Author Topic: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards  (Read 659588 times)

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Offline phughes

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2900 on: Sat, 19 June 2021, 18:22:07 »
Well I took the plunge and have ordered my F77 with the UK layout.

As much as I love my Model F XT with internal Soarer's, I'm aware that if any of the PCB components fail, I'd probably be screwed as I have very little knowledge of electronics (although I did install Soarer's on an internal Teensy).

Just out of interest, I wonder how many other UK orders there have been?

Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2901 on: Sun, 20 June 2021, 03:01:18 »
Chyros has just posted his F77 review!  It is amazing as you may have guessed.  My comments posted on YouTube are included below the embedded video.

phughes glad you have joined the project!  I don't have the count on hand by country but UK is the most popular destination by the total order value after the US.  Canada's up next!



Another thorough and well-researched review Chyros!  Thanks again for putting this together.  One of the single best history-infused overviews of the IBM Model F keyboards I have come across - so many facts in here.  Some thoughts on the review are below. 



Your microphone captured the keyboard sound test well - sounds like your keyboard is in the room with me!  It's tough to position the microphone at just the right distance from the keyboard to capture the sound well as you did.



My first major thought is on the discussion of the firmware that I wanted to share with everyone:  based on your commentary regarding frustrations with the firmware documentation in the manual, as shown in your video as of a few days ago I now direct newcomers to a new step by step introductory video to help those looking to get started with reprogramming their keyboard.  It's only for those who want to change the layout or add additional keys on the function layer.  I am still completely puzzled on why the firmware did not work and would have probably appreciated some additional visual documentation on your efforts to diagnose what happened or what error messages you were seeing when you were on the beta QMK site for example (this documentation is not for reasons of schadenfreude, I promise!).  I am sorry you had a bad experience with the two QMK-based firmware options - this should not have happened to anyone using a Model F.



The new step by step firmware video
proves that the same layout files and resources I have linked to in the video description work 100% and without modification or requirements of additional third party resources.  I only wish I could have produced this earlier in time for you but now my hope is that it helps everyone going forward.  There are a bunch of steps and they all have to be done in order :)



A message to all worried about the Model F firmware - please watch the brand new Model F firmware video I just made (see link above) to see how simple it is.  All that's needed is to follow the steps in the video which all have both a screen capture as well as written descriptions.  Again this is not meant to be an insult and is not meant to be directed at anyone in particular or anyone who has had trouble with my subpar documentation, or with QMK in general in the past.  I feel that my video makes the firmware programming as simple as firmware programming can be for lay persons and that anyone can begin to make layout changes by watching the video.  In minutes you can be up and running with either QMK or Via reprogramming (as a note all keyboards come custom programmed with the layout you ordered so the firmware talk is only for those who want to change something easily).



Chyros, there is one most important thing that was left out of your review, and I was surprised for sure as the video was otherwise 100% comprehensive.  I understand that you were under significant time constraints and understandably did not have any further time for troubleshooting, so I can understand why it was not included.  The review does not mention the simplicity and continued availability of programming the original xwhatsit firmware (for which full instructions are available in the manual on the project web site).  You seem to not like QMK and Via in general and have expressed familiarity with the original xwhatsit firmware.  Why not start there, even though QMK was what was loaded as the default?  Of course I agree that all firmwares offered with the project should be equally accessible and easy to use and so any frustrations should not have happened with reprogramming a Model F.



As a note to everyone, when you want to adjust the factory default layout you have to flash new firmware to the keyboard no matter what, so instead of flashing QMK or Via, one could just have easily flashed the original xwhatsit firmware which continues to work on the original and new Model F keyboards.  Admittedly there are some limitations of the old firmware that helped encourage adding Model F support to alternatives like QMK and Via (Via is built on QMK but with a downloadable offline GUI program), such as improved auto-calibration logic in the two QMK-based offerings.  The xwhatsit firmware does support layout adjustments, function layers, macros, solenoids, LEDs and more, just like QMK and Via.



The video noted that I did not write a firmware manual.  This is correct as there is currently one comprehensive manual available and already written for the Model F QMK and for the xwhatsit firmware, and forum member darkcruix is adding to the Model F Via documentation in the comprehensive Model F manual, separate from my own more intermediate manual.  Each manual has its own link in the firmware section, which has been updated based on the recent feedback.  I am not a developer and have been very grateful to all the folks who have helped improve the firmware and documentation of the Model F including most especially Deskthority.net users pandrew and darkcruix. 



The review also shows a screenshot of my "all in one place" Zip file of layouts and firmware available for download.  Specifying more concretely which file to use is certainly something I should have addressed more clearly in the manual; I have now specified exactly which file to use in the new firmware video linked to above. 



The review points out a reference to a confusing QMK toolbox program which was recently switched to a more user-friendly program and documented in the step by step firmware video.  QMK Toolbox is no longer required or recommended for any Model F related tasks.



Regarding the space bar sounds, the manual now includes a section on modding the space bar to change its sound and feel as Chyros noted in the video - so many mods are possible with Model F keyboards to personalize them more to individual tastes.  There are even floss mods and grease mods to reduce the sound when typing and ways of making the space bar quieter or louder, looser or tighter.



