[IC] Sindarin (elven) set - Group Buy Coming on 14-Dec-2012

[esoomenona]

Are the legends only allowed in the colors shown in the picture? I don't see any brown...

[hashbaz]

My impression is that any of SP's regular colors can be used, as long as they have stock.  I think Melissa just posted that smaller set to keep it simple and not overwhelm people.

[guilleguillaume]

I think the PBT colours are different from the ABS ones.

I understand we are thinking about PBT dye sub.

[hashbaz]

Ah, yeah, guilleguillaume is quite right.  We need to choose from the PBT colors, which are different.

[esoomenona]

Is there an image of those?

[guilleguillaume]

Is there an image of those?

Yes.

Here we go:


Full size img link

[samwisekoi]

Ah, yeah, guilleguillaume is quite right.  We need to choose from the PBT colors, which are different.

Are dye-sub keys by definition PBT?  Re-reading all my mail with SP plastic type was not mentioned.  ABS was an assumption on my part.

 - Ron | samwisekoi

[hashbaz]

Yes.  ABS can't be dyesubbed and PBT can't be doubleshot.  The price tiers are different too.

[samwisekoi]

Yes.  ABS can't be dyesubbed and PBT can't be doubleshot.  The price tiers are different too.

Ah, that explains why dye-sub keycap price sheets were so much more expensive.  Thanks for the educatin'!

 - Ron | samwisekoi

[Matt3o]

please let's avoid pure white. considering that light green doesn't seem attractive I'd go light grey+light blue or lavender (grey elves) and maybe red for esc. Considering that elves don't play games I'd avoid WASD Of course that all depends on SP availability.

This weekend I'll work on graphics and colors. Stay tuned.

[Matt3o]

Some tests for modifier keys. They are all vector of course. I don't know which is the dye sub resolution but I believe we have to use the less complex designs. Please send more designs to take inspiration from, I'll try to vectorize them

[esoomenona]

I like row 2, third over. But if that is too complex, I think row 2, first one (is that the Timberland logo?). I'm interested in seeing what colors you guys think will work out.

[Matt3o]

nope, no timberland logo ( http://www.factory-outlet-stores.info/images/com_sobi2/clients/3326_timberland_mercedes_img.jpg )

I believe the usable ones are:
- row 1: #4
- row 2: #1,3
- row 3: #2,3,4 (4 for the arrows)
- row 4: #2,4
- row 5: #1,3 (3 for arrows)

[samwisekoi]

Some tests for modifier keys. They are all vector of course. I don't know which is the dye sub resolution but I believe we have to use the less complex designs. Please send more designs to take inspiration from, I'll try to vectorize them

Nice.  You could sell these as tattoo flash!  Contrariwise, you could look at some Celtic tattoo flash sites for inspiration.

I like the Tree of Life for the escape key, and something like the lower-right for the arrows.

Somewhere around here I have a knot-work font I bought to design, well, tattoos.  I'll try and find it and make some small, simple knot-work arrows for things like the enter and tab keys.

 - Ron | samwisekoi



 

[samwisekoi]

Last night I compared my proposed layout to Dan Smith's traditional layout and to QWERTY keyboards.  I tried to lay out the Elvish characters so they were on the same keys as their QWERTY equivalents.  Dan Smith's optimizes composition of actual Elvish language typing.  The two approaches yield very different layouts.

As a touch typist who normally types in English, mine is easier to use, as the phonetic and numeric equivalents are on the same keycaps as the ANSI version.  For example, I placed the Tengwar "G" character on the G key.  The traditional layout places the same character on the X key.  Also, I have placed the Tengwar numbers on the number row with the required modifiers above the numbers.  The traditional layout uses the number row for alpha characters, and places the modifiers in many places across the keyboard.

The two layouts are optimized for different uses and people.  I tried to optimize for touch-typists and people who were not type-setting in Elvish.

