Author Topic: Finger Stiffness From Topre Switches (Read 15906 times)

itlnstln · « **on:** Fri, 26 February 2010, 07:39:58 »

Has anyone experienced any finger stiffness from using Topre switches? It seems that since I got my HHKB, I have been waking up with stiff knuckles. It only lasts for a few minutes, but it hurts to make a fist, but once I open and close my had a few times, it's OK. I don't know if it's because the additional tactility switching from Cherry browns is causing me to push harder, thus bottoming out more. Perhaps, since I have used browns for the past year exclusively, my fingers just need to adjust to the new switch and force curve. It doesn't really bother me much during the day, as I keep my fingers moving typing all day, but it does concern me. I really like the HHKB, and I don't want to have to sell it, especially since I can't get a refund, but I also don't want to be causing any long-term injury. My GF would be disappointed if something were to happen to my fingers.

bigpook · « **Reply #1 on:** Fri, 26 February 2010, 07:59:23 »

hasn't happened to me yet on the HHKB but had something similar when I was using the filco with white xm's. Typing on that was a workout for the fingers...

itlnstln · « **Reply #2 on:** Fri, 26 February 2010, 08:04:41 »

Did it go away over time, or is it something that still bothers you?

bigpook · « **Reply #3 on:** Fri, 26 February 2010, 08:19:28 »

It went away within a few days. I had to stop using the XM switches, sadly, they were too much on the fingers.
I have not had that problem with any other keyboard, including the IBM's. The black alps, orange alps and fukka's that I use are fine also.

itlnstln · « **Reply #4 on:** Fri, 26 February 2010, 08:22:15 »

Weird. I think I will keep after it for one more week. If I still have problems with it after that, I might have to give up on it. I don't want to do any permanent damage.

bigpook · « **Reply #5 on:** Fri, 26 February 2010, 08:27:09 »

how hard are you pounding on the HHKB. IIRC, the cherry browns are pretty close in feel to the Topre; I think the Topre is alot smoother overall though. But neither one requires alot of effort to press.
I remember going to a cherry brown after coming of a BS switch and was just hammering them. It took a few weeks to settle down and learn to go lightly. Even then it didn't hurt my fingers, I created quite the racket though.
Who said browns are quiet? lol

itlnstln · « **Reply #6 on:** Fri, 26 February 2010, 08:36:51 »

I think that's part of the problem. Over my keyboard "history," I have gone from heavier to lighter switches. To me, the Cherry browns feel a little lighter than the Topres, but I believe that's due to different force curve. The tactile point is much sharper in the Topre than the Cherry browns, so I feel like I am getting that "Tug-O-War" effect where I have to use a certain amount of force to push through the tactile point to where I can't stop before bottoming out. I don't feel like I am absolutely pounding the keys, but I am pressing them harder. I do notice that I miss keystrokes from time to time by not pressing hard enough. It could be, too, that I just need to wear these switches in a bit and get them loosened up.

MsKeyboard · « **Reply #7 on:** Fri, 26 February 2010, 08:38:49 »

itlnstln,
I would look more at how you are positioning your hands than worry about the switch. Have had a Realforce on my desk for months, and just can't seem to go back to anything else for more than a few hours.
Let us know what happens...............Later

itlnstln · « **Reply #8 on:** Fri, 26 February 2010, 08:58:39 »

Quote from: webwit;160848

It would prevent you from putting the trash outside?

No, doing the dishes.

itlnstln · « **Reply #9 on:** Fri, 26 February 2010, 09:03:50 »

Quote from: MsKeyboard;160846

itlnstln,
I would look more at how you are positioning your hands than worry about the switch. Have had a Realforce on my desk for months, and just can't seem to go back to anything else for more than a few hours.
Let us know what happens...............Later

Will do. I think I use a pretty standard position, but I'll make sure I'm not doing anything too weird. On that note, it might be something where this new (and awkard, at times) layout might be putting my fingers in some odd positions. It's mainly my right hand that hurts (the middle knuckle on my fingers), and that hand is in charge of handling the Fn key and the related actions. My left hand hurts less, but it's role is not much different than its role on a regular keyboard layout.

itlnstln · « **Reply #10 on:** Fri, 26 February 2010, 09:04:26 »

Quote from: ripster;160852

Could be the layout. Are you one hand "clawing" the navigation keys?

This is why I still would prefer the HHKB3 have arrow keys.

Pretty much.

bigpook · « **Reply #11 on:** Fri, 26 February 2010, 09:29:14 »

I map the function key over on the left hand side. I still do the 'claw' but don't find it to cause any discomfort. I really like not having to move my hand to use the arrow keys.
That and the easy access to page up/down and home/end make it pretty awesome to me.

