Author Topic: Truly Ergonomic Model 109 w/ reds pics and info  (Read 9028 times)

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Offline Gerk

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Truly Ergonomic Model 109 w/ reds pics and info
« on: Fri, 16 December 2011, 11:50:59 »
My TE board arrived today.  So far so good.  The cherry reds feel wonderful (as they do on any other board).  It appears to be 6KRO from what I could test on OSX.  Not sure if/what it's optimized for but I could consistently get 6 keys at a time after testing various key clusters and randoms across the board.

It's going to take some time to get used to the shift/command being in different places without a doubt, and it doesn't seem like I can easily remap this in the OS -- Apple provides a way to remap modifier keys, but not the shift key:/  Also for other OSX users, when you first plug in a new keyboard it goes through the small wizard to help identify it ... it didn't like the key press at the second screen where it asks for the key immediately to the left of the right shift key.  If you are going to be setting it up as a standard ANSI board as I did pressing the 'normal' key that would be there (/?) worked ok.  

I'm glad that they changed the enter key to the bottom of the middle row of keys, I don't think I would have liked it being one key up from there (which is where it's pictured on their website).

So far so good, the matrix layout and key placements feel very good and it was little to no time to adjust to them for touch typing.  The other keys ... that will take some time, but I'm already starting to adjust.  I have some 40A O-rings in transit, which I will put on this board for sure.

I also tried, as sordna mentioned in another thread, swapping the enter keycap for another standard one, but it didn't work out due tot he shape of the keyboard casing around the bottom of the key.  I tried a few different keycap sizes, but none of them worked out well.  Some can fit (sort of) but nothing that is really usable.  That said I don't mind using my thumb on the enter key the way it is, it feels ok to me, but I'll get back to you all on that one after I've hit a few hundred more times.

I'm including a key reference pic as well (ripster please feel free to use in the wiki).  I did notice a blemish on one of the keys that I removed (the s key) but it's not visible until the key is removed so it's not a big deal to me.  The keys appear to be pad printed, but I'm no expert in that area.  It is cherry style stabalizers, or at least on the few larger keys that I removed it was.

Pics coming up (downloading them right now).
« Last Edit: Fri, 16 December 2011, 12:29:51 by Gerk »
Rosewill RK-9000RE (reds) | Das Keyboard Model S Professional Silent (browns) | Leopold TKL (browns) | F21-7D "Mechanical Keyboard" (Blue Alps) | Filco Majestouch TKL (blues) | Goldtouch V2 x 2 | Matias Ergo Pro x 2 | Kinesis Freestyle Pro (browns) | Kinesis Freestyle Edge (reds)

Offline sordna

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Truly Ergonomic Model 109 w/ reds pics and info
« Reply #1 on: Fri, 16 December 2011, 11:56:11 »
Congrats! Looking forward to pics and perhaps even a video!
Kinesis Contoured Advantage & Advantage2 LF with Cherry MX Red switches / Extra keys mod / O-ring dampening mod / Dvorak layout. ErgoDox with buzzer and LED mod.
Also: Kinesis Advantage Classic, Kinesis Advantage2, Data911 TG3, Fingerworks Touchstream LP, IBM SSK (Buckling spring), Goldtouch GTU-0077 keyboard

Offline Gerk

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Truly Ergonomic Model 109 w/ reds pics and info
« Reply #2 on: Fri, 16 December 2011, 12:00:10 »
Pics

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Rosewill RK-9000RE (reds) | Das Keyboard Model S Professional Silent (browns) | Leopold TKL (browns) | F21-7D "Mechanical Keyboard" (Blue Alps) | Filco Majestouch TKL (blues) | Goldtouch V2 x 2 | Matias Ergo Pro x 2 | Kinesis Freestyle Pro (browns) | Kinesis Freestyle Edge (reds)

fossala

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Truly Ergonomic Model 109 w/ reds pics and info
« Reply #3 on: Fri, 16 December 2011, 12:03:37 »
They look tiny.

Offline Input Nirvana

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Truly Ergonomic Model 109 w/ reds pics and info
« Reply #4 on: Fri, 16 December 2011, 12:08:10 »
Quote from: Gerk;472151
It's going to take some time to get used to the shift/command being in different places without a doubt, and it doesn't seem like I can easily remap this in the OS -- Apple provides a way to remap modifier keys, but not the shift key:/  Also for other OSX users, when you first plug in a new keyboard it goes through the small wizard to help identify it ... it didn't like the key press at the second screen where it asks for the key immediately to the left of the right shift key.  If you are going to be setting it up as a standard ANSI board as I did pressing the 'normal' key that would be there (/?) worked ok.  

So far so good, the matrix layout and key placements feel very good and it was little to no time to adjust to them for touch typing.  The other keys ... that will take some time, but I'm already starting to adjust.  I have some 40A O-rings in transit, which I will put on this board for sure.

I also tried, as sordna mentioned in another thread, swapping the enter keycap for another standard one, but it didn't work out due tot he shape of the keyboard casing around the bottom of the key.  I tried a few different keycap sizes, but none of them worked out well.  Some can fit (sort of) but nothing that is really usable.