Visually, the two keyboards are quite different as a result.  My layout looks more like a QWERTY or AZERTY keyboard.  Dan Smith's is much more special-purpose.  IMHO, my layout also ends up looking more visually attractive.

Below are mockups of both layouts.  See for yourself which you prefer.  Mine is in blue, Dan Smith's is in red.

 - Ron | samwisekoi


The samwisekoi proposed layout.


The traditional Dan Smith layout.

[JSaintS]

IN for your layout!

we have to get this done!!!!!!!!!!!!! *_* I want it so much!

[Matt3o]

The problem with a custom design is that you need to remap the keys (or the font) if you want to really write in elvish. Okay, nobody will ever write elvish... but if we use the Dan Smith's layout you could set the tengwar font and it would work out of the box. Of course to touch type in elvish you need a lot of practice, but this is another story.

That being said, if we want to reach a lotr community or http://www.elvish.org/ they wouldn't agree on anything but Dan Smith's. Even though I agree that the "phonetic" keyboard is fancier.

[esoomenona]

Would it be possible to take the font and move the characters to reflect this set, calling it something else? (Just thinking out loud in case that's a deciding factor for some that we can work past. I like the look of Ron's. The other looks too busy in places.)

[hashbaz]

If including the larger Tolkein enthusiast community will get us a lot of orders then I'd say it's worth it to go with the layout they want.  Otherwise tbh I don't think we'll actually get off the ground.

[esoomenona]

Otherwise tbh I don't think we'll actually get off the ground.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=avuNsyMooXo&feature=player_detailpage#t=23s

[Matt3o]

testing colors. on darker colors we have to use black for legend, on light gray I'd use dark blue or dark green. Colors are PBT compatible. Grays can be warm (as shown in the pictures) or cold.

[samwisekoi]

Would it be possible to take the font and move the characters to reflect this set, calling it something else? (Just thinking out loud in case that's a deciding factor for some that we can work past. I like the look of Ron's. The other looks too busy in places.)

So, I was planning -- assuming this went anywhere -- to release it with an AutoHotKey script that enabled the use of any of the Dan Smith-compatible fonts to be used with this keyboard.  Also, FYI, there are several non-compliant font sets that were developed specifically to be "easier to use."

In any event, I've progressed the keycap layout template to be entirely vector graphics, and included some improvements I made while researching the layout conflicts.  I have only done the function, numeric/mod and alpha keys so far.  (Matt3o, I'll do a merge when you send me your SVG.)

 - Ron | samwisekoi

[gimpster]

I like the idea of this set. Are we still trying for a full double-shot set? If so, I think gold (like maybe the YBZ) on dark gray/black would look very cool.

[Matt3o]

I like the idea of this set. Are we still trying for a full double-shot set? If so, I think gold (like maybe the YBZ) on dark gray/black would look very cool.

nope, double shot would be ridiculously expensive. It will be dye-sub.

[Matt3o]

I'm working on a different layout. The exceptional work of Ron is based on an elvish-english transliteration proposed by Tolkien (and others). My idea is: how would it be a keyboard if designed by elves themselves? Fortunately we have a classifications of elvish characters, my layout is based on this classification. You may consider this an elvish-colemak keyboard. It's not finished, there are a couple of issues that should be solved, but I'd like to receive your feedback.

[samwisekoi]

I'm working on a different layout. The exceptional work of Ron is based on an elvish-english transliteration proposed by Tolkien (and others). My idea is: how would it be a keyboard if designed by elves themselves? Fortunately we have a classifications of elvish characters, my layout is based on this classification. You may consider this an elvish-colemak keyboard. It's not finished, there are a couple of issues that should be solved, but I'd like to receive your feedback.

It's beautiful.  Very nice job with bilateral symmetry.  Frankly, a layout like this should have been the standard all along for straight Sindarin typing.  Which mode did you use?

