Overworked thumbs with dox-like designs

[Zustiur]

I've been using the ErgoDox and my personal variations on that design for about 18 months.
Just recently I've discovered pain in the fleshy part of my thumbs, which I'm now convinced is caused by this design coupled with my current key layout. I'm no good with anatomy but from looking at google images, I think the pain is in my abductor pollicis brevis muscle.
Has anyone else had trouble with overworked thumbs using the 'Dox or one of the now numerous variations?

I think in my case I've 'improved' the ergodox too much! Instead of the thumb clusters being too far away, they're now too close. Specifically, my placement of the space keys on the bottom row of an ergodox (which I did because the ergodox thumb cluster was too far away) has lead to my continually curving my thumb inward to press both space and FN.
I'm hoping that a remapping of keys to put space where my current backspace/enter keys are and some related shuffling will alleviate the problem. At least for long enough to build a new board.

This begs the question, if we ignore the issue of potentially overlapping other keys, what is the ideal placement of the primary thumb key, assuming a flat keyboard? I say flat meaning I'm not dealing with contoured curved keyboards, the thumb keys here are in a flat plane with the rest of the keys.

Paying extra attention to my thumbs because of this issue, I've noticed that now (and perhaps before too?) my left and right thumb 'resting' spots are actually different. At rest, my left thumb sits comfortably on the space/fn key of ZusDox1 and ZusDox2. My right thumb however rests most comfortably just to the side of that key, between it an enter.

There are a few other minor issues with this design so I'm willing to make version 3, but I'd like to take some of the guess work out of thumb key placement. I'm not sure how to go about doing that though. Hopefully someone here (Jacobolus?) can give me a pointer or two about the workings of thumbs so that I can determine the best spot without going through multiple iterations of fully build keyboards.

I'm also now looking once again into multi-part designs which will let me put the thumb in a different plane, however given that the pain seems to have been triggered by the inward-curling of my thumb, I'm not totally convinced that pressing keys with that motion is going to help!

[ideus]

I read another thread on the ErgoDox causing some stress on the thumbs, but I cannot find it; so, this is only a heads up in case you want to search for it, it may add some information for your design decisions. The OP there, mentioned that getting back to a regular flat keyboard healed his pain at some degree.

[PieterGen]

I'm also now looking once again into multi-part designs which will let me put the thumb in a different plane, however given that the pain seems to have been triggered by the inward-curling of my thumb, I'm not totally convinced that pressing keys with that motion is going to help!

I suppose you know Hogy's board? Also, I remember a theory of Jacobolus that sounded logical: thumb switches in the normal plane are best for hit keys, like Space, or Esc. In a different plane they may be better suited to hold keys, like Shift or Alt.

[localredhead]

I've actually been dreaming for years of a laptop with this same keyboard layout - only replacing the middle pgUP/pgDN with a small mousepad or trackball and it would be quite literally exactly what I want.

I laptop with a keyboard like that would be evolved, to say the least.

[localredhead]

I'm also now looking once again into multi-part designs which will let me put the thumb in a different plane, however given that the pain seems to have been triggered by the inward-curling of my thumb, I'm not totally convinced that pressing keys with that motion is going to help!

I suppose you know Hogy's board? Also, I remember a theory of Jacobolus that sounded logical: thumb switches in the normal plane are best for hit keys, like Space, or Esc. In a different plane they may be better suited to hold keys, like Shift or Alt.

I can relate to this with my ergodox's.  I switched back to a 60% and much of my pain went away.  The only way I can use an ergodox without pain is to use sculpted keys and tenting.  i hate the look of sculpted keys on an ergodox, aesthetically.  I don't want to tent it because I'm always trying to adjust it to get it to feel better or different, which I perceive as better.

My OCD goes into overdrive with that many variables so I just use an kinesis because its good enough and programmable and my OCD can focus on code.

[Zustiur]

I don't recall Hoggy's board, I'll look it up.
Yes, switching back to my regular TKL board removes the thumb pain after a few days. Unfortunately that's exactly how long it takes for my other fingers to start complaining again. I've been juggling between TKL and ZusDox2 for a couple of weeks to ensure that no part of my hand gets overstressed for long.

