Author Topic: greasing the white xm switch (Read 24152 times)

bigpook · « **on:** Sat, 07 February 2009, 13:46:39 »

I am still on the filco with blue cherries and have pretty much settled into it as a day to day keyboard.
The filco with white xm switches, while initially very satisfying became a bit too much as the days went by. My fingers would actually get tired as the keys began to feel balky when pressed.
Sadly, I put the keyboard aside and moved on.

I posted awhile back about the problem and wellington suggested silicon grease.

I gave it a go and took some pictures. While I need to plug it in an try it for a week or so my initial impression was/is that the silicon grease improves the action. The key is not as recalcitrant as it once was. The noise is still there though..
Will it replace the bue cherry that I am using now? I don't know yet. We'll see : )

Here are the tools I used. The picture doesn't show the gerber multi-tool though.

the key ring with paper clips worked really well.

I used the straightened paper clip in combination with the mini screwdriver to seperate the top housing.

Here it is without the top assembly, I had already removed the click leaf before I took this picture.

The gerber multi-tool is somewhat magnetic. Here it is lifting the spring out. I had to use a fine needle-nose plier to get the click leaf out.

Thankfully, the white stem would sit on the top of the screw driver. This kept my hands free and clear when I applied the grease. I put a small bead on the face that the click spring rests on. I also put a smear on the sides and back.

This is the best picture I have of the greased stem at rest in the top assembly.

Here is the tricky part. I was able to insert the screw driver into the spring. It fit nicely. I would use this method to set the spring on the tit at the bottom of the assembly. On some keys I had to use the gerber tool as a rest to raise the front edge of the keyboard to allow the spring to stand up.
I have no pictures of that : (

But once the spring is standing up it was easy to put the top assembly back on. After awhile it goes pretty quick.

Not that it matters but I had taken the keyboard apart at one point. Thanks to billm for showing that it could be done. I used a plastic drywall knife. Its about 4 inches across. This tool worked nicely in separating the top and bottom assemblys. The front of the keyboard was kind of difficult as it REALLY IS connected. At one point I thought I was going to break it.
But it finally relented and seperated.

wellington1869 · « **Reply #1 on:** Sat, 07 February 2009, 14:04:00 »

hey pook, nice deets

So you're saying the grease reduces the balky bump? By how much, would you say? I might have to try this on my dell at101w (i've been trying to make it smoother and lighter, I wound up squishing the click leafs but that made it too light).

bigpook · « **Reply #2 on:** Sat, 07 February 2009, 14:23:57 »

Don't know if I would try squishing the leafs. How would you do that consistently?

Yes, the grease works very well. As a test, I greased all of the keys with the exception of the F keys. I don't use the F keys as often and its nice to have something to reference it too. I would say the grease removed the balky bump completely. The key feel is still roughly the same, only smoother.

As a side note, the larger keys have a metal stabilizer bar attached to the underside. Its a little bit more work removing those keys, and is somewhat of a pain putting them back on. But not impossible.

wellington1869 · « **Reply #3 on:** Sat, 07 February 2009, 14:28:10 »

Quote from: bigpook;21096

Don't know if I would try squishing the leafs. How would you do that consistently?

well, very carefully, basically

It came out ok consistency-wise, but it went from too-balky to not-balky-enough. I'm going to just replace them with the aekii click leafs which are just about identical.

Quote

Yes, the grease works very well. As a test, I greased all of the keys with the exception of the F keys. I don't use the F keys as often and its nice to have something to reference it too. I would say the grease removed the balky bump completely. The key feel is still roughly the same, only smoother.

sounds nice, I'll give it a shot.

bigpook · « **Reply #4 on:** Sat, 07 February 2009, 14:33:35 »

Quote from: wellington1869;21097

well, very carefully, basically It came out ok consistency-wise, but it went from too-balky to not-balky-enough. I'm going to just replace them with the aekii click leafs which are just about identical.

sounds nice, I'll give it a shot.