-I may have missed this, about the shift/command keys in different places...is this something that you can take care of via remapping to put them in better spots?
-Regarding O-rings...you just like them, or is there anything about this board that makes you want them more?
-Sounds like the custom shaped keys will provide challenges for some possible mods. May need the "make your own custom key cap" thread.
Kinesis Advantage cut into 2 halves | RollerMouse Free 2 | Apple Magic Trackpad | Colemak
Evil Screaming Flying Door Monkeys From Hell                     Proudly GeekWhacking since 2009
Things change, things stay the same                                        Thanks much, Smallfry  
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Offline Gerk

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Truly Ergonomic Model 109 w/ reds pics and info
« Reply #5 on: Fri, 16 December 2011, 12:09:49 »
Indeed they are.  Considerably narrower than a tenkeyless.  Here it is with a Leopold tenkeyless for comparison.

[ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 35175[/ATTACH]

Also worth noting, the backspace is a little squeaky, so it will be getting some lube tonight.  Everything else so far is very smooth.
Rosewill RK-9000RE (reds) | Das Keyboard Model S Professional Silent (browns) | Leopold TKL (browns) | F21-7D "Mechanical Keyboard" (Blue Alps) | Filco Majestouch TKL (blues) | Goldtouch V2 x 2 | Matias Ergo Pro x 2 | Kinesis Freestyle Pro (browns) | Kinesis Freestyle Edge (reds)

Offline sordna

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Truly Ergonomic Model 109 w/ reds pics and info
« Reply #6 on: Fri, 16 December 2011, 12:16:32 »
That enter key you removed has cherry-style stabilizer, not costar. When you get a chance, please remove a space bar and take a photo of the keyboard and the spacebar underside.
Kinesis Contoured Advantage & Advantage2 LF with Cherry MX Red switches / Extra keys mod / O-ring dampening mod / Dvorak layout. ErgoDox with buzzer and LED mod.
Also: Kinesis Advantage Classic, Kinesis Advantage2, Data911 TG3, Fingerworks Touchstream LP, IBM SSK (Buckling spring), Goldtouch GTU-0077 keyboard

Offline Gerk

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Truly Ergonomic Model 109 w/ reds pics and info
« Reply #7 on: Fri, 16 December 2011, 12:16:46 »
Quote from: input nirvana;472168
-I may have missed this, about the shift/command keys in different places...is this something that you can take care of via remapping to put them in better spots?
-Regarding O-rings...you just like them, or is there anything about this board that makes you want them more?
-Sounds like the custom shaped keys will provide challenges for some possible mods. May need the "make your own custom key cap" thread.

Should be something that can be done with software remapping.  Nothing in hardware I've seen can do this yet, at least not with DIP switches.  Also for us OSX users, that DIP switch option makes the ctrl keys into command keys, and on the 09 the left alt key is optin, the right alt/gr key is control.  Not that thrilled with that at this point, but when I have some time to dig into things further for remapping I'll make some adjustments there too ... especially since I got the 109 specifically for the extra keys ;)  I've also tried the switch for the alternate space bar methods, but not sure how to do anything with it yet -- thinking that I would like the left space to be backspace.

The custom keycaps shapes will make it challenging, but in addition to this challenge is the shape of the case right below the enter key, which is 'form fitting' to the keycap shape, so you can't easily use a straight keycap there as it rubs up against the case.

As for the O-rings I like them, the board doesn't really need it per se, it feels very nice without them, but I like the soft landing.  I think it's going to be very easy for me to type on this board without bottoming out once I'm a bit more used to it.
Rosewill RK-9000RE (reds) | Das Keyboard Model S Professional Silent (browns) | Leopold TKL (browns) | F21-7D "Mechanical Keyboard" (Blue Alps) | Filco Majestouch TKL (blues) | Goldtouch V2 x 2 | Matias Ergo Pro x 2 | Kinesis Freestyle Pro (browns) | Kinesis Freestyle Edge (reds)

Offline Gerk

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Truly Ergonomic Model 109 w/ reds pics and info
« Reply #8 on: Fri, 16 December 2011, 12:20:31 »
Quote from: sordna;472178
That enter key you removed has cherry-style stabilizer, not costar. When you get a chance, please remove a space bar and take a photo of the keyboard and the spacebar underside.

Ok, whoops, I always mess those two up.  I did remove the space bar already.  It's the same stabilizers and the same spacing as the shift key on my Leopolds, but the space bar keycap itself is angled (not the switch), and it has a little doohickie on it.  I'll post a pic in a few minutes, hard to describe.  The space bar is also not usable in the enter position because it is straight and that slot needs a v shaped keycap (but the stabilizer spacing matches the enter key)
Rosewill RK-9000RE (reds) | Das Keyboard Model S Professional Silent (browns) | Leopold TKL (browns) | F21-7D "Mechanical Keyboard" (Blue Alps) | Filco Majestouch TKL (blues) | Goldtouch V2 x 2 | Matias Ergo Pro x 2 | Kinesis Freestyle Pro (browns) | Kinesis Freestyle Edge (reds)

Offline sordna

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Truly Ergonomic Model 109 w/ reds pics and info
« Reply #9 on: Fri, 16 December 2011, 12:24:19 »
Cool. Might wanna edit the OP to avoid confusion: costar->cherry
Kinesis Contoured Advantage & Advantage2 LF with Cherry MX Red switches / Extra keys mod / O-ring dampening mod / Dvorak layout. ErgoDox with buzzer and LED mod.
Also: Kinesis Advantage Classic, Kinesis Advantage2, Data911 TG3, Fingerworks Touchstream LP, IBM SSK (Buckling spring), Goldtouch GTU-0077 keyboard

