HHKB Topre vs Gateron Clear on 60%

[LoveYouFyi]

fyi, i'm a programmer...
A) HHKB layout is absolute best stock keyboard layout on the market, and also the absolute best looking keyboard.  After using it for 1 week, the layout was the most accommodating and efficient layout of any keyboard I've used regardless of the number of keys on the board. 

B) Topre.... I suppose for people who are into bells and whistles the "thock" could be music to some people's ears, but regardless of that, I'm sorry to say, those Topre keys are destroying your fingers. 

C) I returned that HHKB even though I wanted to keep it because it looked so cool.  But I've been using keyboards and mice for 20 years now.  Unfortunately, I have learned some lessons the hard way.  After the first 3 years, using mice destroyed my right hand.  I was forced to switch to my left hand for mouse use.  To this day, I can't use my right hand with a mouse, if I do, it only takes 5 minutes before my hand and arm start hurting.  I was forced to try every different kind of mouse...  Air mouse, mouse pads that work by using you fingers on a pad, or with a pen, roller balls, etc, etc.  Mouse I have been using for the last three years is Steel Series Sensei (rubber exterior).

D) Enter the last 5 months.  I had a project that took 12 weeks, and I averaged 15 hours a  day 7 days a week on my keyboard.  As a result, some underlying problems with ergonomics came to a head. 

E) I bought HHKB and loved the layout and look.  Keys were too resistant.  I purchased an all 30g Topre board on Reddit, and converted my HHKB to all 30g.  Yay!  That was good for about 3 days.
 Even then the keys were not easy enough on my fingers. 

F) Enter the search for a 60% layout with absolutely the least resistance... I got a 60% Gateron Clear.

G) 60% Gateron Clear keyboard: KBParadise V60:  https://mechanicalkeyboards.com/shop/index.php?l=product_detail&p=1481
The keys are very easy to activate and have little resistance.  I believe these are rated at 30g but believe me, 30g on a cherry/gateron is much easier to activate than 30g topre.  I love these switches. 
The stock gateron clear switches had two issues that bugged me a bit:
1) a bit click clacky noisy,
2) travel distance a bit to far.
Fixed both problems with the purchase of Blue Rubber O-Ring Switch dampeners that have a reduced travel distance of 0.4mm. 
The kbparedise keyboard is not of superb quality, but it is okay enough.  I'm using the switches I need. 

H) Now I'm looking to get a custom board with HHKB layout and Gateron Clear switches. 

Summary
While the layout and looks of HHKB are excellent, the health of your fingers are much more important.  If you've got money to spend on a HHKB, go a bit farther and get someone to build you a custom board with the HHKB layout and Cherry or MX Switches that are not slowly but surely thocking your fingers to death... literally and actually. 

[dgneo]

those Topre keys are destroying your fingers. 

Gonna need more proof other than 'i'm a programmer'.

Been using HHKB and 55g RF for a couple of years now with no issues.

[clasicks]

fingers of baby man

[LoveYouFyi]

Gonna need more proof other than 'i'm a programmer'.

Why are you getting so offended by my personal experience and therefore forewarning of others about what I've painfully discovered about the hazards of keyboard and mouse life. 
I have no need to prove anything to anyone.  I'm simply sharing some wisdom.  Take it or leave it. 

[kmba]

You're making a blanket statement based on one person's experience.

[dgneo]

Gonna need more proof other than 'i'm a programmer'.

Why are you getting so offended by my personal experience and therefore forewarning of others about what I've painfully discovered about the hazards of keyboard and mouse life. 
I have no need to prove anything to anyone.  I'm simply sharing some wisdom.  Take it or leave it. 

Not offended at all, I offered my counter-argument that I've been using both an HHKB and even heavier 55g RF daily for years and my fingers feel fine. Just curious how you came to the conclusion that Topre is destroying my fingers.

[LoveYouFyi]

Not offended at all, I offered my counter-argument that I've been using both an HHKB and even heavier 55g RF daily for years and my fingers feel fine. Just curious how you came to the conclusion that Topre is destroying my fingers.

Okay, cool.  You sounded offended because you said I'm going to need to show you proof, rather than you simply reading my message and taking it for what it is... personal experience and a word of caution.  If you don't have the problems yet, then that's nice.  Many people do have these problems.  A direct result of using keyboards for many years, and the problems are often due to the amount of force required to actuate the key... and yeah, who knows how many millions of times you need to do so until you, too, have problems.  Usually, people don't look for a solution to a problem until they have the problem.  But many people do end up having this problem.   

[ygor]

dg will you calm down, man. Geez.