Interesting. I plugged the white xm back in and am using it as I type this.
After reading your post, I would definitely go with the grease versus bending the click leaf. The feel of the white xm is still there, and it still fights as you press the key down, its just that now, the balky resistance at the end is gone.
It makes the key more usable for me now.
All the above is purely my opinion. YMMV.

itlnstln · « **Reply #5 on:** Mon, 09 February 2009, 07:30:01 »

I have that same Husky screwdriver. It was one of the best tool purchases I have ever made.

wellington1869 · « **Reply #6 on:** Mon, 09 February 2009, 13:24:55 »

Quote from: itlnstln;21199

I have that same Husky screwdriver. It was one of the best tool purchases I have ever made.

its funny, i was admiring that screwdriver too

bigpook · « **Reply #7 on:** Mon, 09 February 2009, 14:18:46 »

: ) I have gone through a few of those. They can be found at Home Depot, and maybe Loews and were around 5 dollars or so. The only problem I have with that tool is that the bits are somewhat brittle. For normal day to day use it will be fine. But if you try to force the screw the bit will break.
Otherwise it is a really nice tweaker.

wellington1869 · « **Reply #8 on:** Mon, 09 February 2009, 15:02:28 »

its the kind of screwdriver where you want to pick it up and look for something to screw

bhtooefr · « **Reply #9 on:** Mon, 09 February 2009, 15:26:36 »

I've got one of those, too, as well as a version (if I can find it) with miniature hex bits (or was it Torx?) that I got for working on my iBook.

Bluemercury · « **Reply #10 on:** Tue, 10 February 2009, 11:43:46 »

What kind of switch is the xm ???looks like my alps macally 96....

itlnstln · « **Reply #11 on:** Tue, 10 February 2009, 12:12:49 »

Quote from: Bluemercury;21314

What kind of switch is the xm ???looks like my alps macally 96....

It is an Alps-wannabe. Any more specific, and I couldn't tell you. There are too many variations to care about.

wellington1869 · « **Reply #12 on:** Tue, 10 February 2009, 13:28:46 »

its the same switch that is in the newer mk96 models. in the mk96 i think everyone called it a "white strongman", but I think filco rebranded it as "xm".

bigpook · « **Reply #13 on:** Tue, 10 February 2009, 16:30:20 »

Is it just me or does anyone else here think the white xm switch is a bit too balky?

I greased the stems and all but its still not enough, don't know.

zwmalone · « **Reply #14 on:** Tue, 10 February 2009, 16:32:02 »

The only other member I know of having one was billm and he didn't like it. IIRC he replaced all the XMs with ALPS Bigfoot blues...

xsphat · « **Reply #15 on:** Tue, 10 February 2009, 16:34:33 »

This Alps thing gets more and more confusing by the day. I though the XM switches were the same as the ones in the MK96, but now that's not so anymore?

Chloe · « **Reply #16 on:** Tue, 10 February 2009, 16:44:27 »

They are the same type. My KPT-84 also has these switches. I began to replace them with original ALPS but I'm not sure which I prefer. I've been using the IBM 5576-A01 almost exclusively.

bigpook · « **Reply #17 on:** Tue, 10 February 2009, 18:15:55 »

Quote from: zwmalone;21358

The only other member I know of having one was billm and he didn't like it. IIRC he replaced all the XMs with ALPS Bigfoot blues...

I have a PM over to billm and am waiting to hear from him. I initially like the xm switch, it was the closest in fell to the BS keys and had a really great sound to them. Its just that my hands would get tired after alot of typing.
The grease helped a bit, but its still a bit too much. I would like to take the black alps out of the Dell AT101W and put them in the filco. I just need to make the time to get it done.
The blue cherries are working out really well for me now, so its not so bad.

wellington1869 · « **Reply #18 on:** Tue, 10 February 2009, 20:26:49 »

Quote from: bigpook;21357

Is it just me or does anyone else here think the white xm switch is a bit too balky?

I thought it was balky

sandy55 · « **Reply #19 on:** Tue, 10 February 2009, 21:53:42 »

Quote from: bigpook;21378

I would like to take the black alps out of the Dell AT101W and put them in the filco.