Offline Gerk

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Truly Ergonomic Model 109 w/ reds pics and info
« Reply #10 on: Fri, 16 December 2011, 12:29:18 »
spacebar pics

[ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 35179[/ATTACH] [ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 35180[/ATTACH]
Rosewill RK-9000RE (reds) | Das Keyboard Model S Professional Silent (browns) | Leopold TKL (browns) | F21-7D "Mechanical Keyboard" (Blue Alps) | Filco Majestouch TKL (blues) | Goldtouch V2 x 2 | Matias Ergo Pro x 2 | Kinesis Freestyle Pro (browns) | Kinesis Freestyle Edge (reds)

Offline Input Nirvana

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Truly Ergonomic Model 109 w/ reds pics and info
« Reply #11 on: Fri, 16 December 2011, 12:29:55 »
I didn't put much thought into the idea of someone in the U.S. (I know you are in Canada) getting the 109 key model and having a few extra keys to be able to program in the OS. That would make a better selling point in the U.S. but not for countries that default to that model.

Thanks for the various pics.
Kinesis Advantage cut into 2 halves | RollerMouse Free 2 | Apple Magic Trackpad | Colemak
Evil Screaming Flying Door Monkeys From Hell                     Proudly GeekWhacking since 2009
Things change, things stay the same                                        Thanks much, Smallfry  
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Offline Gerk

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Truly Ergonomic Model 109 w/ reds pics and info
« Reply #12 on: Fri, 16 December 2011, 12:33:31 »
I also haven't tried the difference in setting the DIP switches for the 104/109 versions ... mine is set at the 104 right now as I wanted to make sure it would detect properly as ANSI and not JIS.

Another thing to note ... the numbers are all shifted over one spot from where I'm used to them being (not really, it's more of an angle thing because of the angle of the left side) but I keep hitting the blank key instead of the number 1.  Damn that muscle memory :)
Rosewill RK-9000RE (reds) | Das Keyboard Model S Professional Silent (browns) | Leopold TKL (browns) | F21-7D "Mechanical Keyboard" (Blue Alps) | Filco Majestouch TKL (blues) | Goldtouch V2 x 2 | Matias Ergo Pro x 2 | Kinesis Freestyle Pro (browns) | Kinesis Freestyle Edge (reds)

Offline Gerk

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Truly Ergonomic Model 109 w/ reds pics and info
« Reply #13 on: Fri, 16 December 2011, 13:08:31 »
Ok, another couple of updates ...

I did some key remapping with KeyRemap4MacBook, I now have the shift and command keys where my fingers are happier with them on the left side, and I've remapped the right shift to enter (hard habit to break!) and the right control (command in my configuration) to shift as well.  But ... I ran into a few issues.

No matter what keyboard 'type' I choose (ANSI/ISO/JIS) I get no key events at all from the blank keys with the exception of the one just to the left of the 1 key.  I tried all 3 layouts and no go on any of them.  Not sure if this is a firmware issue with the board (suspecting it is) or if it's an OS thing.  Also changing to the ISO layout resulted in a couple of key changes that were not expected.  The \| key turned into }] which is what it would be position wise in a standard ISO layout ... but I was told by the TE folks that no matter which layout method I chose the keys would register as they are printer on the keycaps.  Not the case it seems.

Also worth noting is that they center column double quote/comma key (used for accents?) remained as a backspace in all the layout options I chose.  Not a big deal for me as I don't use it but I think it might be an issue for european users.  It may also have been an issue because I did not restart or unplug/replug the board when changing these options ... but other things were affected so not sure that was the problem.  I suspect, or at least hope, that we'll see a firmware update from the TE folks for this stuff.

So long story short, my 'extra' keys are not going to be of much use yet it seems.  Oh well ... I would have still taken this layout just to keep the + and - both on the right hand side of the keyboard anyway ;)

Next up I think I will remap the enter key to be backspace now that I have the right shift mapped as enter, but that;s going to take a bit more digging in the remapping app docs as it wasn't one of the preset choices.
Rosewill RK-9000RE (reds) | Das Keyboard Model S Professional Silent (browns) | Leopold TKL (browns) | F21-7D "Mechanical Keyboard" (Blue Alps) | Filco Majestouch TKL (blues) | Goldtouch V2 x 2 | Matias Ergo Pro x 2 | Kinesis Freestyle Pro (browns) | Kinesis Freestyle Edge (reds)

Offline Gerk

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Truly Ergonomic Model 109 w/ reds pics and info
« Reply #14 on: Fri, 16 December 2011, 13:09:54 »
Also I am now in the105/109 DIP switch setting, which also didn't make a difference in getting keycodes from the blank keys.
Rosewill RK-9000RE (reds) | Das Keyboard Model S Professional Silent (browns) | Leopold TKL (browns) | F21-7D "Mechanical Keyboard" (Blue Alps) | Filco Majestouch TKL (blues) | Goldtouch V2 x 2 | Matias Ergo Pro x 2 | Kinesis Freestyle Pro (browns) | Kinesis Freestyle Edge (reds)