Since you are not finished (and I can completely relate to where you are in the process) I won't niggle you with specifics.  Some gerneral items to consider:
 - The characters above 6 through 9 are probably too tall to print.  Certainly the 8/z key is.  The pale blue box on the SVG file is the printable area per SP.
 - I don't see the curl modifiers (above 3-6 on my most recent.)  I found them annoying to place; did you omit them on purpose?
 - The decimal/duodecimal placement options were also annoying, and I see what you did and why.  Still, there is room for 10 and 11 after the zero, and IMHO they would complete the number row nicely.  (They are also a perfect fit for the function key row.)

Again, nice job.

Have you consulted the TP elves?

 - Ron | samwisekoi

p.s.  Do you have that background in SVG, even as a linked file?  Also, do you have it for 104-key layouts?  Could you send me a copy of either/both, please?

[Matt3o]

It's beautiful.  Very nice job with bilateral symmetry.  Frankly, a layout like this should have been the standard all along for straight Sindarin typing.  Which mode did you use?

Thanks samwisekoi, the mode is Tehtar.

- The characters above 6 through 9 are probably too tall to print.  Certainly the 8/z key is.  The pale blue box on the SVG file is the printable area per SP.

yes you are right, I'm concentrating on layout right now more than on positioning.

- I don't see the curl modifiers (above 3-6 on my most recent.)  I found them annoying to place; did you omit them on purpose?

I'd probably avoid them, anyone I'll post the final layout in 30 mins

- The decimal/duodecimal placement options were also annoying, and I see what you did and why.  Still, there is room for 10 and 11 after the zero, and IMHO they would complete the number row nicely.  (They are also a perfect fit for the function key row.)

Agreed, it all depends if I get enough keys for the missing glyphs.

Have you consulted the TP elves?

not yet, I wanted to show them the final layout (hopefully tomorrow).

p.s.  Do you have that background in SVG, even as a linked file?  Also, do you have it for 104-key layouts?  Could you send me a copy of either/both, please?

it is a modified version of DreymaR's colemak keyboard layout released under creative commons. I'll send it to you via email (no full 104 layout though).

[JSaintS]

more you guys are speaking more I want that set to be done I love it

[Matt3o]

okay here attached a pretty close to final elvish layout. It still misses the modifier keys, functions and so on, but I'd like to finalize the base layout for now. Thoughts? The mode used is Tehtar which misses some symbols (and so making the layout easier to do).

[samwisekoi]

okay here attached a pretty close to final elvish layout. It still misses the modifier keys, functions and so on, but I'd like to finalize the base layout for now. Thoughts? The mode used is Tehtar which misses some symbols (and so making the layout easier to do).

Very nice.  I only had time for a quick look, but it all looks good.

I could not find the under-dot modifier, however.

Also, I assume you are using the "o" to show placement of the modifiers as Dan Smith did in his guides.  Perhaps when we get to dye-sub, they could be in an off-color as he did in the text.

As before, very nice.

 - Ron | samwisekoi

[guilleguillaume]

okay here attached a pretty close to final elvish layout. It still misses the modifier keys, functions and so on, but I'd like to finalize the base layout for now. Thoughts? The mode used is Tehtar which misses some symbols (and so making the layout easier to do).

I like that layout a lot but I think the standard lettering looks a bit out of place.

[Matt3o]

don't worry, standard lettering will be replaced with elvish counterpart

[hashbaz]

okay here attached a pretty close to final elvish layout. It still misses the modifier keys, functions and so on, but I'd like to finalize the base layout for now. Thoughts? The mode used is Tehtar which misses some symbols (and so making the layout easier to do).

Show Image

This looks amazing, I hope this set happens. ;D

[Matt3o]

Very nice.  I only had time for a quick look, but it all looks good.

Please double check it when you get some time.

I could not find the under-dot modifier, however.

I have some troubles with vowels because there are multiple vowels tables and they say slightly different things

Also, I assume you are using the "o" to show placement of the modifiers as Dan Smith did in his guides.  Perhaps when we get to dye-sub, they could be in an off-color as he did in the text.