If you think about stem swapping, it won't help to solve your problem.
If you think about swapping key modules ( de-soldering/soldering ), then I would like to recommend you to use Oranges on AEK or AEKII without square *s* at the lower right corner in a bottom label rather than blacks on DELL AT101W. These are all tactile/non-click anyway.
If you need clicking sound, you can get faint clicking sound with wellingtons method.
Why Oranges?......Because those boards are cheap

I do not use silicone grease around stems and inner walls except M's BS.
Instead, I use SmoothAide ( diluted RO-59). It's magical mystery liquid, indeed.

wellington1869 · « **Reply #20 on:** Wed, 11 February 2009, 00:00:08 »

Quote from: sandy55;21394

If you think about stem swapping, it won't help to solve your problem.
If you think about swapping key modules ( de-soldering/soldering ), then I would like to recommend you to use Oranges on AEK or AEKII without square *s* at the lower right corner in a bottom label rather than blacks on DELL AT101W. These are all tactile/non-click anyway.
If you need clicking sound, you can get faint clicking sound with wellingtons method.
Why Oranges?......Because those boards are cheap

I do not use silicone grease around stems and inner walls except M's BS.
Instead, I use SmoothAide ( diluted RO-59). It's magical mystery liquid, indeed.

sandy, do you know off-hand if real-simplified switch would fit where bigfoot switch used to be? (are the pinouts the same or similar?) (I want to remove the bigfoots in the dell at101w and put in the r-s's from the tp2...) thanks...

bhtooefr · « **Reply #21 on:** Wed, 11 February 2009, 00:03:22 »

The bigfoots have the same pinout as the XMs, see billm's bigfoot-on-Filco mod... I highly doubt Alps would've changed the pinout on simplified, and then the cloners go back to the old pinout...

wellington1869 · « **Reply #22 on:** Wed, 11 February 2009, 00:09:08 »

Quote from: bhtooefr;21409

The bigfoots have the same pinout as the XMs, see billm's bigfoot-on-Filco mod... I highly doubt Alps would've changed the pinout on simplified, and then the cloners go back to the old pinout...

i hope you're right. I *really* want those r-s's in the dell

sandy55 · « **Reply #23 on:** Wed, 11 February 2009, 01:53:06 »

pinouts of all "Bgofoot" class switches are same.
If not, I didn't recommend module swapping to Billm and I didn't do this mod ( after you examine pictures of switches, then move to part II .
This board was originally equipped with XM type switches.

BTW, i would like to know which type of switches are on lal's CSK-2101.

wellington1869 · « **Reply #24 on:** Wed, 11 February 2009, 05:51:36 »

Quote from: sandy55;21414

pinouts of all "Bgofoot" class switches are same.
If not, I didn't recommend module swapping to Billm and I didn't do this mod ( after you examine pictures of switches, then move to part II .
This board was originally equipped with XM type switches.

BTW, i would like to know which type of switches are on lal's CSK-2101.

so does real-simplified count as 'bigfoot class'? I guess they do if the links are showing r-s replacing bigfoot... I'll have to translate the page...

sandy55 · « **Reply #25 on:** Wed, 11 February 2009, 10:00:01 »

Quote from: wellington1869;21419

so does real-simplified count as 'bigfoot class'?

According to wiki in this forum, yes.
They are counterfeit products of genuine *Bigfoot class* ALPS switches.
What makes situation complicated is that Foward, joint venture company of ALPS, made simplified version with ALPS logo which you call *real simplified alps* and is used on your Matias TP2.

I do not recommend to re-use any flavor of simplified or fakes.
Once you de-solder non-genuine alps ( with excessive heat ), switching plates may loosely sit within a switch module. It may cause unreliable actuation.
You may notice when you do it.

If you like those switches, I think you'd better to use the board as it is. Ghosting issue may not occur in actual usage. I don't think you need to type n, c, e, together or k, i, l, together when typing and editing text or managing spread sheets.

lal · « **Reply #26 on:** Wed, 11 February 2009, 11:20:59 »

Quote from: sandy55;21414

BTW, i would like to know which type of switches are on lal's CSK-2101.