Offline Gerk

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Truly Ergonomic Model 109 w/ reds pics and info
« Reply #15 on: Fri, 16 December 2011, 13:12:25 »
And I also get no keycode for the left spacebar in any layout :(  That is a real bummer.
Rosewill RK-9000RE (reds) | Das Keyboard Model S Professional Silent (browns) | Leopold TKL (browns) | F21-7D "Mechanical Keyboard" (Blue Alps) | Filco Majestouch TKL (blues) | Goldtouch V2 x 2 | Matias Ergo Pro x 2 | Kinesis Freestyle Pro (browns) | Kinesis Freestyle Edge (reds)

Offline Gerk

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Truly Ergonomic Model 109 w/ reds pics and info
« Reply #16 on: Fri, 16 December 2011, 13:55:11 »
I think I'm going to settle in nicely with this board, just did a typeracer test and I'm already up to over 60WPM or so on it ... once I get used to where a few of the other keys are I'll be flying.  Very happy with the split and the key angles, took no time at all for me to adjust to them.  The backspace and the single/double quote keys are my two biggest problems now that I've remapped the modifiers more to my liking.
Rosewill RK-9000RE (reds) | Das Keyboard Model S Professional Silent (browns) | Leopold TKL (browns) | F21-7D "Mechanical Keyboard" (Blue Alps) | Filco Majestouch TKL (blues) | Goldtouch V2 x 2 | Matias Ergo Pro x 2 | Kinesis Freestyle Pro (browns) | Kinesis Freestyle Edge (reds)

Offline sordna

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Truly Ergonomic Model 109 w/ reds pics and info
« Reply #17 on: Fri, 16 December 2011, 14:02:24 »
Quote from: Gerk;472234
And I also get no keycode for the left spacebar in any layout :(  That is a real bummer.

Are you saying the left spacebar is completely dead? That would be odd.
Anyway, do you have a PC that you could boot with linux to try "xev" for keycodes? Perhaps the Mac keyboard settings prevent your computer from seeing extra keycodes it doesn't expect? It's worth a try on Linux.
Kinesis Contoured Advantage & Advantage2 LF with Cherry MX Red switches / Extra keys mod / O-ring dampening mod / Dvorak layout. ErgoDox with buzzer and LED mod.
Also: Kinesis Advantage Classic, Kinesis Advantage2, Data911 TG3, Fingerworks Touchstream LP, IBM SSK (Buckling spring), Goldtouch GTU-0077 keyboard

Offline Gerk

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Truly Ergonomic Model 109 w/ reds pics and info
« Reply #18 on: Fri, 16 December 2011, 14:10:28 »
I don't have a linux box handy to test with that is easy to get at (I do have a server but it's not easy to try out things with), but that's a good suggestion.  But yes, with the DIP switch setting to do the split space bars I get no keycode at all from the left space bar.  With it in the standard position both sides work fine.  Wondering if this is not something happening between OSX's default keyboard setups and the hardware ... maybe there are keycodes for the left space bar and the other blank keys and somehow OSX is just ignoring them ... this will warrant further digging at some point in the future as I really really want to remap that left space bar and the other blank keys for my needs.  But I do have to say that I am loving the board layout so far.  Feels very natural to me and with the cherry reds it's very buttery to type on :)  Not quite Topre buttery, but very very nice.
Rosewill RK-9000RE (reds) | Das Keyboard Model S Professional Silent (browns) | Leopold TKL (browns) | F21-7D "Mechanical Keyboard" (Blue Alps) | Filco Majestouch TKL (blues) | Goldtouch V2 x 2 | Matias Ergo Pro x 2 | Kinesis Freestyle Pro (browns) | Kinesis Freestyle Edge (reds)

Offline sordna

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Truly Ergonomic Model 109 w/ reds pics and info
« Reply #19 on: Fri, 16 December 2011, 14:15:52 »
Ah ok. I thought you were having an issue similar to this
Kinesis Contoured Advantage & Advantage2 LF with Cherry MX Red switches / Extra keys mod / O-ring dampening mod / Dvorak layout. ErgoDox with buzzer and LED mod.
Also: Kinesis Advantage Classic, Kinesis Advantage2, Data911 TG3, Fingerworks Touchstream LP, IBM SSK (Buckling spring), Goldtouch GTU-0077 keyboard

Offline Gerk

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Truly Ergonomic Model 109 w/ reds pics and info
« Reply #20 on: Fri, 16 December 2011, 14:19:55 »
Nope, all good on that front.  I expect we're going to see a flurry of TE related questions as these boards arrive in geekhacker's hands.
Rosewill RK-9000RE (reds) | Das Keyboard Model S Professional Silent (browns) | Leopold TKL (browns) | F21-7D "Mechanical Keyboard" (Blue Alps) | Filco Majestouch TKL (blues) | Goldtouch V2 x 2 | Matias Ergo Pro x 2 | Kinesis Freestyle Pro (browns) | Kinesis Freestyle Edge (reds)

Offline Input Nirvana

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Truly Ergonomic Model 109 w/ reds pics and info
« Reply #21 on: Fri, 16 December 2011, 15:17:30 »
If you are happy with it as a solid performer, the programmability is dynamic, and there is more separation in practice than it looks, then maybe we can let the 'Truly Ergonomic' moniker stick :) You're doing a very nice job of just popping out info as you come across it for us junkies, rather than waiting a week with a complete stale synopsis.

