Moving past Keychron and GMMK (not pro)

[problemxyz]

Bottoming out keeps sounding and feeling harsh on my Keychron K6

Mods Ive tried
* Put noeprene foam in
* Tried Gateron Milky Yellows lubed with Trybosis 3203
* Tried Feker Panda's lubed with Trybosis 3203
* Changed and tuned stabs to levels that satisfy quite well (holee mod).
* YMDK dye sub PBT keycaps

Been comparing sound tests with for instance this guy

 who added GMK keycaps and real holy panda switches. The sound is quite similar and the pitch of mine is actually even a tad lower.
I could try switches that are known for a good sound (Boba thock, Gateron Ink and NK Creams come to mind)
So Im really wondering if I maxed out my K6 in terms of modding and this is a sign that my preference moved to snob territory.

I tried similar mods with my GMMK full size, modded, got stabilisers good. Lubed gat browns, box jades, geteron Yellows, have been in there..
GMMK doesn feel or sound harsh, but the tactile and acoustic response of the keyboard itself is starting to feel even a bit yucky in a way. Like a wet cardboard box-like cheap feeling thud.

Both minor points that I pointed out are starting to distract me even and slightly annoy me. To the point where Im wondering should I just go back to an apple keyboard because it wan't bothering me to a greater degree.

Anyone can relate? And will something like a Leopold get me closer to better feelings, or will I be needing something like a keycult.
I know this is hyperpersonal, so my question isn't really I want people try to point out to me what I like. Which I realise is ridiculous and impossible.
But more like anyone have similar experience and what was an improvement for you? Just for inspiration really.

Also, Im trying to save and get into a groupbuy of a higher level keyboard at some point but something to hold me up in the meanwhile but doesn't bother me like the Keychron or GMMK would be grand.

[jamster]

Want good sound, good switch action, and tactile?

Just get a Realforce and call it a day 

(Unless you enjoy constant modding, which is fair enough)

Edit: I like the little sound test you do at the beginning of the video. Keyboard... sounds good to me.

[problemxyz]

The sound test isn't my keyboard, its a test to show that mods with better material than mine still sounds similar.

In your opinion you'd go for an actual Realforce or just a good Topre board like Leopold HHKB or even Niz Plum?

[jamster]

I was referring to the calibration sequence of mouse clicks and finger snaps

I don't have extensive experience with EC. I have RF 55g, BTC5100 (no idea on weight), Royal Kludge 45g (an EC clone akin to the Niz, I believe). I have never used the HHKB.

If you're after sound, RF is distinctly different. The BTC sounds like rattly crap. The RK is factory silenced (not hugely silent, but quieter and higher pitched, depends on caps). The RF is stock and comes with thin PBT, which I suspect contributes to the sound profile, which I find quite pleasing.

[problemxyz]

So yeah to answer your question, 40% of me wants to have fun modding
60% wants to be happy and call it a day. A niz plum could be an affordable step towards topre. And I have been hearing this thing about Topre and how it converts people.

One other aspect of mechanical keyboards still I must say is programmability. So that leaves the Topres out again...
Im after sound and feel combined.

[Leslieann]

So Im really wondering if I maxed out my K6 in terms of modding and this is a sign that my preference moved to snob territory.

Not snob territory but you have reached a limit for what a plastic chassis'd MX keyboard can probably offer.

Both minor points that I pointed out are starting to distract me even and slightly annoy me. To the point where Im wondering should I just go back to an apple keyboard because it wan't bothering me to a greater degree.

This is part of the issue, you're comparing (what I suspect) is a scissor to MX,
MX bottom out plastic against plastic, it can't sound like scissor which is not only rubber on pcb, but adds a lot of bottom out damping. Dampenned switches will help with some of this, but it will never sound or feel like a scissor or rubber dome, there's simply not enough room for it. That doesn't mean it needs to feel bad or sound bad though.

Why not get a ten pack and try them?
If it works, great, get some others and your problem is solved.