But to get there I had to put Fnc on the left side.

bigpook · « **Reply #12 on:** Fri, 26 February 2010, 09:44:11 »

screw emacs, real men use vi

itlnstln · « **Reply #13 on:** Fri, 26 February 2010, 09:45:20 »

Quote from: bigpook;160868

I map the function key over on the left hand side.

D'oh. I'm kind of an idiot. Here I am clawing the Fn key on the right side, and I have had it mapped on the left the whole time. I need to get used to using it.

itlnstln · « **Reply #14 on:** Fri, 26 February 2010, 09:51:29 »

Nope. That guy looks so weak that he needs the Segway, because he doesn't have the leg strength to walk. That, and there's no way you could be a man and have your pants pulled up that high.

itlnstln · « **Reply #15 on:** Fri, 26 February 2010, 09:57:59 »

You're damn straight.

bigpook · « **Reply #16 on:** Fri, 26 February 2010, 10:10:12 »

Quote from: itlnstln;160877

Nope. That guy looks so weak that he needs the Segway, because he doesn't have the leg strength to walk. That, and there's no way you could be a man and have your pants pulled up that high.

maybe, but he looks like he has some serious nerd cred.

bigpook · « **Reply #17 on:** Fri, 26 February 2010, 10:11:07 »

Quote from: webwit;160878

Yeah I guess you are right, you bought a **** emacs keyboard from a weakling, and payed hundreds of dollars for it!

: ) I don't even use emacs...

itlnstln · « **Reply #18 on:** Fri, 26 February 2010, 10:14:05 »

Quote from: bigpook;160883

maybe, but he looks like he has some serious nerd cred.

That's not something I, personally, value. That said, the Guidos on Jersey Shore aren't men in my book, either. They also make me ashamed to be Italian.

Quote from: bigpook;160884

: ) I don't even use emacs...

1, 2, 3, not it!

TexasFlood · « **Reply #19 on:** Fri, 26 February 2010, 10:17:37 »

Quote from: itlnstln;160877

There's no way you could be a man and have your pants pulled up that high.

Quite the broad generalization, I must say!

megarat · « **Reply #20 on:** Fri, 26 February 2010, 10:19:44 »

I got hand pain from the HHKB so I switched over to my homemade Alps board and the pain went away. In my case I don't think it was the layout because it was equally in both hands. But the pain was a dull ache that occurred after extended use, not when waking up in the morning. (I think it's because I'm used to/prefer heavier switches and either was tensing up so I wouldn't bottom out, or was bottoming out too much.) It didn't feel like a long-term-injury-type of pain, but either way, it went away just fine when I switched (no pun intended).

Mental Hobbit · « **Reply #21 on:** Fri, 26 February 2010, 10:24:42 »

Quote from: webwit;160875

Show Image

Webwit looks nicer than I imagined.

keyb_gr · « **Reply #22 on:** Fri, 26 February 2010, 10:31:05 »

Quote from: bigpook;160872

screw emacs, real men use vi

But vi isn't an operating system, silly...

hyperlinked · « **Reply #23 on:** Fri, 26 February 2010, 11:00:57 »

Quote from: ripster;160852

Could be the layout. Are you one hand "clawing" the navigation keys?

I'm thinking along the same lines as Ripster. I would think that clawing at the arrows might be a possible culprit. If it is indeed pain that you're getting as a result of using the HHKB, then the most repetitive and unusual aspects of HHKB use is what I'd zero in on.

There's a downside to being able to keep your fingers glued to the home row most of the time and it's that you amplify the repetitive nature of some aspects of typing, which is already very repetitive. We have a lot of people here who are really concerned about the loss of efficiency or the potential injuries that you can have from reaching for certain keys, but the flip side of having everything closer is that you hit the same keys more often. Some people may be done in by awkward reaching and some may be done in by cumulative overload.

I'm sure you've used heavier switches before so it seems unlikely that a slight change in the force curve alone will thrash your knuckles unless there was a typing techinque problem in there as well. If it was the force curve alone that was causing you problems due to fatigue, you'd be more likely to get soreness in the muscular webby space right below the base of your knuckles in your hand.

How do you have your keyboard situated? Do you have an adjustable keyboard tray, a keyboard drawer, or is it on a desk? How do you sit at your workstation?

itlnstln · « **Reply #24 on:** Fri, 26 February 2010, 11:12:46 »

Quote from: hyperlinked;160900

How do you have your keyboard situated? Do you have an adjustable keyboard tray, a keyboard drawer, or is it on a desk? How do you sit at your workstation?