DISCLAIMER FOR THE RECORD:
Mr. Gerk, please state for the permanent record, that you recently procured a Kinesis Advantage and REJECTED said keyboard. Is this correct, Mr. Gerk?

Just the facts, ma'am.
Kinesis Advantage cut into 2 halves | RollerMouse Free 2 | Apple Magic Trackpad | Colemak
Evil Screaming Flying Door Monkeys From Hell                     Proudly GeekWhacking since 2009
Things change, things stay the same                                        Thanks much, Smallfry  
I AM THE REAPER . . . BECAUSE I KILL IT
~retired from forum activities 2015~

Offline Gerk

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Truly Ergonomic Model 109 w/ reds pics and info
« Reply #22 on: Fri, 16 December 2011, 20:33:05 »
That is true, I did reject the Kinesis.  I just couldn't deal with the inverted curve of the keywells, my hands just don't feel comfortable that way.  So far still really liking the TE though, it feels very nice and the split is just enough.  The angle is also good for me, others may disagree.
Rosewill RK-9000RE (reds) | Das Keyboard Model S Professional Silent (browns) | Leopold TKL (browns) | F21-7D "Mechanical Keyboard" (Blue Alps) | Filco Majestouch TKL (blues) | Goldtouch V2 x 2 | Matias Ergo Pro x 2 | Kinesis Freestyle Pro (browns) | Kinesis Freestyle Edge (reds)

Offline Gerk

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Truly Ergonomic Model 109 w/ reds pics and info
« Reply #23 on: Fri, 16 December 2011, 20:37:46 »
And more than happy to feed the info junkies.  Been there and it's good to get info sooner than later I always say.  I'll probably do up a proper review of it too, but not for a bit until I get more of a feel for it. Tonight I hope to find a deft Linux live distro to put on a thumb drive and do some key code testing with xev.
Rosewill RK-9000RE (reds) | Das Keyboard Model S Professional Silent (browns) | Leopold TKL (browns) | F21-7D "Mechanical Keyboard" (Blue Alps) | Filco Majestouch TKL (blues) | Goldtouch V2 x 2 | Matias Ergo Pro x 2 | Kinesis Freestyle Pro (browns) | Kinesis Freestyle Edge (reds)

Offline Gerk

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Truly Ergonomic Model 109 w/ reds pics and info
« Reply #24 on: Fri, 16 December 2011, 23:15:17 »
Are there any other mac users with these keyboards yet?  I'm still fighting a bit with getting the keycodes, getting closer, but would love to compare notes.  

Currently I'm using PCKeyboardHack (a tool that is made by the same folks as KeyRemap4Macbook)and by enabling the additional japanese keys I'm now getting some key codes from the 4 blank keys, but one of them (top left) thinks it's the left shift key and sending the exact same keycode as the left shift key (and also unsurprisingly behaving like a proper modifier) ... one key (top left in one key) is acting like a normal key would (hold it down and gets key repeat) -- firing a key code but not mapped to anything in the ANSI layout, and the other 2 (the lower outside keys) are only sending keyUp events (no keydown) and are (lower left) JIS EISUU and (lower right) JIS KANA.  Now if they would only fire keyDown events too and I could convince OSX to treat them like modifiers I'd be happier :)  Still no joy on the left space bar.  It looks like I might have to get more involved than I want to in order to do further hacks in this regard ... at this point I might just have to bite the bullet and wait for TE to get us the remapping software.
Rosewill RK-9000RE (reds) | Das Keyboard Model S Professional Silent (browns) | Leopold TKL (browns) | F21-7D "Mechanical Keyboard" (Blue Alps) | Filco Majestouch TKL (blues) | Goldtouch V2 x 2 | Matias Ergo Pro x 2 | Kinesis Freestyle Pro (browns) | Kinesis Freestyle Edge (reds)

Offline boli

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Truly Ergonomic Model 109 w/ reds pics and info
« Reply #25 on: Sun, 18 December 2011, 06:16:33 »
Quote from: Gerk;472230
Also changing to the ISO layout resulted in a couple of key changes that were not expected.  The \| key turned into }] which is what it would be position wise in a standard ISO layout ... but I was told by the TE folks that no matter which layout method I chose the keys would register as they are printer on the keycaps.  Not the case it seems.

Also worth noting is that they center column double quote/comma key (used for accents?) remained as a backspace in all the layout options I chose.  Not a big deal for me as I don't use it but I think it might be an issue for european users.  It may also have been an issue because I did not restart or unplug/replug the board when changing these options ... but other things were affected so not sure that was the problem.  I suspect, or at least hope, that we'll see a firmware update from the TE folks for this stuff.

Posting here for some Mac specific stuff. I also fiddled with the different keyboard types that Mac OS X offers, and for some reason the "Change keyboard type" button in System Preferences > Keyboard is suddenly gone, after some fiddling. I can delete the file /Library/Preferences/com.apple.keyboardtype.plist and replug the keyboard to have the Keyboard Setup Assistant run again, but the button is still gone, if I replug the TE first and run the assistant (maybe it would be back after a restart?).
If I delete the file, replug the Kinesis first and run the assistant, the "Change keyboard type" button reappears. Either way, replugging the respective other keyboard afterwards does not bring up the Keyboard Setup Assistant again.

