RIP Group Buys, hello more products!
As many of you know, the Interest Check and Group Buy process made for some lengthy wait times. So now, we’re cutting back your wait time and going straight from Interest Checks into production. Now you'll get the keysets you want, in far less time. Keep in mind, we produce limited amounts of Interest Checks, so if you see something you want, be sure to get it before it's gone!
Make money off your Interest Checks
You guys have submitted some awesome keyset designs. As our way of saying “thanks,” we’re now offering users who submit Interest Check designs that go into production a 5% royalty on keyset sales. Think you have what it takes? Submit your design here!
Pros:The IC quantity is tricky because it depends on a lot of things, including the size/cost is the set, number of child kits, and how long the IC phase has been going on. I can see why they don't want to put a number on it.
- When it goes up for sale it's ready to ship.
- Clear and concise legalities; Signature Plastics can make more at any time for any reason. Perfect for those that missed out and don't want to pay inflated aftermarket prices.
- 5% to the designer.
Cons:
- They had some link issues with the legal PDF and at least one other spot I noticed as of yesterday.
- Saw another complain that multiple items within a set weren't quite functioning properly when adding them to the cart.
- The process isn't very well documented. They'll make the "popular" sets but don't go on to define at what quantity of votes an IC will be triggered for production.
I don't really like the new PMK system, for a number of reasons:
1. No "limited edition" Group Buys. When you sign the form to use PMK for your set you give them the rights to produce it whenever they choose, so the sets have less rarity value and less perceived actual value. This will probably end up resulting in a lot less sales than they hope / expect.
2. No time limits / deadlines / production schedules, etc. No group feeling / community involvement.
3. They set the prices, it's not based on MOQ, so there's no incentive to get more people to order and no hype or sense of achievement when kits meets MOQ. There's no way for us to tell if a set is a "success" or not.
It just smacks of business for profit with no real community involvement to me and tries to get designers hooked in with a 5% profit. Essentially they pay us a royalty for us to design and market their product for them.
I prefer Massdrop for GB's and will probably continue to do so and not buy sets from PMK unless it's a really GREAT one that I just have to have.
[Signature Plastics' business is] Making keycaps by commission. They make profit from any set they sell. We are their client when we order a bunch of caps made to our design. It doesn't mean it's fair for them to make and sell other people's designs at their own discretion and price, when all the design work and promotion have been done by the designer. That's like a factory that's commissioned by Volkswagen to make 100 Golfs making more at their own discretion and selling them themselves at whatever price they choose. [Not to mention being able to change the design, but still call it a Golf.] Ethical, or not?
I'm not much into creating conditions of rarity just to make keycaps collectible. I buy keycaps that appeal to me aesthetically and functionally, not keycaps that are "limited edition" or rare. I'm a typist, not a collector. This product category is niche enough already that finding what I like and want is needlessly challenging. Contriving rarity by limiting production is an odious practice, whether we're talking diamonds or keycaps, and I won't knowingly participate in the practice myself.
I'm not much into creating conditions of rarity just to make keycaps collectible. I buy keycaps that appeal to me aesthetically and functionally, not keycaps that are "limited edition" or rare. I'm a typist, not a collector. This product category is niche enough already that finding what I like and want is needlessly challenging. Contriving rarity by limiting production is an odious practice, whether we're talking diamonds or keycaps, and I won't knowingly participate in the practice myself.
Wow man. It's a shame for everybody who's ever collected anything ever, that they didn't talk to you first. You could have saved them all a lot of money.I'm not much into creating conditions of rarity just to make keycaps collectible. I buy keycaps that appeal to me aesthetically and functionally, not keycaps that are "limited edition" or rare. I'm a typist, not a collector. This product category is niche enough already that finding what I like and want is needlessly challenging. Contriving rarity by limiting production is an odious practice, whether we're talking diamonds or keycaps, and I won't knowingly participate in the practice myself.
Agreed. To be honest, I couldn't give a single **** if a design was produced forever, because otherwise it's denying so many people the opportunity to have what they want purely so some people can jerk off about their 'rare' item. Why does something have to be rare to be good? If it can't stand by its own merit, it probably isn't worth making.