The video mentioned that the keyboard doesn't work well with USB hubs and alleged that the information was not anywhere to be found.  This information was actually already in the project web site manual - Troubleshooting - section D.  There are so many little but important tips and advice that I cannot really prioritize everything at the top - everyone really should go over the manual as fully as you can manage before setting things up, especially if you are trying to do more advanced tasks related to the firmware and especially if something is not working.  Outside of the firmware, the troubleshooting section especially is completely and fully documented for troubleshooting any common Model F issue and fixing it as quickly as possible.  As a note, I added the usb hub note to the manual last year, shortly after receiving this advice from a Model F user and shortly after sharing it in my post here:  https://deskthority.net/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=11046&p=466816&hilit=hub#p466816



Regarding the pitch of the springs, I have posted a comparison video of several of my own original Model F keyboards compared to one of the new Model F reproduction keyboards. 
In my experience every Model F keyboard sounds slightly different and my video demonstrates that some Model F keyboards have higher pitches and others have lower pitches than the reproductions, and I agree that the sound of the reproductions will probably change over future decades as the metal springs oxidize and corrode over time (as Chyros mentioned has likely happened to the original springs). 



Thanks again Chyros for the immense amount of your time to help tell people about Model F keyboards!  For all watchers of this review I hope that you will look more into Model F keyboards and let others know about them, whether the old ones from IBM on eBay that you can take apart and restore or the new reproduction ones.  The best place to read what people say about them is on the mechanical keyboard forums like Deskthority, geekhack, and reddit/r/MechanicalKeyboards.  The most important thing that can be done for Model F keyboards is to get the word out so that more people can discover them, whether they remember using the old IBM keyboards many years ago or whether they are just exploring all mechanical keyboards for the first time.  The Model F keyboards really are the best keyboards for typing in my view.
« Last Edit: Sun, 20 June 2021, 03:07:00 by Ellipse »

Offline blur410

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2902 on: Mon, 21 June 2021, 12:47:16 »
Technically chyros has already talked about xwhatsit in other reviews and since the board does not come with it preinstalled(and you have to go through the hoops of flashing it yourself) it would be an unfair comparison to draw to the controllers in other keyboards it was preinstalled with. Thats when you have to compare xwhatsit to via and qmk. And xwhatsit's only benefit over qmk/via is that you could precisely control the capacitance(which could have problems even with the correct tuning) and have native solenoid support. If you are not interested in tweaking these values qmk has 0 overhead, a better interface(not awesome but better), and much more flexibility with coding. And I would say if you are gonna flash a keyboard layout once, why not do it again if you already have the tools and knowhow to delve that deep.

If VIA or xwhatsit came preinstalled, then it could be a lot more seamless user experience and instead of the 10% of people needing to flash their keyboard, only 1% or less would see a point in reflashing to a custom qmk layout, completely negating the need to emphasize this step and even letting it be passably removed from the manual(or relegated to some distant afterthought).

Personally, I prefer the basic QMK experience and am happy to see the many changes suggested to continue being added to the manual in addition to the current factory loaded layout.
Keyboard Ownership History: Dynex(Rubber dome chicklet keys)-EXTINCT, Macbook Air 2016(Scissor switch)-ACTIVE, Razer Ornata(Mecha-membrane)-EXTINCT, Corsair K68 RGB(Cherry MX Reds)-RETIRED, Razer Tartarus Pro(Razer optical analog)-RETIRED, Idobao ID-75(NK Creams)-SHELF, HHKB Pro 3 Classic(Topre BKE MX Mount)-ACTIVE, New Model F62(Capacitive buckling springs)-ACTIVE, Realforce 23UB(Topre)-ACTIVE, BM60-RGBEC w/KBDFANS 5 Degree Case(NK BOX Pinks)-SHELF, Focus 2001 (Alps Pine White)-SHELF
Mouse Ownership History: Microsoft Mouse(Ball)-EXTINCT, Microsoft Mouse(Optical)-EXTINCT, Microsoft Gaming Mouse(Laser)-EXTINCT, Microsoft Mini Retractable Mouse(Ball)-EXTINCT, Logitech M-570(Optical Trackball)-RETIREDX2, Razer Deathadder(Optical)-EXTINCT, Razer Deathadder Chroma(Optical)-EXTINCT, Corsair Scimitar(Laser)-EXTINCT, Razer Deathadder Elite(Optical)-EXTINCT, Razer Deathadder v2(Optical)-ACTIVE, DROK iWit(Alps mechanical encoder)-ACTIVE, CST/X-keys/PI L-Trac(Laser/Optical Trackball)-ACTIVE, Ploopy Classic(Optical Trackball)-ACTIVE, Marcus RB2(Mechanical Trackball)-SHELF, Microsoft Trackball Optical(Optical Trackball)-SHELF, Logitech Trackman Vista(Optical Trackball)-SHELF, Microspeed PC-Trac(Optical? Trackball)-SHELF, Logitech Trackman FX(Optical Trackball)-SHELF, Logitech Trackman Stationary Mouse(Mechanical Trackball)-SHELF, Logitech Trackman Marble Wheel(Optical Trackball)-SHELF, Logitech Cordless Optical Trackman(Dark Gray Optical Trackball)-SHELF

Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2903 on: Mon, 21 June 2021, 13:05:21 »
Update:  New transparent cap reproductions now available to order, for delivery around year end 2021 (not until the keyboards have gone out - getting the keyboards out is my continued top priority)

https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/product/clear-relegendable-cap-stem/

Check out the first sample units from the new molds in the below photo - the caps are super-clear! 