I took the chance for an introduction I'd been planning for quite some time.

bigpook · « **Reply #27 on:** Wed, 11 February 2009, 12:50:15 »

Quote from: sandy55;21394

If you think about stem swapping, it won't help to solve your problem.
If you think about swapping key modules ( de-soldering/soldering ), then I would like to recommend you to use Oranges on AEK or AEKII without square *s* at the lower right corner in a bottom label rather than blacks on DELL AT101W. These are all tactile/non-click anyway.
If you need clicking sound, you can get faint clicking sound with wellingtons method.
Why Oranges?......Because those boards are cheap

I do not use silicone grease around stems and inner walls except M's BS.
Instead, I use SmoothAide ( diluted RO-59). It's magical mystery liquid, indeed.

Sandy

would the Oranges be these?
check it

wellington1869 · « **Reply #28 on:** Wed, 11 February 2009, 13:18:52 »

Quote from: sandy55;21426

joint venture company of ALPS, made simplified version with ALPS logo which you call *real simplified alps* and is used on your Matias TP2.

come to think of of it, I dont think the switches on the tp2 actually say 'alps' on them... so they must be the clones.

Quote

I do not recommend to re-use any flavor of simplified or fakes.
Once you de-solder non-genuine alps ( with excessive heat ), switching plates may loosely sit within a switch module. It may cause unreliable actuation.
You may notice when you do it.

I'd love to just swap the whole board (and save myself the trouble of soldering), but I may not have a choice tho but to try (see below).

Quote

If you like those switches, I think you'd better to use the board as it is. Ghosting issue may not occur in actual usage. I don't think you need to type n, c, e, together or k, i, l, together when typing and editing text or managing spread sheets.

in this case (unlike the das), the ghosting occurs in ordinary typing very frequently. 'n,c,e' for instance appears in a lot of ordinary words (for ex, differeNCE, confereNCE, siNCE, etc). k,i,l occurs in a lot of words too (kill, kilogram, etc). And unlike the das, this problem appears at ordinary typing speed (I type around 80-100 wpm which isnt all that fast). So it is something I have to address...

wellington1869 · « **Reply #29 on:** Wed, 11 February 2009, 13:20:12 »

I wonder if there's a way to swap the controller on the tp2... is this something where, for instance, if I were to acquire a tp1 or a tp3, maybe I could unsolder the controller chip on the tp2 and plug in the good one. That would be ideal if its possible...

sandy55 · « **Reply #30 on:** Thu, 12 February 2009, 09:25:10 »

Quote from: wellington1869;21449

in this case (unlike the das), the ghosting occurs in ordinary typing very frequently. 'n,c,e' for instance appears in a lot of ordinary words (for ex, differeNCE, confereNCE, siNCE, etc). k,i,l occurs in a lot of words too (kill, kilogram, etc). ....

Well then, the controller may be crappy. I thought ghosting occurs only when you type those keys all together at once.

wellington1869 · « **Reply #31 on:** Thu, 12 February 2009, 14:15:23 »

Quote from: sandy55;21532

Well then, the controller may be crappy. I thought ghosting occurs only when you type those keys all together at once.

i wonder if it just needs a faster clock...

sandy55 · « **Reply #32 on:** Thu, 12 February 2009, 16:31:14 »

Have you tried changing of ( something like ) Key Repeat Rate in BIOS setting?

bigpook · « **Reply #33 on:** Thu, 12 February 2009, 19:52:46 »

It took me about 5 hours but I went ahead and removed the white xm switches from the filco mini and put in the black alps I had from the NIB Dell AT101W. It was relatively easy removing the white xm switches from the filco but more of a pain on the Dell.
The black alps on the Dell have the pins bent, so after removing the solder I had to straighten them out a bit in order to remove them. Its tedious work and not something I want to do again anytime soon.

I am using the modified filco as I type this and prefer the black alps over the white xm switches. They are light and remind me of the blue cherries in a way but don't have the click sound. I do get some noise from bottoming out though, overall its very pleasant to type on.

Chloe · « **Reply #34 on:** Thu, 12 February 2009, 20:00:15 »

It is tedious. I found the pins on real ALPS much harder to bend. You shouldn't have to replace switches for a long time though.

sandy55 · « **Reply #35 on:** Thu, 12 February 2009, 20:59:18 »

Quote from: bigpook;21445

would the Oranges be these?
check it

Sorry bigpook, overlooked your question.