Indeed the 'o' is for disambiguation. good idea to dye sub them in different colors.

[samwisekoi]

Matt3o et al,

What would anyone think about using spherical keycaps (or some modern equivalent)?  That might enable us to develop a keycap set that could be deployed three ways:

1) Phonetically (e.g. samwisekoi layout)
2) Beautifully (e.g. Matt3o layout)
3) Pedantically (i.e. Dan Smith's layout)

If anyone could live with such keycaps, I'll take a pass at working out which and how many legends would be needed.

 - Ron | samwisekoi

[esoomenona]

I've never used spherical caps, a) because I don't like the look of them and b) I don't know what they feel like because I've never used them...

I'm not saying I would be opposed, because I guess I need to try them sooner or later, but...

Though the more I look at my orange lambda keys, the more I think I won't like them. But if others approve, then so be it.

[samwisekoi]

I've never used spherical caps, a) because I don't like the look of them and b) I don't know what they feel like because I've never used them...

I'm not saying I would be opposed, because I guess I need to try them sooner or later, but...

Though the more I look at my orange lambda keys, the more I think I won't like them. But if others approve, then so be it.

This would be so much easier with a curved board like the Model M uses; then all the 1x1 keys have the same profile by default, so you can swap them between rows without a penalty in feel.

I did a quick pass, and approximately 60% of Matt3o's layout can be made with "Traditional" keycaps.  With some effort, that number would rise to about 80%.

That would mean that if we went with a keycap profile that allowed swapping between rows, there would need to be an extra number row plus another 6-10 keycaps to enable a "best of all worlds" keycap set.

It was just a thought, but in my opinion, the extra cost and loss of ergonomics make it not worth the effort.

 - Ron | samwisekoi

[guilleguillaume]

I've never used spherical caps, a) because I don't like the look of them and b) I don't know what they feel like because I've never used them...

I'm not saying I would be opposed, because I guess I need to try them sooner or later, but...

Though the more I look at my orange lambda keys, the more I think I won't like them. But if others approve, then so be it.

I think they're talking about DCS profile from SP that looks like those pics I'm attaching. I really love them.

[samwisekoi]

I've never used spherical caps, a) because I don't like the look of them and b) I don't know what they feel like because I've never used them...

I'm not saying I would be opposed, because I guess I need to try them sooner or later, but...

Though the more I look at my orange lambda keys, the more I think I won't like them. But if others approve, then so be it.

I think they're talking about DCS profile from SP that looks like those pics I'm attaching. I really love them.

DSA profile, actually. http://keycapsdirect.com/key-caps.php  (KT would have the same effect.)

And those are the perfect keyboards for that profile!

 - Ron | samwisekoi

[guilleguillaume]

I didn't remember the correct name so I wrote the only one I knew instead of checking. Thanks for the correction

They are able to do relegendables keys also. We could get one per set to put in there our elvish name LOL



Here is the info about those keys.

[Matt3o]

maybe we should just be brave and choose a layout Dan Smith's is a pretty complex layout it would need a whole set by itself. I can't see it very compatible with the other two.

[esoomenona]

Actually, those look kind of nice. I'd be in for that. I guess I have to have at least one set of those to truly know, so why not these? I really like the locks keys with the light passthrough a lot. Are those part of this option?

[samwisekoi]

maybe we should just be brave and choose a layout Dan Smith's is a pretty complex layout it would need a whole set by itself. I can't see it very compatible with the other two.

Agreed.  But by using DSA, we could try to make both of ours compatible.

[edit]
Actually, it turns out that there are only three characters in the phonetic layout that are not on the beautiful layout. With DSA and a very few changes (mostly moving characters from the shift-layer of the number row) we could make a consolidated keyset.

I'd like to make the attempt.
[/edit]

Can I have the token for the evening?