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As requested by many people asking about these caps, I have ordered a new mold for these transparent relendable caps based on the exact dimensions of the original IBM 4704 transparent (now yellowed!) caps.  The relegendable caps allowed banks using 4704 terminals to put in specific function keys before the days of the GUI for IBM mainframes and terminals, so it is definitely in line with the 4704 reproduction project.  Nowadays they can be used for designing your own key, to open a specific program, to run a particular macro, etc.

The plan is to offer the lowered pricing currently shown on the product page for the group buy folks and then to increase pricing once they are actually in stock, to help cover project cost overruns and pay for the new molds.

Ordering one unit of this product gives you one clear relegendable cap and one Model F / Model M compatible stem. The stem will be provided in assorted colors - you can't pick, but you won't see it anyways once your relegendable paper label is installed.

I am aware that Fentek may still have some transparent caps in a non-original design at lower prices and I recall that a Deskthority forum member has posted a comparison of original vs. fentek caps.

This is the only place to get these IBM-style reproduction transparent caps, unless you buy an original 4704 keyboard that happens to have these caps (if you can find one!).

You can access a template for printing your keys here: https://deskthority.net/workshop-f7/ibm-4704-model-f-model-m-transparent-key-template-t9794.html

Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2904 on: Mon, 21 June 2021, 20:08:00 »
Help request:  Model F code refactoring for QMK submission?

Would anyone be able to help with refactoring pandrew's Model F code for submission to the QMK project?  I am hoping to have this expedited to simplify the process of changing the Model F layout.  It is my understanding that QMK will not accept the code as it stands.  If interested feel free to reply here or PM me for more information relayed to me from pandrew.  pandrew has already been instrumental with bringing QMK to the Model F and it would be great if some people could help bring QMK Model F to the main branch for greater visibility and simplicity.

Offline Pete

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2905 on: Fri, 25 June 2021, 04:43:14 »
Update:  New transparent cap reproductions now available to order, for delivery around year end 2021 (not until the keyboards have gone out - getting the keyboards out is my continued top priority).


Has anyone ever managed to get a programmable led to shine through one of these? 

Will all the keyboards ship by year end? (Iím waiting on a Carolina Blue one and solenoids).

Offline Pete

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2906 on: Fri, 25 June 2021, 04:56:40 »
Any suggestions on where to get some yellow keycaps?

Offline goofy9x

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2907 on: Fri, 25 June 2021, 05:30:43 »
Any suggestions on where to get some yellow keycaps?
Easily from Unicomp: https://www.pckeyboard.com/page/product/CustomKey

Sent from my SM-N950F using Tapatalk


Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2908 on: Fri, 25 June 2021, 12:07:53 »
Update:  New transparent cap reproductions now available to order, for delivery around year end 2021 (not until the keyboards have gone out - getting the keyboards out is my continued top priority).


Has anyone ever managed to get a programmable led to shine through one of these? 

Will all the keyboards ship by year end? (Iím waiting on a Carolina Blue one and solenoids).

The key stems are not transparent so I'm not sure.

That is the expectation that all remaining orders ship over the coming months and by year end but more recent orders may go out later.

Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2909 on: Sun, 27 June 2021, 11:22:36 »
I wanted to share (with permission) a nice photo someone sent me of the Industrial SSK Blue Modifier keys with the standard color keys. This is a nice combination.

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Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2910 on: Sun, 27 June 2021, 21:11:30 »
Update: scumyc / scumnc layout

Below are the very first photos of the customized F62 scumyc layout. These keyboards are going out this week to scumyc.

Keen-eyed folks will notice an error in the flipper placement around the | \ and Enter keys for one board - some of the many errors needing to be addressed during the QC process. These errors and other errors such as mislabeled variation numbers from the factory on the boxes have slowed down the QC process and is one of the reasons I will continue mailing out keyboards the rest of the year most likely.
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Offline Pete

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2911 on: Tue, 29 June 2021, 02:41:30 »
Is there a pic of the dark blue case?

Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2912 on: Tue, 29 June 2021, 12:53:24 »
Sublimation update:  The international sets and additional keys have been delayed.  The expectation is that production on them finishes in July or August.  For now the factory is focusing on the international sets.  Zed and I have been going back and forth with the factory's key set photos to review the alignment.  After that, all of the one-off keys will be sublimated.  The key alignment has proven much more difficult for all of the international sets - especially with the multiple legend characters on each key.  Alignment issues would be much more noticeable with these keys than they are with the US ANSI set which had fewer multi-character sets.