My keyboard is on a desk. The height is right at my elbows, thus when I sit up straight, my upper arm and forearm make a right angle (I usually lean back when I type as it helps keep my wrists straight, and it's comfortable). I have had this setup for about 6 years, now, so I don't think it's the culprit. After reading this dicussion, I am leaning to the new layout as the culprit more so than the switches.

TexasFlood · « **Reply #25 on:** Fri, 26 February 2010, 11:22:21 »

Quote from: ripster;160897

We're drifting off topic AND THIS IS A SERIOUS MEDICAL CONDITION!

I recommend {see above}

"Soft Silicone Funny Stress Reliever Toy"

That was my first thought, that it looked like a, uh, stress reliever, ahem, :happy:

hyperlinked · « **Reply #26 on:** Fri, 26 February 2010, 12:32:09 »

Quote from: itlnstln;160902

After reading this dicussion, I am leaning to the new layout as the culprit more so than the switches.

How long have you had the HHKB as your primary keyboard? How many hours a day are you at it?

itlnstln · « **Reply #27 on:** Fri, 26 February 2010, 12:33:22 »

I got it Monday, and I use it about 10 hours a day off and on.

hyperlinked · « **Reply #28 on:** Fri, 26 February 2010, 12:56:31 »

Quote from: itlnstln;160926

I got it Monday, and I use it about 10 hours a day off and on.

Did you have any of these symptoms in any manner before you started using the HHKB? Is it something that would occasionally bother you once in a while, but has since bothered you every day since you started using your HHKB?

elbowglue · « **Reply #29 on:** Fri, 26 February 2010, 12:59:30 »

Heres how I see it:
For what it's worth, comparing the topre switch between the cherry brown, the topre's don't "spring back" as much. That is, on the return after a keypress it gives you less force. I found this to be less satisfactory as often I bottom out so I can get a quick rebound and "spring" to move on to the next key. Topre does not support you in doing this as much as cherry browns do.

In this very busy graph below taken from the topre wiki, you can see there is a major difference in force between 2mm and 4mm in the cherry browns vs topre. I assume this is the same for downstroke as well as upstroke. Therefore, when you are deep in the key (beyond the activation point), the topre "rests" more, whereas the cherry brown "pushes back" more. The spring on the topre provides little to no force resistance, and if it does, it only provides it in the first 2mm travel before the switch actuates.

Why do we bottom out in general, why don't we just stop at the actuation point? Well, I think it's because when you are typing faster, you rely on the heavier resistance at the "beyond actuation" point to bounce your finger back to get to the next key quickly.

itlnstln · « **Reply #30 on:** Fri, 26 February 2010, 13:01:07 »

I had no problems before the HHKB, so it's either layout or the switches or a combination of the two. I think another week or two will allow me enough time to get acclimated to the 'board, and if I don't, I'll switch back. That would be pretty disappointing, though.

itlnstln · « **Reply #31 on:** Fri, 26 February 2010, 13:05:42 »

Quote from: elbowglue;160935

Heres how I see it:
For what it's worth, comparing the topre switch between the cherry brown, the topre's don't "spring back" as much. That is, on the return after a keypress it gives you less force. I found this to be less satisfactory as often I bottom out so I can get a quick rebound and "spring" to move on to the next key. Topre does not support you in doing this as much as cherry browns do.

Why do we bottom out in general, why don't we just stop at the actuation point? Well, I think it's because when you are typing faster, you rely on the heavier resistance at the "beyond actuation" point to bounce your finger back to get to the next key quickly.

This is what I was thinking at first; that's why I initially blamed the switch. My reasoning was that since I don't bottom out as much or as hard on the browns, that the more and harder bottoming out I am doing on the Topre was causing some sort of trauma to my fingers, thus the pain in my knuckles. Since I am right handed, and my right hand is stronger, I was causing more trauma in my right vs. my left.

itlnstln · « **Reply #32 on:** Fri, 26 February 2010, 13:11:45 »

Now that I did realize that I mapped Fn to the left Option button, I am going to use that to avoid clawing so much. I am also going to try typing a little softer, too, so I don't slam into the bottom, especially if I don't have to.

bigpook · « **Reply #33 on:** Fri, 26 February 2010, 13:19:18 »

Fn on the left is the only way I can use the HHKB. I think it should be there by default. No idea why they put it on the right side as thats were the arrow keys are. Maybe if I had 6 fingers on my right hand it would work....
I think if you give it a go on the left side you will find it very comfortable. Once you adjust you will find yourself looking for the Fn key on every other keyboard you use and actually get mildly annoyed that you have to move your right hand, all the way over to BFE just to use the arrows keys.
Really, it is annoying.

bigpook · « **Reply #34 on:** Fri, 26 February 2010, 13:47:48 »

thats cool but its all too busy for me. I like it on the left.

itlnstln · « **Reply #35 on:** Fri, 26 February 2010, 13:57:52 »

Quote from: webwit;160943

Well, I also have a Fn on the left, but that is just silly. Put you index finger over an arrow key, and your little finger hovers over Fn.