[kenmai9]

keyboards get you laid

speaking from my personal experience

[DALExSNAIL]

keyboards get you laid

speaking from my personal experience

More likely to get you laid than to "destroy" your fingers

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[SpAmRaY]

keyboards get you laid

speaking from my personal experience

More likely to get you laid than to "destroy" your fingers

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I think I'm gonna lock my HHKB up just to be safe, wouldn't want it sneaking out and hurting anyone.

[Hordak]

Everybody is different, I'll tell you my experience.

What affects pain? The most important thing is the angle of your wrists. But broken down:
1. The vertical angle of your wrist while typing/mousing must be flat.
2. The point where your wrists touch the surface must be very well cushioned. It has to be soft enough so you don't develop calluses and fatigue.
3. Your elbows must support the weight of your forearms. They should rest on the cushioned surface of your chair's armrests and have to be close enough to your body so that when you are typing, the horizontal angle between your wrist and forearm is close to zero. That's very close, and most chairs suck.
4. The way you handle your mouse is important too. Avoid large movements and use a finger grip. Get an optical mouse with a high dpi and try to only use your fingers.

Personally, I use Artisan XSoft Zero mouse pads to underlay both mouse and keyboard. They are very thick and spongy, plus they are made of a kind of memory foam that adjust to your position. Having a homogeneous surface when reaching from your keyboard to mouse is beneficial, because it reduces the amount of work and keeps your wrists at a stable angle. A 60% keyboard will help with supporting that angle, because everything is closer together.

The weight/resistance of the switch comes second and has more to do with how competent a typist you are. For me, a heavy switch will amplify my weaknesses.

[daerid]

I've been using QWERTY layout and mice for 25 years now? Daily. The last 15+ years have been upwards of 12+ hours a day on average. Several of those years have been on 55g/45g Topre (including a HHKB, FC660C, and RF 87U). I too am a programmer.

I have had zero problems with pain or RSI, except once: when I used an ErgoDox for a year. That's my personal experience.

So yeah...

My point is mainly that personal experience is just that. Just because I haven't had problems, or just because OP has, doesn't mean you will or won't.

Listen to your body, figure out what works best for you. That might be Topre, that might be Cherry, hell... it might be rubber dome. Everybody's ergonomics have different requirements.

[Ouster]

If you are having problems with your fingers and hands hurting i recommend you check out the Kinesis Advantage. It's a split ortho layout that uses two key wells that are angled and sculpted for your fingers to keep your wrists and hands in a relaxed and natural position. I've been using one for a year and always recommend it to people with any typing stress injuries.

I also use a HHKB half the time and also love the layout for programming. Topre are by far my favorite switch and I personally think they are better than most other switches for typing stress because they are so smooth and have such a cushioned bottom out. To each their own though.

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[letsfixitinpost]

After the first 3 years, using mice destroyed my right hand.  I was forced to switch to my left hand for mouse use.  To this day, I can't use my right hand with a mouse, if I do, it only takes 5 minutes before my hand and arm start hurting.  I was forced to try every different kind of mouse...  Air mouse, mouse pads that work by using you fingers on a pad, or with a pen, roller balls, etc, etc.  Mouse I have been using for the last three years is Steel Series Sensei (rubber exterior).

May I recommend a vertical mouse?  I deal with a myriad of hand problems, arthritis, RSI, tendonitis.  I have discovered that a vertical mouse has seriously prolonged my stamina.  A nice 90 degree angle for your arm and a vertical mouse is worth trying.  Check out this Anker mouse, its dirt cheap, I own 3 including a wireless one and leave them at work sites.

no affiliation link here: https://www.amazon.com/Anker-Ergonomic-Optical-Vertical-Buttons/dp/B00FPAVUHC/ref=sr_1_1_sspa?ie=UTF8&qid=1517521988&sr=8-1-spons&keywords=anker+vertical+mouse&psc=1

[eksuen]

A) HHKB layout is absolute best stock keyboard layout on the market, and also the absolute best looking keyboard. 

Speak for yourself. I find the HHKB to be a terrible layout and a mediocre looking keyboard.

[Altis]

You can get 30g/35g Topre domes. I have 30g in my Realforce 108UH JIS layout. I much prefer lighter switches in general, and they're even a bit light for me... certainly easy on the fingers though.

With Topre you can swap out domes for different weightings. It's way easier than changing springs on Cherry switches, too.

[monkt]

With Topre you can swap out domes for different weightings. It's way easier than changing springs on Cherry switches, too.

Where do you get replacement domes? I wasn't even aware this was an option.

[DALExSNAIL]

Just checking in to confirm that my fingers are in fact, NOT destroyed, and not turned to dust. They feel quite nice actually.

[sebna]

Destroyed your right hand by using mouse for 3 years? And you say you mostly type so light mouse use I assume.

I use mouse for 32 years daily as part of my profession and hobby at minimum 8h at times double that. Guess what, my right hand is doing fine...

Not to mention my fingers...

...



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