Yes Pete - scan through the imgur album of all the keyboard variations to see the dark blue case.  It came out nicely and so did the light blue (Carolina Blue) case.  https://imgur.com/a/gw8FOl0

Offline Pete

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2913 on: Wed, 30 June 2021, 02:53:28 »
Yes Pete - scan through the imgur album of all the keyboard variations to see the dark blue case.  It came out nicely and so did the light blue (Carolina Blue) case.  https://imgur.com/a/gw8FOl0

Itís gorgeous! Thanks. Might have to order another kb now  :)

Offline blur410

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2914 on: Wed, 30 June 2021, 07:51:45 »
Would it be possible to buy a board in the scumnc layout or were those a one off thing?
Keyboard Ownership History: Dynex(Rubber dome chicklet keys)-EXTINCT, Macbook Air 2016(Scissor switch)-ACTIVE, Razer Ornata(Mecha-membrane)-EXTINCT, Corsair K68 RGB(Cherry MX Reds)-RETIRED, Razer Tartarus Pro(Razer optical analog)-RETIRED, Idobao ID-75(NK Creams)-SHELF, HHKB Pro 3 Classic(Topre BKE MX Mount)-ACTIVE, New Model F62(Capacitive buckling springs)-ACTIVE, Realforce 23UB(Topre)-ACTIVE, BM60-RGBEC w/KBDFANS 5 Degree Case(NK BOX Pinks)-SHELF, Focus 2001 (Alps Pine White)-SHELF
Mouse Ownership History: Microsoft Mouse(Ball)-EXTINCT, Microsoft Mouse(Optical)-EXTINCT, Microsoft Gaming Mouse(Laser)-EXTINCT, Microsoft Mini Retractable Mouse(Ball)-EXTINCT, Logitech M-570(Optical Trackball)-RETIREDX2, Razer Deathadder(Optical)-EXTINCT, Razer Deathadder Chroma(Optical)-EXTINCT, Corsair Scimitar(Laser)-EXTINCT, Razer Deathadder Elite(Optical)-EXTINCT, Razer Deathadder v2(Optical)-ACTIVE, DROK iWit(Alps mechanical encoder)-ACTIVE, CST/X-keys/PI L-Trac(Laser/Optical Trackball)-ACTIVE, Ploopy Classic(Optical Trackball)-ACTIVE, Marcus RB2(Mechanical Trackball)-SHELF, Microsoft Trackball Optical(Optical Trackball)-SHELF, Logitech Trackman Vista(Optical Trackball)-SHELF, Microspeed PC-Trac(Optical? Trackball)-SHELF, Logitech Trackman FX(Optical Trackball)-SHELF, Logitech Trackman Stationary Mouse(Mechanical Trackball)-SHELF, Logitech Trackman Marble Wheel(Optical Trackball)-SHELF, Logitech Cordless Optical Trackman(Dark Gray Optical Trackball)-SHELF

Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2915 on: Wed, 30 June 2021, 13:47:27 »
blur410 yes I have one or two remaining.  The process is to order an ANSI F62 board, make a note to request scumyc, and then on the Extra Keys page, order the scumyc extra key set containing a few keys.

Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2916 on: Thu, 01 July 2021, 09:56:17 »
Does anyone have recommendations for easy to use GUI-based utilities for Atmel chips with Linux and Mac? I'd like to include some recommendations in the project manual, as someone pointed out to me recently that the Atmel tool only works on Windows. I saw that the pandrew tool is offered on Mac and Linux as well.

Offline Kavik

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2917 on: Thu, 01 July 2021, 11:59:00 »
Oh, boy, the shipping label for my order was created last night. It's finally happening!
Maybe they're waiting for gasmasks and latex to get sexy again.

The world has become a weird place.

Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2918 on: Fri, 02 July 2021, 10:42:19 »
With permission I am sharing another customer image:  Black classic style F62 case, HHKB style split right shift and split backspace, with dark gray printed keys and several blue printed keys.  I am really liking the two tone color scheme where before I was more into the one color option for the blue sets and gray sets.  I can now see a bit more clearly why so many people have ordered just the blue Enter and Esc keys for their boards or ordered one set in each color.

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Offline Pete

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2919 on: Tue, 06 July 2021, 05:44:12 »
I especially like the combination of the black classic F77 case and the dark gray printed keys. 
(Attachment Link)

Thanks for convincing me to order another keyboard.  :)


Offline reavy

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2920 on: Tue, 06 July 2021, 11:20:28 »
Help request:  Model F code refactoring for QMK submission?

Would anyone be able to help with refactoring pandrew's Model F code for submission to the QMK project?  I am hoping to have this expedited to simplify the process of changing the Model F layout.  It is my understanding that QMK will not accept the code as it stands.  If interested feel free to reply here or PM me for more information relayed to me from pandrewÖ

Iíd be willing to help. Iím a software engineer by training. I wonder what the issue is with QMK? The current work doesnít match their code style or something?

Offline reavy

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2921 on: Tue, 06 July 2021, 14:45:38 »
Are we also waiting longer for sublimation on the front-printed keys?

Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2922 on: Tue, 06 July 2021, 22:07:29 »
Thanks reavy - I will PM you.

Yes, sublimation is complete for US, HHKB, and Mac sets including pearl/pebble, blue, and 60% dark gray options.  They are now working on the remaining sets, front printed sets, and lower volume custom stuff.  A post of mine a few posts back explain the status of these sets and that they need more time.  The priority is the international sets first.