This is how I use the arrow keys. The left Fn is better for the multikey combos I having problems with earlier this week.

hyperlinked · « **Reply #36 on:** Fri, 26 February 2010, 16:25:10 »

Quote from: itlnstln;160938

...that the more and harder bottoming out I am doing on the Topre was causing some sort of trauma to my fingers, thus the pain in my knuckles. Since I am right handed, and my right hand is stronger, I was causing more trauma in my right vs. my left.

I don't think it's very likely that you'd injure your knuckles from bottoming out for four days unless you have glass hands or are trying to punch the keys through the bottom of the board. Bottoming out is bad because of the excess strain it places on your flexor tendons and muscles in your hand and possible decrease in circulation and increase in inflammatory response that the strains can cause.

ricercar · « **Reply #37 on:** Fri, 26 February 2010, 17:46:39 »

Quote from: itlnstln;160829

Has anyone experienced any finger stiffness from using Topre switches? It seems that since I got my HHKB, I have been waking up with stiff knuckles. It only lasts for a few minutes, but it hurts to make a fist, but once I open and close my had a few times, it's OK. I don't know if it's because the additional tactility switching from Cherry browns is causing me to push harder, thus bottoming out more.

This sounds like my symptom from a brown to black keyboard after 2 years on browns. I'd suggest it's the changed key characteristics, not a layout issue: caused by bottoming out, or force curve.

For me it went away (without giving up the new keyboard) within a week, by varying my situation A LOT. I switched mice every night, alternated between 2 different black keyboards, and a brown, and now my pain is all abated.

Maybe there's a penalty (or curse) when you leave Cherry browns after a long time. Maybe brown users are just sensitive and prone to conspiracy theories like ripster said.

elservo · « **Reply #38 on:** Fri, 26 February 2010, 23:57:28 »

I'm of the school of thought that your hands are just getting used to the new claw techniques you're adopting with your new keyboard. I think your right hand just isn't used to making such movements, but now that you're changing fn hands, I bet you that your hand pain will cease.

You guys are all so thorough with everything, and much more knowledgeable, but I just wanted to give a simple explanation. I can say that when I switched from rubber domes to cherry blues, I took a few days before I felt comfortable with it. I typed constantly in order to enjoy the new switches, and I paid for it with a little bit of fatigue and some stiffness, but that's all gone now.

I think it's just a new way of pointing your fingers that is giving your muscles some pain. Keep flexing those fingers and take a lot of breaks. You know you never want to give up those Topres! I certainly wouldn't.

elservo · « **Reply #39 on:** Sat, 27 February 2010, 13:45:35 »

You're all permitted to throw money at me, though. Paper money, please. Just need enough money to get an HHKB Pro of my own, thanks guyz!

TexasFlood · « **Reply #40 on:** Sat, 27 February 2010, 22:42:05 »

Quote from: webwit;161208

Are you like this? Then I might consider it.

Imagining webwit grabbing his roll of ones and heading out the door.

elservo · « **Reply #41 on:** Sat, 27 February 2010, 23:33:13 »

Glad I didn't let my grandmother click that link!

ricercar · « **Reply #42 on:** Sun, 28 February 2010, 16:02:04 »

Quote from: webwit;161208

Are you like this? Then I might consider it.

Acting skill and chest flatness about the same as Keanu Reeves?

ricercar · « **Reply #43 on:** Sun, 28 February 2010, 17:31:09 »

Ew-ew-ew! Ew! Ewwwie-ew-ew!

I really wish we had not gone there.

TexasFlood · « **Reply #44 on:** Sun, 28 February 2010, 18:02:15 »

No kidding, ruined it for me. Now imagining Keanu Reeves in drag rather than Lucy Liu, :sad:

ricercar · « **Reply #45 on:** Sun, 28 February 2010, 18:37:39 »

Something to help us move on.

EDIT:This one will offend ripster, so I posted the other first.

Rajagra · « **Reply #46 on:** Sun, 28 February 2010, 19:07:20 »

Quote from: ricercar;161290

Ew-ew-ew! Ew! Ewwwie-ew-ew!

I really wish we had not gone there.

Too late!

rdjack21 · « **Reply #47 on:** Sun, 28 February 2010, 20:30:21 »

Oh I don't know I'm partial to cats especially these kinds of cats:

>

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Author Topic: Finger Stiffness From Topre Switches (Read 15906 times)