I'm not much into creating conditions of rarity just to make keycaps collectible. I buy keycaps that appeal to me aesthetically and functionally, not keycaps that are "limited edition" or rare. I'm a typist, not a collector. This product category is niche enough already that finding what I like and want is needlessly challenging. Contriving rarity by limiting production is an odious practice, whether we're talking diamonds or keycaps, and I won't knowingly participate in the practice myself.+1 Increasing price by artificially limiting production does not appeal to me either.
I'm not much into creating conditions of rarity just to make keycaps collectible. I buy keycaps that appeal to me aesthetically and functionally, not keycaps that are "limited edition" or rare. I'm a typist, not a collector. This product category is niche enough already that finding what I like and want is needlessly challenging. Contriving rarity by limiting production is an odious practice, whether we're talking diamonds or keycaps, and I won't knowingly participate in the practice myself.+1 Increasing price by artificially limiting production does not appeal to me either.
On the other side I see Oobly's point to have more control over his design. But if one thinks the design is so great that the SP's conditions would undervalue it then there is an option not to use the SP's group buy.
IMO, the new PMK will result in only the most popular designs getting run. So if your "perfect" set gets, say, 150 votes at the IC stage, but at the same time there's an SA Dolch set at the IC stage which gets 600 votes, guess what will happen to the one you want. However, if it were run as a GB on Massdrop, as long as it meets the minimum MOQ it will get made. The only thing affected by the number of orders after that point is a lower price. So SP can churn out popular colorways and the only way to ensure that your design gets made is to use an external way to run the GB.
So long as SP continues to take keycap business from those other sources, and doesn't give their PMK-hosted designs undue production preference, it's all good.
I think I misrepresented my thoughts a bit in my previous post. The main point is not about limiting production, but about designers not having any control over their designs. If a designer signs the PMK agreement, they have no say in how, when, or even if their design is made. SP can alter their design however they see fit and then produce and sell it under the original name in whatever quantities and prices they choose. This may actually result in SP "creating conditions of rarity" to increase the value and thus the asking price of certain sets. They get to choose the number they make, when they get made and what price to ask for them. The point is, the designer no longer has any say. And SP does not have a good track record of listening to the community and doing what's best for it, but rather doing what's best for THEM.
When a designer runs a GB themselves or uses Massdrop, they commission SP to create a certain sized order of sets to a certain design. The number of sets made is determined by the number of orders. I have not yet seen a group buy where the designer limited the production to a certain number. Some sets are rerun if there's enough interest.
IMO, the new PMK will result in only the most popular designs getting run. So if your "perfect" set gets, say, 150 votes at the IC stage, but at the same time there's an SA Dolch set at the IC stage which gets 600 votes, guess what will happen to the one you want. However, if it were run as a GB on Massdrop, as long as it meets the minimum MOQ it will get made. The only thing affected by the number of orders after that point is a lower price. So SP can churn out popular colorways and the only way to ensure that your design gets made is to use an external way to run the GB.
As a designer, I will not agree to those terms, since I don't think it's best for the community. I still see it as SP luring designers with the promise of 5% commission to create nice sets for them to sell as their own product, since once the agreement is signed, the design essentially belongs to SP in terms of control and usage. It's their product from that point on.
I'll put my thoughts about copyright and set designs in the other thread.
MassDrop definitely handles quantity concerns better. While it's a slightly slower process it's also a more accurate process. They get the financial commitment of people and submit a large order based on that. It's definitely a better way to go for many sets on their first run. Right now, PMK seems like a 2nd run site where you'd turn to them after your initial MassDrop run and let them take care of things from that point on. It allows you to move on to other things while still netting you a 5% commission while you turn to other endeavors.
QuoteMassDrop definitely handles quantity concerns better. While it's a slightly slower process it's also a more accurate process. They get the financial commitment of people and submit a large order based on that. It's definitely a better way to go for many sets on their first run. Right now, PMK seems like a 2nd run site where you'd turn to them after your initial MassDrop run and let them take care of things from that point on. It allows you to move on to other things while still netting you a 5% commission while you turn to other endeavors.