Offline Kavik

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2923 on: Wed, 07 July 2021, 19:41:27 »
After 1710 days, my F77 has finally arrived!

I got all the keys installed and working, and the next step is to try installing the solenoid!

I had some initial frustrations putting the inner assembly back together after fixing the layout (it was set up for ISO enter instead of ANSI); it's not as easy as it looks in the video. Just trying to clamp the northern end of the bottom plate (the rainbow metal part) back on after slotting in the southern end of the plate bends the bottom plate where it interfaces with the black tabs, which makes it even harder to fit under the extremely narrow slots. I had to hammer those parts back and bend the tabs with an adjustable wrench to get them to fit again. Quite the pain, so I hope I don't need to do it again any time soon.

I have a couple issues with my order that I'll email you about, Ellipse, but I will ask about one of them here since it may affect others. My right and left SHIFT and ENTER keys in both my pebble and industrial grey keysets get stuck on the downstroke because they stabilizer plunger on the keycap is too thick (maybe towards the top. They seem slightly conical in shape, which may be the cause). My black blank keyset does not have this issue (hence why they're installed in the picture). I swapped the SHIFT and ENTER keys from two different Model Ms, and they didn't have this problem on the F77. When I put the Model F keys on the Model Ms they stuck in them too and even pulled the white stabilizer guide (not sure of the term) out of the plunger. Has anyone else had this issue with the new keys?

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Maybe they're waiting for gasmasks and latex to get sexy again.

The world has become a weird place.

Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2924 on: Wed, 07 July 2021, 19:55:43 »
Kavik you may need to slightly bend back with pliers the larger metal tabs on the top end of the top inner assembly for my method to work.  No hammers needed. 

Regarding keys getting stuck please check the manual - troubleshooting section for a 100% working solution involving wiggling the stems.  With all of the tight tolerances and keys being heated up so much during sublimation, you may have to do the wiggling trick since the keys are not installed to the keyboard during shipping.  Also my inserts are best with my keys and other inserts are best with other keys.  I would not mix and match.

Offline Pete

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2925 on: Wed, 07 July 2021, 20:01:32 »

I got all the keys installed and working, and the next step is to try installing the solenoid!


Iíd love to see (and hear) some more videos of the solenoid in action inside the case.  Thatís the component Iím most eagerly awaiting since experiencing one in a keyboard over 30 years ago hooked up to a mainframe. It was an operator terminal for an IBM 360 mainframe I think and we were allowed to try typing on it. It was awesome.

« Last Edit: Wed, 07 July 2021, 20:04:45 by Pete »

Offline str8away

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2926 on: Wed, 07 July 2021, 20:33:59 »
Are pearl pebble keysets being shipped out for people that did the separate shipping option for their keyboard?

Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2927 on: Thu, 08 July 2021, 11:23:18 »
str8away everyone is currently waiting as part of the separate shipping option, outside of some of the early bird tooling supporters and single digit serials who also opted for separate shipping and received their key sets soon after I received the first batch back in late February and early March. As noted in recent months, the focus is on mailing out as much as I can of the "all in stock" keyboards and orders from those who have been patiently waiting and preferred everything to ship at once. In a couple months from now, once I've gotten out a bunch of these orders, I expect to mail out all of the separate shipping items. Printed, nonprinted, and other items are not in separate queues - I expect the queue will be approximately by order date where possible, with the "all in stock" stuff going out as the priority and no option available at the moment for "split split" shipping, as we wait for the factory to wrap up the remaining sublimation of international sets and customized individual keys and other small sets.

Offline Kavik

  • Posts: 808
Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2928 on: Thu, 08 July 2021, 21:23:25 »
Is it possible to use the solenoid with VIA? I see instructions for QMK and xwhatsit (using Capsense), but it looks as though VIA uses a special version of the QMK firmware (?). The manual has QMK instructions for setting the "Any" key to various codes like "HPT_TOG", but those didn't work. I also tried the options available in VIA (Clicky Toggle, etc), but those didn't work either. I see the light on the solenoid driver board flash when I type, so I know the signal is getting at least that far.
« Last Edit: Thu, 08 July 2021, 21:46:00 by Kavik »
Maybe they're waiting for gasmasks and latex to get sexy again.

The world has become a weird place.

Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2929 on: Sun, 11 July 2021, 12:32:46 »
Kavik the solenoid should work out of the box with my Via hex files in the manual on the project web site.  They default to being powered on.  I do not know about the custom functions not working.

I added quick order form functionality to the project web site as a test.  It lets you order any configuration of any store item from one page, without having to leave the page.  https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/quick-order-form/

Below is another photo shared with permission.  This one shows the classic style zinc True Red F77 case with pearl/pebble keys as well as Industrial SSK blue keys, and with pebble keys making up part of the home row.

272161-0

Offline MortyGoldy

  • Posts: 6
Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2930 on: Sun, 11 July 2021, 14:41:19 »
Any updates on the UK layout boards?  I saw that the first sets were shipped out in May, but around 50 were made at that time IIRC.

I've been waiting very patiently for this board to be sent but my excitement is starting to show now that the progress is so far along!!!

Offline Kavik

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2931 on: Sun, 11 July 2021, 16:49:18 »
Kavik the solenoid should work out of the box with my Via hex files in the manual on the project web site.  They default to being powered on.  I do not know about the custom functions not working.