Also, Im trying to save and get into a groupbuy of a higher level keyboard at some point but something to hold me up in the meanwhile but doesn't bother me like the Keychron or GMMK would be grand.

There's a heck of a lot lot of room between a Keychron or GMMK and something you get in a group buy.
While you could try something nicer like Leopold, the issue here is you would need to desolder before you could do much to it. once you've had lubed switches odds are you won;t be happy without them again. You may want to check out Chinese offerings before going the group buy route.

[problemxyz]

Well snob territory just for the record I was joking but yes plastic chassis'd is what I was trying to say I think.

This is part of the issue, you're comparing (what I suspect) is a scissor to MX,

I wouldn't say comparing the feeling, but maybe rather the level of dissatisfaction itself. As in im truly wondering if the annoyances with current MX boards are approaching the same level of annoyance of a scissor board. As different as the reasons for the annoyances are because of course they are worlds apart.

Why not get a ten pack and try them?

Yes I should have mentioned this, I bought a 72 switch tester which didn't tell me much for obvious reasons. But Also tried a full set ghazew Boba U4, which felt too chalky and sticky.
But I guess your suggestion is even slightly different: get a 10 pack of even more different switches becauslle you realise a single switch in a tester won't give you the experience but a full deck of 70 switches would be too expensive to try a great variety. Interesting...

While you could try something nicer like Leopold, the issue here is you would need to desolder before you could do much to it. once you've had lubed switches odds are you won;t be happy without them again. You may want to check out Chinese offerings before going the group buy route.

Well that's the thing, I have gotten comfortable with soldering and desoldering recently. Also I'm currently working through an old ducky one to practice installing mill max sockets so if a Leopold would be a step up in feel, I wouldn't be limited by the stock switches in any way.

[Leslieann]

so if a Leopold would be a step up in feel, I wouldn't be limited by the stock switches in any way.

It's likely to be a step up, the question is will it be enough.

[Volny]

You need to get dampened (aka 'silent') switches, pure and simple. All the other stuff is just pissing in the wind.

Pandas sound and feel great when you're first trying them out, but when it comes to typing on them, they end up feeling like you're typing on concrete. As Leslieann says, your finger is smashing hard plastic against hard plastic. Nothing that you place underneath that (foam, expensive gasket-mounted case, etc.) is going to change the fact that your finger is smashing hard plastic against hard plastic.

I went through the exact same thing. I still use my pandas for certain less-pressed keys (eg. numbers) but for alphas and key punctuation, I've gone with a silenced switch (in my case Boba U4s). I really like the feel of my keyboard now, and my knuckles are much happier too.

[problemxyz]

You need to get dampened (aka 'silent') switches, pure and simple. All the other stuff is just pissing in the wind.

You must have read past where I said I even have those exact Bobu U4 silents 

Even though I realise hard plastic against hard plastic can only be so mellow, I was curious to see where acoustic response could play a role.

Nothing that you place underneath that (foam, expensive gasket-mounted case, etc.) is going to change the fact that your finger is smashing hard plastic against hard plastic.

But then again who said I want to change something about 'smashing' hard plastic against hard plastic per se. I mean seems pretty obvious to me. So what?
To me the whole appeal of mechanical keyboards is materials interacting with eachother en finding your way through tiny differences by experimenting.
Foam yes I can see how that cannot change too much. But gaskets and/or plate material, you sure? Or a more firm chassis I can image there is less amplification.

So bottomline: Things are too boxy and harsh now, but I don't like the silenced switches either (my experience being with Boba U4 silent tactiles in particular)

[Volny]

But then again who said I want to change something about 'smashing' hard plastic against hard plastic per se.

You did. In the first sentence of your thread. The plastic against plastic is exactly where your harsh bottom out comes from.

I actually didn't like the Boba U4s initially either. They seemed gravelly to me. But when I changed the springs for longer ones (I think 16mm) they feel a lot better. I forgot about this or I would have mentioned it previously. You could try that (if you don't have spare springs, try some from existing switches).