That's exactly what I was thinking. It would also be great if the PMK drops were something like a "stripped down" version, with the initial run having more novelties or custom keys, and the PMK drops just being fairly standard alpha/modifier sets. Gives an incentive to get the first run set and make it special, while giving people the opportunity to get the style/color way they desire.
Does Massdrop pay a royalty to designers? Does Signature Plastics pay the designer if it goes through Massdrop?
The main reason I favor MassDrop at this point is because it is well known and has a strong community following. I kind of feel they have a better reputation than SP, and I'd want to leverage that good will.
But that's just my take on it.
The main reason I favor MassDrop at this point is because it is well known and has a strong community following. I kind of feel they have a better reputation than SP, and I'd want to leverage that good will.
But that's just my take on it.
Because SP failed to upgrade their site beforehand, MassDrop had stepped in and took all the orders, hence they have already built up all that extra Goodwill that SP has now lost.
Unfortunately that is how a service industry functions, if YOU drop the ball, someone else will step in and run with it to the goal line. Maybe in the end PMK should just stick with manufacturing only, just my viewpoint here.
It would be interesting to eventually talk to some of the designers who choose to use PMK's new system and find out why they have no objections. I can't help but think there's another perspective out there besides the one held by veteran designers who want maximum control over every step of the process.
If the PMK system is such that I upload kit definitions along with renders and whatever other promotional material I can come up with, and then just let their pre-order system (which they are free to call an "interest check" system if they want) determine what goes into production, I think I'd be okay with that. As long as sets are perpetually available according to (pre-order) demand, I don't have any problem with SP being in control of production schedules. Why would I want to micromanage that myself anyway?
Ultimately SP gets to decide what and when to manufacture anyway, no matter where a group buy is organized and run. If their in-house system reduces time-to-market and maintains availability in perpetuity, then I see it as a potential win for the community. I would rather see one of my sets rotate through production every few months, according to demand, than force potential buyers to wait once a year or two for some massive GB to re-organize itself and launch subsequent rounds of production.
The main reason I favor MassDrop at this point is because it is well known and has a strong community following. I kind of feel they have a better reputation than SP, and I'd want to leverage that good will.
But that's just my take on it.
Does Massdrop pay a royalty to designers? Does Signature Plastics pay the designer if it goes through Massdrop?
Yes.
No.
As long as sites like MassDrop make it easy to re-run sets then I don't see a down side to using them as a facilitator. It's just that I'd like to see something along the lines of a real "Keycap Store" where you just order what you like and the keycaps arrive at your door. Of course, the fact that designers can step in and deny their sets to an interested public is another matter, but I guess that's the price we pay for treating custom keycaps like priceless artifacts.
Does Massdrop pay a royalty to designers? Does Signature Plastics pay the designer if it goes through Massdrop?
Yes.
No.
... I would like to see improved documentation from them with regard to manufacturing guidelines, tolerances, etc. Anything to help designers and SP "get it right the first time", as it were.
... Of course, the fact that designers can step in and deny their sets to an interested public is another matter, but I guess that's the price we pay for treating custom keycaps like priceless artifacts.
I do think the PMK system does reduce time. A normal GB run through MassDrop or here would have several phases; IC, purchase window, wait for production slot. They're eliminating the purchase window and are trying to dwindle the IC window. Remember that with most group buys, once it goes into the Taking Orders phase, it can sit there a while, particularly if it's not being run by MassDrop. PMK does not take orders ahead of time so that piece is simply removed.
The time to production could be further reduced if the IC was simply hosted on PMK. I think most would rather receive feedback, particularly for first time creators. For veterans that already have everything set, this could reduce the forum IC thread to more of a marketing need.
Does Massdrop pay a royalty to designers? Does Signature Plastics pay the designer if it goes through Massdrop?
Yes.
No.
Hmmm... Not sure why anyone would prefer Massdrop.
Does PMK require exclusive rights to a design? Because if not one can still run both Massdrop and PMK and whatever else. Therefore if PMK does not require exclusivity then I do not see how it could lead to smaller availability.
Does PMK require exclusive rights to a design? Because if not one can still run both Massdrop and PMK and whatever else. Therefore if PMK does not require exclusivity then I do not see how it could lead to smaller availability.