Thanks for confirming this. I found the section in the manual with the preprogrammed keys. Fn + Spacebar + T toggles the solenoid setting on and off. When on, the light on the driver flashes. When off, the light doesn't flash. This indicated that the driver is working.

In order to narrow down if it's an issue with the solenoid, I attached a PC motherboard speaker to the driver, and it successfully beeps when I type. This indicates something is physically or electrically wrong with the solenoid itself. Any ideas what I could check there? I looks like two wires connected to a copper coil but it's all under tape, so I don't want to destroy it by investigating. I tried plugging in the solenoid both directions, but the guide says the polarity doesn't matter; however, I have noticed that the PC speaker is louder in one orientation vs the other.
Maybe they're waiting for gasmasks and latex to get sexy again.

The world has become a weird place.

Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2932 on: Mon, 12 July 2021, 14:26:57 »
First troubleshooting step is to set everything up with the factory default firmware file - more instructions in the firmware video in the manual.  The solenoid is factory set to a working configuration - no option changes needed.  Did you follow the solenoid installation guide in the manual?  If the 6 position cable was installed in the wrong direction on either the controller or solenoid driver board, you may have fried the solenoid driver.

UK key sets had an error with some of the keys as noted before.  Chyros was sent one good sample set.  UK and the other international sets will have to wait a while longer as the factory finishes things up.

Offline Kavik

  • Posts: 808
Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2933 on: Mon, 12 July 2021, 20:07:19 »
First troubleshooting step is to set everything up with the factory default firmware file - more instructions in the firmware video in the manual.  The solenoid is factory set to a working configuration - no option changes needed.  Did you follow the solenoid installation guide in the manual?  If the 6 position cable was installed in the wrong direction on either the controller or solenoid driver board, you may have fried the solenoid driver.

Yeah, I followed the manual, making sure to orient the red wire with the square pins. The fact that the PC speaker works shows that the driver is ok. I think when I tightened the screw on the L shaped mounting bracket, the screw went too far in and broke a couple of the copper wires on the solenoid's spool, so it can't complete the circuit.

I'll just order a new solenoid from you.

Thanks for taking the time to reply to my issues.
Maybe they're waiting for gasmasks and latex to get sexy again.

The world has become a weird place.

Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2934 on: Mon, 12 July 2021, 20:16:35 »
That seems odd.  Test the solenoid with a 9v battery if you can - you'll probably need some wires with header pins.  Does the solenoid cylinder move freely and 100% of the travel distance when pushed by hand?  Maybe the L bracket is bent and needs to be readjusted.

Offline Pete

  • Posts: 58
Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2935 on: Mon, 12 July 2021, 20:17:48 »
Any suggestions on where to get some yellow keycaps?
Easily from Unicomp: https://www.pckeyboard.com/page/product/CustomKey


Tried. $179 USD shipping from that site for some keycaps to my country! I guess they calculate shipping per key for international orders? Maybe a drop shipper is the solution.
« Last Edit: Tue, 13 July 2021, 00:30:43 by Pete »

Offline chayu

  • Posts: 23
Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2936 on: Tue, 13 July 2021, 10:08:03 »
You can try writing in to see if there are alternative shipping methods. Sometimes it's also an overestimation in the cost per unit as well. Doesn't hurt to try.

Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2937 on: Tue, 13 July 2021, 18:12:38 »
I wanted to share two interesting YouTube comments on the Chyrosran22 video from someone who dealt with the original IBM 4700 systems back in the day:

"Thanks for another excellent keyboard review, Thomas.
Keys sound authentic, as the banking keyboards always seemed to me to have a deader sound than the IBM PC and 3270 model F keyboards. I used to program the 4704 banking systems many years ago, and there was never that high pitched spring noise you get in your reconditioned keyboard. Managed to get my hands on a "Pingmaster" a couple of years ago, but it obviously never matched the Model Fs I have missed for decades. Been checking in on this project for a long time and am so happy this has finally shipped."

"The 4700s were usually menu based programs designed for smaller screens but similar to what might be seen on 3278 terminals linked to a mainframe. The distributed processing of the 4700 meant that transactions could be partially processed locally and then sent in batches for mainframe processing. The hardware was very reliable, with the most common points of failure being the 4701 5 1/2" floppy drives due to dust and dirt (during a reboot after a power outage), or the display unit. Keyboards were reliable and robust and in my experience front line staff only ever used the 50 key model 100. Usage and key functions tended to be similar to bespoke POS keyboards. The 4704 model 100 keyboard layout was related to the previous generation banking terminal 3604 model 1 keyboard with an extra column of keys on the RHS block, which goes some way towards explaining the unusual format. If there ever were any keyboard issues, a robust upside down tap on the desk sorted things out. I only saw the model 300 and 400 keyboards a few times. The 4700s were programmed in assembler. All these banking systems were eventually replaced by PC's. I did not work in the US, but over half of all New Zealand bank branches used 4700s at one stage. Lloyds bank in the UK used these in the late 1980s. Tellers used these terminals to process almost all front of house banking transactions. I still remember my sorrow at having to bin my trusty old AT format model F keyboard and having to use a crappy plastic model M."