If you want to get a better sense of whether or not you like silent switches (and not just whether or not you like the Bobas), it might be worthwhile buying a small amount of a silenced linear. Something really smooth and 'transparent' like an Alpaca or a Kaihl box pink, though any silent linear would probably do.

This way you can see if you like the bottom out feeling of the silicon-padded stem, without any of the other tactile attributes getting in the way. You said the U4s felt chalky and sticky - I think there's a good chance you wouldn't say that about Alpacas. In which case there may be some other silent tactiles out there that you like.

I've only tried Kaihl silenced Box Browns and Zilents myself, though I've got some other silent tactiles coming in the mail. I find the former great but very light on tactility (just like original cherry browns - that's just the style). I find the Zilents to be pretty terrible - there's a low friction pretravel before a sudden stop, and only then the tactile bump begins. So they feel like I'm bottoming out twice. I actually like the zilents in my key switch fidget toy because the double bottom out gives my jittery fingers lots to play with. But for typing they feel rattly to me.

If you decide that silenced stems definitely aren't for you, then you might want to have a closer look into which switches bottom out with the stem pole, and which with the stem sides. I might be wrong but I believe that pandas bottom out by hitting their extra long stem pole against the housing. This gives them the thick sound people like but also makes them feel jarring, since that force shoots up/down directly to/from your finger without any cushioning from the stem body structure. Try some tactiles that have a shorter pole (and bottom out by hitting the two sides of the stem against the housing) and see if they feel better.

[jamster]

Just tossing this out there as a datapoint (because the OP has already said that he prefers customisability of firmware so EC is unlikely.)

I've tried at least 5 types of silenced switch for my last keyboard and dislike the bottom-out feeling of all of them compared to Topre. The feeling is simply too mushy whereas EC has a soft yet firm (not the best description admittedly) bottom out that is less clacky than o-rings on MX. I am willing to put up with the mushiness of silenced MX style for the reduced sound and compatibility with other board types, but it's a compromise rather than a feature.

Just got a bunch of the U4s in for my next build, recommended by @HungerMechanic. Same thing- bottom out feels mushier than my preference, they do indeed feel a little 'gritty', but I still prefer them over other MX silenced switches.

I haven't tried modding any these silenced switches with spring lengths as Volny mentioned, I have kids so time is somewhat at a premium.

[problemxyz]

You did. In the first sentence of your thread.

I don't see the only source of harshness as coming from hard plastic smashing hard plastic. Or I still kindof refuse to see it that way but that may be naive on my part. In my experience at this moment it's mostly the sound for me and I have a hunch that the sound dictates the feeling for the most part for me personally.
Because if anything, and speaking from a pure tactility standpoint, the feeling of hard plastic 'smashing' hard plastic is actually what im after. Which you have pointed out to find jarring, while I'm inclined to look at it the opposite way.

Maybe another way to phrase my goal is to combine thocky sound with natural feel from the switches and board as much as possible.

I should have mentioned two other cases where I introduced rubber into the switches: 1. Kailh burnt oranges with an 002 Oring on the bottom 2. Jailhoused Gateron blues.

Yes, nr 2. isn't an example of soft material interfering with the bottom out. But there is a common thread in the feeling I have from all 3 (nr3 being boba) where the squishiness bothers me a little too much. I'd say the condom analogy is perfect.

But when I changed the springs for longer ones (I think 16mm) they feel a lot better.

If you want to get a better sense of whether or not you like silent switches (and not just whether or not you like the Bobas), it might be worthwhile buying a small amount of a silenced linear. Something really smooth and 'transparent' like an Alpaca or a Kaihl box pink, though any silent linear would probably do.

This way you can see if you like the bottom out feeling of the silicon-padded stem, without any of the other tactile attributes getting in the way. You said the U4s felt chalky and sticky - I think there's a good chance you wouldn't say that about Alpacas. In which case there may be some other silent tactiles out there that you like.

You made me realise now that I was writing off silencing options too easily though. Awesome suggestions here. Especially with the Boba's I wouldn't mind ordering spring to see what would happen.