As a side note, how many of you have submitted designs to the new system and how many are purchasing sets from it already?The whole thing has been kind of a cluster ****. They took way longer than they implied to creators and the results don't reflect that extra time in development. The site is still full of bugs and missing content. The original idea was great but the execution has been poor. And there are still many unanswered questions.
urm... seems their interest check submission login is broken... so nobody will be able to submit one until they fix that.
There is one real way I can see PMK sets being produced faster... If they bump existing orders to run the sets. If this happens, though, their reputation with the community will NOT be improved.
@Niomosy: Nobody can post one until they fix the submission login system. I tried to login to get to the page so I can see the latest version of the license file, but it's quite severely broken and needs work before anyone can use it. As a software developer (who works with web technologies) I have to say that their site should definitely not have been "unveiled" in the state it was in. They've fixed a lot of stuff since the first "release", but they've still got a ways to go before it's actually usable. You don't make a site live until it's ready... you just don't. This is incredibly unprofessional.
It seems strange, does SP just have less consumer awareness than MD? It's the only explanation I can think of for them having lower amounts of buyers and longer delivery time.
Of course! They're not consumer-facing in the least. The most consumer-like people they usually communicate with is people organizing GBs.
Meh, Massdrop is actually pretty niche, especially outside the US. Shipping to Norway is often over 30 USD, for example.Shipping aside as PMKs shipping hurts the same and after that you have to visit customs too. Anyway i want to point out that MassDrop reaches more people out there. Thats a fact. I know many people outside of US, who checks MassDrop on daily basis.
Yeah, this thread probably shouldn't devolve into one about MassDrop, but I thought MassDrop was a group buying site. The whole point of group buying is to lower the cost of highly specialized, custom made-to-order items that would otherwise cost a fortune to have made one at a time for just one customer. If you can buy something you see on MassDrop through a conventional purchasing avenue, then the group buy is utterly pointless.
Yeah, this thread probably shouldn't devolve into one about MassDrop, but I thought MassDrop was a group buying site. The whole point of group buying is to lower the cost of highly specialized, custom made-to-order items that would otherwise cost a fortune to have made one at a time for just one customer. If you can buy something you see on MassDrop through a conventional purchasing avenue, then the group buy is utterly pointless.
Well that hasn't happened yet.
A dope set hitting PMK
I plan to do something along those lines for this:Show Image(http://deskthority.net/resources/sa-dasher-in-3d-mockup/24022)
Someone is listening... :D
This from the president of SP, Bob Guenser:
"I totally understand your concern about giving SP the right to change the design. That was not the intention of the agreement.
First of all, we are manufacturers not designers and would never presume to make an improvement or change without first discussing it with the designer. The License Agreement has been modified to clarify that point.
Secondly, it was never our intention to have permanent control and usage of the design. To address this we have added a statement allowing the designer to rescind the Agreement."
I will be reviewing the changes as soon as I have the document, but this puts the system in a whole new light. As a designer, that settles all the main issues I have with it. :thumb:
Also:
"For most of this year we have been making extra sets of GB orders and selling them through our Key Shop. Eve, Deep Space, Midnight, Modern Selectric and Juke Box (for sale shortly) are examples. We are very aware there is still strong interest in other sets like 1976 (SA), Nuclear (SA) and Symbiosis (SA) but our SA tooling (thanks to Massdrop) is booked into next year. Because we don’t want to extend current manufacturing lead times, we, unfortunately, have decided NOT to run extra sets of Carbon (currently in production) and Danger Zone (next in queue). It’s not that we aren’t listening, we simply don’t have the capacity at this time to meet the sudden demand in SA sets. We have been running overtime for two month and increasing our tooling capacity to help us meet this unexpected demand."
So things are better than I'd hoped. Let's see how things go once the site is fully operational.
Glad to see that they're increasing their SA tooling. It seems to be needed with both the current SA sets being produced and upcoming sets. Three large orders up for production, one currently in buy status, and pretty fair number in IC status looks to have their SA tooling rather busy well into 2016.And Row 4 2.25u and 2.75u molds for SHIFT keys, as said in another post. That's pretty awesome, as a matter of fact.
Does PMK require exclusive rights to a design? Because if not one can still run both Massdrop and PMK and whatever else. Therefore if PMK does not require exclusivity then I do not see how it could lead to smaller availability.