I also wanted to share with permission another great customer image.  This one shows the pearl keys and Industrial SSK Blue keys:
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« Last Edit: Tue, 13 July 2021, 18:57:24 by Ellipse »

Offline Jebotres

  • Posts: 1
Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2938 on: Sun, 18 July 2021, 03:05:46 »
Spot sold, thanks.
« Last Edit: Sun, 18 July 2021, 16:42:45 by Jebotres »

Offline MHayden

  • Posts: 11
Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2939 on: Wed, 21 July 2021, 11:24:09 »
I wanted to briefly tell everyone who might be on the fence that this is a great keyboard. If you want a traditional / non-ergo keyboard, you should buy this. It will be the nicest keyboard you ever own and it will last forever.

I learned to type on the original model F back in the day and used them for years at a data entry job. Nothing I've used has ever come close. Cherry switches just don't feel as smoother when you are moving between key presses. It's hard to describe if you've never felt it, but it's very memorable and it will be the best typing experience you'll ever have.

Joe nailed it with these keyboards. They feel and sound the same as the originals did back in the day. And the quality and precision of the parts is actually a bit better. The two I bought are very consistent. And the keycaps are gorgeous and clearly printed. The build quality is as amazing as the originals and I have no doubt that these would survive a direct hit from a tornado like the ones I used at that data entry job did. One thing that particularly stands out is the space bar. It has the right feel and that very memorable sound. It brings back fond memories just using it.

I haven't tried reprogramming it because I don't really need to, but it seems straight-forward enough. I was going to try doing it for the sake of the review, and I was going to also unscrew it to take some pictures to show how easy these things are to service, but I'll leave that up to others who care about that stuff and can post more helpful information. With the service part in particular, I'm not the best person to ask since I used the originals and am already familiar with them.

There are only three downsides that I can think of, but these are inherent in the design itself:
  • These are very heavy. Even the smallest keyboard in the smallest case is far too heavy to travel with. Even taking it to and from work would be a chore.
  • He was a bit too true to the originals. The function key cluster / numpad on the F77 would have been substantially improved by having an additional column for + and enter. That limits the usability of this keyboard for spreadsheet work since he didn't offer a model that does have a full numpad.
  • The layout isn't ergonomic and I'm not sure how easy it would be for someone else here to make a version with an ergo layout. I'll be using the Model F for normal text typing, but I'm spoiled by my Kinesis when it comes to computer programming. Still, ergo layouts are a niche and I'm not really a fan of many of the more popular ones. So it'd be hard to even coordinate everyone to get one made. But if someone wants to try...

Offline blur410

  • Posts: 52
  • Location: Seattle, WA
  • Memewhile in World of Tanks...
Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2940 on: Sun, 25 July 2021, 10:08:56 »
Nevermind, unplugging and plugging back in fixed it.
« Last Edit: Sun, 25 July 2021, 10:13:40 by blur410 »
Keyboard Ownership History: Dynex(Rubber dome chicklet keys)-EXTINCT, Macbook Air 2016(Scissor switch)-ACTIVE, Razer Ornata(Mecha-membrane)-EXTINCT, Corsair K68 RGB(Cherry MX Reds)-RETIRED, Razer Tartarus Pro(Razer optical analog)-RETIRED, Idobao ID-75(NK Creams)-SHELF, HHKB Pro 3 Classic(Topre BKE MX Mount)-ACTIVE, New Model F62(Capacitive buckling springs)-ACTIVE, Realforce 23UB(Topre)-ACTIVE, BM60-RGBEC w/KBDFANS 5 Degree Case(NK BOX Pinks)-SHELF, Focus 2001 (Alps Pine White)-SHELF
Mouse Ownership History: Microsoft Mouse(Ball)-EXTINCT, Microsoft Mouse(Optical)-EXTINCT, Microsoft Gaming Mouse(Laser)-EXTINCT, Microsoft Mini Retractable Mouse(Ball)-EXTINCT, Logitech M-570(Optical Trackball)-RETIREDX2, Razer Deathadder(Optical)-EXTINCT, Razer Deathadder Chroma(Optical)-EXTINCT, Corsair Scimitar(Laser)-EXTINCT, Razer Deathadder Elite(Optical)-EXTINCT, Razer Deathadder v2(Optical)-ACTIVE, DROK iWit(Alps mechanical encoder)-ACTIVE, CST/X-keys/PI L-Trac(Laser/Optical Trackball)-ACTIVE, Ploopy Classic(Optical Trackball)-ACTIVE, Marcus RB2(Mechanical Trackball)-SHELF, Microsoft Trackball Optical(Optical Trackball)-SHELF, Logitech Trackman Vista(Optical Trackball)-SHELF, Microspeed PC-Trac(Optical? Trackball)-SHELF, Logitech Trackman FX(Optical Trackball)-SHELF, Logitech Trackman Stationary Mouse(Mechanical Trackball)-SHELF, Logitech Trackman Marble Wheel(Optical Trackball)-SHELF, Logitech Cordless Optical Trackman(Dark Gray Optical Trackball)-SHELF

Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2941 on: Mon, 26 July 2021, 11:35:11 »
As the Brand New Model F Keyboards continue to be mailed out I wanted to share another factory video.  This video shows how the top inner assembly steel plates are laser cut.  This is the first step of the process, before they are bent to shape and then finally powdercoated.  As you can tell, each hole is done one at a time so it is a relatively long process for thousands of keyboards. 