Most of AEK( M0115 ) has oranges. you may happen to have Pink with it.
Very few of ALPS version AEKII( M3501) has Pink ALPSs.

wellington1869 · « **Reply #36 on:** Fri, 13 February 2009, 02:34:03 »

Quote from: sandy55;21575

Have you tried changing of ( something like ) Key Repeat Rate in BIOS setting?

I dont know that i have that in bios... i could try the windows setting I suppose. Matias' official response was to use sticky keys; of course i'm not on a mac so that doesnt help me one bit (and I dont think its a real solution for mac users either! I'm getting ghost characters when typing regularly, not when using option or command keys. So basically it doesnt sound like they have a solution at all (except for an exchange but then i lose my beloved real-simplified alps).

wellington1869 · « **Reply #37 on:** Fri, 13 February 2009, 02:36:40 »

Quote

It was relatively easy removing the white xm switches from the filco but more of a pain on the Dell.The black alps on the Dell have the pins bent, so after removing the solder I had to straighten them out a bit in order to remove them. Its tedious work and not something I want to do again anytime soon.

thats a pity; i'll be doing that same thing on my dell too. not looking forward to it.

did you use a screwdriver to lift the bent pins up? or a needlenose?
(also, I dont suppose this is something coldheat would work on?

)

so now you have a pile of unsoldered XM switches huh?

I"m sure someone would like to buy them!

Quote

I do get some noise from bottoming out though, overall its very pleasant to type on

so the pinout was the same, thats good.

wellington1869 · « **Reply #38 on:** Fri, 13 February 2009, 03:02:43 »

Quote from: sandy55;21414

pinouts of all "Bgofoot" class switches are same.
If not, I didn't recommend module swapping to Billm and I didn't do this mod ( after you examine pictures of switches, then move to part II .
This board was originally equipped with XM type switches.

BTW, i would like to know which type of switches are on lal's CSK-2101.

sandy thanks again for these great links. definitely helpful.

It looks like I'll give this a shot soon.

I dont suppose you have any secret inside information about the controller chip in the tp2 (and if its drop-in replaceable from the tp1)?

sandy55 · « **Reply #39 on:** Fri, 13 February 2009, 06:37:42 »

Quote from: wellington1869;21613

I dont suppose you have any secret inside information about the controller chip in the tp2 (and if its drop-in replaceable from the tp1)?

No, I don't. As I wrote earlier somewhere in this forum, I'm ignorant in coding or programing. Also I don't have Matias tp1/2 nor Strongmans SMK models.

wellington1869 · « **Reply #40 on:** Fri, 13 February 2009, 13:53:38 »

Quote from: sandy55;21618

No, I don't. As I wrote earlier somewhere in this forum, I'm ignorant in coding or programing. Also I don't have Matias tp1/2 nor Strongmans SMK models.

guess i'll have to experiment then

Thanks

cmr · « **Reply #41 on:** Tue, 14 April 2009, 21:03:55 »

i pulled all the keys on my AEKII over the weekend and put a small drop of hoppe's no. 9 gun oil on each plunger. i wasn't really up for disassembling all the switches so i wanted something free-flowing that wouldn't attract much dust or grime, and the gun oil fit the bill. a few days later the oil has worked its way into the switches and they actuate much more smoothly (and quietly) now.

itlnstln · « **Reply #42 on:** Wed, 15 April 2009, 07:09:40 »

I used to work with a guy named Gene Hoppe that used to also work in a gun store. I wonder if he struck it rich selling gun oil. He was a great guy; I hope he is doing well.

cmr · « **Reply #43 on:** Wed, 15 April 2009, 19:19:37 »

seems to be a coincidence; this hoppe's was founded by a frank a. hoppe in 1903.

itlnstln · « **Reply #44 on:** Thu, 16 April 2009, 06:59:31 »

Quote from: cmr;85829

seems to be a coincidence; this hoppe's was founded by a frank a. hoppe in 1903.

Thanks! I didn't want to go researching about guns while I was at work.

cmr · « **Reply #45 on:** Sat, 25 April 2009, 15:19:56 »

the lubricated alps switches are still going strong. the actuation force is low enough that i can hit 100wpm on the AEKII now; before i was only able to do 80 or 90.

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Author Topic: greasing the white xm switch (Read 24152 times)