Anyway, for the Kinesis board I think I had to choose ANSI to make the `~ key work, and I thought it was the same on the TE (yesterday the key didn't work on either keyboard). Currently I'm set to ISO and weirdly enough the `~ key works on both the Kinesis and TE. Maybe because I have two keyboards connected at the same time it's behaving a bit weird.

My keyboard was set to 104 mode. In this mode the key just below `~ on the TE acts as a DEL (right/forward delete) with either keyboard type, while in your case it acts as backspace? Could be a difference between your 109 and my 105 model I guess, even though the 105 and 109 look the same in that regard. Also the \| key stays \| no matter which keyboard type I select, contrary to your experience.
Update: with the DIP switch set to 105/109 instead of 104 the extra key below `~ turns into §± with both ANSI and ISO, still no changes to \| at all (good).
Keyboard: Kinesis Ergo Advantage (two LF editions with red Cherry switches, one regular with brown switches)
Keyboard layout: basically Colemak, with some remapping to end up with my custom Kinesis Advantage layout
Typing test profiles: typeracer.com / hi-games.net / keybr.com

Offline Gerk

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Truly Ergonomic Model 109 w/ reds pics and info
« Reply #26 on: Sun, 18 December 2011, 11:31:49 »
It might be something going on with both boards plugged in at once, I've seen that do strange things in the past, specifically when one of the boards was a Kinesis.  Try running with just a single board plugged in and see if that helps things.  Also you shouldn't have to trash that preferences file, or at least I've never had to ... OSX is capable of tracking prefs for different keyboards.  For example if you are changing up the modifiers there's a pulldown list of the boards that it knows about and it will keep them separate as far as changing modifier mappings go.

That middle key (",) might have been giving me forward delete as well (it probably should have), I wasn't paying close enough attention.  It now gives me absolutely nothing and I'm using ANSI.  I don't want to mess too much with my setup at the moment as I have managed to remap a good bit of stuff and aside from wanting to shift over the number key row I'm reasonably happy with things.  Still taking time to get used to the middle row, after trying some coding with this board there's a lot of muscle memory I'm going to need to break ... tab, quotes, slashes and backspace.
Rosewill RK-9000RE (reds) | Das Keyboard Model S Professional Silent (browns) | Leopold TKL (browns) | F21-7D "Mechanical Keyboard" (Blue Alps) | Filco Majestouch TKL (blues) | Goldtouch V2 x 2 | Matias Ergo Pro x 2 | Kinesis Freestyle Pro (browns) | Kinesis Freestyle Edge (reds)

Offline sordna

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« Reply #27 on: Sun, 18 December 2011, 17:26:53 »
Guys, it's not really worth shifting the number row, almost all matrix-arranged keyboards have 1 over Q, 5 over T and so forth. It's actually very convenient to touch-type numbers, when the number row is symmetric (1-5 on the left hand, 6-0 on the right). It take very little effort to get used to.
Kinesis Contoured Advantage & Advantage2 LF with Cherry MX Red switches / Extra keys mod / O-ring dampening mod / Dvorak layout. ErgoDox with buzzer and LED mod.
Also: Kinesis Advantage Classic, Kinesis Advantage2, Data911 TG3, Fingerworks Touchstream LP, IBM SSK (Buckling spring), Goldtouch GTU-0077 keyboard

Offline boli

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« Reply #28 on: Mon, 19 December 2011, 03:45:51 »
Quote from: sordna;473415
Guys, it's not really worth shifting the number row, almost all matrix-arranged keyboards have 1 over Q, 5 over T and so forth. It's actually very convenient to touch-type numbers, when the number row is symmetric (1-5 on the left hand, 6-0 on the right). It take very little effort to get used to.

Well the worthiness is a matter of opinion. :) I'm sure it can work just as well, once used to it. I think it depends a lot on how one used to type numbers before changing to a matrix keyboard.

I argue that it's just as convenient to touch type numbers with 1-6 on the left and 7-9 and -_ and =+ on the right. The benefit is that there might be no need to relearn when switching from a staggered rows keyboard to a grid/matrix keyboard, depending on one's habits. You see, on a staggered keyboard, the "2" key is almost exactly above the "a" key, and thus easily pressed with the pinky, even though the ring finger is supposed to do it (!).

Prior to getting the Kinesis keyboard a couple of years ago I didn't pay attention to the numbers row much and just used whichever finger was most convenient (like pinky for "2"), however I did use the -_ and =+ keys quite a bit while programming (it's my job). So with the =+ key suddenly gone to the top left on the unchanged Kinesis  and -_ taking its position I was making a lot of mistakes using them, the =+ key particularly, because it did not only change position, but change hands. As any Colemak user might tell you, a key switching hands is a bigger adjustment than just switching position (which might or might not require changing the finger), hello "E" and "P". :)

So I decided to shift the number row to restore the layout I'm used to, as I had seen on Maltron 90 models (for the same reason, read 1st paragraph on the linked page). You're right that any other matrix keyboard has 1 above Q, even some other Maltron models, namely the 89 - I wonder though if that is a conscious decision or just happened.
For me it was enough work to get used to the new location of [{ and ]}, the thumb keys and the grid layout in general. I wanted to minimize the "indifferent" changes, and only have to adjust to the ones with a real benefit (I guess I got this idea from Colemak, which changes only the frequently used keys, and leaves the less frequently used keys alone - compared to QWERTY - so one doesn't have to relearn everything). Shifted or unshifted number row doesn't really matter in terms of ergonomics IMHO, for me the shifted row was just easier to get used to. Other stuff was worth relearning, because it's better in the long run. And then there's things where it's very hard to be sure, like the new location for Shift keys on the TE - it seems better because it's easier to reach, but it goes against muscle memory.