In a different plane they may be better suited to hold keys, like Shift or Alt.

That sounds really familiar. I think I'll put the theory to the test in my firmware. No more space/fn. At the moment fn is the only key my thumbs hold down. I'll put FN under my pinkies instead. A and O.

I've actually been dreaming for years of a laptop with this same keyboard layout - only replacing the middle pgUP/pgDN with a small mousepad or trackball and it would be quite literally exactly what I want.

Yeah that's also very similar to what I'm considering for ZusDox3. Tented alphanumeric hands, with a nav cluster in the middle flat on the desk, and a touchpad mounted above and in front of the nav cluster.

[tp4tissue]

You have to modify your technique.


Are you tented ?

[Zustiur]

You have to modify your technique.


Are you tented ?

Currently untented because of the work I do. Tenting doesn't suit because I spend so much time with one hand on the mouse and still need access to the whole keyboard with the other hand. The crappy software we use just isn't suited to mouseless data entry.

sent via tapatalk

[tp4tissue]

You have to modify your technique.


Are you tented ?

Currently untented because of the work I do. Tenting doesn't suit because I spend so much time with one hand on the mouse and still need access to the whole keyboard with the other hand. The crappy software we use just isn't suited to mouseless data entry.

sent via tapatalk

Well, overall,  there is an adjustment in technique when it comes to the ERgodox, because the thumb cluster is a little further on..

But the TENTING ability is what makes the Ergodox, an Ergodox..

No other keyboards tent as well as the Ergodox..


This was not by design, but just by coincidence, the ergodox has screw-holes in the right places to twist and tent it across any axis..

[Phenix]

And which screws do U need for that?

[tp4tissue]

And which screws do U need for that?

they sell packs of m3  40mm and 50mm bolts.

I recommend the 50mm

You will also need a standoff kit to put 2x 50mm bolts together for ~70mm of tenting that gives you around 26-28 degrees of tilt.


2x80mm will give you roughly 40 Degrees of lift.. 

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00CTWD4EQ/ref=oh_aui_search_detailpage?ie=UTF8&psc=1



Wait wait, ,found 80mm on amazon.. https://www.amazon.com/Stainless-Steel-Phillips-Screws-60pcs/dp/B012TE09JQ/ref=sr_1_cc_1?s=aps&ie=UTF8&qid=1469113269&sr=1-1-catcorr&keywords=m3+screw+80mm

[hoggy]

You have to modify your technique.


Are you tented ?

Currently untented because of the work I do. Tenting doesn't suit because I spend so much time with one hand on the mouse and still need access to the whole keyboard with the other hand. The crappy software we use just isn't suited to mouseless data entry.

sent via tapatalk

Have you looked at Macro Express / Autohot key.  You could create macros that select controls or push buttons for you when you press a combination of keypresses...

[hoggy]

I'm also now looking once again into multi-part designs which will let me put the thumb in a different plane, however given that the pain seems to have been triggered by the inward-curling of my thumb, I'm not totally convinced that pressing keys with that motion is going to help!

I suppose you know Hogy's board? Also, I remember a theory of Jacobolus that sounded logical: thumb switches in the normal plane are best for hit keys, like Space, or Esc. In a different plane they may be better suited to hold keys, like Shift or Alt.

I don't recall Hoggy's board, I'll look it up.
Yes, switching back to my regular TKL board removes the thumb pain after a few days. Unfortunately that's exactly how long it takes for my other fingers to start complaining again. I've been juggling between TKL and ZusDox2 for a couple of weeks to ensure that no part of my hand gets overstressed for long.

In a different plane they may be better suited to hold keys, like Shift or Alt.

That sounds really familiar. I think I'll put the theory to the test in my firmware. No more space/fn. At the moment fn is the only key my thumbs hold down. I'll put FN under my pinkies instead. A and O.

I've actually been dreaming for years of a laptop with this same keyboard layout - only replacing the middle pgUP/pgDN with a small mousepad or trackball and it would be quite literally exactly what I want.

Yeah that's also very similar to what I'm considering for ZusDox3. Tented alphanumeric hands, with a nav cluster in the middle flat on the desk, and a touchpad mounted above and in front of the nav cluster.

I'm flattered, but I'm sure you've got me mixed up...