The remaining stuff for those who chose the separate shipping option is expected to start going out in a month or two. 


Offline Kavik

  • Posts: 808
Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2942 on: Mon, 26 July 2021, 13:20:51 »
First troubleshooting step is to set everything up with the factory default firmware file - more instructions in the firmware video in the manual.  The solenoid is factory set to a working configuration - no option changes needed.  Did you follow the solenoid installation guide in the manual?  If the 6 position cable was installed in the wrong direction on either the controller or solenoid driver board, you may have fried the solenoid driver.

Yeah, I followed the manual, making sure to orient the red wire with the square pins. The fact that the PC speaker works shows that the driver is ok. I think when I tightened the screw on the L shaped mounting bracket, the screw went too far in and broke a couple of the copper wires on the solenoid's spool, so it can't complete the circuit.

I'll just order a new solenoid from you.

Thanks for taking the time to reply to my issues.

A new solenoid solved the problem, and it is glorious. The original one was broken, probably because I drove a screw into the coil when I failed to install the second rubber washer (I didn't see it for some reason until after the fact). When I cut away the blue tape, I saw that some of the copper wires had been severed. So make sure to use *both* washers when mounting the solenoid with the L bracket.

It really is plug and play, which is awesome. I need to play with the settings a bit because it's really easy to type too fast for the solenoid with the default setup. I'll post a video later. The sound is really satisfying and takes this already awesome keyboard to another level.
Maybe they're waiting for gasmasks and latex to get sexy again.

The world has become a weird place.

Offline Kavik

  • Posts: 808
Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2943 on: Mon, 26 July 2021, 13:23:38 »
As the Brand New Model F Keyboards continue to be mailed out I wanted to share another factory video.  This video shows how the top inner assembly steel plates are laser cut.  This is the first step of the process, before they are bent to shape and then finally powdercoated.  As you can tell, each hole is done one at a time so it is a relatively long process for thousands of keyboards. 

The remaining stuff for those who chose the separate shipping option is expected to start going out in a month or two. 


That is very cool. I didn't realize they are individually cut. I'd imagined they were stamped out, but I suppose stamping would not achieve the precise tolerances of those holes.
Maybe they're waiting for gasmasks and latex to get sexy again.

The world has become a weird place.

Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2944 on: Mon, 26 July 2021, 13:24:45 »
Kavik are you using my firmware hex files or the firmware downloaded from the pandrew QMK site?  Pandrew's site has set the solenoid dwell time so that it is not optimal.  Mine has it set to 20ms, which works perfectly for me, even for super fast typing.  For any firmware generated on pandrew's QMK site you have to press the key about 15 to 20 times to increase the solenoid dwell time (the key combination is noted in the manual).

Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2945 on: Thu, 29 July 2021, 19:28:50 »
The first new production XT foam has arrived!

Besides almost everything being an exact reproduction of the original, even with the same type of foam material and similar dark gray color, there were two changes made - one, the removal of the vestigial foam covering part of the attached controller, and two, the pin registration holes were changed from 1/8" to 3/32" to provide an ever so slightly tighter contamination shield for the PCB.

As noted earlier I purchased tooling for the XT foam recently and started taking orders for the foam for delivery later this year.  It's a small batch - not sure if any will be left by the time they arrive in stock.

"As the Brand New Model F Keyboards continue to be mailed out I wanted to share another factory video.  Still time to customize your Brand New Model F Keyboard and order add-on accessories (like the First Aid Kit, extra key sets, etc.) at www.ModelFKeyboards.com

This video shows how the inner foam is stamped to create all the super-precise holes for the barrels and top inner assembly tabs.  You can then see a photo of the bottom of the stamping tool (basically sharp metal in the outline of all the barrels etc.), and finally a photo of the finished product.  The machine that evenly applies the stamping pressure is enormous!  You only see a tiny part of the machine in this video."

Top (original) and bottom (new) XT inner foam:
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Offline svenge

  • Posts: 33
  • Location: Buffalo, NY
Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2946 on: Fri, 30 July 2021, 11:15:18 »
Stumbled on this thread this morning and a few hours later ended up buying in.  Almost forgot about Chyrosran's video about this project.  He is the guy who originally spiked my interest in mechanical keyboards and while my tastes ended up diverging from the "vintage" market, I've always enjoyed homage products with modern convenience taken into consideration.  The blend between QMK and Model F is just a must-have.

Sooooo... Dare I ask how bad is the backlog wait time for these puppies?

Also, thanks for posting that dark-grey & blue on black chassis image above, that solidified my color choices.

Offline Pete

  • Posts: 58
Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2947 on: Fri, 30 July 2021, 16:01:25 »

Also, thanks for posting that dark-grey & blue on black chassis image above, that solidified my color choices.

I ordered another F77 after seeing that image  :) I really liked the colour combination and it reminds me of a Topre keyboard I have.

I have been trying to find similar keycaps compatible with the F77 but no luck.

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