Anyway, I'm using a Kinesis keyboard both at work and also at home on my main computer. On my media computers I use a normally staggered bluetooth keyboard, and my laptop has a normally staggered keyboard as well. I can touch type numbers on all of them without conscious thought (which I need to given there's numbers in my password), as the position of the numbers is the same relative to the home row, compared to the Kinesis with shifted number row.

BTW later I was glad I had 1 to 6 on my left hand for control groups in StarCraft 2, rather than just 1 to 5, but that's pure coincidence. ;)
Keyboard: Kinesis Ergo Advantage (two LF editions with red Cherry switches, one regular with brown switches)
Keyboard layout: basically Colemak, with some remapping to end up with my custom Kinesis Advantage layout
Typing test profiles: typeracer.com / hi-games.net / keybr.com

Offline BartVB

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Truly Ergonomic Model 109 w/ reds pics and info
« Reply #29 on: Mon, 19 December 2011, 06:46:54 »
A short message to tell you that I also received my two TE keyboards (109 layout, Cherry brown) in The Netherlands. They come with a $99/keyboard invoice but alas that's not what I payed :+

I tried one of them and the build quality seems great! The reverse slanting of the Enter vs spacebar keys is not as bad when using the board as I imagined, keys feel just like my Cherry brown Filco. The backspace is a bit hard to hit with my fingers, hitting it with my thumb seems to be a viable alternative.

The keyboard does take quite a bit of getting used to. The locations of shift, backspace and enter are really hardwired into my brain :) I'm back to my Filco for now, need to get some actual work done today :D

I'm using the board with OS X and all keys seem to work as expected. Using ControllerMate (recommended!) for remapping and all keys register and it's a breeze to remap. Don't think that custom firmware is needed with ControllerMate.

Some things that I'd like to change:

- Switch shift and ctrl. Not really sure why TE made the layout as it is now?
- Move backspace to the left spacebar

Also need to figure out where I'm going to move the command key. I use my left thumb for that at the moment, no idea where I'm going to move that, almost impossible to reach the lower left key (next to 'Alt') with my pinky. Might use the pageup/pagedown cluster for this.

Offline Gerk

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Truly Ergonomic Model 109 w/ reds pics and info
« Reply #30 on: Mon, 19 December 2011, 10:05:14 »
Quote from: sordna;473415
Guys, it's not really worth shifting the number row, almost all matrix-arranged keyboards have 1 over Q, 5 over T and so forth. It's actually very convenient to touch-type numbers, when the number row is symmetric (1-5 on the left hand, 6-0 on the right). It take very little effort to get used to.

I still much prefer the number row shifted one over to the left, as it also brings the other keys into closer symmetry -- there's more to that row than the numbers and I use the -_ and =+ keys a lot so it's nicer having them a bit closer ... and I'm already used to touch typing the numbers in that method, I found myself always shifted over one number when I started using the TE board.  On my model 109 this is very simple to do as I can even move the keycaps -- which I have already done.  It works wonderfully for my needs.  I realize that other matrix boards do this but I've been touch typing them for so long in this arrangement and since it's so easy to do I don't want to take on the extra learning curve at this point in time.

I finished tweaking up all the remapping last night, and I even managed to get everything going as far as the extra keys except for the left space bar :(  I'll post the instructions on how to do it tonight for anyone else who is interested.  After having moved the number row over one it's very very comfortable for me to type on now and there's only a slight learning curve for the few moved keys ('" \| and /?) as a few of the other keys (like tab) ... I also mapped the very top right blank key top backspace and the top left one to esc.  Get's things back to a semi-traditional layout without losing all the benefit of the ergo matrix layout.  For me it's the best of both worlds.
Rosewill RK-9000RE (reds) | Das Keyboard Model S Professional Silent (browns) | Leopold TKL (browns) | F21-7D "Mechanical Keyboard" (Blue Alps) | Filco Majestouch TKL (blues) | Goldtouch V2 x 2 | Matias Ergo Pro x 2 | Kinesis Freestyle Pro (browns) | Kinesis Freestyle Edge (reds)

Offline Draconian

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Truly Ergonomic Model 109 w/ reds pics and info
« Reply #31 on: Mon, 19 December 2011, 12:12:25 »
Forgive me if this is stupid question, but are you using Microsoft Keyboard Layout creator and/or Keytweak (if on Windows) to do this remapping?

I assume you haven't cracked how to reprogram the keyboard yet?!

I am reading around these forums, and see you guys referring to reprogramming keyboards, and have assumed that you have a preferred suite of tools to do this?

Offline boli

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Truly Ergonomic Model 109 w/ reds pics and info
« Reply #32 on: Mon, 19 December 2011, 12:28:33 »
Gerk is using Mac OS X, he says how he reprogrammed it on the previous page.

Personally I'd rather avoid remapping in software altogether, even though ControllerMate is awesome.

Quote from: BartVB;473669
Also need to figure out where I'm going to move the command key. I use my left thumb for that at the moment, no idea where I'm going to move that, almost impossible to reach the lower left key (next to 'Alt') with my pinky. Might use the pageup/pagedown cluster for this.


