle, at least in my case, is fairly subtle.  It's not that a normal space bar is actually that bad,  just that there's room for improvement IMO.  The 7 degree angle on the SA row 2 key I'm using for  space on this board is pretty close to ideal.  It feels like I'm still pressing the front edge of it a bit much, but that's proabably because it's a standard concave key, not a convex space bar.  I find that an inverted space bar on a normal board is a little too much angle, but I understand how some might prefer a bit too steep to a bit too flat.

As far as wrists being bent goes, they aren't.  They're actually totally relaxed, and neutral.  The weight is supported by the bones at the outer edges of my wrist, so there is no force on the soft tissues of my wrists.

I am probably not far from the textbook ideal for wrist position,  I just use a slightly lower chair to give me the best hand to keyboard angle, instead of using a negative slope board and a wrist rest.

I don't like wrist rests because the bones which normally support the weight of my hands sink into them which distributes the load across the whole wrist, where it can cause problems.

[nickw]

The point is, if you’re not comfortable without flipping the spacebar, there’s almost certainly something else set up wrongly.

I am with you there.  I don't like a flipped space bar either.  It goes from being just a little to flat, to being way too steep and weird feeling.  I thing the OP's question wasn't so much "to flip, or not to flip", or simply if there should be some kind of angle.  His "flipping" was just his way of dealing with it.  I mean, if he liked the flip that much, he would just do it, rather than questioning the standard design.  IMO it just goes from wrong one way to wrong another.  Which kind of wrong bothers you less is subjective.
 
I was being facetious with the "wimp" comment.  I just found it a little ironic that people in a keycap forum with their picky individual tastes would say someone has girly hands because they don't like the profile of that one big key.

DSA and SA, when used switches with straight stems, are just bad. Worse than “OEM”

.
I actually really like SA. I've never had a problem with the lack of step, but I do have quite long fingers so my finger tips are probably less flat on the board than yours.  The angles of the tops are follow the arcs my fingertips naturally travel in, and that makes them way smoother for me to type on.  Since I don't really have any problems with inter-row interference, they're close to ideal for me.
DSA, I don't mind too much.  I like the shape, but would prefer that they weren't all flat.  I like cherry caps marginaly more than DCS or OEM, but I don't actually have a real problem with them either.  They're not bad, they're just less good.

Better keycaps for standard keyboards could definitely be designed, but paying for injection molding tooling is damn expensive, and not many of the people selling keycaps understand or care what the design criteria should be. Cf. https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=62444

Yeah, and additionally, different hands will weight those criteria in different ways.  And it's not like there's really been a whole lot of innovation on that front to drive competition either.

[iLLucionist]

the other day, i saw an old keytronic dome board which had a spacebar whose angle resembled that of a flipped spacebar; the spacebars on some of these rubber domes are amazingly well-designed; almost like they're compensating shoddy switches with finger comfort....

I know what you mean... and right out of the box they feel relatively good for like the first month IMHO. They lure you in... But after that the caps shine and everything is really mushy. That's how I used to go through 3-4 of those boards a year when I was still a fulltime programmer.

[iLLucionist]

Topre caps have a pretty good shape, and space invader caps are even better. I think space invaders have pretty much the best cylindrical keycap profile around, though there might be some other okay ones floating around on obscure 80s keyboards. I also quite like the profile from the Apple Extended Keyboard.

Overall, I agree. Also, what I noticed with my first Topre board (HHKB) is that the caps are slightly smaller compared to OEM cherry. So it is more difficult to press two keys at once when pressing a bit to the side of a key.

However, I do not particularly like the bottom row (where the spacebar is) on Topre boards / caps, because they are tilted a bit too far inwards to the center of the board (a bit to far away from me). I do not really understand why they do that.

[jacobolus]

However, I do not particularly like the bottom row (where the spacebar is) on Topre boards / caps, because they are tilted a bit too far inwards to the center of the board (a bit to far away from me). I do not really understand why they do that.

I agree, it’s too aggressive. I think Topre boards have the same profile for the ZXCV row and the spacebar row? (I don’t have any Topre boards, so I can’t measure directly.) Using the same profile for those two rows is better if you plan to use your fingers to press the keys, but if you want to use your thumbs, then less slope is better.

The general idea is to have it be parallel to the table when the keyboard is tilted for a tall desk / low chair combination:


For comparison, here’s a picture of the original sculpted profile, the IBM beam spring / Selectric profile from the 1970s, on which the spacebar has the same tilt as the home row:


Or see these spherical keycaps from a mid-1980s Canon typewriter, same story:


Also similar is Signature Plastics discontinued SS profile, the purple outlines in the below diagram, and SP’s SA profile when used on keyswitches with tilted stems, the red outlines. (Black dot outline is DCS, which has a less aggressive step between rows but a more aggressively sloped spacebar.)

[iLLucionist]

The general idea is to have it be parallel to the table when the keyboard is tilted for a tall desk / low chair


Also similar is Signature Plastics discontinued SS profile, the purple outlines in the below diagram, and SP’s SA profile when used on keyswitches with tilted stems, the red outlines. (Black dot outline is DCS, which has a less aggressive step between rows but a more aggressively sloped spacebar.)

Show Image

Yeah nice pics and explanation! I think both my HHKB and RealForce have the spacebar row tilted more inward than parallel to my desk. Indeed a bit too aggressive. I really wonder why.. Perhaps they think you type exactly from the top downward, but I do not type like that. I do not have the board far away, but not directly under me either.