What I do understand, from another post, is that the color scheme can be replicated (as it isn't copyrightable) but you can't use novelty keycap legends without the designer's authorization. Using the 1976 keyset as an example, you could replicate the keycaps colors, but couldn't use the '1976' legends.
Melissa is a friggen saint.
One other thought on the reproduction of sets and novelties. As far as I'm aware, the novelties can be redone but two criteria would need to be met.
First, they would need to not fall under legal protection (text based novelties and certain simple shapes that wouldn't fall under protection come to mind).
Second, you would need to recreate the molds to avoid needing permission to use the existing molds.
Indeed.
By the same token, I'd like to see an optional clause I could sign whereby I could hand over the design to them so they could run it whenever there's demand, without having to bug me about it every time.
I believe you should be able to just let SP know of your intent there that it can be run. Wasn't there another set that did this? For some reason I recall that being the case.
One of the reasons I put the idea out there that "vintage colorways" might be a useful product category almost unto itself is that I have this idea for a 60% case project; the kind of thing that could be prototyped at a maker facility like TechShops. This case would be a top-cover as well as a base to fasten onto, it would be lightly textured aluminum, and it would be molded to remind you of an IBM Selectric. It could be painted in any of the classic Selectric colors, but my first prototype would be brown, like my Selectric II at home.
So if the goal is to have a 60% that looks like a mini IBM Selectric, then you need 60% SA keycap sets that are all one color. The most iconic colors were: charcoal gray, medium gray, and bright blue. We have medium gray (Honey GREY). We have a medium blue (Cadet BLUE) but not really a bright blue. Dasher's light blue might suffice, but that might not be ideal. And right now we don't have a charcoal (near-black) gray set in fully sculptured SA. Honey's NN black keycaps could substitute for the time being, but something like GB gray would be better, I think.
Sets like that which are basically just full sets in one vintage-y color, not unlike the Filco set, feel like good candidates for the PMK store. If there was a MassDrop run of the Selectric case, then folks will want somewhere to turn for the keycaps, and right now there is no place to go where you can just order the color you like. There is if you want blanks or generic dyesub DSAs, but not if you want a 60% sculptured SA set in one of the "IBM colors".
Two reasons come to mind. Modern Selectric has custom legends, the cost of which is surely folded into the kit cost. Also, the Jukebox prices are probably based on the volume cost of the initial run which tends to have the highest volume, and therefore lowest prices. Modern Selectric could be in a "re-run" phase where production quantities are lower and prices a bit higher as a result.
One of the reasons I put the idea out there that "vintage colorways" might be a useful product category almost unto itself is that I have this idea for a 60% case project; the kind of thing that could be prototyped at a maker facility like TechShops. This case would be a top-cover as well as a base to fasten onto, it would be lightly textured aluminum, and it would be molded to remind you of an IBM Selectric. It could be painted in any of the classic Selectric colors, but my first prototype would be brown, like my Selectric II at home.
So if the goal is to have a 60% that looks like a mini IBM Selectric, then you need 60% SA keycap sets that are all one color. The most iconic colors were: charcoal gray, medium gray, and bright blue. We have medium gray (Honey GREY). We have a medium blue (Cadet BLUE) but not really a bright blue. Dasher's light blue might suffice, but that might not be ideal. And right now we don't have a charcoal (near-black) gray set in fully sculptured SA. Honey's NN black keycaps could substitute for the time being, but something like GB gray would be better, I think.
Sets like that which are basically just full sets in one vintage-y color, not unlike the Filco set, feel like good candidates for the PMK store. If there was a MassDrop run of the Selectric case, then folks will want somewhere to turn for the keycaps, and right now there is no place to go where you can just order the color you like. There is if you want blanks or generic dyesub DSAs, but not if you want a 60% sculptured SA set in one of the "IBM colors".
I agree. Some base colours would be nice to have as sets available to buy on the store. But deciding which colours to use would be a problem. There are a lot of colourways that could be considered "classic".
You could also run the caps as a concurrent GB with the case. I'm sure there's be people who don't buy the case interested in the caps and vice versa.