I take it you haven't enabled the Ctrl/Command DIP switch? Otherwise the official option would be to do that and get used to using the pinky for Command. As a Mac user (who from my experience usually use their thumb) that's very unfamiliar - one of the reasons I couldn't get used to the TypeMatrix keyboard, and one of the reasons the Kinesis keyboard is so good.
Thumb choices on the TE are very limited though, I can think of these:
  • Left space
  • Central backspace (with Backspace moved to the Shift or Ctrl position, similar to Colemak)
Keyboard: Kinesis Ergo Advantage (two LF editions with red Cherry switches, one regular with brown switches)
Keyboard layout: basically Colemak, with some remapping to end up with my custom Kinesis Advantage layout
Typing test profiles: typeracer.com / hi-games.net / keybr.com

Offline Draconian

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Truly Ergonomic Model 109 w/ reds pics and info
« Reply #33 on: Mon, 19 December 2011, 12:39:12 »
Wow! I love the look of ControllerMate - thanks for the tip.

Drat! I've just noticed that it's Mac only.

Is there something as great for Windows?

Sorry for the daft questions! I'll toddle off now, and read more thoroughly before posting...

Offline boli

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Truly Ergonomic Model 109 w/ reds pics and info
« Reply #34 on: Mon, 19 December 2011, 12:46:11 »
I was about to say it's Mac only. ;)

I use Windows only for games (hello Skyrim), but there is one remapping I absolutely have to do, which is swap Ctrl and Command (on my Kinesis, on the TE I'd use the DIP switch ofc). Because most of the time I'm running Mac OS X I won't do it in the keyboard firmware, so for this one remapping I turned to software. The first thing a Google search brought up is SharpKeys, so that's what I use. For the simple stuff I need it works fine, but it's no ControllerMate. Maybe a seasoned Windows user will point you to something better... :)
Keyboard: Kinesis Ergo Advantage (two LF editions with red Cherry switches, one regular with brown switches)
Keyboard layout: basically Colemak, with some remapping to end up with my custom Kinesis Advantage layout
Typing test profiles: typeracer.com / hi-games.net / keybr.com

Offline Gerk

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Truly Ergonomic Model 109 w/ reds pics and info
« Reply #35 on: Mon, 19 December 2011, 16:30:38 »
I've seen people talking about remapping keys in windows quite a lot, I think there are a few options available but I'm not familiar with any of them offhand.  For me remapping I'm using a combination of PCKeyboardHack and KeyRemap4MacBook along with a custom private.xml file (for the key remapper).  I will post detailed instructions tonight at some point I hope.
Rosewill RK-9000RE (reds) | Das Keyboard Model S Professional Silent (browns) | Leopold TKL (browns) | F21-7D "Mechanical Keyboard" (Blue Alps) | Filco Majestouch TKL (blues) | Goldtouch V2 x 2 | Matias Ergo Pro x 2 | Kinesis Freestyle Pro (browns) | Kinesis Freestyle Edge (reds)

Offline BartVB

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« Reply #36 on: Tue, 20 December 2011, 17:10:55 »
BTW small observation; the keyboard is MUCH quieter than my filco tenkeyless (new edition, the Majestouch 2, but the original is just as bad). The keys don't sound like they have quite a bit more mass to them.

Offline Architect

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Truly Ergonomic Model 109 w/ reds pics and info
« Reply #37 on: Tue, 20 December 2011, 17:55:11 »
Quote from: BartVB;474725
BTW small observation; the keyboard is MUCH quieter than my filco tenkeyless (new edition, the Majestouch 2, but the original is just as bad). The keys don't sound like they have quite a bit more mass to them.

Yes on a good note it's the most solid and quiet keyboard I've used, almost a brick. More so than the ten keyless it seems, and that has a metal plate. Actually it's pretty heavy, I wonder if it does have a plate in there ...
TECK 209 Blank Keys; Leopold Number Pad; X-Keys Professional; X-Keys 84.

Offline sordna

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« Reply #38 on: Tue, 20 December 2011, 18:02:17 »
Just remove some keycaps and you should be able to tell if the switches are mounted on metal or not, they most probably are, judging from the assembly photo in the TE blog.
Kinesis Contoured Advantage & Advantage2 LF with Cherry MX Red switches / Extra keys mod / O-ring dampening mod / Dvorak layout. ErgoDox with buzzer and LED mod.
Also: Kinesis Advantage Classic, Kinesis Advantage2, Data911 TG3, Fingerworks Touchstream LP, IBM SSK (Buckling spring), Goldtouch GTU-0077 keyboard

Offline Gerk

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« Reply #39 on: Tue, 20 December 2011, 21:16:24 »
It has a plate for sure judging from the weight ... either that or it's PCB mounted and they added a bunch of led weights to it :)  It's quite heavy.  Heavier than any of my other boards in fact.
Rosewill RK-9000RE (reds) | Das Keyboard Model S Professional Silent (browns) | Leopold TKL (browns) | F21-7D "Mechanical Keyboard" (Blue Alps) | Filco Majestouch TKL (blues) | Goldtouch V2 x 2 | Matias Ergo Pro x 2 | Kinesis Freestyle Pro (browns) | Kinesis Freestyle Edge (reds)