 - Ron | samwisekoi

[esoomenona]

I'm really glad Ron and Matt3o are dedicated to working on this as they are. I truly hope it becomes a reality. Good job, guys!

[Matt3o]

both mine and Ron's are fictional keyboard layouts, I don't know how much sense it would make to have them exchangeable. It would make sense to have one of them compatible with Dan Smith's, maybe. I'd try to keep to keep things simple (and cheap) or we are not going to have this finalized. Also, is a flat layout appealing to all? Don't we risk to actually have less backers?

[samwisekoi]

both mine and Ron's are fictional keyboard layouts, I don't know how much sense it would make to have them exchangeable. It would make sense to have one of them compatible with Dan Smith's, maybe. I'd try to keep to keep things simple (and cheap) or we are not going to have this finalized. Also, is a flat layout appealing to all? Don't we risk to actually have less backers?

Yes.  After spending a couple of weeks with ascii-translation spreadsheets, I am convinced I need a phonetic keyset to ever type in Elvish.

However, I might also need a Latin subscript on the keys just to be sure.  But that is just me.

I have done the character comparison, and the image below shows the key overlaps without modifiers or punctuation. If the core keycap set looked like the one shown below, we could add about 10 keys per set and enable both an aesthetic, symmetrical solution like Matt3o's and a phonetic solution like mine.  But we would require a flat keycap profile to make it work at all.


Extended version of Matt3o Sindarin layout.

It would be good to hear from the other interested people regarding profile and layout preferences.

However, this is Matt3o's thread and Matt3o's call.  I'll pause and await guidance here or via PM.

 - Ron | samwisekoi

[asura]

I've been lurking on this for a while now and I thought I'd give you my thoughts on the matter.  First understand that this is from a purely aesthetic stand point - I'm never going to be typing in elvish, phonetically, or otherwise - samwisekoi and Matt3o's layouts are both really attractive the Dan Smith layout may be correct, but it is cluttered and dis-interesting.  The one current negative for me at the moment, are the arrows on the shift, shift lock, backspace, and return.

If your set (whichever aesthetic one it be) came in at a similar price as lysol's current GB, and wasn't an abnoxious combination of colours then I would have a set purely for the beauty/novelty.

My understanding also is that although the MOQ for key sets through lysol is 200 the number can be made up of different prints with a minimum of 30 per print and he's thinking about a round two next year... surely if you get a final image set completed we can rustle up 30 sets?

[Matt3o]

just to be clear. modifiers, arrows, return, functions, and so on are NOT finalized. We are still working on the core layout. It's more complicated than I thought to design an elvish layout which makes some kind of sense even thought completely fictional. I hope to be able to show you the 100% final version tomorrow, with the completed layout we will discuss of possible keycaps profiles and merges with Dan Smith's or others.

One crucial aspect is, who is taking care of the order to SP? I can take care of it, but I'm from Europe and there will be custom taxes involved, so I guess the cost would be 20% higher.

[Matt3o]

not yet finished, but we are getting closer. sorry this is taking forever

[samwisekoi]

not yet finished, but we are getting closer. sorry this is taking forever

Really nice.  I like the arrows quite a lot.

The mods* are wandering;  please advise when they have stabilized.

Also, the separator key is now in a better spot than upper-leftmost, but it is hard to reach with the right pinkie  Can it be moved inwards?

Finally, any chance of getting the "kw" for Q and the "ks" for X?  They are "zé" and "z|", respectively.  They make a reasonably matched pair for bilateral symmetry.

Thanks very much!

 - Ron | samwisekoi

*Modifiers disambiguation:  We keyboard hobbyists use the word "modifier" to mean the Shift, Enter and other non-entry keys scattered around the perimeter of the keyboard.  Unfortunately Tolkien used the exact same word to mean little extra serifs and diacritical marks that "modify" the sounds of the characters.  Above, I was using "mods" in the Tolkienesque manner.