You could also run the caps as a concurrent GB with the case. I'm sure there's be people who don't buy the case interested in the caps and vice versa.
One of the reasons I put the idea out there that "vintage colorways" might be a useful product category almost unto itself is that I have this idea for a 60% case project; the kind of thing that could be prototyped at a maker facility like TechShops. This case would be a top-cover as well as a base to fasten onto, it would be lightly textured aluminum, and it would be molded to remind you of an IBM Selectric. It could be painted in any of the classic Selectric colors, but my first prototype would be brown, like my Selectric II at home.
So if the goal is to have a 60% that looks like a mini IBM Selectric, then you need 60% SA keycap sets that are all one color. The most iconic colors were: charcoal gray, medium gray, and bright blue. We have medium gray (Honey GREY). We have a medium blue (Cadet BLUE) but not really a bright blue. Dasher's light blue might suffice, but that might not be ideal. And right now we don't have a charcoal (near-black) gray set in fully sculptured SA. Honey's NN black keycaps could substitute for the time being, but something like GB gray would be better, I think.
Sets like that which are basically just full sets in one vintage-y color, not unlike the Filco set, feel like good candidates for the PMK store. If there was a MassDrop run of the Selectric case, then folks will want somewhere to turn for the keycaps, and right now there is no place to go where you can just order the color you like. There is if you want blanks or generic dyesub DSAs, but not if you want a 60% sculptured SA set in one of the "IBM colors".
I agree. Some base colours would be nice to have as sets available to buy on the store. But deciding which colours to use would be a problem. There are a lot of colourways that could be considered "classic".
You could also run the caps as a concurrent GB with the case. I'm sure there's be people who don't buy the case interested in the caps and vice versa.
I think we could probably capture some basics with relative ease. Glancing back through old keyboards for some classic inspiration, it could be something put up to vote for a few basics; basic beige, blue, black, gray. I think those four tend to cover the major classic cap colors. Pick a set for each color and you're off and running. That way other designers can still change the colors and offer up something unique while new users are easily able to jump in with a decent selection of available caps.
One of the reasons I put the idea out there that "vintage colorways" might be a useful product category almost unto itself is that I have this idea for a 60% case project; the kind of thing that could be prototyped at a maker facility like TechShops. This case would be a top-cover as well as a base to fasten onto, it would be lightly textured aluminum, and it would be molded to remind you of an IBM Selectric. It could be painted in any of the classic Selectric colors, but my first prototype would be brown, like my Selectric II at home.
So if the goal is to have a 60% that looks like a mini IBM Selectric, then you need 60% SA keycap sets that are all one color. The most iconic colors were: charcoal gray, medium gray, and bright blue. We have medium gray (Honey GREY). We have a medium blue (Cadet BLUE) but not really a bright blue. Dasher's light blue might suffice, but that might not be ideal. And right now we don't have a charcoal (near-black) gray set in fully sculptured SA. Honey's NN black keycaps could substitute for the time being, but something like GB gray would be better, I think.
Sets like that which are basically just full sets in one vintage-y color, not unlike the Filco set, feel like good candidates for the PMK store. If there was a MassDrop run of the Selectric case, then folks will want somewhere to turn for the keycaps, and right now there is no place to go where you can just order the color you like. There is if you want blanks or generic dyesub DSAs, but not if you want a 60% sculptured SA set in one of the "IBM colors".
I agree. Some base colours would be nice to have as sets available to buy on the store. But deciding which colours to use would be a problem. There are a lot of colourways that could be considered "classic".
You could also run the caps as a concurrent GB with the case. I'm sure there's be people who don't buy the case interested in the caps and vice versa.
I think we could probably capture some basics with relative ease. Glancing back through old keyboards for some classic inspiration, it could be something put up to vote for a few basics; basic beige, blue, black, gray. I think those four tend to cover the major classic cap colors. Pick a set for each color and you're off and running. That way other designers can still change the colors and offer up something unique while new users are easily able to jump in with a decent selection of available caps.
I guess they could make them like the black and white dcs sets they offer: TKL, alphas, mods, numpad. Gives people options to use any combination base and mods, although I think just TKL and numpad would probably be good enough (and it's easier to work our how many to run).