If you decide that silenced stems definitely aren't for you, then you might want to have a closer look into which switches bottom out with the stem pole, and which with the stem sides. I might be wrong but I believe that pandas bottom out by hitting their extra long stem pole against the housing. This gives them the thick sound people like but also makes them feel jarring, since that force shoots up/down directly to/from your finger without any cushioning from the stem body structure. Try some tactiles that have a shorter pole (and bottom out by hitting the two sides of the stem against the housing) and see if they feel better.

Haven't considered this either. Makes a lot sense, if the sides make impact, more force spread laterally. Interesting! And altough I don't have the feeling that the counterforce itself is an issue, this could as well just be a feeling that im digging more.
Then again, to your point, I haven't felt as much difference betweem milky yellows and holy pandas as I had initially hoped. So there's that.

Plenty to explore without necessarily having to get another keyboard, I appreciate the suggestions!

, they do indeed feel a little 'gritty', but I still prefer them over other MX silenced switches.

Im delighted to discover this new optimism for the Boba U4's. Because I really want like them.

soft yet firm

Or just get a realforce.

Plus yesterday I FOMO'd into the Keychron Q1 launch. I have my foam ready.
What can you do.

[Leopard223]

Aside for mounting style, I found that some swithces, feel softer to bottom out than others. 

Kailh BOX switches are really harsh to bottom out both in sound and feel, on the other side, the U4Ts (while they also bottom out on the pole) sound and feel much softer, I assume due to Gazzew's mystery material.

You can try getting a gasket mount board, I havn't used one but the consensus it makes the board sound and feel soft, the market rages about it this days so finding one should be easy.

[problemxyz]

After I had it let simmer for a bit, im getting more and more confident that the answer will be a combination of elements each give a small improvement. Or get a topre haha (not 100% joking though).
Im also pretty sure now its not a different feel im after but simply a less harsh sound. So in that sense the Feker are pretty close to what I like in terms of feel.

A logical step would be getting the Boba U4T's but they sold out everywhere at the normal price. $1 or more everywhere else yikes.

I did already order longer springs to see how the silents would turn out.
Maybe im going to try getting the bumpers out and see if I like it. I won't turn them into the actual u4t's like this guy already found out. But it looks like its reversible.
Worth trying I think.

Aside for mounting style, I found that some swithces, feel softer to bottom out than others. 

Kailh BOX switches are really harsh to bottom out both in sound and feel, on the other side, the U4Ts (while they also bottom out on the pole) sound and feel much softer, I assume due to Gazzew's mystery material.

I share that feeling for the most part, although I was surprised how little difference in harshness there is between my milky gat yellows and the feker holy panda(see my earlier post)

You can try getting a gasket mount board, I havn't used one but the consensus it makes the board sound and feel soft, the market rages about it this days so finding one should be easy.

Yes as ive stated Im waiting for a keychron q1

[problemxyz]

Update

I found someone locally who sold a GK64. It's plastic and boxy sounding, but in a way that I kindof like it, being all rattly and shaky but in a way that it makes the keyboard a lively sort of funbox.
There was a feeling that the K6 and the GMMK had an acoustic reponse that was putting me off not because of the hollow sound or harsh per se, but the type of hollow or harsh sound. But then you think nah that's unlikely, 1. two keyboards of a different make both sound annoying so it must be the cheapness itself. And 2. That's why Keycults exist.

Only to end up with this GK64 and go hm, ...  this keyboard may actually be good enough.
Considering canceling my order for the Keychron Q1 even ...

Keyboards are so bloody elusive. Wouldn't mind it becoming more mainstream tbh.

EDIT: Didn't cancel the Q1 and got it instead. Changed my mind on the GK64 again, its not as fun anymore. But the Q1 is. And it's clear it's all in the acoustic response of the keyboard. I read in the other thread about the switches how sound influences the feeling like smell does taste. And/or how smell is taste. I feel similar, because with my headphones on, the difference in feel definitely diminishes.